It seems like Engineer is being forced to be a support class

[Calen.8945]

It seems like since the Scrapper's quickness was changed to work with blast finishers, or perhaps before that, Anet is trying to force Scrapper and Mech as nothing but support classes. Mostly the changes over the last year have been pushing Engi more and more into a support only role. So many of Scrapper traits have been rework to be more supportive, normal trait now work better if playing a support role, and even the new weapon is just a support weapon.

Thankfully we have Holosmith, the class I've moved over to maining, and I'm happy with the buffs he's getting. Though, Holo changes feel a bit more atypical than normal.

[jason.1083]

Can't really say much to this, honestly  both Scrapper and Mech always striked me as more support oriented specs, although it's good that the option for Dps is still there.

All I can say is welcome to maining Holosmith, hope you don't get any epileptic seizures during your stay.

[draxynnic.3719]

To be precise, Scrapper was originally designed as a tank, but in practice tank and support merged so scrapper has to be a good support to be a good tank. It should still be possible to power DPS on scrapper, though.

[hitfromtheboing.8361]

This completely wrong as all engineer dps builds perform well in all game modes, lol. Condi mech is high tier for raiding. A good power scrapper makes your eyes pop. Holosmith can 1 shot with overheat in wvw (35k hit has been recorded) etc etc... I dont pvp anymore but who cares about that kitten gamemode lol.

[Bigbizz.9406]

Interesting take.

Support engi has been taking heavy nerfs in WvW for awhile now. It's fallen out of favor in zergs because of those changes as it doesn't quite compete with other support builds. It still works fine, but other options just provide more and better tools.

 

I don't pay too much attention to sPvP so I don't know the state of that there, but I figure that other options are preferred there as well.

 

PvE support engi is really strong but so are a lot of other PvE support options .

[Fwog.9387]

I can do enough damage on any form of engie to be viable for every raid in the game. I probably cannot support on core engie or holo just because no quickness or alacrity = dead in the water but otherwise i could support on any engie too. 

I don't understand the complaint. 

Added note - Engie is viable and can do anything at least in pve. Wvw they are not always desirable as they took away our quickness and on the healing front druid is far and away the best healer above everything.

Engie may not always be the best solution to a problem but they can solve every problem with enough creativity. 

Edited February 20 by Fwog.9387

[Stalima.5490]

On 2/19/2024 at 1:25 AM, Calen.8945 said:

It seems like since the Scrapper's quickness was changed to work with blast finishers, or perhaps before that, Anet is trying to force Scrapper and Mech as nothing but support classes. Mostly the changes over the last year have been pushing Engi more and more into a support only role. So many of Scrapper traits have been rework to be more supportive, normal trait now work better if playing a support role, and even the new weapon is just a support weapon.

Thankfully we have Holosmith, the class I've moved over to maining, and I'm happy with the buffs he's getting. Though, Holo changes feel a bit more atypical than normal.

If you acftually read the description of the scrapper spec on your spec screen you will see it now literally says it is a support spec.

Regardless, it does still have a strong enough pure dps line on the bottom row

 

"Scrappers are support-oriented engineers with access to gyros and a plethora of other cleansing abilities. You can aid multiple allies in large-scale battles with massive area-of-effect skills, healing and providing superspeed and other necessary boons. They are also adept at crowd control. "

Edited February 21 by Stalima.5490

[Zzik.5873]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:53 PM, Fwog.9387 said:

I can do enough damage on any form of engie to be viable for every raid in the game. I probably cannot support on core engie or holo just because no quickness or alacrity = dead in the water but otherwise i could support on any engie too. 

I don't understand the complaint. 

Added note - Engie is viable and can do anything at least in pve. Wvw they are not always desirable as they took away our quickness and on the healing front druid is far and away the best healer above everything.

Engie may not always be the best solution to a problem but they can solve every problem with enough creativity. 

Removing quickness from scrapper in wvw is still to this day the dumbest thing anet ever did. Dont change the fondemental of a trait between gamemode this is beyong noob game design... You learn this stuff in school...

[Fwog.9387]

On 2/21/2024 at 5:48 PM, Zzik.5873 said:

Removing quickness from scrapper in wvw is still to this day the dumbest thing anet ever did. Dont change the fondemental of a trait between gamemode this is beyong noob game design... You learn this stuff in school...

I wouldn't mind if they also removed quickness from firebrand. Not that they ever will. Firebrand doesn't get nerfed. Ever.

[Jski.6180]

Every thing is kind of pushed to support as just doing dps and just being an tank (and being an cc class) is not enofe to fill an class roll. At least eng can do very good dmg on its "support-tankly" version. Scraper seems to be in a good place for support all be it on an 240 ranges an kind of issues in group play.

I love to see real cc OR support chose in builds for every thing in gw2 maybe though relic and sigilges that changes your effects?

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, Fwog.9387 said:

I wouldn't mind if they also removed quickness from firebrand. Not that they ever will. Firebrand doesn't get nerfed. Ever.

Factually incorrect. Firebrand has been nerfed several times.

More to the point, I think they are distinguishing between elite specialisations that always had quickness and/or alacrity in their kit, and those that had it added for PvE purposes. Firebrand is in the first category, scrapper is definitely in the second. Plus, the typical WvW firebrand build invests pretty much everything into stability and therefore doesn't have quickness on tap like the PvE quickness builds.

[Sirvaleen.1379]

This is not what I would actually complain about concerning Engineer personally. DPS ? Support ? Holo, Scrapper, Mech ? Who cares, use grenade kit everywhere or go healer. Simple.

I'm so sick of that kitten kit I'll probably completely dump the class as soon as I'll be ready to main another.. 🤕

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Sirvaleen.1379 said:

This is not what I would actually complain about concerning Engineer personally. DPS ? Support ? Holo, Scrapper, Mech ? Who cares, use grenade kit everywhere or go healer. Simple.

I'm so sick of that kitten kit I'll probably completely dump the class as soon as I'll be ready to main another.. 🤕

Reliance on ground-target kits is one of the things largely keeping me from using engineer in content that requires the most efficient builds too. And is part of why I'm so disappointed with shortbow - even with the rework, it's still yet another ground-target-heavy weapon.

[Stalima.5490]

On 2/24/2024 at 12:46 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Factually incorrect. Firebrand has been nerfed several times.

More to the point, I think they are distinguishing between elite specialisations that always had quickness and/or alacrity in their kit, and those that had it added for PvE purposes. Firebrand is in the first category, scrapper is definitely in the second. Plus, the typical WvW firebrand build invests pretty much everything into stability and therefore doesn't have quickness on tap like the PvE quickness builds.

There is another problem, and that is the midnight king relic, basically anyone can provide might and fury making the current pvp version of kinetic accelerators close to useless other than giving blast combo swiftness when the gyro is used.

Edited February 25 by Stalima.5490

[Jski.6180]

On 2/24/2024 at 12:26 PM, Sirvaleen.1379 said:

This is not what I would actually complain about concerning Engineer personally. DPS ? Support ? Holo, Scrapper, Mech ? Who cares, use grenade kit everywhere or go healer. Simple.

I'm so sick of that kitten kit I'll probably completely dump the class as soon as I'll be ready to main another.. 🤕

Kind of the issues with eng an utility or the kit should not define the full roll of an eng elite spec it should only enchase it or your simply saying utility are the rolls and elite spec are the side roll. Its going to be an on-going issues with the eng class as there too much in the utility and not enofe in the elite spec. and every time they nerf the kits as anet will keep doing because they are out preforming any wepon in the game with no restriction the eng class will become worst and worst.

Unless elite spec become just an simple utility in them self i don't see eng braking from this cycle of nerfs.

No one wants to bare the pain of needed kit nerfs that will lead to much needed eng class buffs.

[LilBiM.3581]

2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Kind of the issues with eng an utility or the kit should not define the full roll of an eng elite spec it should only enchase it or your simply saying utility are the rolls and elite spec are the side roll. Its going to be an on-going issues with the eng class as there too much in the utility and not enofe in the elite spec. and every time they nerf the kits as anet will keep doing because they are out preforming any wepon in the game with no restriction the eng class will become worst and worst.

Unless elite spec become just an simple utility in them self i don't see eng braking from this cycle of nerfs.

No one wants to bare the pain of needed kit nerfs that will lead to much needed eng class buffs.

It is my belief that the balancers simply want a handful of builds to be viable and that's it. Ultimately whether kits get nerfed or not is not in our control, they could wake up and decide to do it whenever it makes them happy. Blaming the average joe is laughable. Kits are core to condi PvE builds that ANet wants to stick around. When they no longer think that (whatever skill or utility or weapon) should be viable it will be ground out of existence just like turrets, gadgets and anything else they don't think should be used in whichever game mode they are targeting.

Having said that, if you believe that buffs will come elsewhere as a result of kits being nerfed, feel free to state your evidence for this as well as which skills and utilities are marked for buffing as a direct result of kits being nerfed. It should be noted that Bomb Kit, Toolkit and Grenade kit have all been subjected to nerfs over the years.

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Kind of the issues with eng an utility or the kit should not define the full roll of an eng elite spec it should only enchase it or your simply saying utility are the rolls and elite spec are the side roll. Its going to be an on-going issues with the eng class as there too much in the utility and not enofe in the elite spec. and every time they nerf the kits as anet will keep doing because they are out preforming any wepon in the game with no restriction the eng class will become worst and worst.

Unless elite spec become just an simple utility in them self i don't see eng braking from this cycle of nerfs.

No one wants to bare the pain of needed kit nerfs that will lead to much needed eng class buffs.

I don't think it's that kits are defining the build necessarily. Grenade kit is on virtually every DPS build not because you're expected to sit there 24/7 tossing grenades, but because it's good enough that switching to it occasionally and throwing the highest damage grenades before switching out is almost always a DPS buff over not having it. Throw Mine is a fairly common substitute - it's a relatively small DPS loss in exchange for boonstrip and a lower-intensity playstyle.

Similar comments apply to mortar kit and heal builds: it doesn't dominate the build, it's just that nothing else in the elite slot competes with being able to drop Elixir Shell every 20-ish seconds.

I don't think it's that the kits themselves need to be nerfed to death. Buffing other utility skills would also help. If push comes to shove, though, a small cooldown on kitswaps so they're less likely to be taken for one or two skills and then dropped might go a long way.

[Jski.6180]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think it's that kits are defining the build necessarily. Grenade kit is on virtually every DPS build not because you're expected to sit there 24/7 tossing grenades, but because it's good enough that switching to it occasionally and throwing the highest damage grenades before switching out is almost always a DPS buff over not having it. Throw Mine is a fairly common substitute - it's a relatively small DPS loss in exchange for boonstrip and a lower-intensity playstyle.

Similar comments apply to mortar kit and heal builds: it doesn't dominate the build, it's just that nothing else in the elite slot competes with being able to drop Elixir Shell every 20-ish seconds.

I don't think it's that the kits themselves need to be nerfed to death. Buffing other utility skills would also help. If push comes to shove, though, a small cooldown on kitswaps so they're less likely to be taken for one or two skills and then dropped might go a long way.

I am of the mind they just need an cd after you swap out of them and give them the same rules as an wepon or other swap. I think the kits are a bit too "free" to where they make an elite spec viable or not for an given roll better then the elite spec it self. So if the best kits at the time are support aimed then your going to see eng pushed to support. If the dps kits are the best then you will see eng pushed to dps. If dps and support are realty 2 different things.

[Fwog.9387]

On 2/23/2024 at 4:46 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Factually incorrect. Firebrand has been nerfed several times.

More to the point, I think they are distinguishing between elite specialisations that always had quickness and/or alacrity in their kit, and those that had it added for PvE purposes. Firebrand is in the first category, scrapper is definitely in the second. Plus, the typical WvW firebrand build invests pretty much everything into stability and therefore doesn't have quickness on tap like the PvE quickness builds.

Its defined the meta in multiple game modes since 2017. Calling any of the changes a nerf is missing the mark. If you actually nerfed firebrand in a meaningful way you would actually break wvw entirely that is how dependent that meta is on firebrand and firebrand in pve is the end all solution to every encounter. But the main stance i was getting at is of course they removed scrappers quickness (getting back to the point) without removing it from firebrand. They will never nerf their golden child in any meaningful way. The major rework of pages doesn't count. Only elite in the game with answers to everything without having to select utilities for it. 

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Fwog.9387 said:

Its defined the meta in multiple game modes since 2017. Calling any of the changes a nerf is missing the mark. If you actually nerfed firebrand in a meaningful way you would actually break wvw entirely that is how dependent that meta is on firebrand and firebrand in pve is the end all solution to every encounter. But the main stance i was getting at is of course they removed scrappers quickness (getting back to the point) without removing it from firebrand. They will never nerf their golden child in any meaningful way. The major rework of pages doesn't count. Only elite in the game with answers to everything without having to select utilities for it. 

Firebrand was dominant support in sPvP for a couple of years but, partially because people never believe a formerly dominant has been brought into balance until it's a dead horse that is still getting nerfed, it's been basically grief-your-team tier for years. They've just now started trying to get it back to being viable, and I've seen no indication they've succeeded. Not just nerfed, but pretty much nerfed to death. 

It's possibly the only elite specialisation that has had its base mechanic rebuilt from the ground up specifically with the intent to nerf it. Every role it fills in PvE now has other builds that outperform it (herald and chrono come to mind), leaving it roughly in the middle of the road. Absolutely has been meaningfully nerfed, and if you think it should be nerfed more, there are taller poppies to cut down first.

WvW firebrand has had some nerfs, but before they got too heavy, they realised that they were running into the HoT chronojail problem: if a build has no real competition for a critical boon and you nerf the uptime, people will just want more of them to compensate. The route to breaking firebrand dominance is coming up with more builds that can produce a lot of stability, but which require the builds to be support-focused to do so that you don't end up with every Tom, DPS and Harry bringing a little and covering it that way. (I raised an eyebrow at support scrapper having its stability reduced for this reason.)

Granted, the former balance lead was caught playing favourites, and that's why we have the new team. But the claim that firebrand has never been nerfed, or even that it had never been meaningfully nerfed, is goalpost-shifting at best and deliberate misinformation at worst. Out of the three game modes, it's been completely nerfed out of one, and nerfed to a 'still useful but no longer dominant' level in another (y'know, about where balancing efforts should be aiming for). Only in WvW zergfights does it remain dominant, and that's probably an environment where you need to buff the competition instead.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 2/26/2024 at 11:56 AM, Jski.6180 said:

I am of the mind they just need an cd after you swap out of them and give them the same rules as an wepon or other swap. I think the kits are a bit too "free" to where they make an elite spec viable or not for an given roll better then the elite spec it self. So if the best kits at the time are support aimed then your going to see eng pushed to support. If the dps kits are the best then you will see eng pushed to dps. If dps and support are realty 2 different things.

Yeah, a cooldown after swapping would go a long way. Taking a kit is effectively taking several damaging utilities in one slot, and it's hard for the actual damage utilities to keep up with that (perhaps if turrets received a proper rework, but anyone holding their breath on that asphyxiated years ago). Treating them more like a weaponswap where you're locked in for, say, five seconds would put a severe brake on rotation steps that do things like 'switch to bombs, use fire bomb, switch to grenades, use shrapnel grenade, switch to...' (Which is the actual opener of at least one Snowcrows build.)

[jason.1083]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah, a cooldown after swapping would go a long way. Taking a kit is effectively taking several damaging utilities in one slot, and it's hard for the actual damage utilities to keep up with that (perhaps if turrets received a proper rework, but anyone holding their breath on that asphyxiated years ago). Treating them more like a weaponswap where you're locked in for, say, five seconds would put a severe brake on rotation steps that do things like 'switch to bombs, use fire bomb, switch to grenades, use shrapnel grenade, switch to...' (Which is the actual opener of at least one Snowcrows build.)

If it meant that the Kits themselves and the rest of the utilities/traits/weapons will be brought up to standards then yeah. Because sometimes it feels like the whole profession is balanced based on the assumption that you got access to all those skills the entire time, and when you're only using 1 kit or even going totally kitless you're actively putting yourself in a major disadvantage, and forcing a player take a particular kind of utility is just wrong.

This applies regardless of the role you're going for.

[Jski.6180]

10 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah, a cooldown after swapping would go a long way. Taking a kit is effectively taking several damaging utilities in one slot, and it's hard for the actual damage utilities to keep up with that (perhaps if turrets received a proper rework, but anyone holding their breath on that asphyxiated years ago). Treating them more like a weaponswap where you're locked in for, say, five seconds would put a severe brake on rotation steps that do things like 'switch to bombs, use fire bomb, switch to grenades, use shrapnel grenade, switch to...' (Which is the actual opener of at least one Snowcrows build.)

It would be nice at the very least give utility with cd on eng the same level of effects as they give kits 5 skills for 1 utility slot is a lot. Imagen if say turrets have 5 skills build into there ai.

[Jerus.4350]

Y’all know that next month kitless ECSU holo is probably going to be the best dps build we have, right?  Kits aren’t a problem.  Most could use some buffs because they just fail to be worthwhile.  We do still need some condi alternatives because rocket boots and flame turret are pitiful compared to kits in that regard but the throw mine updates have helped a lot on power and exceed buffs coming will go even further. 
 

I don’t want kits to go though, that’s why I play this class.  I love the idea of alternative options but that’s what it should be, alternatives.  I want kits and extra buttons to be better so you can strive to do more, but also some easier options to fall back on.  I feel like we have that with engineer as a whole though, just some things that could still use some more work (TRV holo!).

[jason.1083]

On 2/27/2024 at 7:04 PM, Jerus.4350 said:

 I feel like we have that with engineer as a whole though, just some things that could still use some more work (TRV holo!).

I used to play TRV Holo, kitless too, but after the ESCU buff to affect all exceed skills, I couldn't resist switching, now I'm basing my entire build on that trait...