F to end Duo Q

[Dickinson.7368]

Personally don't really care who was/wasn't top back then.

Would be great tho have even a single solo-q season to see what percent of current top 100 makes it even to plat, let alone their current position.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

7 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

Sometime later I will post the top seats screenshots for those solo q seasons, most of the people you mentioned were not on them.

It may already be posted from back then.

All g brother, I won't make you dig I respect you enough to take your word for

In retrospect and looking at some of my older posts from back then most the 'top players' we have now spent less time playing at all, and more time on here crying about their lacking of "being able to play with friends" Team USA specifically all besides Eura because Eura was a good soloq and preferred to soloq in some cases can't diss

Even Vallun is not innocent here. He was a big proponent of duoq from the moment it was removed and has videos where he states duoq needs to come back because "the population is too low" but look where we're at after duoq 😆👉📉

[Deadmoose.6594]

Why did you choose the letter F as the option to end duo q? because F duo q?

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

On 11/18/2023 at 7:41 PM, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Why did you choose the letter F as the option to end duo q? because F duo q?

If it wasn't before, it is now 😄

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I am of the opinion that, at the current point in time, we stand to gain more players by making the queues full solo than we stand to lose players by doing so.

I am also of the opinion that the players we do leave behind because of this would largely comprise the bulk of why the matches are currently poor quality, and that this would simultaneously resolve queuedodging.

Playing with your friends is available for unranked, and now that there's arena balance in guild halls, there's more platform for people that just want to vibe with their friends. Between that and a change to auto tournament speed, i don't see why we shouldn't at least try it out. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Madam Pussycat.6153]

About 90% of pvpers have been asking for solo queue back for years now, bring back fair equal matches please, I don't think it's too much to ask for.

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

On 11/17/2023 at 3:52 AM, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

all g if you need the help, you need the help, and with how confused you are you definitely need it

Appearntly you need the help though, if you think duoq is bad 😂

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

On 11/22/2023 at 1:58 AM, Madam Pussycat.6153 said:

About 90% of pvpers have been asking for solo queue back for years now, bring back fair equal matches please, I don't think it's too much to ask for.

And people will still complain with soloq only.  

You would think, with all these soloq people, and complaining, y'all would party up to fight the duoq with a duoq rather than run to forums.

[Yerlock.4678]

F

[DoomNexus.5324]

On 11/18/2023 at 5:29 PM, Dickinson.7368 said:

Would be great tho have even a single solo-q season to see what percent of current top 100 makes it even to plat, let alone their current position.

Idk, I am also usually plat 2 or something (started playing more "seriously" after PoF so pretty consistently plat 1/2 since 2018), was in top100 (although my best season finish was unfortunately just top250 yet) and 99% of my matches are solo.
I know multiple others who are also in the leaderboard frequently who either mostly solo-Q or only solo-Q. Boyce and Co also queue solo rather often and still manage to win, so I wouldn't say they are carried by duo-Q. Have played against Boyce, Sindrener, etc several times and they simply are just way better than your average plat 2 guy ngl.
Not saying the leaderboard is a perfect representation of skill either tho. It's not impossible to get boosted obviously but I feel like streamers in particular get a lot of flak and most of the criticism is undeserved in my opinion.

I also voted for F btw (prefer split solo and full-team queues tho, would give pvp guilds a reason to exist again) but I think a lot of people on the forums overestimate the impact of duo-Q. Most threads seem to suggest that it is the single biggest issue holding sPvP back when it's very clearly not.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

12 hours ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

I know multiple others who are also in the leaderboard frequently who either mostly solo-Q or only solo-Q. Boyce and Co also queue solo rather often and still manage to win, so I wouldn't say they are carried by duo-Q. Have played against Boyce, Sindrener, etc several times and they simply are just way better than your average plat 2 guy ngl.
Not saying the leaderboard is a perfect representation of skill either tho. It's not impossible to get boosted obviously but I feel like streamers in particular get a lot of flak and most of the criticism is undeserved in my opinion.

They deserve every bit of it because they're the reason it exists unrestricted. There was no issue at all when it was soloq-only after plat2, meaning the only problematic duoqs are players with at least one participant who is at least plat2 and only the streamers, sweats, and top players consistently make it to those ranks.

When duoq came back unrestricted, it wasn't the average player; silvers, golds, or early plats crying for the right of top players to steamroll themselves with duoq. It was the top players crying for their inability to stomp noobs which is exactly what duoq is and always has been for in any competitive game. If they aren't carried by duoq, then they should prove it because I agree with you that they can, they just choose not to because duoq is easy mode.

And that's when duoq is being used for its intended purpose of noob-stomping and not to openly cheat through boosting like you say. There's no tangible benefit to having duoq in sPvP unless you count making the ranked grind easier for people that; by your own admission, don't even need the ranked grind to be easier.

12 hours ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

I also voted for F btw (prefer split solo and full-team queues tho, would give pvp guilds a reason to exist again) but I think a lot of people on the forums overestimate the impact of duo-Q. Most threads seem to suggest that it is the single biggest issue holding sPvP back when it's very clearly not.

It's the smartest move for ranked to have 2 separate arenas; teams and solos, there wouldn't even be an argument then. 👍

Merged solo/duoq is probably the single biggest issue holding sPvP back because it makes ranked not worth playing by amplifying its existing issues and creating all new ones. Without ranked; your options are unranked and ATs, with unranked offering nothing for the time invested and ATs being whittled down to a complete joke.

Truth be told there's a lot holding sPvP back, but I can't think of anything more damaging than duoq, and if you can I would love to be proven wrong in calling it that.

[Last Crab.6054]

5 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

They deserve every bit of it because they're the reason it exists unrestricted. There was no issue at all when it was soloq-only after plat2, meaning the only problematic duoqs are players with at least one participant who is at least plat2 and only the streamers, sweats, and top players consistently make it to those ranks.

When duoq came back unrestricted, it wasn't the average player; silvers, golds, or early plats crying for the right of top players to steamroll themselves with duoq. It was the top players crying for their inability to stomp noobs which is exactly what duoq is and always has been for in any competitive game. If they aren't carried by duoq, then they should prove it because I agree with you that they can, they just choose not to because duoq is easy mode.

And that's when duoq is being used for its intended purpose of noob-stomping and not to openly cheat through boosting like you say. There's no tangible benefit to having duoq in sPvP unless you count making the ranked grind easier for people that; by your own admission, don't even need the ranked grind to be easier.

It's the smartest move for ranked to have 2 separate arenas; teams and solos, there wouldn't even be an argument then. 👍

Merged solo/duoq is probably the single biggest issue holding sPvP back because it makes ranked not worth playing by amplifying its existing issues and creating all new ones. Without ranked; your options are unranked and ATs, with unranked offering nothing for the time invested and ATs being whittled down to a complete joke.

Truth be told there's a lot holding sPvP back, but I can't think of anything more damaging than duoq, and if you can I would love to be proven wrong in calling it that.

Duo Q specifically ruins pvp. 

Teams wouldn't, nor would solo queue.

Because, if you can get 4 out of 5 under you control you already have an advantage.

This leaves the 5th as an Illision of RNG, and as an excuse.

Duo q doesn't even restric ratings between the two.

AND, it DOES NOT use the higher rating of the two, because if it did, matches would be more fair.

NOPE, MM takes that average of all 5 on the team.

Hours matter, because, sadly and especially for NA, most players Q during the prime hours of PST.....-600-1000PM...+ or - 1hr 

So even if you are good, living in the Oceania part of the world, you won't have a rel chance unless you got elite internet and a night work schedule...or live in a basement.

My guess is the closer you live to the EU server, the better you can play. (where is that?)

Fast Pings Matter

[DoomNexus.5324]

6 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Truth be told there's a lot holding sPvP back, but I can't think of anything more damaging than duoq, and if you can I would love to be proven wrong in calling it that.

When it comes to match quality I think the rating system is the single biggest issue, which consists of 2 components:

1) Players new to sPvP start at 1200, which creates a super toxic environment for both newcomers and more active players as noobs don't get the chance to improve but are immediately expected to compete with people "stuck in elo hell". Their rating should be adjusted rather quickly due to extremely high (too high) volatility but in those few matches there are already 4 team mates who will get pissed and possibly 5 opponents who get bored.

2) Winning as the sole deciding factor for determining the rating change is extremely bad in a team game. Counter Strike 2 is currently demonstrating that perfectly with their new Premier mode, which works very similar to GW2, with only a few additions like streaks ramping up the volatility again (which is implemented incorrectly and imo in a worse way in GW2 anyway).
This is one of the most criticized changes in the cs2 community (apart from "game feel" differences due to a new engine) as the match experience is complete kitten.
One of my mates got ranked with a rating of 1500 (1000 is the absolute minimum) and currently plays at 9k (likely going higher still).
That's as if a legit gold 3 player gets placed in bronze 1.

Just looking at win/loss is completely insufficient and leads to a ton of kitten matches. Especially since this is a domino effect. In a worst case scenario you could always be matched with someone else who is currently ranked too high and the matchmaker "makes them lose" to get into their appropriate rating range. In this case you'd have to carry every single match to not also get dragged down. So you are not playing with and against equals but are basically handicapped all the time. Both outcomes of the match (win or lose) ALWAYS lead to more imbalances too, as either your loss of rating is undeserved or your mate's gain of rating is undeserved, leading to at least 2 worse matches next time (assuming you aren't matched together again and everyone else in the teams deserve this rating change, which is an optimistic assumption).
If personal performance and impact doesn't matter at all you'll always be at the whim of the matchmaker and current population/queue times too.
There are a lot of systems out there that try to quantify this kind of stuff in team games. While of course not perfect they are still miles and miles ahead of the current system. Possibly Counter Strike's most famous one being the HLTV rating with several other third-party services that analyze and rate matches and individual performances, like leetify for example (and csgo's mm/cs2's competitive algorithm also takes this into account). And I'd argue that cs2 is way more complex than gw2.

This is a big problem that affects every single division.
And like, what is the matchmaker supposed to do otherwise? It can only work with what's there.
 

7 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Truth be told there's a lot holding sPvP back

Absolutely agree tho. I don't think there is a single issue that - if fixed - would bring sPvP to an acceptable state. Even the rating system is only one contributing factor. It's probably also irrelevant which one is "the biggest" issue since ranked would need several systems fixed to be fun again imo.

I think Anet should also introduce a bot game with tutorials and explanations for Conquest specifically. Just explaining some basics like line of sight, terrain, rotations, etc. A lot of things are obvious once you know it but if all you ever do is play raids chances are you don't know this, ruining the experience for at least 4 other people in the process.
Too many people also don't realize that it's a team game and that you have virtually 0 impact even if you have a KD of 10 while dueling on close when your team mates can't hold the map without you as a team fighter.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

3 hours ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

When it comes to match quality I think the rating system is the single biggest issue, which consists of 2 components:

Very well articulated and respectful reply, and here on the PvP forums where common decency comes to die, I appreciate that 🤜 and I'll do my best to return the favor

3 hours ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

1) Players new to sPvP start at 1200, which creates a super toxic environment for both newcomers and more active players as noobs don't get the chance to improve but are immediately expected to compete with people "stuck in elo hell". Their rating should be adjusted rather quickly due to extremely high (too high) volatility but in those few matches there are already 4 team mates who will get pissed and possibly 5 opponents who get bored.

This I've heard a lot and only recently with a lot of people convinced that where new players are starting out is the fundamental flaw holding sPvP back as a whole, and there might be some truth to that, but I'm certain that the declining plat population is most to blame for making this an issue. In the good old days(Seasons 9-12); it didn't matter, someone starting at gold 1 because gold 1 was essentially nothing but other new players and people playing at the gold 1 skill level.

But as the plat population keeps dropping low enough for players well into the low golds to appear on the leaderboard, gold 1 starts to seem a lot higher than it actually is. The small handful of plats that remain have to be matched with someone as the matchmaker is and always has been quantity over quality. It doesn't wait for evenly matched games, it starts to search much lower and higher than your effective MMR as you spend more time in queue while also trying to do things like mirror team comps.

So inevitably many people that definitely shouldn't be matched with and against eachother are, and that's ignoring duoq which; due to the lack of any kind of restrictions, can be used to selectively choose a duoq's effective MMR since it uses an average of both players rating for their MMR and there is no limit on how far apart 2 ratings can queue together. People begin to feel like they're out of their league, and there's a two-step method to remedy this:

(1)Start NEW players at bronze & remove placement matches for NEW players. I've heard some people suggest hard resetting everyone to bronze and I think that conflates the gold 1 issue as bronze and silver become the new 'elo hell.' I think placements and soft rating resets are fine for veteran players. This will space out their MMR to adjust to the lowered skill ceiling and make it more difficult for vet players to get into games with new players.
(2)Boost the population of dedicated plat players. Give them more around their skill level and rating to go against so that they aren't constantly being matched with these new players and making everyone involved miserable. It can be done, regardless of what the doomers say. The easiest way is to get rid of things that push away dedicated plat players; duoq, class-swapping, and AFKs/match manipulators.

DuoQ because the easiest way to ensure a veteran players doesn't go up against a newbie is by putting the vets against other vets and not guaranteed to be with them on the same team (This would also reduce the impact of queue-dodging). There should be 0 advantages in a competition. The only time DuoQ is fair is 2v2 for the same reason that I can't trash 5v5 because 5v5 is fair. 2v1 is not and never will be. Class-swapping because its a highly unattractive game of hot potato that can be used to purposefully manipulate the matchmaker which is always trying to mirror team comps. Queue as whatever class drew the short stick on patch day, class-swap to a FoTM hard counter, and keep swapping until the match starts, it really is ridiculous cringe. And AFKs/match manipulators because it says in ToS that they aren't supposed to be allowed to do that. Anet needs to whip its do-nothing GMs into shape and have them start reading some of the player reports made for these reasons.

3 hours ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

2) Winning as the sole deciding factor for determining the rating change is extremely bad in a team game. Counter Strike 2 is currently demonstrating that perfectly with their new Premier mode, which works very similar to GW2, with only a few additions like streaks ramping up the volatility again (which is implemented incorrectly and imo in a worse way in GW2 anyway).
This is one of the most criticized changes in the cs2 community... 

That I can agree with so long as winning is still winning and losing is still losing. There's no pity points in a competition, but the rating gain/loss being only affected by who you're matched with makes the entire system for determining rating RNG-based and not skill-based. I'm of the mind that the ranked mode of any game; whether gw2 or CS, how much you gain or lose from a ranked matched should be tied directly to your personal contribution; from actual statistics, not RNG whoever the matchmaker decided to place you with.

There are many who would shed tears and cry something along the lines of "top stats are meaningless" 😭but these people are 1) idealists and 2) wrong. Realistically top stats are a much better metric for measuring player skill with stats like offense and defense being tied directly to playing the objective and there should be more top stats like those to encourage playing the objective, but even still

It's a crummy feeling when you finish a match with 60% of your teams damage and top damage or like 600,000 healing, top healing & defense and you lose because some crybaby was sat in spawn trying to convince his team that he is the second coming of Babylon. Then you lose -20 solely because you're the highest-rated player and the person who afked loses like -10 because their rating is closer to both team's average MMR. It's a dated and skewed rating system and it surprises me that CS2 has something similar, thought that was newer, yes?

3 hours ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

Absolutely agree tho. I don't think there is a single issue that - if fixed - would bring sPvP to an acceptable state. Even the rating system is only one contributing factor. It's probably also irrelevant which one is "the biggest" issue since ranked would need several systems fixed to be fun again imo.

There is, it's called duoq. I think it's true and you were right when you said there's multiple issues holding sPvP back, but the conversation will inevitably come back to duoq. It is the head of the snake. Sever it, and the body dies.

New players getting matched against vets? Duoq is at least partially to blame like I explained before and the only thing worse than a new player going against a vet is a new players going against 2 coordinated vets as 1 singular new person.

Inaccurate rating system? Duoq don't care, they be winning anywhere from like 80-100% of their games every season. Even if the leaderboard and rating system were redesigned from the ground-up, allowing 2v1 will ensure that rating will never mean anything anyways. They're rated and compete for leaderboard positions as individuals, but play as a team, and against people who are not playing as a team, instead relying on their own wits, skill, and readiness to take on whatever the matchmaker gives them, solo 🗿

They're also probably communists with their disdain for any kind of competition. Delete 🧑‍🤝‍🧑👉🗑️Or split into a separate arena and leaderboard where only teams are allowed instead of mixing them with soloq

3 hours ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

I think Anet should also introduce a bot game with tutorials and explanations for Conquest specifically. Just explaining some basics like line of sight, terrain, rotations, etc. A lot of things are obvious once you know it but if all you ever do is play raids chances are you don't know this, ruining the experience for at least 4 other people in the process.
Too many people also don't realize that it's a team game and that you have virtually 0 impact even if you have a KD of 10 while dueling on close when your team mates can't hold the map without you as a team fighter.

I think that's a great idea, and if our benefactors ever redesign the rating system and scoreboard, there should be more top stats similar to offense & defense that encourage playing the objective, as well as detailed explanations of how to earn progress towards them and that could easily be included with a basic tutorial.

Lot of words, but what you've wrote is pretty thought-provoking. Wishing you a loveleh day and keep up the good work 👍

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

7 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

Duo Q specifically ruins pvp. 

Teams wouldn't, nor would solo queue.

Amen. SPvP becomes worth playing again the moment they either remove nasty duoq or give it its own separate arena and leaderboard where they can only play as teams.

Teams vs Teams - Okay

Teams vs Solos - Stupid, delete 🧑‍🤝‍🧑👉🗑️and let it set an example for future games not to include anything like it in their ranked modes because it will destroy any and all competitive integrity therein like the divisive and lazy concept it is.

7 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

Because, if you can get 4 out of 5 under you control you already have an advantage.

This leaves the 5th as an Illision of RNG, and as an excuse.

Yes 🙏

Never ask a woman her age, a man his salary, or the 5th person on a team of duoqs whether or not they had any fun. We have to take a backseat for duos, and its so they can "play with friends" 

7 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

Duo q doesn't even restric ratings between the two.

AND, it DOES NOT use the higher rating of the two, because if it did, matches would be more fair.

NOPE, MM takes that average of all 5 on the team.

What's funny is Trevor is the one who dug up some ancient post on the old forums from Ben P explaining that duoq uses an average of both player's rating for MMR, yet refuses to acknowledge how duoq can be used for match manipulation

Everything you said was true, he knows its true, and the duoqs can quite literally pick and choose their effective MMR. From the moment it was added back duoq became the new wintrading. If you wanted to manipulate the outcome of a game soloq, you queue at once and pray you go into the same game and on different teams. If you want to manipulate the outcome of a game duoq, just queue with a buddy on a tanked alt, and your success is very literally guaranteed. The sudden 80, 90, 100% of games won every season after season 13 is no coincidence. The boosted formerly gold players like Malediktus sudden taking rank 1 with almost every game won shortly after duoq came back is no coincidence either. You can even find old posts on these very forums where they literally brag about letting Helio duo using their account and getting away with it. 🙃

7 hours ago, Last Crab.6054 said:

So even if you are good, living in the Oceania part of the world, you won't have a rel chance unless you got elite internet and a night work schedule...or live in a basement.

My guess is the closer you live to the EU server, the better you can play. (where is that?)

Not sure. UK or Germany I think. All I know is that [Rush] becomes [Blink] on Oceania ping.

The same ppl that duoq been going outside the game forever though to get advantages within, whole reason duoq even exists tbh. If you wanted to challenge someone to a game of class-swap hot potato, the person with better ping, game loaded onto SSD, or using a cloud gaming service wins every time. Because class-swapping is not an explained or properly implemented feature and requires reloading the map every time.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Multicolorhipster.9751
Deus vult