It is unbearable

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Treacy.4067 said:

Your words are in black and white. You said that player feedback doesn't factor in and that things are fine because Anet says so. This is a bad argument.

Yes, my words are there for everyone to see. No, that's not what I said. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that's not what I said. 

I literally just quoted you two comments above.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Treacy.4067 said:

I literally just quoted you two comments above.

Right ... and in none of those quotes did I say  to dismiss a large portion of the player base and their feedback just because a gaming company says things are fine. That's simply NOT something I said. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... and in none of those quotes did I say  to dismiss a large portion of the player base and their feedback just because a gaming company says things are fine.

I don't fall for the bait and switch when people are losing an argument. You said what you said. ""The fact is that players opinions do not determine if something is in a good place."   and you said it has no bearing on whether it's in a good place or not.

[Guy.9207]

Hate to break it to yall but.

The reign of Arc Divider is over.

Long Live the Skull Grinder.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Treacy.4067 said:

lol, this person is really doubling down. Maybe they're forgetting what they previously said or something idk.

Just. Stop. It. It's not worth the time, sanity and money spent on electricity that you lose on it.

[Guy.9207]

Thinking about it...I find it funny that guard can pull some numbers using gs2 while warrior has to go through his rage mode to do the same thing....and now you can't do that anymore, at least not aesthetically. Really makes you think huh?

[Obtena.7952]

21 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said:

I don't fall for the bait and switch when people are losing an argument. You said what you said. ""The fact is that players opinions do not determine if something is in a good place."   and you said it has no bearing on whether it's in a good place or not.

Except there isn't an argument to lose here. What I said there is not the same as someone saying to dismiss a large portion of the player base and their feedback just because a gaming company says things are fine.

Whether Anet uses players opinions to determine if a class is in a good place or not is NOT the same thing as saying player opinions should be dismissed because Anet likes the current state of the class. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Except there isn't an argument to lose here. What I said there is not the same as someone saying to dismiss a large portion of the player base and their feedback just because a gaming company says things are fine.

Whether Anet uses players opinions to determine if a class is in a good place or not is NOT the same thing as saying player opinions should be dismissed because Anet likes the current state of the class. 

Your argument that a company saying things are great means they are and that any player feedback doesn't factor in to it is illogical. That's the one you lost I'm saying.

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said:

Your argument that a company saying things are great means they are and that any player feedback doesn't factor in to it is illogical. 

Again, there is no argument here. I'm simply describing the fact that Anet has a process to determine if classes are in a good place, that has measureable criteria. That's not based on random opinions. That process measures the game. 

Also,  I said that player opinions do not determine what is good place. They can't because opinions vary. They literally CAN'T be a n objective determining factor for what a good place is for any class. 

There is no room for having an argument here. It's how it works. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, there is no argument here. I'm simply describing the fact that Anet has a process to determine if classes are in a good place, that has measureable criteria. That's not based on random opinions. That process measures the game. 

Also,  I said that player opinions do not determine what is good place. They can't because opinions vary. They literally CAN'T be a n objective determining factor for what a good place is for any class. 

When you say that in response to people talking about feedback not being heard and complaining about issues,  that's problematic and why it doesn't make sense.

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said:

When you say that in response to people talking about feedback not being heard and complaining about issues,  that's problematic and why it doesn't make sense.

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I didn't make a response to 'those saying they felt their feedback wasn't listened to' with any intent to 'simply wave those people off by saying Anet decides what's in a good place' to begin with. What I DID do what describe the process Anet is using to determine if a class is in a good place because it's pretty apparent many people have some very unreasonable expectations about how the game should work based on how they think it should work and not based on the criteria that Anet has for that. 

See, we already went over this ... Sure, in the context you are thinking of, it's a problem. I already told you it wasn't in that context. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

I didn't make a response to 'those saying they felt their feedback wasn't listened to' with any intent to 'simply wave those people off by saying Anet decides what's in a good place' to begin with. What I DID do what describe the process Anet is using to determine if a class is in a good place because it's pretty apparent many people have some very unreasonable expectations about how the game should work based on how they think it should work and not based on the criteria that Anet has for that. 

It's in your initial comments I have repeatedly quoted you over and over again. Why do you keep making me repost what you said?

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Treacy.4067 said:

It's in your initial comments I have repeatedly quoted you over and over again. Why do you keep making me repost what you said?

That doesn't make sense. my initial comments were not a specific reply to  'those saying they felt their feedback wasn't listened to' 

That's simply the context you want to frame it to justify your issues with what I said. 

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. my initial comments were not a specific reply to  'those saying they felt their feedback wasn't listened to' 

That's simply the context you want to frame it to justify your issues with what I said. 

What doesn't make sense is your initial argument, the only one I actually was here to discuss but you keep trying to change the subject.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Treacy.4067 said:

What doesn't make sense is your initial argument, the only one I actually was here to discuss but you keep trying to change the subject.

Because there isn't an argument to be had about a description of the process Anet has told us they use to make class changes. 

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Because there isn't an argument to be had about a description of the process Anet has told us they use to make class changes. 

 And like I said from the start, that process is irrelevant to what the others were saying. It's a bad premise.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, there is no argument here. I'm simply describing the fact that Anet has a process to determine if classes are in a good place, that has measureable criteria. That's not based on random opinions. That process measures the game. 

Also,  I said that player opinions do not determine what is good place. They can't because opinions vary. They literally CAN'T be a n objective determining factor for what a good place is for any class. 

There is no room for having an argument here. It's how it works. 

There is room, because we have literally seen the feedback about these things having an influence on what ANet does with balance and changes to classes. Take for instance their stint of when they tried to create "trade offs" and then just stopped attempting to do it, without saying anything about it, which left a number of classes in a very weird and bizarre place (Warrior being a big one). ANet literally reverted those "trade off" changes they made, one of the most recent ones being Mirage getting its second dodge back and ANet finally after 6 years of this being the actual genuine problem with Mirage dodges made it so that they cannot activate Mirage Cloak while stunned or otherwise incapacitated which was the only thing they ever needed to do. Player feedback was given about that many times over that early period in PoF, it was ignored...then finally listened to, again, 6 years later. The same with making Full Counter no longer proc Burst trait effects (like Adrenal Health) when it is triggered as opposed to needing to land a hit, which was one of the biggest reasons why Spellbreaker sustain was so bloated back then; Str/Def/Spell. One of the only times Discipline wasn't used because their sustain was so overwhelming that it didn't matter.

Obtena, it really does not seem like you understand that the way you argue and push back against feedback being given looks exceptionally dismissive which is entirely disrespectful to the whole process and does not help the conversation/discussion because you derail the entire topic of feedback into a completely different place. I understand you believe that ANet has a plan or criteria, and I do too, they clearly do have ideas and criteria (they've said a little bit as much with their discussion of "power budget") but that does not mean that their criteria is infallible or that they are making the right choices in order to fulfill that criteria because player reception, perception and experience with these things is just as valuable as the data and metrics they look to.

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Just now, Treacy.4067 said:

 And like I said from the start, that process is irrelevant to what the others were saying. It's a bad premise.

You have better uses of your time, friend. 

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Treacy.4067 said:

 And like I said from the start, that process is irrelevant to what the others were saying. It's a bad premise.

Except it's not because the process is considering what people say. We know it does because Anet has adjusted changed they made in the past based on it. Just not this time. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

You have better uses of your time, friend. 

It's so strange though, it's such a simple point I made lol.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

There is room, because we have literally seen the feedback about these things having an influence on what ANet does with balance and changes to classes. Take for instance their stint of when they tried to create "trade offs" and then just stopped attempting to do it, without saying anything about it, which left a number of classes in a very weird and bizarre place (Warrior being a big one). ANet literally reverted those "trade off" changes they made, one of the most recent ones being Mirage getting its second dodge back and ANet finally after 6 years of this being the actual genuine problem with Mirage dodges made it so that they cannot activate Mirage Cloak while stunned or otherwise incapacitated which was the only thing they ever needed to do. Player feedback was given about that many times over that early period in PoF, it was ignored...then finally listened to, again, 6 years later. The same with making Full Counter no longer proc Burst trait effects (like Adrenal Health) when it is triggered as opposed to needing to land a hit, which was one of the biggest reasons why Spellbreaker sustain was so bloated back then; Str/Def/Spell. One of the only times Discipline wasn't used because their sustain was so overwhelming that it didn't matter.

Obtena, it really does not seem like you understand that the way you argue and push back against feedback being given looks exceptionally dismissive which is entirely disrespectful to the whole process and does not help the conversation/discussion because you derail the entire topic of feedback into a completely different place. I understand you believe that ANet has a plan or criteria, and I do too, they clearly do have ideas and criteria (they've said a little bit as much with their discussion of "power budget") but that does not mean that their criteria is infallible or that they are making the right choices in order to fulfill that criteria because player reception, perception and experience with these things is just as valuable as the data and metrics they look to.

 

Yes I know all this... I'm not saying people's opinions don't influence Anet's decisions to make changes. What the poster is seeming to have a problem with is the idea that I'm of the belief that Anet isn't determining the 'good place' of the classes based off of random player opinion. Those two things aren't the same ... but they seem to want to believe they have the same meaning to me. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Except it's not because the process considering what people say. We know it does because Anet has adjusted changed they made in the past based on it. Just not this time. 

Forget whether they change or don't change based on feedback for a second, the point is that you saying things are fine simply because a company hits their goals and says so is what's faulty.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

54 minutes ago, NeverLoseGuy.3894 said:

Hate to break it to yall but.

The reign of Arc Divider is over.

Long Live the Skull Grinder.

You rite but I hate it. Like always power zerk gets a month in the sun before weird balance directions shove it back into jail again.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes I know all this... I'm not saying people's opinions don't influence Anet's decisions to make changes. What the poster is seeming to have a problem with is the idea that I'm of the belief that Anet isn't determining the 'good place' of the classes based off of random player opinion. Those two things aren't the same ... but they seem to want to believe they have the same meaning to me. 

That bold and underlined portion there is precisely what they are interpreting it as, though. That is the point of misunderstanding happening between the two of you.