Fractals of the Mists Fractures The Playerbase

[ronkul.1320]

6 hours ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Except there is no reason for there to not be an investment requirement for high tier fractals. We've come to a point in this game where we have builds doing 25-30k dps literally auto attacking, gear with best in slot stats literally being handed for doing your dailies (5-10 mins a day), the single most useful mount being farmable in a single day. All of these were results of people constantly complaining about things being too hard or grindy. People have been coming up with excuses to not play the game for years. Any guesses what that did in the end? People are still complaining about ascended somehow being too hard to get, about skyscale being too grindy, endgame instanced content requiring 4 brain cells held together by glue. 

People keep arguing about this or that being arbitrary, the whole game is arbitrary brother, a game is something you play in your spare time to entertain yourself and pass the time, stop trying to steer everything towards instant gratification, this MMO is not a hamster wheel, you have all the time in the world to do things at a reasonable pace, sit back and enjoy the journey. If you keep chasing the next thing every step of the way, you'll be faced with utter disappointment in the end in this game. I see this a lot with WoW players in this game. they come to the game with the preconceived notion that they must have the gear with the highest stats possible and rush to grab ascended gear, then feel burnt out because suddenly they are left aimless, seeing no purpose in even doing content with the gear they acquired because there is no next thing to acquire.

We can have long term goals so that we do not get burnt out like cosmetics or horizontal progression/utility progression (masteries and legendary gear) without having a gating mechanic be base on the gold or the grind you did previously. Like you said an MMO is not a hamster wheel and grind should not be mandatory because of a gating system. You should be able to chase after long term goals but this game is designed as a skills based game and should be gated on skills or equivalent. MMOs are a game like you said, it is not a "job" where you need to invest something to get something back (other than say skill attainment). Rewards do not have to be insta-gratifying but do not need to affect core gameplay gating. Also like you said those WoW players looking for insta-gradification are also looking for a grind that blocks people from reaching them in terms of game advantage if they do not grind as much as them and feel burnt out when it is not true nor do they have a constant goal to grind for (which would fulfill the second purpose of gating others behind them as mentioned). Also I would be fine if the gold gating system actually fosters skillful gameplay learning or something similar but it is just a useless gold tax (gold investment). If there was a skill investment or non-useless investment (useless investments are what people call "grind" in a derogatory way) then I am for that "investment."

Edited January 20 by ronkul.1320

[Passerbye.6291]

6 minutes ago, ronkul.1320 said:

We can have long term goals so that we do not get burnt out like cosmetics or horizontal progression/utility progression (masteries and legendary gear) without having a gating mechanic be base on the gold or the grind you did previously. Like you said an MMO is not a hamster wheel and grind should not be mandatory because of a gating system. You should be able to chase after long term goals but this game is designed as a skills based game and should be gated on skills or equivalent. MMOs are a game like you said, it is not a "job" where you need to invest something to get something back (other than say skill attainment). Rewards do not have to be insta-gratifying but do not need to affect core gameplay gating. Also like you said those WoW players looking for insta-gradification are also looking for a grind that blocks people from reaching them in terms of game advantage if they do not grind as much as them and feel burnt out when it is not true nor do they have a constant goal to grind for (which would fulfill the second purpose of gating others behind them as mentioned). Also I would be fine if the gold gating system actually fosters skillful gameplay learning or something similar but it is just a useless gold tax (gold investment). If there was a skill investment or non-useless investment (useless investments are what people call "grind" in a derogatory way) then I am for that "investment."

The problem with what you said is, the gold tax exists for people who wish to not do the proper progression. Anyone who gradually progresses through fractals can have the agony infusions, as well as the necessary ascended gear without much, if any, gold investment. The fact that you call it a useless gold tax means you already wish to bypass the natural progression of the game. And you and I both know you are being disingenuous when you say you'd be fine with some other form of requirement, in reality, if they were to require you to do all fractals to slowly progress to tier 4, you'd be here complaining about another "useless gate" because you'd deem yourself qualified to do T4s. The fact of the matter is, anyone who thinks ascended gear and +9 infusions are a serious gold sink are way too new to the game and lack the knowledge necessary. I'm not saying having ascended gear or +9 infusions makes you a good player, but thinking that they are hard to get or a big grind definitely makes you either too casual or too new a player to do T4s. 

There has to be some form of gating for T4 fractals. In an ideal world, this would be through proving that you can do said content, but when this was the case, people complained about it incessantly and the system was changed to what we have now. 

TLDR: I'd rather not have a bunch of new players flood T4s because they give more loot with 0 regard for how big of a burden they may be just because some guy thinks ascended gear, after years and years of changes to make it easier and easier, is still hard to get. Play the freaking game and you can do fractals in no time, or better yet, actually learn fractals in the order they were meant to be and gold will come alone the way.

[ronkul.1320]

Like I said it was a useless tax because it is an upfront investment that does not gate based on skill but by grinding gold which can be done outside of fractals (which defeats the point of grinding in fractals). And I would not complain about a useless gate if it fosters skill acquisition and if it grants a buffer for newbies getting into the deep end too quick. I would complain however if this slow progress is not because of lack of skill but a time gate or equivalent. Also I do not deem myself qualified to do t4 because as I said before I am t3 and have almost all ascended gear for my main (all for another) with +9 infusions too and have started from t1 not being carried.

[Passerbye.6291]

1 minute ago, ronkul.1320 said:

Like I said it was a useless tax because it is an upfront investment that does not gate based on skill but by grinding gold which can be done outside of fractals (which defeats the point of grinding in fractals). And I would not complain about a useless gate if it fosters skill acquisition and if it grants a buffer for newbies getting into the deep end too quick. I would complain however if this slow progress is not because of lack of skill but a time gate or equivalent. Also I do not deem myself qualified to do t4 because as I said before I am t3 and have almost all ascended gear for my main (all for another) with +9 infusions too and have started from t1 not being carried.

By that logic, legendaries have artificial time gates, as do raids, why force me to farm exp for masteries, totally useless and meaningless farm. Daily login rewards are meaningless time gates as well, let me login 321532 times a days already Anette! /s 

Play the freaking game, gold is part of is, as are many other things. Out of all the things you could call a meaningless gate, gold is not one of them, because you can farm it incessantly. 

[ronkul.1320]

Also those "too casual or too new players" can also buy gems to gold to bypass this mechanic anyways.

[ronkul.1320]

But those "gates" are "optional gates" because they do not affect core gameplay systems.

[Passerbye.6291]

Just now, ronkul.1320 said:

Also those "too casual or too new players" can also buy gems to gold to bypass this mechanic anyways.

Those players usually come back to the forums to complain about the game being too hard or people being "toxic elitists" after getting booted from every single group for being terrible at the game.

As said, I'd prefer everyone to need to properly progress through the game, but people don't have the patience for it, hence the current system.

[ronkul.1320]

I am not saying gold cannot be a gate (like legendaries and rare cosmetics), but they should not affect core gameplay gating systems if it does not foster some form of growth/personal achievement (not gold or wealth achievements if they are core gameplay gating mechanics).

[ronkul.1320]

But you said that they would flood t4s but at the same time say that people would naturally boot them as a result. So is it okay or not?

[ronkul.1320]

Also most newbies are still newbies after farming gold because most of the game (especially open world), as people have pointed out, does not teach enough skillful gameplay.

[Passerbye.6291]

Just now, ronkul.1320 said:

But you said that they would flood t4s but at the same time say that people would naturally boot them as a result. So is it okay or not?

I'd rather not further enable the behaviour, I'll happily kick anyone who is useless in the group, but I'd rather not have to kick 10 people before having a semi decent group running.

Just now, ronkul.1320 said:

I am not saying gold cannot be a gate (like legendaries and rare cosmetics), but they should not affect core gameplay gating systems if it does not foster some form of growth/personal achievement (not gold or wealth achievements if they are core gameplay gating mechanics).

There is literally 0 core gameplay gating mechanic associated with fractals since you can do 100 so long as one person has access to it, so you being able to farm gold to get agony infusions does not, in any way, interact with it. Now, if you are arguing that the fact that you can buy ascended gear and infusions bypasses the natural progression and therefore should not be allowed, say so, don't complain about the gold gate. The problem here is the fact that you can use gold in the first place, not that it requires a certain amount of gold. 

Just now, ronkul.1320 said:

Also most newbies are still newbies after farming gold because most of the game (especially open world), as people have pointed out, does not teach enough skillful gameplay.

Which is why people have been telling you to do lower tiers anyway and that T3 fractals are notorious for having these people in them. Removing what little requirement we have with agony infusions (what you initially suggested), these people would be flooding T4, so no thanks. 

[ronkul.1320]

Also ease of access to farming gold does not make it less boring if it lacks engagement or does not make you more skillful.

[ronkul.1320]

If people have enough gold for t3 they have enough gold to go to t4 very soon without getting that skilled. I also stated some suggestions of other gating mechanics in my previous posts that does not require gold or a useless gating mechanic.

[ronkul.1320]

Also even if you are not allowed to bypass the ascended/infusion gating mechanic, that does not mean that you cannot get ascended gear/infusions outside of fractals which defeats the point of  "natural progression" of fractals because stuff can be earned outside for gold.

[ronkul.1320]

And people have not been telling me to do lower tiers that is an assumption on your part.

Edited January 20 by ronkul.1320

[Passerbye.6291]

2 hours ago, ronkul.1320 said:

Also ease of access to farming gold does not make it less boring if it lacks engagement or does not make you more skillful.

If you find all sources of gold in this game boring and not engaging, it means you don't enjoy the game in the first place. You can literally do open world, instanced content, fishing, harvesting, PvP or a mixture of any of these to farm gold. If none of this speaks to you, you are in the wrong game. If you constantly ask yourself "but why though" when you are playing the game, it means you are making the game be a chore for yourself. The journey is supposed to be fun, not about making it from A to B as I previously mentioned. 

2 hours ago, ronkul.1320 said:

If people have enough gold for t3 they have enough gold to go to t4 very soon without getting that skilled. I also stated some suggestions of other gating mechanics in my previous posts that does not require gold or a useless gating mechanic.

The game straight up hands you a certain amount of ascended gear, these usually correspond to having enough for T3, not T4. Doing T4 requires you to put at least some thought into procuring the remaining pieces and/or infuse and attune your trinkets, which is where T4 comes in. 

2 hours ago, ronkul.1320 said:

Also even if you are not allowed to bypass the ascended/infusion gating mechanic, that does not mean that you cannot get ascended gear/infusions outside of fractals which defeats the point of  "natural progression" of fractals because stuff can be earned outside for gold.

Except not being able to bypass the gating mechanic would mean that either ascended or infusions would be untradable, forcing you to farm them yourself, or alternately forcing you to play every single fractal level to progress it 1 by 1, any one of these would ensure that you'd have some fractal experience to progress. But as said, people hated this and the system was changed with a soft gate.

2 hours ago, ronkul.1320 said:

And people have not been telling me to do lower tiers.

That's a reading comprehension issue right there, but you know what, I'm too lazy to dig up old messages so, DO LOWER TIERS, there you go.

Edited January 20 by Passerbye.6291

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

21 minutes ago, ronkul.1320 said:

Like I said it was a useless tax because it is an upfront investment that does not gate based on skill but by grinding gold which can be done outside of fractals (which defeats the point of grinding in fractals). And I would not complain about a useless gate if it fosters skill acquisition and if it grants a buffer for newbies getting into the deep end too quick. I would complain however if this slow progress is not because of lack of skill but a time gate or equivalent. Also I do not deem myself qualified to do t4 because as I said before I am t3 and have almost all ascended gear for my main (all for another) with +9 infusions too and have started from t1 not being carried.

Bring a fresh level 80 person to T4 Fractals and compare that person's skill with the people you usally meet in T4s. Fractal Level and AR ensures that people spend some time in each tier practicing the Fractals. 

[ronkul.1320]

I believe that anet tried to appease both sides with the soft gate change but that just made a non skill based gold tax instead. It only appeased them because it gave a false sense of gating for the t4s and gave a loophole gold insta access to the newbies. I believe that a better gating system that was more skill based but appeasing both sides is possible but would be somewhat difficult but has to definitely not cater to their gut desires.

[ronkul.1320]

5 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Bring a fresh level 80 person to T4 Fractals and compare that person's skill with the people you usally meet in T4s. Fractal Level and AR ensures that people spend some time in each tier practicing the Fractals. 

I am not disagreeing on the fractal level part but on the AR part.

[Passerbye.6291]

1 minute ago, ronkul.1320 said:

I believe that anet tried to appease both sides with the soft gate change but that just made a non skill based gold tax instead. It only appeased them because it gave a false sense of gating for the t4s and gave a loophole gold insta access to the newbies. I believe that a better gating system that was more skill based but appeasing both sides is possible but would be somewhat difficult but has to definitely not cater to their gut desires.

This game has a very casual playerbase, people would flip tables if there was a skill-based gating system. Hell, turtle mount initially required an easy normal mode strike and people lost their kitten over it, so yeah, not happening.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

Just now, Passerbye.6291 said:

This game has a very casual playerbase, people would flip tables if there was a skill-based gating system. Hell, turtle mount initially required an easy normal mode strike and people lost their kitten over it, so yeah, not happening.

It's even better. First it was a meta that they whined about. Anet caved in and allowed people to bypass the meta with Imperial Favors. People first complained the egg is too expensive and then complained they have to do a Strike, so now Anet allows you to bypass the Strike and there were complaints that the bypass is also too expensive.

[ronkul.1320]

Just now, Passerbye.6291 said:

This game has a very casual playerbase, people would flip tables if there was a skill-based gating system. Hell, turtle mount initially required an easy normal mode strike and people lost their kitten over it, so yeah, not happening.

It would definitely not rub the casual playerbase too well in that they do not have inst-access in a skill progression based system like fractals. However fractals on the high end is for high end players and there should be a learning curve to get to there. Like in spvp good players know when they lost to a good player. And the issue with the turtle is that it is a open world mechanic that was a reward from a harder mode gamemode (however easy it is to some). Casual players want casual mechanics to be rewards/gotten from causal content.

[ronkul.1320]

1 minute ago, ronkul.1320 said:

It would definitely not rub the casual playerbase too well in that they do not have inst-access in a skill progression based system like fractals. However fractals on the high end is for high end players and there should be a learning curve to get to there. Like in spvp good players know when they lost to a good player. And the issue with the turtle is that it is a open world mechanic that was a reward from a harder mode gamemode (however easy it is to some). Casual players want casual mechanics to be rewards/gotten from causal content.

An example would be fractal masteries gotten inside fractals and for fractals, not much complaint there.

[Passerbye.6291]

Just now, ronkul.1320 said:

It would definitely not rub the casual playerbase too well in that they do not have inst-access in a skill progression based system like fractals. However fractals on the high end is for high end players and there should be a learning curve to get to there. Like in spvp good players know when they lost to a good player. And the issue with the turtle is that it is a open world mechanic that was a reward from a harder mode gamemode (however easy it is to some). Casual players want casual mechanics to be rewards/gotten from causal content.

Tell that to people who think 7k dps requirement is elitist ^^. Anything that can be used in the open world is an open world mechanic. With that logic skyscale should not be gated behind Soto or living season 4. People will always find ways to complain, so anet just tries to make it as foolproof as possible while not flushing the game down the toilet. Can't say that they always do a great job though.

[ronkul.1320]

Also casuals will complain if a casual mechanic (like certain mounts) were too expensive (griffon) or too grindy (previous skyscale) if it is a reward to and for casual content.