Condi Firebrand, How long will you be left to rot?

[Mukizo.1269]

Firebrand used to be so fun. Sure one could argue it was overturned, but which class nowadays isn’t?
 

Everyone runs around happily with their virtuoso having perma ranged 42k dmg, boon rip, unlimited utility, teleports, invul, stealth, reflects and more. No one complains, no one cares. 
Yet cdps firebrand was gutted and left to rot. Its whole identity was stripped away and scraps were tossed back in pity, because apparently it was the most broken thing ever.

I almost see no one play the dps variant anymore. Tomes feels awful now, they used to be so fun. You have no control over the tomes, it feels so stiff and clunky to have them as engineer kits, the identity is gone. 
 

How long will you let it rot? 3 more years? I think it’s time to revert the changes. Make the dps lower if you want, just give us back our tomes. Remove stab from tome 3 if you want, just let us have fun.

Edited February 10 by Mukizo.1269

[Kuya.6495]

Don't you know? Guardian is anet's favorite child? So our complaints are meaningless because we "already have everything".

[draxynnic.3719]

Guess I'm doing it wrong when I play pure DPS condi firebrand in raids anyway.

And I guess Snowcrows and Hardstuck are wrong to still include it as a featured build. Better go and tell them, I'm sure they'd like to be spared the embarrassment of continuing to feature a non-viable build.

[Mukizo.1269]

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Guess I'm doing it wrong when I play pure DPS condi firebrand in raids anyway.

And I guess Snowcrows and Hardstuck are wrong to still include it as a featured build. Better go and tell them, I'm sure they'd like to be spared the embarrassment of continuing to feature a non-viable build.

Perhaps the build does ok damage, the flow and feel, feels much worse. One of the best guardian players (especially firebrand) called Support Hero has made several detailed posts about why it feels bad to play cdps firebrand. Not just in my head as you make it try to sound like. If you disagree with all points I made great for you! Perhaps you didn't play the old version, or you somehow enjoy it more now.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Mukizo.1269 said:

Perhaps the build does ok damage, the flow and feel, feels much worse. One of the best guardian players (especially firebrand) called Support Hero has made several detailed posts about why it feels bad to play cdps firebrand. Not just in my head as you make it try to sound like. If you disagree with all points I made great for you! Perhaps you didn't play the old version, or you somehow enjoy it more now.

I played the old version.

If you're just running for pure DPS, the overall flow really isn't that much different to how it was before. Maybe you need to burn a mantra occasionally to refund pages, but F1-5-4-2 isn't really all that different from F1-2-5-4-1-2.

It does make it a bit more expensive to pull utility out of your tomes, but I generally find there's still plenty of pages unless things are really going to the Realm of Torment by express handbasket, and the option to refund pages by burning mantras is still there. On DPS builds, I've generally found it more convenient to be able to dip 1-3 skills on F2 or F3 and then be able to switch out freely rather than having any unused pages going to waste.

Also, I'm not sure if you were around when all the firebrand hate was flying around, but given how obnoxiously punitive most of the suggestions were, including by some self-professed guardian mains, we came out of it pretty much intact. We've gone back to the general (and blatently untrue) 'guardian never gets nerfed' memes rather than demands to basically destroy the specialisation, but we're still in a state where we'd probably be the premier quickdps, healdps, and dps-with-a-bit-of-support if it wasn't for how overtuned herald became. In exchange for needing to be a bit more judicious with pages, we gained a bit of flexibility and dodged not just a bullet, but a shotgun blast to the gut.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

10 hours ago, Mukizo.1269 said:

Perhaps the build does ok damage, the flow and feel, feels much worse. One of the best guardian players (especially firebrand) called Support Hero has made several detailed posts about why it feels bad to play cdps firebrand. Not just in my head as you make it try to sound like. If you disagree with all points I made great for you! Perhaps you didn't play the old version, or you somehow enjoy it more now.

As far as I knew, support hero's complaints covered the initial rework in November 2022. I read his article and agreed with him. Since then, arena net made some much-needed adjustments to the Tome of Justice page costs that greatly improved the situation for CFB. Subsequent changes to the trait line also gave us more options to regenerate pages. Has support hero published anything since then on the state of the class?

Personally, I've come to like the changes to the tomes, especially for WVW. Being able to pop into any Tome I want for the skill I need works much better for competitive modes. Tweaking my build for more pages also makes PVE fun for me again. I actually use the tome more often now, and can even blast away with searing spell whenever I need to burst. 

I find the mantra revert more problematic, considering the tome rework added some complexity to the spec. I'm fine with tracking pages and ICDs or mantra charges, but not both. 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

I like the way it is now myself. Much better flow than before. Now you can adjust your tome use without penalty whereas before you used one you HAD to use all of it or just waste it. Now if you hit F1 and then suddenly need F3 for one skill, you can then go back to F1 again. 
 

the only need I see with condi FB is the need for an additional condi.  Like we could have bleed on F3 skill 1 for example. 

[Mukizo.1269]

Here are my suggestions :

Bleed on axe autos are default, no need to pick Unrelenting Criticism trait.

Unrelenting Criticism is reworked. Spending all pages triggers Scorched AfterMath, and refreshes the cooldown of the skill.

Pages refresh every 4 seconds instead of 8.

The longest page skill on cooldown is displayed in each tome instead of the red mark.

A 1 second cd on tomes triggers after you exhaust all pages, this way you won’t  pop in and out immediately if you accidentally press the same button twice.

Renewed focus refreshes all pages and page skill cooldowns.

All tome abilities cost 1 page.

Quickfire trait trigger each time you spend 4 or more pages, instead of when granting quickness every 10seconds.

——————-

These changes would make it so you would actually spend time in your tomes, while not being forced to enter them to check the cooldown of skills. You would also not have to pop in and out constantly to spam f1, 2 and trigger quick fire. Cooldowns of page skills would be adjusted accordingly to that when all 5 pages would be ready (4x5= 20seconds) all 5 skills would be off cooldown, if you did the tome rotation properly.

 

 

[Incurve Giidis.7829]

On 2/12/2024 at 6:57 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Also, I'm not sure if you were around when all the firebrand hate was flying around, but given how obnoxiously punitive most of the suggestions were, including by some self-professed guardian mains, we came out of it pretty much intact. We've gone back to the general (and blatently untrue) 'guardian never gets nerfed' memes rather than demands to basically destroy the specialisation, but we're still in a state where we'd probably be the premier quickdps, healdps, and dps-with-a-bit-of-support if it wasn't for how overtuned herald became. In exchange for needing to be a bit more judicious with pages, we gained a bit of flexibility and dodged not just a bullet, but a shotgun blast to the gut.

lmao the only build that survived was hfb and only for its' aegis/stab spam

the playrate for condi/q is laughable, nobody's enjoying nu tomes

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

6 hours ago, Incurve Giidis.7829 said:

lmao the only build that survived was hfb and only for its' aegis/stab spam

the playrate for condi/q is laughable, nobody's enjoying nu tomes

I enjoy the “nu” tomes very much thank you.…

 

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

The current Tomes are fine, the Mantras are too similar to Mesmer tho.

[draxynnic.3719]

13 hours ago, Incurve Giidis.7829 said:

lmao the only build that survived was hfb and only for its' aegis/stab spam

the playrate for condi/q is laughable, nobody's enjoying nu tomes

They're still being used, and they're still effective. If the playrate's dropped, it's due to how strong and easy herald is.

Healbrand probably was actually buffed overall, it's just competing with heal herald.

[Titan.7853]

I play heal Firebrand, celestial Firebrand, power Willbender, power Dragonhunter, and hybrid Willbender.  I can only speak for myself, but what keeps me from playing condi Firebrand, is that when I kit it out in full Vipers gear in order to get decent dps, it has the health pool of a jellyfish.  It's also slow AF!  I feel like I am walking in mud. 

There badly needs to be a core +vitality buff (like Dragon Hunter recently got) for Firebrand.  Also, just like Dragon Hunter and Willbender have +25% movement speed available, Firebrand needs the same.  Being forced into taking Superior Rune of the Traveler just to be able to walk at a decent speed sucks. 

As a general statement, Firebrand's Mantras are very direction oriented, so unlike others healers or boon givers, you need to be right behind your party - which makes movement speed important for positioning.  Movement speed is a pertinent problem for all Firebrand builds, and we shouldn't be forced into burning Tome Pages on swiftness for ourselves so we aren't walking like a turtle.  That's just cumbersome and ensures that pages aren't available when needed.

At least until these two issues are corrected, I have no interest in playing condi Firebrand.  It needs more health, and it needs better movement speed so I can actually take Runes that are meant for condition damage.  So how would I fix the problem?

Specific recommendations:

Swift Scholar: Movement Speed Increase: 25%

A movement speed increase of 25% can be added to the minor Firebrand trait Swift Scholar, just like Willbender has in it's minor trait Righteous Sprint.  Problem solved for all Firebrand specs.  

Imbued Haste: Vitality +180

A permanent +180 vitality can be added to the minor Firebrand trait Imbued Haste, just like Dragon Hunter had added to it's minor trait Defender's Dogma.  Imbued Haste would still retain the same increased attributes while under the effect of quickness.  If there is a balance concern about added vitality to a baseline trait stacking with Force of Will (which heal Firebrands take from Honor), then Force of Will can correspondingly have it's vitality reduced.

That's it.  Please consider making these two changes, and I'd be happy to give condi Firebrand a go.  Until then, it just feels bad to me, and I'd rather play something that feels better.

Edited March 13 by Titan.7853

[Farseer.1349]

Firebrand was not overtuned. Firebrand was fine because it was equal in power to others. Just look at immortal druid. Look at 40% more damaging soulbeast(comparing to ANY guardian build). Look at unbeatable Tempest, which cannot be defeated because of its broken healing, while its condi damage is higher that guardian condi damage. And more cases.

 

Guardian is the weakest right now. It is the only class you have to give up and swap to other character to counter others. There are no other classes like guardian with the same flaw.

If the only eway to counter enemy is to swap you class and choose other character - your class definitely needs a buff. And other classes must be nerfed.

I see other classes outdamaging guardian in all game modes. Cannot compete in raids. Cannot compete in strikes(especially CM). They only role for guardian - FB in some strikes. Druid and Tempest are better as supports in mots cases. Mechanist is better too. Scourge is the king, no doubt. What is the role for guardian now? Be excluded from all content?

Barrier builds are better in tanking. I really do not know what is the purpose for guardian now. Guardian has the least health right now because of no barrier. And blocks are pretty useless vs players, since evade works better, much better. Plus enemies has unblockable stance, which renders your block useless.

At the same time guardian has not source of unblockable stance. Even guardian AoE abilities are weak and physical, thus, can be blocked. Necro and Ele AoE are better.

 

Only true guardian fans still play this class. It is obsolete right now. Even I, playing with thousands of hours on guardian find other classes more suitable for playing in current game state. Have Ele, Engi, Reve - all are better. All have broken, almost unbeatable builds. Lazy, easy builds. You don't have to be exp with these classes.

With guardian you have to be very exp. It is really hard to compete, hard to master. Other classes are easier. In raid I outplay my own guardian with Vindi/Cata/Mech, easy. Soulbeast is broken in PvE. Sword skills are broken in WvW(better dase damage, better scaling).

There are so many unbalanced abominations amongst other classes - but guardian is the 1st to be nerfed. Guardian is out of scale since PoF nerf(unfair retal removal). Then Willbender nerf(iunfair, other classes were untouched or got lesser nerf). No tanking, no healing, no DPSing. Only role - WvW raid FB support. But do all people want to play such role?

That is the issue with guardian class. No option to choose that can compete. Other classes have options. Guardian is not a king in any job. Not even average in any job.

I forgot to say. Guardian is the only class right now, that is not protected while attacking. Ranger and Thief have evades. Ele gets reflecting dome. Revenant has permanent barrier. Warrior can reduce all damage to 0(ranger too). More to say: all these classes have better self-regen, so they can overheal incoming damage. But guardian cannot do this effectively.

Mesmer - no words. Can do tons of damage while being completely invuln to damage. Necromancer - completely broken shroud. And don't tell me about CC - guardan lacks CC to counter necromancer. Scourge is immortal. harbinger is broken as hell. No chance vs harb if you play willy. since all your damage is melee, and harb is slowing you all the time. Engi - broken Holo with invis, completely broken Scrapper with tons of CC and healing, broken barrier Mech that is just kiting your around.

Yes, the main issue that you lack evades and invuln. You cannot be invuln and deal damage at the same time. You have low ranged damage comparing to all other classes. Even war deals better ranged damage. Other classes have better damage mitigation sources. Your only  source is block which is completely countered by any low damage ability. Even dome is useless.

Right now the best way for guardian is to never be alone. 1 vs 1 you will lose. Deadeye is better. Daredevil is better. Spectre is better. Druid is better. Soulbeast is better.  May continue but it is not necessary. You simply have no chance. Base damage is lower  -  go check wiki for weapon skills damage, or just go check Pounce(ranger sword 2). Base healing value is lower. Base health is lower. Armor is not protecting you, in this game heavy armor is not better than light armor. Etc

Overall, in current state guardian is almost unplayable. Even the best wvw variant(Willbender) cannot compete with most of opponents.

Edited March 20 by Farseer.1349
Just extra thoughts

[Farseer.1349]

On 2/29/2024 at 7:14 PM, Titan.7853 said:

I play heal Firebrand, celestial Firebrand, power Willbender, power Dragonhunter, and hybrid Willbender.  I can only speak for myself, but what keeps me from playing condi Firebrand, is that when I kit it out in full Vipers gear in order to get decent dps, it has the health pool of a jellyfish.  It's also slow AF!  I feel like I am walking in mud. 

There badly needs to be a core +vitality buff (like Dragon Hunter recently got) for Firebrand.  Also, just like Dragon Hunter and Willbender have +25% movement speed available, Firebrand needs the same.  Being forced into taking Superior Rune of the Traveler just to be able to walk at a decent speed sucks. 

As a general statement, Firebrand's Mantras are very direction oriented, so unlike others healers or boon givers, you need to be right behind your party - which makes movement speed important for positioning.  Movement speed is a pertinent problem for all Firebrand builds, and we shouldn't be forced into burning Tome Pages on swiftness for ourselves so we aren't walking like a turtle.  That's just cumbersome and ensures that pages aren't available when needed.

At least until these two issues are corrected, I have no interest in playing condi Firebrand.  It needs more health, and it needs better movement speed so I can actually take Runes that are meant for condition damage.  So how would I fix the problem?

Specific recommendations:

Swift Scholar: Movement Speed Increase: 25%

A movement speed increase of 25% can be added to the minor Firebrand trait Swift Scholar, just like Willbender has in it's minor trait Righteous Sprint.  Problem solved for all Firebrand specs.  

Imbued Haste: Vitality +180

A permanent +180 vitality can be added to the minor Firebrand trait Imbued Haste, just like Dragon Hunter had added to it's minor trait Defender's Dogma.  Imbued Haste would still retain the same increased attributes while under the effect of quickness.  If there is a balance concern about added vitality to a baseline trait stacking with Force of Will (which heal Firebrands take from Honor), then Force of Will can correspondingly have it's vitality reduced.

That's it.  Please consider making these two changes, and I'd be happy to give condi Firebrand a go.  Until then, it just feels bad to me, and I'd rather play something that feels better.

1 Mantras are bad. Very, very bad range. The worst ever in the whole game. 180 units means your allies must stand literally on you or very close. This can make your team very vulnerable to AoE from necro and ele. And, since retal was unfairly removed, you cannot strike back. Other supports provide boons easier - larger radius.

2 For speed you have to take that shout. And FB is really slow. Also you have to give up miving skills. And you have no such mving skills on your weapons. While DH and WB have this skills. And can take them freely - for good.

[draxynnic.3719]

As someone who just waxes lyrical about how you're somehow one of the only players around who still plays guardian (I still play it as a preferred profession and find it generally more functional than most...), you are aware that mantras are primarily a 450 range cone and the 180 radius was an addition to make giving buffs in a stack a little easier, right? Right? You do know one of the most basic things about playing firebrand, don't you?

[Gaiawolf.8261]

Not specifically related to just cFB, but did they change the animation on Epilogue: Ashes of the Just?

[Kuya.6495]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Not specifically related to just cFB, but did they change the animation on Epilogue: Ashes of the Just?

Yes