Wizard's Vault offers fewer clovers per month this season than last season or the old daily login system

[Cyninja.2954]

26 minutes ago, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

Wow, that's great. Look at all those ways to get clovers that the WV has given us access to.

Oh wait, they were all there before WV, apart from the Lyhr one. So we had means of doing all of this without the WV. And we were just talking about the comparison between the WV and the old daily login process, which means all of this is irrelevant to the discussion.

Thanks for playing,. Maybe understand what the discussion is about before you jump in with your sarcastic "gotchas" next time?

True, they were. 

WV simply added the 500-600 gold more which you can use to convert the clovers, at the expense of less than 10 clovers per quarter.

Listen, if you are unhappy, that's okay. You don't have to like the WV. You don't get to make kitten up when the math is this easy though.

EDIT: before this goes on, and since you where complaining about clovers, mystic coins and laurels, lets compare those.

Old system: 35 laurels per 28 days, 7 clovers per 28 days OR 20 laurels (the final chest made this mutually exclusive), 20 Mystic Coins per 28 days. In a 4 month period this would result in a total of 140 Laurels, 28 Clovers and 80 Mystic Coins.

New system: 310 laurels, 20 clovers, 60 Mystic Coins.

310 > 140

20 < 28

60 < 80

So even IF there is a 4 month cycle, you lose out on 8 clovers and 20 Mystic Coins as direct rewards while gaining 170 laurels (this discrepancy drops to 1 clover and 0 mystic coins loss for 130 laurels gain in a 3 month cycle). That is before the overall increased rewards of the wizard vault. I am really having a hard time understanding the issue here.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Kranlor Greyhelm.8417]

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

True, they were. 

WV simply added the 500-600 gold more which you can use to convert the clovers, at the expense of less than 10 clovers per quarter.

Listen, if you are unhappy, that's okay. You don't have to like the WV. You don't get to make kitten up when the math is this easy though.

EDIT: before this goes on, and since you where complaining about clovers, mystic coins and laurels, lets compare those.

Old system: 35 laurels per 28 days, 7 clovers per 28 days OR 20 laurels (the final chest made this mutually exclusive), 20 Mystic Coins per 28 days. In a 4 month period this would result in a total of 140 Laurels, 28 Clovers and 80 Mystic Coins.

New system: 310 laurels, 20 clovers, 60 Mystic Coins.

310 > 140

20 < 28

60 < 80

So even IF there is a 4 month cycle, you lose out on 8 clovers and 20 Mystic Coins as direct rewards while gaining 170 laurels (this discrepancy drops to 1 clover and 0 mystic coins loss for 130 laurels gain in a 3 month cycle). That is before the overall increased rewards of the wizard vault. I am really having a hard time understanding the issue here.

4 months isn't equal to 4 28 day cycles, for starters. You are missing out the 9-12 additional days in your calculations. Which makes the coin and clover comparison even worse. Now sure, the laurel situation is improved due to the weekly (which I'd forgotten about). But given what this whole change has done to the market, losing ~10 clovers and ~28 coins is going to take a pretty big chunk out of the gold gain of ~120 laurels. Especially if you want T6, which means converting the more valuable T4/T3 to T6 takes a chunk of that profit.

And remember; the whole driver for this was ANET wanting to rewards active players MORE. Sure, you can do that by giving them more gold, but what happens to the economy when everyone gets more gold, but resources get scarcer? We are likely to see the prices of materials going up more and more as we get further into this window, won't need to go much further for the MC price to eat up the whole of that theoretical laurel profit.

[Edit] Realised I misread the numbers, it was 170 not 130 as the starting point for the laurels difference. Otherwise the point still stands.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Kranlor Greyhelm.8417

[Cyninja.2954]

18 minutes ago, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

4 months isn't equal to 4 28 day cycles, for starters. You are missing out the 9-12 additional days in your calculations. Which makes the coin and clover comparison even worse. Now sure, the laurel situation is improved due to the weekly (which I'd forgotten about). But given what this whole change has done to the market, losing ~10 clovers and ~28 coins is going to take a pretty big chunk out of the gold gain of ~120 laurels. Especially if you want T6, which means converting the more valuable T4/T3 to T6 takes a chunk of that profit.

I wasn't missing the 9-12 days, those wouldn't yield any clovers. I was using 4 months to add that additional month instead of a few lost days. I can redo the entire calculation if you want on a day by day basis, it would make this FAR FAR worse for the old system, especially when considering the immense upfront rewards of the Wizard Vault (6 point gold bags, far faster access to clovers and coins if desired, etc.).

Oh and I spared you comparing a shorter than 3 month cycle for the new system because under those circumstances you had NO benefit with the old model, at all.

Quote

And remember; the whole driver for this was ANET wanting to rewards active players MORE. Sure, you can do that by giving them more gold, but what happens to the economy when everyone gets more gold, but resources get scarcer? We are likely to see the prices of materials going up more and more as we get further into this window, won't need to go much further for the MC price to eat up the whole of that theoretical laurel profit.

Ah so now we are moving the goal post. So far the rewards were worse than the old system, now they are to good. Got you. No problem, let's tackle that too.

1. the increased laurels rewards are not liquid gold and can be converted 1to1 into T6 materials. Inflation proof

2. the Wizard Vault offers heavy crafting bags which yield T6 materials. The reason those are worth less currently is because picking the gold bags yields more return. IF inflation should change this, the heavy crafting bags will remain an inflation proof alternative (which at the same time would reduce the inflow of gold into the game, almost like a self regulating mechanism)

3. the amount of price hike that would have to occur is a LOT before the new system even remotely gets beaten out by the old one

4. the entire premise of the new system eventually becoming inferior hinges on the fact that values for limited rewards remain fixed. There is nothing preventing the developers to increase Mystic Coins or Clovers for astral acclaim for a season. They could even do so temporarily without having to commit long term to this, giving them the possibility to react to short term issues IF they so desired

Good enough? Are you done embarrassing yourself? Are we done here?

There is exactly 1 benefit the old system had over the new one: passive reward generation. That is IT!

Edited November 26, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Sylvyn.4750]

On 11/25/2023 at 8:13 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mystic_Clover

Non RNG ways to acquire clovers currently, which still allows for most materials to be acquired via gold with a select material from specific content

- 10 per week from fractals

- 10 per week from raids

- 5 per week from strikes

- 5 per week from WvW

- 5 per week from SPvP

- infinite amount from Lyhr, at a premium cost (3 MC + 3 Obi Shards + 3 Spirit Shards + 5 Ecto) which only makes sense to pay if you absolutely want to avoid RNG. Still it's a strait gold -> clover conversion

- same recipe as Lyhr, but limited to 10 per week from Miyani and other Mystic Forge attendants for non SotO owners

If only there were ways to convert all that extra gold into Mystic Clovers without having to be subject to RNG...../s 🤦‍♂️

The previous poster mentioned crafting, so I was responding to that avenue of making clovers.  I am well aware of the other ways to earn or purchase clovers, none of which have to do with crafting. Crafting generally refers to the professions that have to be trained, such as Weaponsmith, Jeweler, etc., in which the combination of items leads to guaranteed and predictable results.  Results from the Mystic toilet can vary and don't require professional training to throw things in, just like a real toilet, hence my objection to call it crafting.