It's kind of wild that Thief has gotten nerfed almost every patch for years.

[AlphaReborn.1567]

I'm not a Thief main, but man...  This class is getting the shaft way too often.

Mostly looking at competitive modes, but even PvE doesn't have Thief in a great spot.  I understand new/bad players may struggle with the stealth mechanic, but I don't think that's a fair reason to keep Thief development in the gutter.

As someone who routinely plays every other class, just about everything does Thief's job better.  Multiple classes have similar stealth access, similar or even better mobility, and just about everything has significantly higher damage with the only justification for Thief's low competitive damage numbers being "yeah, but stealth".  I'm not even saying Thieves need straight damage boosts or anything (though it wouldn't be horrible...), but seriously, no weapon reworks, no class reworks, nothing? 

Specter alone is still completely unplayed in WvW and has fallen out of favor in PvP also.  In PvE it's an alac bot.  They just... stopped trying to make it better? 

I genuinely don't understand most things this balance team does, but their complete and utter refusal to even consider letting Thief have a few viable build options in each game mode is absurd.

TLDR: Thief bad, buff Guardian.

[Dadnir.5038]

7 hours ago, AlphaReborn.1567 said:

I genuinely don't understand most things this balance team does, but their complete and utter refusal to even consider letting Thief have a few viable build options in each game mode is absurd.

Thief have been the meta roamer in competitive modes for at least 10 years out of 11. As for PvE, it does have viable build options both in dps build and support builds (even if core and daredevil's support builds depend on the boss's stolen item).

The only area in which thief is lacking is Zerg v Zerg in WvW.

[AlphaReborn.1567]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Thief have been the meta roamer in competitive modes for at least 10 years out of 11. As for PvE, it does have viable build options both in dps build and support builds (even if core and daredevil's support builds depend on the boss's stolen item).

The only area in which thief is lacking is Zerg v Zerg in WvW.

I wouldn’t say Thief is bad at roaming obviously, but it’s definitely not even close to what it used to be. Many other classes are played far more and frankly do a significantly better job. Willbender, various flavors of Mesmer, Nade Engineer, various Rangers all have greater bursts with better sustain and similar mobility options, just to name a few. Really, you can roam on anything, but I mostly roam in WvW and Thief numbers have dropped off a cliff as people drop the class for more efficient options.

It is entirely useless in zergs as you said.

PvE dps is situational on some builds and hard to maintain optimal dps on others. Support build alac bot is pretty much what most people want you to play, which itself was nerfed multiple times.

I’m not trying to say it’s unplayable, but let’s compare to Guardian. Guardian has multiple meta builds for most elite and core specs, and several variants for each in almost every game mode, yet continues to get buffs and skill reworks.

Thief isn’t particularly noteworthy even on the builds it has that are viable, and is almost always outperformed by everything else. Entire weapon sets need work, and an entire elite spec has failed at its intended purpose and doesn’t get played beyond being an alacrity bot. Yet, for whatever reason, the class only gets nerfed. That was my point, not that you can make it work if you try hard.

[Dadnir.5038]

53 minutes ago, AlphaReborn.1567 said:

Really, you can roam on anything

Sure, if you like a good challenge you can roam on anything. At the same time I've seen some comanders in WvW using a thief character and leading the raid successfully.

58 minutes ago, AlphaReborn.1567 said:

PvE dps is situational on some builds and hard to maintain optimal dps on others

Please, every single profession have a hard time maintaining optimal dps. There is 4 DPS builds above 40k listed on snowcrow (which is quite a good build variety) and I wouldn't say that their rotations is especially more difficult than other profession (Heck! On some rotation you don't even need to swap weapon...).

1 hour ago, AlphaReborn.1567 said:

Guardian has multiple meta builds for most elite and core specs, and several variants for each in almost every game mode, yet continues to get buffs and skill reworks.

Every community believe that other professions only get buff and that their own is always nerfed.

[kash.9213]

Specter is generally pretty great in zerg fights. Where it's set back is that Specter buffs like the boons it dishes out, it's barrier, and its Shroud buffs are more in line with how this games combat mechanics should be by being lower duration and moderate range/radius and more about deliberate and well timed windows. Unfortunately, everything else is designed with high rate of fire or upkeep so we have to spend everything to keep up with one or two things and have to scoot and position our team out of the rest or we just wont keep up. 

I would definitely take less prominence of stealth for mitigation, adjusting it more for approach and opener and for map travel, and put more reliable modifiers or residual buffs across and around our movement and stance animations, which should be the primary source of mitigation and fight influence. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

10 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Thief have been the meta roamer in competitive modes for at least 10 years out of 11. As for PvE, it does have viable build options both in dps build and support builds (even if core and daredevil's support builds depend on the boss's stolen item).

The only area in which thief is lacking is Zerg v Zerg in WvW.

not anymore *smirk* we found a way to make a small sidecar unit that obliterates boon ball, believe it or not but look at Bountiful theft boons priorty that are stripped. without that key boon, the target dies on clash.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i think the issue is, for nearly a decade thief was effectively the king of roaming, skirmishes, and small-scale pvp (especially conquest).

 

it's not that arenanet hates the class or anything, but just like with the druid + chronomancer duopoly in raids around heart of thorns, and the healbrand monopoly in most of pve from path of fire onward, they need players to log into something other than thief when they are playing the competitive modes outside of a zerg, because lack of diversity makes for bad gameplay and lack of player retention in the long-term.

 

even after all the nerfs, the majority of roamers i encounter are still thieves, and i still see one in nearly every team in pvp. i feel this is because despite being harder to play than most classes, thief still gives you the best of everything in a small-scale competitive setting.

 

i think mesmer had the same problem, for a long time. not quite as long as thief, but enough that it really hurt every the uptake of any other class.

Edited February 7 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[voltaicbore.8012]

10 hours ago, AlphaReborn.1567 said:

Guardian has multiple meta builds for most elite and core specs, and several variants for each in almost every game mode, yet continues to get buffs and skill reworks.

Aside from outright favoritism, I think at least in sPvP centered around conquest guardian's fundamental design makes it hard not to be easily useful there. Among other things, conquest favors classes that can have an extremely strong presence on the node (big high IQ surprise there, I know). The way I see it, guardian from day one has really excelled in having a strong presence (significantly helping allies in the area, severely punishing enemies pushing into the area, etc.).

Thief is both mechanically and thematically the opposite - it's all about not being obviously and oppressively present, but instead choosing fights extremely carefully, finding good opportunities to dogpile on targets while minimizing risk to the thief, and generally being quite effective at exploiting where the enemy is not around. None of these things line up well with heavy clashes - a problem that's even more exacerbated in the non-roaming large scale clashes in WvW.

While I don't see a bright future for thief's ability to stand face-to-face in combat combat in competitive, I do think Anet needs to look at PvE thief. In a lot of other games the rogue archetype has one thing GW2 thieves don't have as much of: big 'ol nuke "assassination" type moves. Sure, we have stealth attacks and stuff like Death's Judgment, but it never feels quite as dramatically effective as it does in other games, at least to me. 

[kash.9213]

36 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

... While I don't see a bright future for thief's ability to stand face-to-face in combat combat in competitive, I do think Anet needs to look at PvE thief. In a lot of other games the rogue archetype has one thing GW2 thieves don't have as much of: big 'ol nuke "assassination" type moves. Sure, we have stealth attacks and stuff like Death's Judgment, but it never feels quite as dramatically effective as it does in other games, at least to me. 

Check out the latest theif/DE thread in the WvW forum. People seem to think Death's Judgment is deleting people in a flash out of nowhere. 

[Asra.8746]

18 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

Check out the latest theif/DE thread in the WvW forum. People seem to think Death's Judgment is deleting people in a flash out of nowhere. 

The solution is simple. Delete DE.

DE was a bad elite spec to start with and was only ever made to let people RP as a sniper...ANet even admitted this - but they are too stubborn to admit they made a mistake and do a complete overhaul.

Every single thief elite spec sucks and doesn't do what elite specs are supposed to do...except Specter.

Edited February 8 by Asra.8746

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

47 minutes ago, Asra.8746 said:

The solution is simple. Delete DE.

DE was a bad elite spec to start with and was only ever made to let people RP as a sniper...ANet even admitted this - but they are too stubborn to admit they made a mistake and do a complete overhaul.

Every single thief elite spec sucks and doesn't do what elite specs are supposed to do...except Specter.

Have you seen the path of exile 2 trailer for the mercenary? Crossbow dude, can mimic an auto rifle or shotgun with grenades and combo finisher style moves. That's what I wanted instead of deadeye, but hey. 

[kash.9213]

47 minutes ago, Asra.8746 said:

The solution is simple. Delete DE.

DE was a bad elite spec to start with and was only ever made to let people RP as a sniper...ANet even admitted this - but they are too stubborn to admit they made a mistake and do a complete overhaul.

Every single thief elite spec sucks and doesn't do what elite specs are supposed to do...except Specter.

DE has been up and down for effectiveness. Even its current iteration is an offset class design considering group roles and also encounter design. 

We're all RPing and even though I liked the original version better, DE is still a lot of fun to play and can hold up and contribute in most encounters. 

[godofcows.2451]

I do remember some patchdays where it got buffed but...those are less than the fingers i've got on my right hand. A couple of those buffs got re-nerfed immediately on the following balance patch.  

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

On 2/7/2024 at 6:27 PM, kash.9213 said:

Check out the latest theif/DE thread in the WvW forum. People seem to think Death's Judgment is deleting people in a flash out of nowhere. 

It's just a qq berf thief thread where people kitten about thing for which they refuse to learn.  Nerf Thief topics are essentially witch hunting because they refuse to adapt. The game needs people willing to learn thief or its going to end up being nothing but these threads.

 

Stupidity or ignorance, either way this is what thieves have to deal with on forums lol

[kash.9213]

14 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

It's just a qq berf thief thread where people kitten about thing for which they refuse to learn.  Nerf Thief topics are essentially witch hunting because they refuse to adapt. The game needs people willing to learn thief or its going to end up being nothing but these threads.

 

Stupidity or ignorance, either way this is what thieves have to deal with on forums lol

I don't even disagree with every little thing. But they'll ignore real solutions to things to tank the whole class. It's not a huge deal and sometimes I'm partly riling them up so they might spill their guts and show what they're actually about. 

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 2/7/2024 at 5:27 PM, kash.9213 said:

Check out the latest theif/DE thread in the WvW forum. People seem to think Death's Judgment is deleting people in a flash out of nowhere. 

I meant in PvE. Like I said more big numbers coming out of teef in any of the competitive modes probably isn't going to happen (and if it does, won't stay that way for long).

[CafPow.1542]

Yeah pve and pvp are different. Meaning that he is very good in pvp (he is, no argument), doesn’t mean he’s very good in pve.

thiefs biggest pve nerf was that stealth skips died out when abolishing dungeons, until then, he was not only meta, he was a „must have“ pick. Now they might buff pve damage, i don’t mind that.

pvp wise i think it’s semi fine. Damage is there and his chances to reset a fight give him all the opportunities you need. It’s just that building a class aroubd that makes it pointless to fight it. You either lose against a thief or you „don’t win“ cause he ooc-s out.

and no, no other class will be able to chase a thief (except maybe another thief or a willy.)

Edited February 10 by CafPow.1542

[FrancisN.9276]

On 2/9/2024 at 8:32 PM, CafPow.1542 said:

and no, no other class will be able to chase a thief (except maybe another thief or a willy.)

I don't know if they have nerfed Willbender's and Necro's mobility, but last year when I played against them, I, as a DE with superspeed from SA traitline amd extra initiative from Trickery traitline, could barely catch up to them after expending all my initiatives and utilities. And you know, DE without initiative is a sitting duck because its autoattack is the equivalence of mosquito's bite.

[CafPow.1542]

2 hours ago, FrancisN.9276 said:

I don't know if they have nerfed Willbender's and Necro's mobility, but last year when I played against them, I, as a DE with superspeed from SA traitline amd extra initiative from Trickery traitline, could barely catch up to them after expending all my initiatives and utilities. And you know, DE without initiative is a sitting duck because its autoattack is the equivalence of mosquito's bite.

It’s less about chasing somebody than being chased. Nobody can chase a thief. Not even another thief.

the same reason why you struggle to chase a necro. Of all classes. The dude with 1 dash.

the reason is spectral walk, as it is with that thief ability that lets you return to your original position. You never know if the tief opponent takes it or nah and he simply can do the opposite if what you do.

now… necro has that, his worm and a dash.

thief has even more and gets protected by some stealth. There is no way somebody can outrun a thief. Never.

….which is okay. It’s just important to know^^

that is why i never fight them. Even if i outplay them, they can get out. It’s just a waste of time to deal with them.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Thieves are elusive and hard to catch, teleporting through the shadows by shadowstepping. They are experts in stealth, becoming fully invisible to then surprise their enemies with a powerful Stealth Attack unique to each of their weapons.

 

Elusive,  yes... hard to catch? No...willbender is the new thief that's faster, Elusive, and tankier. Powerful stealth attacks? No....unless u are already paper 📃 

 

I feel at this point everyone that ever hated or still hate thieves secretly want to be in the thief  cool kids club to just fit in to the point anet just gave the entire thief identity away to new especs.

Nothing thief can do to have an actual identity exclusively anymore. 

#1 stealth skills on thief get a 1s cd when we miss. Mesmers and others don't 

#2 our disengage/chase costs 6-8 initiative which is asinine compared to willbender and others' new mobility

#3 blinds are all but useless with over booning and the rapid succession of attacks

#4 acrobatics is still rubbish 🗑 

#5 stealth isn't really unique anymore now that other classes have access without the penalties thieves do

 

Jack of all trades, master of none

 

Metrics of most played classes

 

@Cal Cohen.2358 seriously, look into thief for once please? Actually take time into it?

Edited February 16 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[kash.9213]

15 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Thieves are elusive and hard to catch, teleporting through the shadows by shadowstepping. They are experts in stealth, becoming fully invisible to then surprise their enemies with a powerful Stealth Attack unique to each of their weapons.

 

Elusive,  yes... hard to catch? No...willbender is the new thief that's faster, Elusive, and tankier. Powerful stealth attacks? No....unless u are already paper 📃 

 

I feel at this point everyone that ever hated or still hate thieves secretly want to be in the thief  cool kids club to just fit in to the point anet just gave the entire thief identity away to new especs.

Nothing thief can do to have an actual identity exclusively anymore. 

#1 stealth skills on thief get a 1s cd when we miss. Mesmers and others don't 

#2 our disengage/chase costs 6-8 initiative which is asinine compared to willbender and others' new mobility

#3 blinds are all but useless with over booning and the rapid succession of attacks

#4 acrobatics is still rubbish 🗑 

#5 stealth isn't really unique anymore now that other classes have access without the penalties thieves do

 

Jack of all trades, master of none

 

Metrics of most played classes

 

@Cal Cohen.2358 seriously, look into thief for once please? Actually take time into it?

I think thieves have an identity with our improvisation and mobibility (or the way our skills can combo and weave with other skills and actions and use space, radius, and topography) but your "#3 blinds are all but useless with over booning and the rapid succession of attacks" kind of mutes that identity. Even if we carefully budget, we're going to gas out in a lot of encounters, so a lot of people are going to build to be able to dip out reliably.

I normally feel alright in large WvW fights, but running around with a couple of templates for covering people and groups really illuminates the need to build for sustained/staggered output and a rate of fire that can keep up, and thieves are designed to set up for windows of opportunity even if we have some build options that can sort of imitate that output if the encounter doesn't get out of hand. 

Edited February 16 by kash.9213

[Padra.1678]

Thief in pvp is extreamly weak compared to the other classes. It is not okay there is no way to say that it is. the only thing you can do in pvp is backcap. thats it. If you think its good for combat you need to get on the class play some games against players who know what they are doing and see what happens to you.

[Cooldown.3876]

On 2/7/2024 at 2:47 AM, AlphaReborn.1567 said:

I'm not a Thief main, but man...  This class is getting the shaft way too often.

Mostly looking at competitive modes, but even PvE doesn't have Thief in a great spot.  I understand new/bad players may struggle with the stealth mechanic, but I don't think that's a fair reason to keep Thief development in the gutter.

As someone who routinely plays every other class, just about everything does Thief's job better.  Multiple classes have similar stealth access, similar or even better mobility, and just about everything has significantly higher damage with the only justification for Thief's low competitive damage numbers being "yeah, but stealth".  I'm not even saying Thieves need straight damage boosts or anything (though it wouldn't be horrible...), but seriously, no weapon reworks, no class reworks, nothing? 

Specter alone is still completely unplayed in WvW and has fallen out of favor in PvP also.  In PvE it's an alac bot.  They just... stopped trying to make it better? 

I genuinely don't understand most things this balance team does, but their complete and utter refusal to even consider letting Thief have a few viable build options in each game mode is absurd.

TLDR: Thief bad, buff Guardian.

I totally agree with this i used to main thief in wvw, also did alot of PvP, thiefs are disgusting now, and i dont mean good, they are mostly useless in probably all game modes.

I love playing thief but not now, it used to be a good Rogue type class with super-low survivability, perma stealth, and insane burst dmg. Now its mediocre at best at everything, all classes have so much survivability skills, blocks, immune etc for example today i went into pvp with my thief, engage a weaver, unhittable for like 5 seconds, then out of nowhere 100% hp to 0% in 1 second... i mean if you gain that kind of dmg you should have to sacrifice most of you survival abilities that is atleast my oppinion... also what's up with so many classes having stealth, and dont start with reveal skills, kinda taking the essence out of thief with those.

Pre-HoT this game was great and classes felt unique.

this is not creative its just a statement, i think thief need some more love from devs, im a backstab-fanboy like classical rogue-type class, i dont want to be a mix of necro and ele.

Cheers!

[Tharan.9085]

Thief is so weak that every single thief espec got played in EU mAT finals

[remorseless.6352]

15 hours ago, Tharan.9085 said:

Thief is so weak that every single thief espec got played in EU mAT finals

Illusions only thing doing the damage was mesmer....