Invocation's strange irony

[Phyrak.7260]

Hey there,

Revenant is a peculiar creature sitting somewhere between an elementalist and a warrior in the way it switches between legends and the brunt force aggression in using the powers of the mists to battle against foes.

I was fiddling with a herald build on one character and a renegade on another.

As with other threads I've written on here and the old forum - I am not really one for the swapping of legends; nor elements when playing an elementalist for that matter. Off meta can be all sorts of fun!

Anyhow,

In toying with the build and looking at both some of the old builds that have been and new ones as traits have changed.

Roiling Mists:

A most peculiar trait that very much feels like it is using for camping a spec most of the time - herald being the main contender for this.

With this in mind;

Using the mindset of grandmaster traits that shape the way one plays - could there be a position for a camping grandmaster traits in the invocation line if there was a shift in or assimilation of traits to allow there to be a spot?

In the same mind of daredevil changing it's dodges - now a revenant choosing to focus a legend to precision.

That is to say, keep the core swapping of legends as you please - but let there be a place for those who enjoy the camping style of play while letting those who enjoy the swapping make the most of the normative/meta way to play.

Consider this;

Leaning into the whole dragon knight fantasy - why not let the F2 summon the weapon equivalent from the EoD story fight with a little bit of glint's influence in aesthetics; giving a new lease of life to those assets that were created for the said fight. (Thought it would be polite to allude to it spoilers wise - chapter 14 for reference).

Said weapons would gain rocky appearance in Jalis or corrupted in Mallyx.

Utility skills and energy gain/max would need a tweak as to lean into this.

Then the whole invocation itself could trigger on heal or dodge or particular skill use favouring style of legend.

Alliance being a good example of making it trigger on dodge for example.

 

I know it is certainly an unpopular play style and even request for the hope that such a grandmaster could occur in a future patch.

Which traits could be assimilated, moved or removed to make such a trait exist? 

If you are one who enjoys camping a legend - how would you like to see such a play style strengthened or focused? 

Could this give rise to a more tanky healer with ventari with those who enjoy the supportive game play? 

 

Thank you for reading,

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Honestly the only issue is that Invocation is one of the only traitlines where every trait can be fairly valuable. I wouldn't change any of the existing grandmasters to accomodate this.

It's also a bit too much of a gameplay change; would likely make more sense as an Elite Spec

Roiling Mists is also definitely not a trait that encourages camping; it's just a trait that gives a benefit for Fury (which is Invocation's whole thing). There are so many traits/skills that generate fury. Sure, Herald is the easiest one because you can camp the facet, but it's hardly the only way to get Fury for Rev

Edited October 10, 2023 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[arazoth.7290]

It would indeed be something for an elite spec in the future, rather then a big class overhaul.

How it could : 

• the elite spec would be able to have 5-8 seconds max cd on the elite spec abilties.

• You can't change stance

• one F-skill that would trigger on demand the stance change skills, for example too as idea.

• Energy cost of elite spec abilties would be around dwarf, not too high not too low.

• Energy regain =>

1) An F skill to regain 50 energy on 10 sec cd.

OR

2) 2-3 pips increased energy regaining. Idk the balanced amount, because it's never really done.

 

These "could" be the guidelines how it would be made as elite spec. Ofcourse there are probably other ideas how it could be done. Like you saw I am not going into detail about minor/major elite spec traits and just how it "could" be able to function.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by arazoth.7290

[Dadnir.5038]

Personally, I'd see something like this on the vindicator traitline, more specifically a change to the master tier trait song of arboreum.

I'd change the trait fonctionality to: "You can no longer swap legend. When you aren't using an upkeep skill, endurance regeneration is increased by 25% and your energy pip are increased. +2 pip/s "

[arazoth.7290]

36 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Personally, I'd see something like this on the vindicator traitline, more specifically a change to the master tier trait song of arboreum.

I'd change the trait fonctionality to: "You can no longer swap legend. When you aren't using an upkeep skill, endurance regeneration is increased by 25% and your energy pip are increased. +2 pip/s "

that's basically making vindicator still 2 stances andd vindicator as stance alone doesn't has enough utility... . This would require vindicator rework on it's abilties and would make vindicator more OP if you change stances. And putting so many changes in 1 or a few traits is too much for having an elite spec basicly being 2 different elite specs

[Phyrak.7260]

4 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Honestly the only issue is that Invocation is one of the only traitlines where every trait can be fairly valuable. I wouldn't change any of the existing grandmasters to accomodate this.

It's also a bit too much of a gameplay change; would likely make more sense as an Elite Spec

Roiling Mists is also definitely not a trait that encourages camping; it's just a trait that gives a benefit for Fury (which is Invocation's whole thing). There are so many traits/skills that generate fury. Sure, Herald is the easiest one because you can camp the facet, but it's hardly the only way to get Fury for Rev

This as a gameplay stance could be used for core per the likes of elementalist too - it would be a matter of just giving it a place as a grandmaster trait.

Contained temper and glaring resolve have a similar need in both granting buffs on stun break - assimilation of this would lead to a spare minor GM trait while keeping the trait line as a whole relatively the same.

4 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

It would indeed be something for an elite spec in the future, rather then a big class overhaul.

How it could : 

• the elite spec would be able to have 5-8 seconds max cd on the elite spec abilties.

• You can't change stance

• one F-skill that would trigger on demand the stance change skills, for example too as idea.

• Energy cost of elite spec abilties would be around dwarf, not too high not too low.

• Energy regain =>

1) An F skill to regain 50 energy on 10 sec cd.

OR

2) 2-3 pips increased energy regaining. Idk the balanced amount, because it's never really done.

 

These "could" be the guidelines how it would be made as elite spec. Ofcourse there are probably other ideas how it could be done. Like you saw I am not going into detail about minor/major elite spec traits and just how it "could" be able to function.

 

Having the change applied to core would allow for greater niche builds to play with each legend doing damage or support as they see fit - further strengthened by this trait.

Both kella and Mallyx are condition based and camping them would play differently moreso in this aspect.

Kella's summons for example could gain some of the 'shaped' AoE as to increase their effectiveness.

Mallyx would be maximizing combos perhaps and gaining added effects while using the ult.

The joys of a could means we get a better discussion of the issues and potentials of it working.

A camping legend GM trait would allow for a greater number of play styles between the legends themselves and future e-specs.

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

that's basically making vindicator still 2 stances andd vindicator as stance alone doesn't has enough utility... . This would require vindicator rework on it's abilties and would make vindicator more OP if you change stances. And putting so many changes in 1 or a few traits is too much for having an elite spec basicly being 2 different elite specs

This is where a core grandmaster could come in;

Able to thread the line between them as to focusing on the one legend of the alliance itself.

Gain might/regeneration/protection on legendary alliance skill while camping legendary - st vik gains might and and arch gains healing and protection.

Could further boost this with the amnesty of shing jea trait perhaps too?

[arazoth.7290]

there is no more variation in playing a single legend, it makes it simpler only.

Like I said, implenting this on core is bad, for a future espec it could "maybe" work

[Phyrak.7260]

52 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

there is no more variation in playing a single legend, it makes it simpler only.

Like I said, implenting this on core is bad, for a future espec it could "maybe" work

True in it being simpler; but also allowing for legend skills to be tweaked or changed a little in the same sense of might blow becoming glacial blow from guardians glacial heart or the old path of scars that changed when honed axes was chosen.

Small but forceful changes.

A question for you then.

How could it be made good if ever it would be implemented on core? 

My mindset of it being particular to core means that it'd be usable across current and future e-specs with the necessary legend as opposed to being stuck with the associated legendary stance that comes with said camping e-spec.

[arazoth.7290]

it is just the amount of changing from a few traits is too big. This would need to create and rethink how it works for core without changing core same time because now you have the version how it works now and the other version you said. This is easier seperated in an elite spec where the core mechanics get changed completely if you switch to these elite spec traits. And the further how that elite spec would work would depend on the elite spec trait choices.

An elite spec can alter how core works if you select it. But changing core by adding such a large option ontop of not changing the original core mechanics atm is too big for 1 traitline. 

Core traitlines don't change how core works, that is altered by elite specs if decided ( some more then others )

[Phyrak.7260]

13 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

it is just the amount of changing from a few traits is too big. This would need to create and rethink how it works for core without changing core same time because now you have the version how it works now and the other version you said. This is easier seperated in an elite spec where the core mechanics get changed completely if you switch to these elite spec traits. And the further how that elite spec would work would depend on the elite spec trait choices.

An elite spec can alter how core works if you select it. But changing core by adding such a large option ontop of not changing the original core mechanics atm is too big for 1 traitline. 

Core traitlines don't change how core works, that is altered by elite specs if decided ( some more then others )

Fair call,

But I was more looking at ways that it come be made implicit in the core as opposed to being explicit with an elite specialisation.

The three grandmaster traits in corruption could lean into this theme if you were to using the theorized invocation GM to shift your play style I. Such a way.

Add in an e-spec of it's own for further shaping/refinement and you could have an interesting play style.

Eg.

Mallyx focused vindicator that invokes Mallyx on dodge for a boost in pips/refresh rate.

Considering vindicator itself - either sub legend could have its niche of sorts.

A ventari focused vindicator itself would be a fascinating balance of defence and support while using aggression as a point to flow between.

Just one idea of the way it could work 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

4 hours ago, Phyrak.7260 said:

Contained temper and glaring resolve have a similar need in both granting buffs on stun break - assimilation of this would lead to a spare minor GM trait while keeping the trait line as a whole relatively the same.

These are actually opposite effects; glaring resolve is on stunbreak while contained temper is when you stun someone. So they're unfortunately not similar enough to assimilate.

If anything is going to be assimilated it should be by fusing Cleansing Channel into Invoker's Rage. Both get their benefit from Legend Swapping and therefore could both be added together with minimal issue. They would then have to move a Major into a Minor (honestly Spirit Boon or Rapid Flow could both move down) and then they'd have to move Charged Mists or Song of the Mists down to Major. After that you would have your Grandmaster slot open.

However, I'm still not super for it since it seems like too big of a gameplay change for a Core Grandmaster trait, especially since it's effectively adding mechanics. Most Grandmasters don't drastically change playstyles, only modify them. I think an Elite Spec would definitely fit this more because then they could do more with it as well. Unfortunately that would ofc preclude the Elites from gaining the new playstyle as well, but I think that would be fine

[Phyrak.7260]

1 minute ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

These are actually opposite effects; glaring resolve is on stunbreak while contained temper is when you stun someone. So they're unfortunately not similar enough to assimilate.

If anything is going to be assimilated it should be by fusing Cleansing Channel into Invoker's Rage. Both get their benefit from Legend Swapping and therefore could both be added together with minimal issue. They would then have to move a Major into a Minor (honestly Spirit Boon or Rapid Flow could both move down) and then they'd have to move Charged Mists or Song of the Mists down to Major. After that you would have your Grandmaster slot open.

However, I'm still not super for it since it seems like too big of a gameplay change for a Core Grandmaster trait, especially since it's effectively adding mechanics. Most Grandmasters don't drastically change playstyles, only modify them. I think an Elite Spec would definitely fit this more because then they could do more with it as well. Unfortunately that would ofc preclude the Elites from gaining the new playstyle as well, but I think that would be fine

Fair call there.

A shift around/assimilation where it makes sense would be good - my apologies; I misread contained temper.

Cleansing channel and invokers rage most certainly work better together!

The reasoning for it to be core is to allow for a greater thematically play as new legends become available. Unless there would be a way to access other e-specs legends while it being its own e-spec focused camping legend...which would be some rather wild spaghetti code.

The way I see this is a little more layering as opposed to a split definition; hence the parallel play of sorts.

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, Phyrak.7260 said:

Leaning into the whole dragon knight fantasy - why not let the F2 summon the weapon equivalent from the EoD story fight with a little bit of glint's influence in aesthetics; giving a new lease of life to those assets that were created for the said fight. (Thought it would be polite to allude to it spoilers wise - chapter 14 for reference).

Aren't those just the gen 3 legendary weapon skins and effects?

[Phyrak.7260]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Aren't those just the gen 3 legendary weapon skins and effects?

Good question!

I tried hunting for information on the abilities that were given in the story instances but couldn't find anything.

I think they would be - albeit the effects would be toned down heavily as to not step on the toes of those who made the legendaries while emulating those skills from the chapter itself 

[Dadnir.5038]

15 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

that's basically making vindicator still 2 stances andd vindicator as stance alone doesn't has enough utility... . This would require vindicator rework on it's abilties and would make vindicator more OP if you change stances. And putting so many changes in 1 or a few traits is too much for having an elite spec basicly being 2 different elite specs

Nope, it's not making vindicator "still 2 stances", it's making the alliance legend "still 2 stances". It might be a subtil difference but it's an important one.

The alliance legend don't have any less utilities than any other legend (in fact it probably got more utility than any other legend out there with movement, break stun, boon, damage, CC, evade, support...).

There are traits currently in game that introduce a lot more changes than what I suggest. With or without this trait the core of the gameplay of the vindicator would still be the gameplay of a grasshopper.

From my point of view, all your arguments are empty, you're just against the idea, nothing more, nothing less.

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Nope, it's not making vindicator "still 2 stances", it's making the alliance legend "still 2 stances". It might be a subtil difference but it's an important one.

The alliance legend don't have any less utilities than any other legend (in fact it probably got more utility than any other legend out there with movement, break stun, boon, damage, CC, evade, support...).

There are traits currently in game that introduce a lot more changes than what I suggest. With or without this trait the core of the gameplay of the vindicator would still be the gameplay of a grasshopper.

From my point of view, all your arguments are empty, you're just against the idea, nothing more, nothing less.

you knew what with vindicator 2 stances about alliance stance. elite specs are their elite stance, since that's what makes the elite spec otherwise you have you can just run core. You were nitpicking on this for an argument.

From my point of view (only a sith lord deals in absolutes) I explained it well what scenarios will occur why this won't work unless it this option is done for a new elite spec. But for core nope

Eitherway, this will never happen, arenanet doesn't do such big changes for core of the class, so you all may argue how "great" idea this is.

[Phyrak.7260]

20 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Personally, I'd see something like this on the vindicator traitline, more specifically a change to the master tier trait song of arboreum.

I'd change the trait fonctionality to: "You can no longer swap legend. When you aren't using an upkeep skill, endurance regeneration is increased by 25% and your energy pip are increased. +2 pip/s "

Trait function as part of the GM would work well with your above - the increased pips per second and/ or perhaps increased base amount of energy would work well too.

I can understand why you would choose to place it onto vindicator - but that'd lose out on the different dodges the class gets as it's core function.

This theoretical trait which gives more meat to the bone in both core and e-spec camping would be in the mind of accentuating it core theme.

The increased endurance would work very well with camping in vindicator 

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Phyrak.7260 said:

Good question!

I tried hunting for information on the abilities that were given in the story instances but couldn't find anything.

I think they would be - albeit the effects would be toned down heavily as to not step on the toes of those who made the legendaries while emulating those skills from the chapter itself 

You haven't done it yet?

Spoiler

There are no special skills in the final chapter of the EoD story, outside of a special action leap skill (I think, it's been a while, but I remember being able to jump further than normal). You use your normal weapon skills, it's just that your stats get massively buffed by the powerup to the point where champions feel like veterans. You get bigger and glowy (there's probably an infusion that can replicate the glow, but I don't know it off the top of my head) and the skins of your weapons are temporarily replaced by the Aurene legendary weapon skins. Seriously, if you want to preview one of the Aurene legendary weapons and Hizen's showcase video isn't giving you the information you want, (re)playing that instance is a good way to do it.

In short, there's not really anything there that can be used to come up with new skills or mechanics. They just wanted to give you a big epic powerup for the climactic fight, but didn't want to actually change your skills because that annoys some people.

Broadly speaking, I don't really see much benefit to trying to create a revenant that never swaps. You'd probably be better off playing something else with a similar playstyle, like guardian, and any trait or elite specialisation in that direction is drawing options away from playing revenant as intended. If you're frugal with energy you can be in a situation where you don't have to swap for energy, but then you can choose to swap for versatility instead.

Edited October 11, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Phyrak.7260]

13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You haven't done it yet?

  Reveal hidden contents

There are no special skills in the final chapter of the EoD story, outside of a special action leap skill (I think, it's been a while, but I remember being able to jump further than normal). You use your normal weapon skills, it's just that your stats get massively buffed by the powerup to the point where champions feel like veterans. You get bigger and glowy (there's probably an infusion that can replicate the glow, but I don't know it off the top of my head) and the skins of your weapons are temporarily replaced by the Aurene legendary weapon skins. Seriously, if you want to preview one of the Aurene legendary weapons and Hizen's showcase video isn't giving you the information you want, (re)playing that instance is a good way to do it.

In short, there's not really anything there that can be used to come up with new skills or mechanics. They just wanted to give you a big epic powerup for the climactic fight, but didn't want to actually change your skills because that annoys some people.

Broadly speaking, I don't really see much benefit to trying to create a revenant that never swaps. You'd probably be better off playing something else with a similar playstyle, like guardian, and any trait or elite specialisation in that direction is drawing options away from playing revenant as intended. If you're frugal with energy you can be in a situation where you don't have to swap for energy, but then you can choose to swap for versatility instead.

Yes, I have played it;

I've figured out where my confusion came from.

Due to using great sword through both PoF and EoD and the specialist GS from the chapter in PoF - the memory got mixed.

Still stands to point that giving a way to make camping viable as opposed to being frugal with energy; further still a way to strengthen the legend you're in via a GM trait.

If it were to be a new e-spec; I think that having access to other legends to camp them from other e-specs could be interesting or perhaps given more legends to access generally to accommodate different thematics of play in channeling the legend at hand.

[draxynnic.3719]

Even as a new e-spec, I kinda feel it would be denying people who enjoy revenant as it is the opportunity to have a new legend. That's often one of the big things to look forward to with respect to revenant elite specialisations.

In my experience, the elite legends are fairly friendly when it comes to camping, with the exception of quickness herald basically being the best herald build for soloing. Draconic Echo, however, is good for a herald playstyle which can mostly camp Glint, you have to work fairly hard to drain energy with Archemorus especially if you have the sigils to increase how often you can jump, and if you don't use the elite it also takes effort to completely drain yourself with Kalla (enough that I find condition renegade a bit of a PITA to run due to how precisely you often have to time things to get the benefit from Charged Mists when swapping back to Mallyx). Invocation's legend-camping traits are... basically everything except Charged Mists and the top line would work.

My approach, when I do feel like just mostly sticking to one legend, is to view the other legend as utility. I might spend most of my time in the elite legend, but Jalis is good to have in the pocket for stability, an extra healing skill with condition removal, a CC, and general toughness, and then I can switch back to the 'primary' legend shortly afterwards. Ventari can also be good for this role, especially if projectile destruction is something that might be useful. They can be the sort of things that you might not be planning to use if everything is going well, but are good to have if you do need them, and since you're not playing a rotation that requires a constant back and forward between legends, they're there to use reactively when you need them.

[Phyrak.7260]

16 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Even as a new e-spec, I kinda feel it would be denying people who enjoy revenant as it is the opportunity to have a new legend. That's often one of the big things to look forward to with respect to revenant elite specialisations.

In my experience, the elite legends are fairly friendly when it comes to camping, with the exception of quickness herald basically being the best herald build for soloing. Draconic Echo, however, is good for a herald playstyle which can mostly camp Glint, you have to work fairly hard to drain energy with Archemorus especially if you have the sigils to increase how often you can jump, and if you don't use the elite it also takes effort to completely drain yourself with Kalla (enough that I find condition renegade a bit of a PITA to run due to how precisely you often have to time things to get the benefit from Charged Mists when swapping back to Mallyx). Invocation's legend-camping traits are... basically everything except Charged Mists and the top line would work.

My approach, when I do feel like just mostly sticking to one legend, is to view the other legend as utility. I might spend most of my time in the elite legend, but Jalis is good to have in the pocket for stability, an extra healing skill with condition removal, a CC, and general toughness, and then I can switch back to the 'primary' legend shortly afterwards. Ventari can also be good for this role, especially if projectile destruction is something that might be useful. They can be the sort of things that you might not be planning to use if everything is going well, but are good to have if you do need them, and since you're not playing a rotation that requires a constant back and forward between legends, they're there to use reactively when you need them.

Could a relic be the middle ground for making it work? 

Eg. Relic of tormenting shadow

Lose access to swapping legend - invoke Mallyx upon applying X stacks of torment.

Energy and utility bar gains Y increase

Something along those lines? 

[arazoth.7290]

I bet every quickness dps herald would take that.

Perma sitting in glint stance while auto attacking 😂, more effective then afk mechanist back then 😂

[Phyrak.7260]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

I bet every quickness dps herald would take that.

Perma sitting in glint stance while auto attacking 😂, more effective then afk mechanist back then 😂

Relic of the shining dragon;

Turn all skills to their actives and gain boons passively at reduced duration?

That could be an interesting trade off for a slightly less clicky/more dragon knight style of play 

[arazoth.7290]

40 minutes ago, Phyrak.7260 said:

Relic of the shining dragon;

Turn all skills to their actives and gain boons passively at reduced duration?

That could be an interesting trade off for a slightly less clicky/more dragon knight style of play 

nope. At this point you're really messing with how revenant works. I will be honest, I don't think you like how the core of revenant works and you might look for another class that fits more. I say this, because it isn't going to change on core standards so drastically

Edited October 13, 2023 by arazoth.7290

[Phyrak.7260]

3 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

nope. At this point you're really messing with how revenant works. I will be honest, I don't think you like how the core of revenant works and you might look for another class that fits more. I say this, because it isn't going to change on core standards so drastically

I play across plenty of classes - it's the theme that is the focus 

Dragon knight herald =\= guardian in any sense; nor spell breaker for that matter