Ways to help people integrate into the community (originally about mentor program idea scrapped)

[FaithlessZealot.9254]

One thing that bothers me is that the Mentor tag (Apple) basically means sod all in terms of community recognition. Most people use it as a tag to highlight when events are occurring because they cannot afford the Commander tag (which no judgement it is a lot and took me a while to get). As a result, they tend to get ignored in map chat while Commanders are listened to 9 times out of 10. I feel this is due to the fact that they weren't created for this purpose and instead were created to be actual mentors to guide new players through the complexities of this game. Looking for guilds can be time-consuming when you are trying to find the perfect guild to throw your life away with on this game playing into the wee hours of the morning and as such if you are going to be spending a lot of time with them you wanna be absolutely sure these are people you get on with. Having legitimate mentors could expedite this process as many new players can be recruited from the mentor program into guilds forming stronger bonds and communities. What I propose is the mentor tag be removed as a mastery reward and instead given to players via a mentor rewards program which to add incentive can offer unique cosmetics for attaining mentee satisfaction much like how the sprout system works in FF14. What replaces the original mastery tag could be a 'Captain' tag where they can lead 10-man squads and tag up much like a Commander but aren't afforded the same level of permissions. If they do group up with a Commander they can act as squad leaders within the individual sub-groups of a 50-man squad which can help immensely with coordinating things such as Dragon's End which requires a lot of cooperation and teamwork. To make things less confusing if Captains are part of a 50-man squad then their tags are only visible to members within that group however, Captains who are leading their own groups can still have their tags visible to everyone on the map.

 

I think having mentors actually be mentors which are sorely needed in a complex game such as Guild Wars 2 where there are many mechanics to understand and can be very confusing for a new player on where to go when they first start. Even if you aren't persuaded by that argument then the much stronger argument is that it gives people an incentive to socialise and actually be welcomed into the community as many of us (myself included) struggle with social interaction to actually have a formal way of being introduced to the game by a vetted veteran of the community would arguably serve to retain players for the longer haul especially since the new expansion is about to release soon.

 

Update: Since people are concerned about this system being gamified this is the one-stop method to prevent that entirely. How it would work is that when you tag up as a mentor you join a special chat channel called "Mentor Chat" where your name will have "Mentor" next to it. Players can then opt into this chat as 'Mentees' via a Help UI button which also contains areas to visit the knowledge base and to create support tickets for other issues that don't involve strictly gameplay. When they click this button they'll join this chat and can leave this chat anytime by clicking the button. The only way to earn points towards these cosmetics is by being active in this chat much like how channel points are earnt on Twitch by being active within the stream. The only way you could gamify this system is by spamming the chat which is already against ToS of the game and would result in you getting muted, banned or barred from being a mentor much like spamming in map chat would result in the same thing. That way even if the chat goes "off-topic" it doesn't matter because ultimately it will form relationships with people and they'll be more willing to stick around since they'll know people who play and will likely continue to ask questions about the game so it works.

 

Update: Upon further reading I think perhaps maybe a guild finder tool or some sort of place where newcomers or returning players could be introduced or reintroduced to a community like a welcome area would be a better idea. I'm not the biggest fan of map chat or really group chats in general even posting on here I feel anxious about but I love the game and want to play it more and I know that every time I've had the biggest desire to play is when I had a group of people I was comfortable with to play with. Thoughts?

Edited July 18, 2023 by FaithlessZealot.9254
Change of topic

[FaithlessZealot.9254]

 I saw this post and upon further research, I want to strictly say this wouldn't be a way to get or farm 'gold'. I think FFXIV is proof positive of how a system like this can and does work and I would encourage Anet to look to them for guidance with how this can be implemented. I again still VERY rarely see mentors actually be mentors as the role would imply and I've been playing since HoT. This system would be entirely opt-in but, will be advertised to new players so they are aware it's an option as much as guilds can offer these services and it's good that they do I know many that either don't want to be in a guild and rather just have a handful of friends they play with or struggle to find the right type of guild that matches their playstyle or personality. Also, like to reiterate that I wouldn't want a rating system either if the mentor is being toxic they should be subject to the same player report system as everyone else.

Edited July 18, 2023 by FaithlessZealot.9254
Clarity

[kharmin.7683]

If you read through that thread you will probably note the many posts opposed to any mentor-incentive program, and with good reason.  It would be ripe for abuse.

[FaithlessZealot.9254]

36 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

If you read through that thread you will probably note the many posts opposed to any mentor-incentive program, and with good reason.  It would be ripe for abuse.

I did read through the thread and my suggestion doesn't include the suggestions of the OP which I agree were bad I think I argued it better than he did. No rating system, No gold incentive, Already worked for another MMO far more popular than GW2...  I avoided all the traps he ran into and even if this system is abused who cares? I feel enough people would use it as intended than abuse it in general and every single system in the game is open to abuse from raiding to fractals to metas. It's not a very strong argument and also, why does it work so well for Final Fantasy? What is so unique about that game where a mentor incentive system works there and it would never work here especially when famous content creators like Zepla have praised it as being very well done.

 

Update: I did add a part where it cannot really be abused unless you want to risk your account because I worked it into the rules that the game already has. So I've managed to sidestep your argument entirely.

Edited July 18, 2023 by FaithlessZealot.9254
Clarity

[Infinity.2876]

I agree that mentor tags should be about "mentoring" however there should also be a "I need help with this achievement" tag that you can use to call people from the map to help you with difficult events that not many people do regularly. This was immensely helpful for doing the events for both griffon and skyscale.

To get the Mentoring tag you would get it from a birthday gift because if you have been around for a long time you have a lot of experience.

To get the I need help tag it would be the same as getting the current "mentor tag"

[FaithlessZealot.9254]

4 minutes ago, Infinity.2876 said:

I agree that mentor tags should be about "mentoring" however there should also be a "I need help with this achievement" tag that you can use to call people from the map to help you with difficult events that not many people do regularly. This was immensely helpful for doing the events for both griffon and skyscale.

To get the Mentoring tag you would get it from a birthday gift because if you have been around for a long time you have a lot of experience.

To get the I need help tag it would be the same as getting the current "mentor tag"

If mentoring is so unpopular then the only other thing is to just remove the tag entirely. Because it doesn't do anything and I've played long enough to know that no one cares what mentors have to say in-game. Most events where mentors do tag for it fail as a result

[Infinity.2876]

1 minute ago, FaithlessZealot.9254 said:

If mentoring is so unpopular then the only other thing is to just remove the tag entirely. Because it doesn't do anything and I've played long enough to know that no one cares what mentors have to say in-game. Most events where mentors do tag for it fail as a result

While it is true that that mentors in chat are mostly ignored, my friend has used it successfully to gether 2-4 other players for events which has made the difference between victory and defeat on multiple occasions. What I said in the early post was that mentor tags have 2 different uses: mentoring and gathering players. If they were separated into 2 different tags, then it would streamline what the tags were used for.

[Dibit.6259]

Also have to consider how many people would be willing to take on this role. I have seen mentor tags advertise on map chat to whisper them to ask questions etc but this is rarely seen. And mentor tags have proven to be useful as "becons" for events, jumping puzzles etc. To actually mentor someone takes a lot of time and effort which most of the player base either want to do or can't. Guilds, forums, guides and even people in map chat have proven to be best source of help in the game it's mostly about knowing where to find information/ask that can be an issue.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Dibit.6259
Typo

[FaithlessZealot.9254]

9 minutes ago, Dibit.6259 said:

Also have to consider how many people would be willing to take on this role. I have seen mentor tags advertise on map chat to whisper them to ask questions etc but this is rarely seen. And mentor tags have proven to be useful as "becons" for events, jumping puzzles etc. To actually mentor someone takes a lot of time and effort which most of the player base either want to do or can't. Guilds, forums, guides and even people in map chat have proven to be best source of help in the game it's mostly about knowing where to find information/ask that can be an issue.

Guess depends on when I'm on cos most time I just see spam or political debate in map chat and I've been having trouble finding the right guild for me and honestly if this wasn't a topic I'm passionate about I wouldn't really use the forums either as I don't like forums generally. So if you want them to be beacons for events then just rename them to Captains and get rid of mentors entirely see my OP for more info.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

I used to lead drizwood meta as mentor tag when i was new (1-2 months of gaming), ppl where confused and first, but after thay noticed i lead well (x2 5 chests in row), and caryy thay butt, even after someone taged up, ppl followed my command on map chat, and followed me insted of commander

 

If you do stuff right, and ingore confused ppl showing a confidnece in what you do, the symbol over your head not matter as much

 

What i lerned is most  ppl have commander tag,  if you ask someone tag for you and give you  officer, you can mark yourself with ctrl+shift+3 so you will have heart over your head

 

About mentor think, you can just ask in lion arch your question, or " hello i'm new engineer, can someone show me a trick or two on holosmith" ?

Thats how one person showed me stuff once, and picked what flavor of holosmith suit my playstyle best

He was CM fractal Holo, and i learned alot from that person 😄

 

You can solve most your problems, by politely asking

Edited July 18, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Sobx.1758]

I don't see a reason to implement anything like that when plenty of people already help new players anyways. The system you're proposing isn't really made for people who want to help, it's made for people who want to get rewards.

 

4 hours ago, FaithlessZealot.9254 said:

The only way you could gamify this system is by spamming the chat which is already against ToS of the game and would result in you getting muted, banned or barred from being a mentor much like spamming in map chat would result in the same thing. That way even if the chat goes "off-topic" it doesn't matter because ultimately it will form relationships with people and they'll be more willing to stick around since they'll know people who play and will likely continue to ask questions about the game so it works.

The update of this idea just makes it... a map chat with rewards for typing in it.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[StarPT.7431]

You get a mentor tag so early in the game...when I had mine I did not know jack kitten about the game xD

[FaithlessZealot.9254]

35 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I don't see a reason to implement anything like that when plenty of people already help new players anyways. The system you're proposing isn't really made for people who want to help, it's made for people who want to get rewards.

 

The update of this idea just makes it... a map chat with rewards for typing in it.

I don't see the issue with that giving people incentive to be social rather than type random political drama in lion's arch I still want to know why it works so well in Final Fantasy XIV?

Edited July 18, 2023 by FaithlessZealot.9254

[FaithlessZealot.9254]

47 minutes ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

I used to lead drizwood meta as mentor tag when i was new (1-2 months of gaming), ppl where confused and first, but after thay noticed i lead well (x2 5 chests in row), and caryy thay butt, even after someone taged up, ppl followed my command on map chat, and followed me insted of commander

 

If you do stuff right, and ingore confused ppl showing a confidnece in what you do, the symbol over your head not matter as much

 

What i lerned is most  ppl have commander tag,  if you ask someone tag for you and give you  officer, you can mark yourself with ctrl+shift+3 so you will have heart over your head

 

About mentor think, you can just ask in lion arch your question, or " hello i'm new engineer, can someone show me a trick or two on holosmith" ?

Thats how one person showed me stuff once, and picked what flavor of holosmith suit my playstyle best

He was CM fractal Holo, and i learned alot from that person 😄

 

You can solve most your problems, by politely asking

I'm on US and everytime I'm in LA i just see arguments and s-posting honestly. I wanna know what time of day I should be playing to find all these cool people I apparently keep missing out on

Edited July 18, 2023 by FaithlessZealot.9254

[Sobx.1758]

8 minutes ago, FaithlessZealot.9254 said:

I don't see the issue with that giving people incentive to be social rather than type random political drama in lion's arch I still want to know why it works so well in Final Fantasy XIV?

People are social anyways. People are helping anyways. If your only response here is "but FF has it!" then I guess you should have no issues accepting "but GW2 doesn't have it and it's doing well in that area too" as an answer to that. Seriously, considering people talk and help in map chats anyways, it seems like you're not even trying to solve any problem here.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[FaithlessZealot.9254]

15 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

People are social anyways. People are helping anyways. If your only response here is "but FF has it!" then I guess you should have no issues accepting "but GW2 doesn't have it and it's doing well in that area too" as an answer to that. Seriously, considering people talk and help in map chats anyways, it seems like you're not even trying to solve any problem here.

Yeah but why though? I'm curious and Google doesn't really come up with any real results I heard streamers talk good things about it. I'm willing to concede and say mentor is a terrible idea and the fact it's still in the game is baffling and should be removed entirely since I mean like you said we already have it unofficially. I'm not really married to the idea but, I still feel it's difficult to engage with or get involved with the community so what do you propose people like myself do? I've guild hunted for a long time and never really found one I gelled with or is playing at times that I am playing.

I mean this sincerely with no means to be horrible whatsoever cos I used to have a group I play with but now I struggle to fit in and find it difficult to reach out to strangers in game and I don't think I'm alone. The problem I want to solve is why a Mentor tag is even a thing and what could be done to make it better if you are in fact right and nothing can be done then remove it I'm happy either way and I'll try to work on myself to the point I feel more comfortable reaching out to people I guess.

Edited July 18, 2023 by FaithlessZealot.9254

[Noah Salazar.5430]

28 minutes ago, FaithlessZealot.9254 said:

I'm on US and everytime I'm in LA i just see arguments and s-posting honestly. I wanna know what time of day I should be playing to find all these cool people I apparently keep missing out on

I'm on Eu

Edited July 18, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[FaithlessZealot.9254]

Just now, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

I'm in Eu

I'd be curious to see the differences between NA and EU in terms of community engagement. I'm not saying Lion's Arch on US is always bad as I claim even though I probably made it sound like that sorry. I just really want to play this game when the expansion comes out and I'm worried I won't be able to find anyone so I'm just trying to figure out what I could suggest that may make it easier for more awkward people such as myself to engage with the community?

[Sobx.1758]

17 minutes ago, FaithlessZealot.9254 said:

Yeah but why though? I'm curious and Google doesn't really come up with any real results I heard streamers talk good things about it. I'm willing to concede and say mentor is a terrible idea and the fact it's still in the game is baffling and should be removed entirely since I mean like you said we already have it unofficially. I'm not really married to the idea but, I still feel it's difficult to engage with or get involved with the community so what do you propose people like myself do? I've guild hunted for a long time and never really found one I gelled with or is playing at times that I am playing.

I mean this sincerely with no means to be horrible whatsoever cos I used to have a group I play with but now I struggle to fit in and find it difficult to reach out to strangers in game and I don't think I'm alone. The problem I want to solve is why a Mentor tag is even a thing and what could be done to make it better if you are in fact right and nothing can be done then remove it I'm happy either way and I'll try to work on myself to the point I feel more comfortable reaching out to people I guess.

You want change, apparently to solve some problem here. But WHAT is the problem you're trying to solve exactly?
"people would talk and help"? -They already do. 
"ok, so if people already talk and help then remove mentor tag entirely" -but, again, why? What is this solving? As you noted in your initial post, even in the current iteration mentor tag itself has use within the community. Just because it's not strictly limited/related to "teaching players" doesn't mean it suddenly needs to be removed, does it?

Note that "why is mentor tag even a thing?" isn't a description of a problem, it's a question. And it's a question you at least partially responded right in the first post of this thread:

5 hours ago, FaithlessZealot.9254 said:

Most people use it as a tag to highlight when events are occurring because they cannot afford the Commander tag (which no judgement it is a lot and took me a while to get).

Edited July 18, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Noah Salazar.5430]

17 minutes ago, FaithlessZealot.9254 said:

I'd be curious to see the differences between NA and EU in terms of community engagement. I'm not saying Lion's Arch on US is always bad as I claim even though I probably made it sound like that sorry. I just really want to play this game when the expansion comes out and I'm worried I won't be able to find anyone so I'm just trying to figure out what I could suggest that may make it easier for more awkward people such as myself to engage with the community?

In Eu you have less lfg, cuz ppl play as guild/static more often, it's  easier to find raid trenings as basic guilds attemps to do it, we have more of fammily mentality to stic and play togheeter a one guild, racher then hoping to 5, it's also easier to find help cuz of it, as ppl see you as potential new family member

 

You can notice it in world map lfg, wher most lfg put's guild tag to it

 

From what i noticed Na,  have more of pug aproch like puting ip on map lfg, and other solutions, wher you ghater as multiple ppl, racher then one-two guilds

Edited July 18, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Sobx.1758]

9 minutes ago, FaithlessZealot.9254 said:

I just really want to play this game when the expansion comes out and I'm worried I won't be able to find anyone so I'm just trying to figure out what I could suggest that may make it easier for more awkward people such as myself to engage with the community?

If you struggle to use lfg and/or map chat, I'm not sure how basically renaming the chat would somehow change anything about it? You'd still need to press the same keys to talk to people.

[FaithlessZealot.9254]

9 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You want change, apparently to solve some problem here. But WHAT is the problem you're trying to solve exactly?
"people would talk and help"? -They already do. 
"ok, so if people already talk and help then remove mentor tag entirely" -but, again, why? What is this solving? As you noted in your initial post, even in the current iteration mentor tag itself has use within the community. Just because it's not strictly limited/related to "teaching players" doesn't mean it suddenly needs to be removed, does it?

Note that "why is mentor tag even a thing?" isn't a description of a problem, it's a question. And it's a question you at least partially responded right in the first post of this thread:

I'll admit and be honest today probably wasn't the best to make this post I'm not in the right headspace however, I guess the problem I was trying to solve is two-fold an ability to integrate into the community easier since I've been having a hard time for years and it's why I quit multiple times cos the time I played the most was when I had people to play with but one thing lead to another and I'm no longer playing with them. Also, to make mentor be seen as less of a meme because at least to me every time I see people mentor tag up they are just ignored a lot it's based on observation and unless there's data on this which I'm not sure if there is I'd be happy to be proven wrong. The former point I could come back to and maybe think up ways which could help people get into the game easier.

Again I'm willing to admit defeat here and say I may have not thought this through entirely so would a guild finder tool help people like me or some sort of returning player hub where people can hang out? Because I'll concede and say you're right renaming map chat wouldn't help cos I'll admit I'd be just as nervous talking there as I am talking on map most of the time.

Edited July 18, 2023 by FaithlessZealot.9254

[Sobx.1758]

13 minutes ago, FaithlessZealot.9254 said:

I'll admit and be honest today probably wasn't the best to make this post I'm not in the right headspace however, I guess the problem I was trying to solve is two-fold an ability to integrate into the community easier since I've been having a hard time for years and it's why I quit multiple times cos the time I played the most was when I had people to play with but one thing lead to another and I'm no longer playing with them. Also, to make mentor be seen as less of a meme because at least to me every time I see people mentor tag up they are just ignored a lot it's based on observation and unless there's data on this which I'm not sure if there is I'd be happy to be proven wrong. The former point I could come back to and maybe think up ways which could help people get into the game easier.

Again I'm willing to admit defeat here and say I may have not thought this through entirely so would a guild finder tool help people like me or some sort of returning player hub where people can hang out? Because I'll concede and say you're right renaming map chat wouldn't help cos I'll admit I'd be just as nervous talking there as I am talking on map most of the time.

Yeah, I also think finding a guild "relevant to the content of your interest" would be a better solution here. As far as I know these can help you find some:
-in lfg, sometimes there are guilds recruiting in "guild tab"
-https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/forum/30-looking-for-guild/
-and a site I recently learned about (accidentally, through map chat 😉) https://gw2.guildex.org/guilds/na (try using filters)

Edited July 18, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[FaithlessZealot.9254]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yeah, I also think finding a guild "relevant to the content of your interest" would be a better solution here. As far as I know these can help you find some:
-in lfg, sometimes there are guilds recruiting in "guild tab"
-https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/forum/30-looking-for-guild/
-and a site I recently learned about (accidentally, through map chat 😉) https://gw2.guildex.org/guilds/na

I'll try I appreciate you being patient with me. I probably made myself look like a complete tit here so I'm feeling a bit awkward but I do often find it difficult to express myself. I also think that maybe my standards for finding "The Perfect Guild" are a little too high cos been trying for a couple of years and haven't found any that really suited me well.

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, FaithlessZealot.9254 said:

I'm on US and everytime I'm in LA i just see arguments and s-posting honestly. I wanna know what time of day I should be playing to find all these cool people I apparently keep missing out on

Don't hang out in LA.  Try DR.