Stealth is not OP, you are just bad

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

11 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I firmly beleive that the mobility allows them to decap if they are bad, which still makes them feel usefull when they see that flashy little ''most aggressive'' stat at tht end. And ofc, such mobility and ability to escape people, and jump from stealth is also fun. Ultimately however, fun only gets you so far, if you just get slapped every game and have 0 impact, you woldn't play it.

How would you have thieves function instead, Flowki? Let's say they can no longer stealth. What should their role be in game? 

What would be fair?

Edited October 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[vilesoldier.9826]

14 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

How would you have thieves function instead, Flowki? Let's say they can no longer stealth. What should their role be in game? 

What would be fair?

 

Azure, you're wasting your time.

Flowki is a 12k hp power cata enjoyer as a new player. Frankly, they are too far gone.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 minutes ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

Azure, you're wasting your time.

Flowki is a 12k hp power cata enjoyer as a new player. Frankly, they are too far gone.

I have to know for sure if this is a resentment fueled wash of a topic or if there are good ideas that arent "make this class I dont like trash so I can farm them".

These classes don't take months of time to relearn, but I'd rather not if we're just going to whine about something else immediately after. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Flowki.7194]

42 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

How would you have thieves function instead, Flowki? Let's say they can no longer stealth. What should their role be in game? 

What would be fair?

I never once said thieves should not have stealth, I have no problem with the concept of it, I played wow for many years and had plenty of good fights vs rogues. The difference in that game is there was ample room for counterplays on both ends. It did go through stages where stunlocks were OP/annoying, but despite that, a good rogue was a good rogue, no questions asked, no crutch arguments, since rogues has ample and meaningful stealth counters they had to outplay.

 

Let me throw the question back at you, what universal counter/s to stealth could be implimented into gw2? and what compensatory sustain should the thief get in return (becuse they should get some). I want to enjoy fighting thieves, and I want to give them the credit they deserve for what is a high skill floor spec to get good at pvp wise (crutch to just backcap all game or escape messing up and being caught +1 stops this respect for me). Its like bladesworn, can any of us respect a blade for holding a point in a 1v1? its just a given if you can moderately abuse its bs mechanics. A thief can escape being +1d by me when he fks up, but then I can't escape being +1d by him if I fk up, thats an issue. And tbf, you don't have to fk up to get +1'd by a thief, there are plenty map locations where you are blind to that jump. I accept that deal though, since thief takes a hit in group sustain to gain that kind of strength, however.. you gotte be dying when you get royally caught out, its just too crutchy not to. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[vilesoldier.9826]

35 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

A thief can escape being +1d by me when he fks up, but then I can't escape being +1d by him if I fk up, thats an issue.

 

How is this an issue!? Wallah my head hurtssssssss

"Crutch" = "Different class capabilities" apparently

 

🤡tbh as a melee class enjoyer myself, any class that can misplay and still have the audacity to apply pressure at >900 range is an issue, and the game will be much more enjoyable without them🤡

@Azure The Heartless.3261 HELP! GET ME OUT!

Edited October 2, 2023 by vilesoldier.9826

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

27 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Let me throw the question back at you, what universal counter/s to stealth could be implimented into gw2? and what compensatory sustain should the thief get in return (becuse they should get some). I want to enjoy fighting thieves, and I want to give them the credit they deserve for what is a high skill floor spec to get good at pvp wise (crutch to just backcap all game or escape messing up and being caught +1 stops this respect for me). Its like bladesworn, can any of us respect a blade for holding a point in a 1v1? its just a given if you can moderately abuse its bs mechanics.

The question doesn't have any value for me.

I don't have a problem fighting thieves (even ones that use stealth) currently, and I enjoy fighting them. (I play power berserker predominantly, Thief is my secondary.) Because I play thief, I can pretty regularly anticipate when they'll attack, what buttons they have available, and what I need to avoid. In some cases, I can even generally tell where relative to my person they are, in stealth, because I have had experience fighting as a thief.There's only a handful of thieves that I have issue with to date, and I respect those already.

They are a high skill floor spec currently. Being able to run to a point to backcap means nothing if there's one person there who can keep you off of the point, and because they can't take 1v1s reliably this is predominantly what they need to do to be useful, so I don't consider tools that help them do that quickly to be a crutch. Because they aren't well geared for 1v1, why should they also be bad at leaving +1s? Their whole kit currently revolves around outnumbering fights or capturing uncontested points.

You and I don't see this the same way. You want it to change, I think it's fine. So you should suggest how you want it to change. I don't see any need for sweeping adjustment. If you think stealth is fine, then great. What should be done to make thieves worthy of respect to you? Being able to do your class role effectively is not a crutch. Nobody is leaving the point unguarded except your team. IF they guarded it the thief would be outweighing mid while you sat there and getting their respect points.

If you think it needs to change, what should they do instead?

Quote

what universal counter/s to stealth could be implimented into gw2? and what compensatory sustain should the thief get in return (becuse they should get some). 

It cant be both. Either you have a problem with stealth and think it's worthy of universal counters, or you don't. Do you want universal stealth counters? If so, how should thieves handle the fact that they can have their mitigation ripped from under them by any class? They have the lowest HP pool in the game, and the other two classes with that HP pool can go invulnerable. What do you want?

Edited October 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[shion.2084]

@Flowki.7194  Try playing a theif in some unranked.  Once you get a feel for the class from the other side you'll learn what you need to avoid, what they can do, and what the cooldowns are.   You could also try something like engi reveal trait on tools if your having a real problem with stealth... many theives avoid nade egis because of their ability to trait that.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

12 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

many theives avoid nade egis because of their ability to trait that.

This is absolutely true. If a holo or scrapper reveals that they have lock on traited, my priority immediately becomes not being forcibly locked in a 1v1 (or an even fight) with them. This means, if they're smart, they can push me off back-caps without having to fully commit to getting my HP low, or push me out of outnumbered situations (because their traits effectively disable my damage). To a lesser extent, this also goes for sic-em soulbeast, and the rare OMM warrior. Heralds telegraph gaze and DH telegraphs spear (now), so idc.

Quote

Try playing a theif in some unranked.  Once you get a feel for the class from the other side you'll learn what you need to avoid, what they can do, and what the cooldowns are. 

Youll also get a newfound respect with how difficult it is to not get reduced to atoms on thief by anyone that knows how to push buttons, while also doing your objective. I highly recommend you try the boots on and walk a mile or so.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

31 minutes ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

@Azure The Heartless.3261 HELP! GET ME OUT!

Long 

live

the king

[Flowki.7194]

59 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

The question doesn't have any value for me.

I don't have a problem fighting thieves (even ones that use stealth) currently, and I enjoy fighting them. (I play power berserker predominantly, Thief is my secondary.) Because I play thief, I can pretty regularly anticipate when they'll attack, what buttons they have available, and what I need to avoid. In some cases, I can even generally tell where relative to my person they are, in stealth, because I have had experience fighting as a thief.There's only a handful of thieves that I have issue with to date, and I respect those already.

They are a high skill floor spec currently. Being able to run to a point to backcap means nothing if there's one person there who can keep you off of the point, and because they can't take 1v1s reliably this is predominantly what they need to do to be useful, so I don't consider tools that help them do that quickly to be a crutch. Because they aren't well geared for 1v1, why should they also be bad at leaving +1s? Their whole kit currently revolves around outnumbering fights or capturing uncontested points.

You and I don't see this the same way. You want it to change, I think it's fine. So you should suggest how you want it to change. I don't see any need for sweeping adjustment. If you think stealth is fine, then great. What should be done to make thieves worthy of respect to you? Being able to do your class role effectively is not a crutch. Nobody is leaving the point unguarded except your team. IF they guarded it the thief would be outweighing mid while you sat there and getting their respect points.

If you think it needs to change, what should they do instead?

It cant be both. Either you have a problem with stealth and think it's worthy of universal counters, or you don't. Do you want universal stealth counters? If so, how should thieves handle the fact that they can have their mitigation ripped from under them by any class? They have the lowest HP pool in the game, and the other two classes with that HP pool can go invulnerable. What do you want?

So what you are essentially saying is I need to play thief for hundreds of hours, and be vastly more knowledgable at the game to shut down an average thief; ''Im taking dmg, not sure where or who from.. initiate get out of jail thief mobility/stealth card''. It does not take near that level of dedication and clear superior game knowledge to shut down average players of other specs when you 1v1 or +1 them, why should it for thief? it reads far too much like class bias. The only exception would be bunkers, but they are not ''hard to shut down'' in a game sense/counter type of way, they simply just won't die withought X amount of dmg done.

 

There is a universal counter for melee damage, try to get/stay out of melee range (although that can be an issue on some specs ofc). There is a universal counter for ranged damage, try to line of sight abuse (that can be an issue with location etc). There is no inherent comparison for stealth, aside from spamming hit and hope AOE or trying to time a dodge, which only really works IF they cloak up in sight, and are not exactly reliable counters even at that. 

 

You won't go near the question becuase you disagree, so really there is no point in talking about this any more.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

How is this an issue!? Wallah my head hurtssssssss

"Crutch" = "Different class capabilities" apparently

 

🤡tbh as a melee class enjoyer myself, any class that can misplay and still have the audacity to apply pressure at >900 range is an issue, and the game will be much more enjoyable without them🤡

@Azure The Heartless.3261 HELP! GET ME OUT!

 

Getting outright caught in a +1 by specs that don't have stealth, and reliably being able to escape is not a crutch? I don't care how good you are at the game, you fail at logic.

[Endo.1652]

On 9/30/2023 at 12:25 PM, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

Two ideas that could balance out stealth I feel. Either one.

1. While in stealth damage is reduced by 50% or more

2.can not target enemy while in stealth. If people can not target you because your in stealth, it should also not allow you to target players. 

Both these seem fair to me.

How do you stealth attack with death's judgement or shortbow or pistol then?

[Flowki.7194]

48 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

@Flowki.7194  Try playing a theif in some unranked.  Once you get a feel for the class from the other side you'll learn what you need to avoid, what they can do, and what the cooldowns are.   You could also try something like engi reveal trait on tools if your having a real problem with stealth... many theives avoid nade egis because of their ability to trait that.

 

Youve missed the point. Thief mobility/stealth is a crutch that lets bad thiefs get out of bad plays, while it also doubles up to let more compitant thieves attempt some very bad and risky jumps, yet get off with it if things go south. Other specs die a hell of alot more for that, being why thief is simply a low risk high reward spec. Its not risky if you have next to no chance of being caught, other than getting far too cocky.

 

It is directly comparble to pre-nerf power scepter cata. It only had some 12khp, but superspeed almost on demand + immunes meant you could do that exact same bs, low risk high reward. Thats why I didn't play meta scepter cata. It was hard to play yes, punishing for mistakes yes, but at a certain point of compitancy, you become a god, and its annoying af for people to fight. Its easier to unlock that ''not die'' potential on thief, being why a lot more of your avg thiefs are so much more annoying, and take so much more effort to shutdown than an avg cata back then, 9/10 of them were bad.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

20 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

So what you are essentially saying is I need to play thief for hundreds of hours, and be vastly more knowledgable at the game to shut down an average thief;

Nobody said that.  A few dozen hours or a couple dozen  games is plenty.  Why should knowing how your opponent fights be a dealbreaker? They're invisible.  That's useful information. 

Quote

You won't go near the question becuase you disagree, so really there is no point in talking about this any more.

I mean, in all honesty I asked you what you wanted first, and your response was to try to get me to do your argument for you then bail when I said "no". Burden of proof is on you.  I don't need to justify stealth or thief being different because I like it as is. 

If you have an idea for how it should work in a way that rewards thieves for performing, I'm all ears though. What do you want thieves to do?  Its agreed that they should be functional, right?

Quote

average thief

Average thieves don't live long enough for you to encounter them. Skill floor is high. A thief that doesn't know their buttons like the back of their hand is a liability.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[vilesoldier.9826]

20 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

Getting outright caught in a +1 by specs that don't have stealth, and reliably being able to escape is not a crutch? 

 

Flowki, my sweet summer child, it is not. In the same way a necro naturally has a second health bar, a thief naturally has more escapes than you. Bad players can use it, good players can use it too.

 

If that thief is escaping your +1 that consistently, it sounds like they weren't "GeTtInG OuTrIgHt CaUgHt". that would require attentive play that capitalizes on their lack of resources and punishes them fully, which it sounds like you did not do. If a thief used their teleport to get out, you did not punish their lack of resources, they still had teleports.

mad bc bad 😴😴😴

Edited October 2, 2023 by vilesoldier.9826

[Eddbopkins.2630]

18 minutes ago, Endorphin.9147 said:

How do you stealth attack with death's judgement or shortbow or pistol then?

There are methods to aim your attack. But when facing off against an invisible opponent there is no counter play. You have have to sit and wait for them to make a mistake. 

[Flowki.7194]

6 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Nobody said that.  A few dozen hours or a couple dozen  games is plenty.  Why should knowing how your opponent fights be a dealbreaker? They're invisible.  That's useful information. 

I mean, in all honesty I asked you what you wanted first, and your response was to try to get me to do your argument for you then bail when I said "no". Burden of proof is on you.  I don't need to justify stealth or thief being different because I like it as is. 

What do you want thieves to do?  Its agreed that they should be functional, right?

 

 

This needs to not turn into personal skill level arguments about what and how long I have played something. I have never played bladesworn, I did some reading of its mechanics and play against it, does that mean I am wrong to suggest bladesorn is way over performing for the effort input? I played some power scepter cata, and stopped, moving onto an off meta with no super speed spam, becuase its low risk. I read up on thief mechanics, and played against them, and will not play that spec at all under its current low risk game play. So thats my position.

 

Yes you are right, you asked the question first. All I did was give my position on the ethos of good counterplay between specs, which I very strongly hold the opinion of, that thief in this game badly lacks. You are more knowledgable on playing thief than me, clearly, which is why I asked what you think on the actual mechanical level would be required to make such an ethos work.

 

Personally, I want avg thieves to get punished more easily, I also want good thieves to get punished more easily for making what they out right know is bad plays on any other spec, simply becuase they know they can get off with it. It would be nice if thieves had more sustain, and less crutchy escape, so that they on average, are not pushed into these toxic playstyles, which are fun to play as, but not fun to fight. Again, wow rogue was fun to fight, I loved to hate them, but really.. very good counter players on both ends. In GW2, I simply hate thieves, and thats a shame.

[vilesoldier.9826]

Guys is it a crutch to use longbow against a melee class? 🤔

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Just now, vilesoldier.9826 said:

Guys is it a crutch to use longbow against a melee class? 🤔

Only if you're condi zerk 😭

[Flowki.7194]

1 minute ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

Guys is it a crutch to use longbow against a melee class? 🤔

 

Here, have some attention.

[vilesoldier.9826]

3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Only if you're condi zerk 😭

 

Touche

[Flowki.7194]

23 minutes ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

Flowki, my sweet summer child, it is not. In the same way a necro naturally has a second health bar, a thief naturally has more escapes than you. Bad players can use it, good players can use it too.

 

If that thief is escaping your +1 that consistently, it sounds like they weren't "GeTtInG OuTrIgHt CaUgHt". that would require attentive play that capitalizes on their lack of resources and punishes them fully, which it sounds like you did not do. If a thief used their teleport to get out, you did not punish their lack of resources, they still had teleports.

mad bc bad 😴😴😴

 

Hahah what on earth?

 

You got no idea how many times I could get out of a +1 (when I was caught out) on scepter cata with just a 900 unitTP+superpeed, did people fail to capitalise? Youre funy ;p.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[vilesoldier.9826]

3 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You got no idea how many times I could get out of a +1 (when I was caught out) on scepter cata with just a TP+superpeed, did people fail to capitalise? 

 

Survey says.....

YES!

 

ty for playing 'Mad bc Bad'!

Edited October 2, 2023 by vilesoldier.9826

[Flowki.7194]

7 minutes ago, vilesoldier.9826 said:

 

Survey says.....

YES!

 

Right, and all those complaints about cata were just people with l2p issues? Didn't the old ren play the same, high dmg, high speed, couldnt be caught? another spc nerfed on account of playbase l2p issues ;[ Anet should hire you.

 

Look, if they were to balance thief mobility, you could still just play zerker at 3 in the morning to terrorise newbs? infact you could probably do it with condi mech?

Edited October 2, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[vilesoldier.9826]

1 minute ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

Right, and all those complaints about cata were just people with l2p issues? Didn't the old ren play the same, high dmg, high speed, couldnt be caught? another spc nerfed on account of playbase l2p issues ;[ Anet should hire you.

 

Next week on, 'Mad bc Bad", will Flowki ever get their nerfs and finally feel better about other classes having tools he can't match? 😱