Fractals of the Mists Fractures The Playerbase

[ronkul.1320]

2 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Tell that to people who think 7k dps requirement is elitist ^^. Anything that can be used in the open world is an open world mechanic. With that logic skyscale should not be gated behind Soto or living season 4. People will always find ways to complain, so anet just tries to make it as foolproof as possible while not flushing the game down the toilet. Can't say that they always do a great job though.

It is considered an open world mechanic for expansions the same way other mounts are pof exclusives. It is not the access to free players but casuals that casuals complained about.

[ronkul.1320]

Also I meant that people playing with me in game (usually pugs) do not say to play lower tier fractals to me but if you mean in the forum here then maybe that is true, I apologize.

[ronkul.1320]

42 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

If you find all sources of gold in this game boring and not engaging, it means you don't enjoy the game in the first place. You can literally do open world, instanced content, fishing, harvesting, PvP or a mixture of any of these to farm gold. If none of this speaks to you, you are in the wrong game. If you constantly ask yourself "but why though" when you are playing the game, it means you are making the game be a chore for yourself. The journey is supposed to be fun, not about making it from A to B as I previously mentioned.

A game mode or activity that was enjoyable being farmed to make lots of gold does not make it enjoyable all the time eventually. Like how too much water can kill you.

Also the engaging game content modes for me like wvw and spvp do not give that much gold compared to lets say meta event farming (which was fun for a while too). The game modes and activities that each individual player does may not (in a significant way) make as much gold per time (grind) compared to other game modes/activities. Therefore gold being a common rewards but at the same time comparable across all gamemodes and activities should not also become a gating mechanic for those activities because  it would imbalance and intertwine the game systems with one another.

Edited January 20 by ronkul.1320

[Cyninja.2954]

5 hours ago, ronkul.1320 said:

Also the engaging game content modes for me like wvw and spvp do not give that much gold compared to lets say meta event farming (which was fun for a while too). The game modes and activities that each individual player does may not (in a significant way) make as much gold per time (grind) compared to other game modes/activities. Therefore gold being a common rewards but at the same time comparable across all gamemodes and activities should not also become a gating mechanic for those activities because  it would imbalance and intertwine the game systems with one another.

How is this still about gold? It's been covered already gold is not an issue. It is insignificant in regards to ascended and +9 infusions (ascended items are 20-25g a piece when crafted. That's 120-150g for the armor and another 25-50g for the weapons. 200g is NOTHING in Today's GW2. That's basically 1-2 weeklies without ANYTHING else, and those can be completed in 1-2 hours).

First off, what you are saying is not true. Spvp and WvW already reward significant enough amounts of gold for even those modes to be considered irrelevant gear wise. This is especially true since the wizard vault rewards became available with those modes.

You are complaining about a non issue, demanding a fix which you yourself are not even willing to commit to. If you ACTUALLY lived by what you preach, you'd start playing fractals from level 1 and upwards, not skip to T4 immediately. If you were doing that, while at the same time saving gold and working towards agony resistance (or rather used the agony resistance which dropped on the way, which is more than sufficient), the entire transition would not be an issue.

Fine, let's make this a constructive brainstorm:

Let's not assume the developers agree or disagree in any way or form on changing this (it actually doesn't matter where they stand on this). Any change to the existing system would take months and very likely at least 1 big announcement. So simply put: this is not to be expected within this mini expansion, at best with the next one, which would put this at earliest August of this year.

Here is what you can do now:

1. you can keep complaining and wait, hopefully/eventually seeing a change to this design if ever (best case in more than half a year from now, worst case never)

2. start working up your fractal rank, living what you preach and having a rather smooth transition through fractals, eventually ending up in T4 in 2-3 weeks mimicking your suggestion of a hard gate which you seem to think is a good idea

3. accept the system for what it is, befriend a few players who have access to your max fractal agony level, even if that might be higher than your actual fractal level, then work your way up from there

3. grind in another game mode, then get yourself a full ascended set with agony infusions and start in T4 fractals

Step 3+4 will likely take a few days if you are in T3 or T4, given daily fractals and recs reward around 20 gold per day and provide enough agony resistance to craft the +9s.

TL;DR:

The reason people are frustrated here is because you are preaching water while drinking wine (proverb meaning: hypocrite). If you lived by what you demanded to be implemented, which you could, the entire issue, which is already blown way out of proportion by you, would disappear.

If you yourself aren't willing to actually play the way you demand the game be changed, how is this in any way a good suggestion to begin with?

Edited January 20 by Cyninja.2954

[ronkul.1320]

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

How is this still about gold? It's been covered already gold is not an issue. It is insignificant in regards to ascended and +9 infusions (ascended items are 20-25g a piece when crafted. That's 120-150g for the armor and another 25-50g for the weapons. 200g is NOTHING in Today's GW2. That's basically 1-2 weeklies without ANYTHING else, and those can be completed in 1-2 hours).

First off, what you are saying is not true. Spvp and WvW already reward significant enough amounts of gold for even those modes to be considered irrelevant gear wise. This is especially true since the wizard vault rewards became available with those modes.

You are complaining about a non issue, demanding a fix which you yourself are not even willing to commit to. If you ACTUALLY lived by what you preach, you'd start playing fractals from level 1 and upwards, not skip to T4 immediately. If you were doing that, while at the same time saving gold and working towards agony resistance (or rather used the agony resistance which dropped on the way, which is more than sufficient), the entire transition would not be an issue.

Fine, let's make this a constructive brainstorm:

Let's not assume the developers agree or disagree in any way or form on changing this (it actually doesn't matter where they stand on this). Any change to the existing system would take months and very likely at least 1 big announcement. So simply put: this is not to be expected within this mini expansion, at best with the next one, which would put this at earliest August of this year.

Here is what you can do now:

1. you can keep complaining and wait, hopefully/eventually seeing a change to this design if ever (best case in more than half a year from now, worst case never)

2. start working up your fractal rank, living what you preach and having a rather smooth transition through fractals, eventually ending up in T4 in 2-3 weeks mimicking your suggestion of a hard gate which you seem to think is a good idea

3. accept the system for what it is, befriend a few players who have access to your max fractal agony level, even if that might be higher than your actual fractal level, then work your way up from there

3. grind in another game mode, then get yourself a full ascended set with agony infusions and start in T4 fractals

Step 3+4 will likely take a few days if you are in T3 or T4, given daily fractals and recs reward around 20 gold per day and provide enough agony resistance to craft the +9s.

TL;DR:

The reason people are frustrated here is because you are preaching water while drinking wine (proverb meaning: hypocrite). If you lived by what you demanded to be implemented, which you could, the entire issue, which is already blown way out of proportion by you, would disappear.

If you yourself aren't willing to actually play the way you demand the game be changed, how is this in any way a good suggestion to begin with?

However I did play the way you said and got to T3 (I have already paid the gold tax while leveling up slowly from level 1 in fractals the way it was meant to be like you said), and I am not complaining that getting the gold cannot be done theoretically, but complaining it is a gold tax for no constructive reason to the game mode (not for myself but for other players who many have not gotten the ascended gear or infusions yet or have many alts they want to gear up for fractals to support many roles). It is more of a false sense of gating for those that want to gate newbies from the deep waters of fractals and not a small (but as you said doable) gold tax. Yes the gold gotten from the wizards vault (either through straight up gold vault purchases or daily 1 gold and/or mystic coins) does help in spvp and wvw but that avenue is limited by max purchases (per 3-4 months) and is available throughout the whole game (all modes), whereas the gold and/or value rewards (gold value wise) gotten from those modes is far far less (base wise still) from pve which many in the communities have complained about for a long time (rewards complaining for many reasons when compared with pve).

Also much of that gold (if only in fractals) is given near the end and ascended gear drops/gotten from the pristine fractals relics are also gotten more near the end. In the end the investment is the reward. If fractals lets say had the end goal of legendary armor and/or weapons (but through much more effort than raids) then the initial investment of ascended gear would justify getting a higher tier in the end. So the second problem is that the reward through other game modes (ascended armor and weapons) is needed to get the end rewards of fractals (chicken and egg problem).

Edited January 21 by ronkul.1320

[ronkul.1320]

The proposal for legendary rewards for fractals is in consideration that legendary armor can be gotten already in other parts of the game (wvw, spvp, raids, and soon open world). I think that high end fractals (T4 end or CMs) would be a good place for it because easier grindy version are already there or will be (wvw and open world) and fractals are high end 5 man pve content compared to raids which are 10 man content.

[Feywilde.2150]

A bit of a different opinion from another new fractaller: I play on T1 Fractals right now - my scale is 21. I actually find that I cannot learn the mechanics when the group is too experienced, go too fast or do not explain the nuances. In fact, I would not be able to explain a fractal to a new player, even if I've done it a few times in a party. Sometimes, I need to solo it on my scourge to see all the failure states, mechanics and abilities to avoid, etc.

I appreciate having people of my skill level and similar T1 scaling in my party. It means that I'm forced to learn the content and explain it to others, and that I'm not able to hide behind other players who can carry me. Having read how groups expect competence later on, I know this will probably save me a lot of heartache once I hit the higher tiers. 

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, ronkul.1320 said:

However I did play the way you said and got to T3 (I have already paid the gold tax while leveling up slowly from level 1 in fractals the way it was meant to be like you said), and I am not complaining that getting the gold cannot be done theoretically, but complaining it is a gold tax for no constructive reason to the game mode (not for myself but for other players who many have not gotten the ascended gear or infusions yet or have many alts they want to gear up for fractals to support many roles). It is more of a false sense of gating for those that want to gate newbies from the deep waters of fractals and not a small (but as you said doable) gold tax. Yes the gold gotten from the wizards vault (either through straight up gold vault purchases or daily 1 gold and/or mystic coins) does help in spvp and wvw but that avenue is limited by max purchases (per 3-4 months) and is available throughout the whole game (all modes), whereas the gold and/or value rewards (gold value wise) gotten from those modes is far far less (base wise still) from pve which many in the communities have complained about for a long time (rewards complaining for many reasons when compared with pve).

Also much of that gold (if only in fractals) is given near the end and ascended gear drops/gotten from the pristine fractals relics are also gotten more near the end. In the end the investment is the reward. If fractals lets say had the end goal of legendary armor and/or weapons (but through much more effort than raids) then the initial investment of ascended gear would justify getting a higher tier in the end. So the second problem is that the reward through other game modes (ascended armor and weapons) is needed to get the end rewards of fractals (chicken and egg problem).

Wizard Vault, available at any point in time:

- 3 ascended armor chests - 400 aa each

- 1 ascended weapon chest - 600 aa

Astral Acclaim awarded per week if completing dailies and weeklies:

Dailies: 3x10+5+30: 65 minimum, 75 maximum

Weekly: 6x50 + 450: 750 minimum, 850 maximum

Weekly AA: 455 (525) + 750 (850) = 1,305(1,375) (this is equivalent to 43.5g or 45.8 gold per week if buying the 30 aa gold bags)

Gold and Laurels acquired via Wizard Vault per week (if completing dailies and the weekly): 14 gold + 20 Laurels = approximately 25 gold if converting the laurels.

That's JUST the Wizard Vault.

Reeeeeaaaallllyyyy not seeing the issue my man.That's without actually taking the cheap gold and higher lucrative rewards into account.You have no ground to stand on, sorry.

Edited January 21 by Cyninja.2954

[ronkul.1320]

Also my previous suggestion of reworking the old lowest denominator fractal level suggestion may also include fractal level progression if the player is within 15-20 fractal levels of the lowest fractal level for dailies within a tier.

[ronkul.1320]

6 minutes ago, Feywilde.2150 said:

A bit of a different opinion from another new fractaller: I play on T1 Fractals right now - my scale is 21. I actually find that I cannot learn the mechanics when the group is too experienced, go too fast or do not explain the nuances. In fact, I would not be able to explain a fractal to a new player, even if I've done it a few times in a party. Sometimes, I need to solo it on my scourge to see all the failure states, mechanics and abilities to avoid, etc.

I appreciate having people of my skill level and similar T1 scaling in my party. It means that I'm forced to learn the content and explain it to others, and that I'm not able to hide behind other players who can carry me. Having read how groups expect competence later on, I know this will probably save me a lot of heartache once I hit the higher tiers. 

If you play with others you can definitely learn the mechanics but it would also be a blind run and many co-players (especially pugs) may not bother to learn it if there were too many failure runs to learn it. I was think of having incentives/mechanics (not sure for mechanics yet) for veterans to help guide/teach new players in an organic way (similar but better to the raid training lfg and not forced/needed to but incentivized with horizontal/lower tier/less rewards). Maybe anet could make learning the mechanics in a less punishing/failure driven way and signal for people to learn the mechanics in a better way because of "how groups expect competence later on"?

[ronkul.1320]

11 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Wizard Vault, available at any point in time:

- 3 ascended armor chests - 400 aa each

- 1 ascended weapon chest - 600 aa

Astral Acclaim awarded per week if completing dailies and weeklies:

Dailies: 3x10+5+30: 65 minimum, 75 maximum

Weekly: 6x50 + 450: 750 minimum, 850 maximum

Weekly AA: 455 (525) + 750 (850) = 1,305(1,375) (this is equivalent to 43.5g or 45.8 gold per week if buying the 30 aa gold bags)

Gold and Laurels acquired via Wizard Vault per week (if completing dailies and the weekly): 14 gold + 20 Laurels = approximately 25 gold if converting the laurels.

That's JUST the Wizard Vault.

Reeeeeaaaallllyyyy not seeing the issue my man.That's without actually taking the cheap gold and higher lucrative rewards into account.You have no ground to stand on, sorry.

As I said, I am not against the gold tax because of its do-ability but because it is an unnecessary mechanic if the goal of gating players was skill gating and rail guards. Also the gold there is gotten outside of fractals so the investment/preparation is outside of fractals.

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, ronkul.1320 said:

As I said, I am not against the gold tax because of its do-ability but because it is an unnecessary mechanic if the goal of gating players was skill gating and rail guards. Also the gold there is gotten outside of fractals so the investment/preparation is outside of fractals.

I could do the math for fractals too, you really want me to show you up on another way? I've said it already: fractals provide everything you need while you play them IF you play them in order.

[ronkul.1320]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I could do the math for fractals too, you really want me to show you up on another way? I've said it already: fractals provide everything you need while you play them IF you play them in order.

But at lower level fractals the gold gain is less efficient that doing other pve activities, which detracts from playing solely fractals for the gold for it. Also it still doesn't not make it a useless mechanic for its supposed purpose of skill gating (fractal levels were supposed to be for that). Why have a useless mechanic even if you can get over that mechanic?

[Cyninja.2954]

26 minutes ago, Feywilde.2150 said:

A bit of a different opinion from another new fractaller: I play on T1 Fractals right now - my scale is 21. I actually find that I cannot learn the mechanics when the group is too experienced, go too fast or do not explain the nuances. In fact, I would not be able to explain a fractal to a new player, even if I've done it a few times in a party. Sometimes, I need to solo it on my scourge to see all the failure states, mechanics and abilities to avoid, etc.

I appreciate having people of my skill level and similar T1 scaling in my party. It means that I'm forced to learn the content and explain it to others, and that I'm not able to hide behind other players who can carry me. Having read how groups expect competence later on, I know this will probably save me a lot of heartache once I hit the higher tiers. 

Interesting you would say this, and I completely agree. It's the same for dungeons.

I've been playing with 3 rl friends lately, 1 of them very new to the game (first character in fact), one back after around 7 years and one experienced but was always rushed through fractals in the guild groups. We started fractals as early as level 15 (fun fact many forgot or never knew fractals scale you up to 80, similar to WvW).

Now what this means through is (we are up to level 30 now):

- we  were/are lacking quickness/alacrity

- we were lacking the first trait line (are still lacking 2nd and 3rd)

- we are lacking elite specializations, elite skills and originally utility skill slots

All of us are having a blast. Me as many year old fractal god am enjoying the release nature of fractals and taking it slow explaining actual mechanics to friends, not just the skips. The friend who is experienced but lacked the actual mechanic explanations is enjoying because it finally all makes sense why stuff is done, the friend who returned after 7 year break is having fun getting back into the game and the new friend is having a blast because he is not overburdened and I am breaking things down into manageable chunks.

You are absolutely not on your own here and I would recommend:: try to find a few players which are willing to take the time and go slower, it really helps with understanding the content.

Edited January 21 by Cyninja.2954

[Cyninja.2954]

Just now, ronkul.1320 said:

But at lower level fractals the gold gain is less efficient that doing other pve activities, which detracts from playing solely fractals for the gold for it. Also it still doesn't not make it a useless mechanic for its supposed purpose of skill gating (fractal levels were supposed to be for that). Why have a useless mechanic even if you can get over that mechanic?

We've already covered that it's not useless. You simply disagree with its purpose being fulfilled in this way. The irony being that your suggestion is meant to introduce a similar purpose with a far less lenient approach.

[ronkul.1320]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Interesting you would say this, and I completely agree. It's the same for dungeons.

I've been playing with 3 rl friends lately, 1 of them very new to the game (first character in fact), one back after around 7 years and one experienced but was always rushed through fractals in the guild groups. We started fractals as early as level 15 (fun fact many forgot or never knew fractals scale you up to 80, similar to WvW).

Now what this means through is (we are up to level 30 now):

- we  were/are lacking quickness/alacrity

- we were lacking the first trait line (are still lacking 2nd and 3rd)

- we are lacking elite specializations, elite skills and originally utility skill slots

All of us are having a blast. Me as many year old fractal god am enjoying the release nature of fractals and taking it slow explaining actual mechanics to friends, not just the skips. The friend who is experienced but lacked the actual mechanic explanations is enjoying because it finally all makes sense why stuff is done, the friend who returned after 7 year break is having fun getting back into the game and the new friend is having a blast because he is not overburdened and I am breaking things down into manageable chunks.

You are absolutely not on your own here and I would recommend:: try to find a few players which are willing to take the time and go slower, it really helps with understanding the content.

I agree too, I remember when guild wars 2 first came out after one and a half months dungeon runs became speed clear mostly in pugs and people would skip stuff and not explain mechanics to new players. Yes you would have to find like minded people then to do dungeons with if you were a new player then.

[ronkul.1320]

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

We've already covered that it's not useless. You simply disagree with its purpose being fulfilled in this way. The irony being that your suggestion is meant to introduce a similar purpose with a far less lenient approach.

Basically yes, I disagree with its purpose actually being fulfilled in this way (through a gold tax/sink). Also my approach is less lenient but if it could fulfill the purpose stated by others better (get rid of "t3 pug hell" or lessen it or move it to a lower tier) or there was a better mechanic that could be created, then I am for that.

A better approach could also be that fractal group levels are 15-20 levels maximum higher than the lowest fractal level in the group.

Edited January 21 by ronkul.1320

[ronkul.1320]

6 minutes ago, ronkul.1320 said:

I agree too, I remember when guild wars 2 first came out after one and a half months dungeon runs became speed clear mostly in pugs and people would skip stuff and not explain mechanics to new players. Yes you would have to find like minded people then to do dungeons with if you were a new player then.

I also think that players should be somewhat rewarded (not much but a nudge) in helping new players not just because they are friends or out of the kindness of their hearts (which is also good in its own right). I wanted more organic grouping that had similar goals and aspirations.

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, ronkul.1320 said:

The proposal for legendary rewards for fractals is in consideration that legendary armor can be gotten already in other parts of the game (wvw, spvp, raids, and soon open world). I think that high end fractals (T4 end or CMs) would be a good place for it because easier grindy version are already there or will be (wvw and open world) and fractals are high end 5 man pve content compared to raids which are 10 man content.

As you pointed out, you already have four ways to get legendary armour.

This means, you can simply go and do one of those four ways, instead of asking for a fifth to be added to fractals.

Edited January 21 by Fueki.4753

[ronkul.1320]

8 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

As you pointed out, you already have four ways to get legendary armour.

This means, you can simply go and do one of those four ways, instead of asking for a fifth to be added to fractals.

I think that that having many avenues to get BIS is healthy for the game (as long as it is balanced with one another) because it supports multiple playstyles and game activities that players may enjoy over others.

[Fueki.4753]

53 minutes ago, ronkul.1320 said:

I think that that having many avenues to get BIS is healthy for the game (as long as it is balanced with one another) because it supports multiple playstyles and game activities that players may enjoy over others.

You want legendary gear? You go and do what's asked of you. Or you don't do it and don't get your shiny reward.

But don't ask for even more ways to get it. PvE doesn't need a third version.

And if you want BIS, Ascended gear is there for you, with more than enough ways to get it.

Edited January 21 by Fueki.4753

[ronkul.1320]

10 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

You want legendary gear? You go and do what's asked of you. Or you don't do it and don't get your shiny reward.

But don't ask for even more ways to get it. PvE doesn't need a third version.

And if you want BIS, Ascended gear is there for you, with more than enough ways to get it.

I think that anet making more ways to get ascended/legendary gear (in the recent updates and the introduction of the wizards vault) is similar to the ethos I was trying to espouse. I mean if you say that anet made the game where "you go do what's asked of you" we would not have the new open world legendary armor for people who want to have a less group intensive avenue to grind for (aka obsidian armor), much less legendary armor for wvw and spvp (legendary armor came out with HoT for raids as a reward at first). This is coming from a t3 guy who still has not gotten to the "end game" of fractals where this would benefit those who are there.

[WinterBeats.1092]

On 1/19/2024 at 8:26 AM, firedragon.8953 said:

The reason why fractals are not dead like most other instanced group content is there is a built in gate system. It's not perfect, but fractals are much better at setting expectations for players of similar skill levels.

Gear should have nothing to do with player skill level, especially in raid content. 

[Linken.6345]

2 hours ago, WinterBeats.1092 said:

Gear should have nothing to do with player skill level, especially in raid content. 

it already dont since people can clear raids in green gear.

 

[WinterBeats.1092]

15 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

it already dont since people can clear raids in green gear.

Really, who's taking those players in T4's