It's kind of wild that Thief has gotten nerfed almost every patch for years.

[Tharan.9085]

7 hours ago, remorseless.6352 said:

Illusions only thing doing the damage was mesmer....

And yet both teams were playing thiefs

[remorseless.6352]

4 minutes ago, Tharan.9085 said:

And yet both teams were playing thiefs

The thieves were mere flies

[Tharan.9085]

Team with more thiefs won

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

17 minutes ago, Tharan.9085 said:

Team with more thiefs won

Secret 3rd party of thieves were in play...secretly. they were watching near spawn the whole time then went home after xD

[Tharan.9085]

1 hour ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Secret 3rd party of thieves were in play...secretly. they were watching near spawn the whole time then went home after xD

That sentence makes absolutely 0 sense

[Asra.8746]

If a class is shoehorned into 1 single role, while all other classes gets to fill multiple roles based on their choice of build, it's not good "balance".

If a class relies on others in order to "succeed" (ie: always needing to have an uneven fight or hoping others rotate properly), it's not good "balance". Nobody in their right mind thinks a class that needs to 2v1, 3v1, 3v2, etc. just to "succeed" is a good class. Nobody in their right mind thinks that just because someone manages to kill lesser skilled players while putting in significantly higher effort with a class makes that class "good".

If a class is shoehorned into 1 single traitline for over a decade, thus leaving only 2/3 choices to make at all times, while other classes gets to decide between 3, it's not good "balance".

That's not a hard concept to understand and acknowledge - it is ignorance to do the opposite. Using straw man argument is also a terrible way to try convince someone that they are incorrect.

Edited February 26 by Asra.8746
Needed to add something else.

[Tharan.9085]

32 minutes ago, Asra.8746 said:

If a class is shoehorned into 1 single role, while all other classes gets to fill multiple roles based on their choice of build, it's not good "balance".

If a class relies on others in order to "succeed" (ie: always needing to have an uneven fight or hoping others rotate properly), it's not good "balance". Nobody in their right mind thinks a class that needs to 2v1, 3v1, 3v2, etc. just to "succeed" is a good class. Nobody in their right mind thinks that just because someone manages to kill lesser skilled players while putting in significantly higher effort with a class makes that class "good".

If a class is shoehorned into 1 single traitline for over a decade, thus leaving only 2/3 choices to make at all times, while other classes gets to decide between 3, it's not good "balance".

That's not a hard concept to understand and acknowledge - it is ignorance to do the opposite. Using straw man argument is also a terrible way to try convince someone that they are incorrect.

If a class is mandatory in competitive play it's a strong class

[Asra.8746]

2 hours ago, Tharan.9085 said:

If a class is mandatory in competitive play it's a strong class

GW2 PvP is very alive, isn't it?

Who do you find people blaming first in any given matchup where they are struggling or losing?

How many times do you encounter thieves in any given endgame PvE content, who aren't just leeching?

How many times do you encounter thieves in WvW blobs, who aren't just acting as rally bots?

[Tharan.9085]

13 minutes ago, Asra.8746 said:

GW2 PvP is very alive, isn't it?

Who do you find people blaming first in any given matchup where they are struggling or losing?

How many times do you encounter thieves in any given endgame PvE content, who aren't just leeching?

How many times do you encounter thieves in WvW blobs, who aren't just acting as rally bots?

People are blaming thiefs first bc 90% of the time they don't have hands, it has a high skill floor to properly play.
Also I quite regulary see good thiefs in endgame PvE.

[Asra.8746]

Just now, Tharan.9085 said:

People are blaming thiefs first bc 90% of the time they don't have hands, it has a high skill floor to properly play.

Thanks for proving my point - though I doubt you still understand it.

Only balancing around top tier teams in top tier games (less than 0.2% of the playerbase) with a highly niche role (ie. coordinated gameplay and giga tryharding as a decapper) is surely a good way to approach balancing for the average playerbase. /s

3 minutes ago, Tharan.9085 said:

Also I quite regulary see good thiefs in endgame PvE.

Define "good" thieves in PvE; because I do endgame content all the time (multiple times daily) and I'd say 7/10 times there's no thief; and out of those 3/10 times that there's a thief, there's a 90% chance that they are leeching. So much so, that they would be better off playing something like power reaper or virtuoso, only auto attacking and spamming buttons off cd.

Also, I like how you conveniently ignore arguments that you have no response for - can't say I'm surprised considering your straw man arguments.

I said a lot of things and your only fallback was the below, even though I made sure I was being clear about why that's not a good enough argument.

2 hours ago, Tharan.9085 said:

If a class is mandatory in competitive play it's a strong class

[Tharan.9085]

17 minutes ago, Asra.8746 said:

Only balancing around top tier teams in top tier games (less than 0.2% of the playerbase) with a highly niche role (ie. coordinated gameplay and giga tryharding as a decapper) is surely a good way to approach balancing for the average playerbase. /s

Balancing around the average player is a terrible idea in any kind of semi competitive enviroment.
 

18 minutes ago, Asra.8746 said:

Define "good" thieves in PvE; because I do endgame content all the time (multiple times daily) and I'd say 7/10 times there's no thief; and out of those 3/10 times that there's a thief, there's a 90% chance that they are leeching. So much so, that they would be better off playing something like power reaper or virtuoso, only auto attacking and spamming buttons off cd.

I define good thieves as the ones in my static that easily pull their weight when they play it, the average GW2 player doesnt even know what a rotation is.
 

19 minutes ago, Asra.8746 said:

Also, I like how you conveniently ignore arguments that you have no response for - can't say I'm surprised considering your straw man arguments.

I think you might not now what a strawman argument is, considering I only said that every single mAT finalist team ran at least one thief. (Also I dont play WvW)

[Asra.8746]

Just now, Tharan.9085 said:

Balancing around the average player is a terrible idea in any kind of semi competitive enviroment.

Let me ask this again since you think GW2 PvP being balanced only around top tier games is a brilliant idea for the health of the community and game.

28 minutes ago, Asra.8746 said:

GW2 PvP is very alive, isn't it?

While at it, let me point this out as well since you just conveniently ignored it.

3 hours ago, Asra.8746 said:

If a class is shoehorned into 1 single role, while all other classes gets to fill multiple roles based on their choice of build, it's not good "balance".

3 hours ago, Asra.8746 said:

If a class relies on others in order to "succeed" (ie: always needing to have an uneven fight or hoping others rotate properly), it's not good "balance".

3 hours ago, Asra.8746 said:

If a class is shoehorned into 1 single traitline for over a decade, thus leaving only 2/3 choices to make at all times, while other classes gets to decide between 3, it's not good "balance".

 

4 minutes ago, Tharan.9085 said:

I define good thieves as the ones in my static that easily pull their weight when they play it, the average GW2 player doesnt even know what a rotation is.

I didn't ask you about thieves in your static. What I asked was the below, which is very clearly referring to the average playerbase and the groups you run into while pugging.

29 minutes ago, Asra.8746 said:

How many times do you encounter thieves in any given endgame PvE content, who aren't just leeching?

If thieves were so well balanced and they were so good, then you'd see everyone abusing the class.

This is not the case in sPvP, because thief's contribution and effectiveness literally hinges on the other 4 players; this is not the case in PvE, because you can be significantly better with your performance and contribution to the group by playing something else with less effort; and it's not the case in WvW, because thief is just terrible in blob fights to begin with since they are so heavily balanced into single target gameplay. The only place you really see thieves being a nuisance is WvW roaming; and there's a reason for that. Bad players die to thieves OR they can't kill the thief because the thief runs away (this is actually them winning, but it is perceived as they are losing because they failed to secure the kill).

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Asra.8746 said:

Let me ask this again since you think GW2 PvP being balanced only around top tier games is a brilliant idea for the health of the community and game.

While at it, let me point this out as well since you just conveniently ignored it.

 

I didn't ask you about thieves in your static. What I asked was the below, which is very clearly referring to the average playerbase and the groups you run into while pugging.

If thieves were so well balanced and they were so good, then you'd see everyone abusing the class.

This is not the case in sPvP, because thief's contribution and effectiveness literally hinges on the other 4 players; this is not the case in PvE, because you can be significantly better with your performance and contribution to the group by playing something else with less effort; and it's not the case in WvW, because thief is just terrible in blob fights to begin with since they are so heavily balanced into single target gameplay. The only place you really see thieves being a nuisance is WvW roaming; and there's a reason for that. Bad players die to thieves OR they can't kill the thief because the thief runs away (this is actually them winning, but it is perceived as they are losing because they failed to secure the kill).

If thieves are terrible in blob fights then there shouldn't be any reason for the other sides to focus me for keeping my team up and running interception. 

I kind of agree with some of what you're saying but I feel like you're running with a few old sound bites people drop a lot even if they're outdated.

I sometimes see a single target kill win blob fights. Even just locking up and interrupting a single target can cause a snowballing scramble that tips the fight. 

[Asra.8746]

1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

If thieves are terrible in blob fights then there shouldn't be any reason for the other sides to focus me for keeping my team up and running interception. 

I kind of agree with some of what you're saying but I feel like you're running with a few old sound bites people drop a lot even if they're outdated.

I sometimes see a single target kill win blob fights. Even just locking up and interrupting a single target can cause a snowballing scramble that tips the fight. 

I know what you're trying to say; but, I don't consider edge cases a good enough reason to call it effective and viable. That's like blindly accepting an outlier to be a valid data point.

For example, just because I am friends with one of the best thieves in the game and interact with them more frequently than others might, doesn't mean all thieves are as good as they are; that'd be them skewing my perception of the state of thief balance in general if I let that happen. If I made all my judgment based on how I see them perform, it'd mean thief is something simply amazing and god tier - but, it's not (and they'd say the same).

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Asra.8746 said:

I know what you're trying to say; but, I don't consider edge cases a good enough reason to call it effective and viable. That's like blindly accepting an outlier to be a valid data point.

For example, just because I am friends with one of the best thieves in the game and interact with them more frequently than others might, doesn't mean all thieves are as good as they are; that'd be them skewing my perception of the state of thief balance in general if I let that happen. If I made all my judgment based on how I see them perform, it'd mean thief is something simply amazing and god tier - but, it's not (and they'd say the same).

So, when you say thieves are you not including Specter? Specter is great in blob fights, and I've been seeing more of them in the last couple of months. That's not an outlier. I'm probably with you on the rest of it though. 

[FrancisN.9276]

3 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

If thieves are terrible in blob fights then there shouldn't be any reason for the other sides to focus me for keeping my team up and running interception.

I don't know if the other team thinks like me, but if there is a weak link in the chain, I'll try to break that first and then use my advantage in number to dominate the fight.

[AlphaReborn.1567]

4 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

So, when you say thieves are you not including Specter? Specter is great in blob fights, and I've been seeing more of them in the last couple of months. That's not an outlier. I'm probably with you on the rest of it though. 

I’m sorry but I don’t see what Specter brings to blob fights at all, and have never seen them run in any comped group at all and I play WvW exclusively.

I would love to be proven wrong - seriously… I’ve wanted Specter to be the spec that finally let me do more than roam on Thief, but it’s just not good. It needs like 2-3x more Shroud HP than it has to even be looked at.