Devastation needs to go back to being opportunistic traits that grant you perks as you carefully interact with enemies and your own tools, like an actual Assassin.

[Jobber.6348]

- Malicious Reprisal needs to come back. (Gain 2 stacks of Unblock with 10% Damage buff when you Block enemy hits or attack an enemy who is Blocking)

- Battle Scars needs to be retired and replaced with a version of old Focused Siphoning. (Siphon when you strike someone with Vuln)

- EXPOSE DEFENSES NEED TO BE REFRESHED ON LEGEND SWAP FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. 

- Current Assassin's Presence need to be thrown out, reworked or restored into Ferocious Strikes. (Gaining Ferocity when you dual wield) 

- Dance of Death reverted into Assassin's Annihilation. (Siphoning when you strike from Flank or Rear) 

- Aggressive Agility can stay, it's actually a good boi and has done me no wrong. 

Some new trait ideas:

Jade Vengeance

When you Stunbreak, attack enemies near you and inflict Vulnerability (20s CD)

Assassin's Fervor

When you have Quickness, gain +1 Pip. When you attack an enemy under 50% HP, gain Quickness (10s ICD) 

Edited June 7 by Yasai.3549

[Shao.7236]

3 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

- Malicious Reprisal needs to come back. (Gain 2 stacks of Unblock with 10% Damage buff when you Block enemy hits or attack an enemy who is Blocking)

Would be great if it meant double strike skills like Chilling Isolation and Deathstrike would finish their sequences so that the last hit can be unblockable.

3 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Battle Scars needs to be retired and replaced with a version of old Focused Siphoning. (Siphon when you strike someone with Vuln)

Yes, make all weapons useful. Swords will still be the best at the end of it. However I think it should be on Dance of Death altogether. Come up with something new here or bring back Malicious Reprisal there since Resistance is not just useful for escaping but also making sure Weakness doesn't destroy your damage. Having to choose in between unblockable damage after a block/being blocked Vs countering debuffs is a fair trade in between those two.

3 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Current Assassin's Presence need to be thrown out, reworked or restored into Ferocious Strikes. (Gaining Ferocity when you dual wield) 

They took those traits out everywhere, have to think of something else like Vulnerability last longer etc.

3 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Dance of Death reverted into Assassin's Annihilation. (Siphoning when you strike from Flank or Rear) 

That old trait was awful, I like this new trait, removing the stacks as a requirement and having Siphon on any hit would be better without breaking the game, I think what could make it interesting is Siphoning more health the more Vulnerability an enemy has, could even keep the 100% healing increase too. This is exactly what you're asking in the title.

3 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Aggressive Agility can stay, it's actually a good boi and has done me no wrong. 

Honestly if this didn't exist, Power Rev would be literally unplayable on anything but Vindi.

3 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

When you Stunbreak, attack enemies near you and inflict Vulnerability (20s CD)

No ICD, it's just vulnerability. If someone constantly stuns me and I stunbreak constantly, it's not like I can go mega aggressive in return, it adds a decent value to stunbreaks.

3 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

When you have Quickness, gain +1 Pip. When you attack an enemy under 50% HP, gain Quickness (10s ICD) 

How about no random Quickness but gain +1 Pip? I would say add that to Brutality. ( AND PLEASE MAKE IMPOSSIBLE ODDS -6) That would allow players to deal good damage with IO without having to mega risk because in any case that I try to use IO it's always super super risky without anything else to back it up, this makes Shiro more independent since it has most of the Quickness but on weapon swap that would also buff other legends.

Edited June 7 by Shao.7236

[Jobber.6348]

9 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

That old trait was awful, I like this new trait, removing the stacks as a requirement and having Siphon on any hit would be better without breaking the game, I think what could make it interesting is Siphoning more health the more Vulnerability an enemy has, could even keep the 100% healing increase too. This is exactly what you're asking in the title.

I guess that seems fair if it's combined with Focus Siphoning, though I mainly liked old AA was due to its damage component being just nicer. Battle Scars is just both weak AND limited. Removing the limit could make it better.

 

9 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

No ICD, it's just vulnerability. If someone constantly stuns me and I stunbreak constantly, it's not like I can go mega aggressive in return, it adds a decent value to stunbreaks.

Originally was thinking it should Daze or Stun in return then remembered that Bold Reprisal was made useless because it did just that. Yea doesn't need an ICD if it's damage and Vuln.

10 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

How about no random Quickness but gain +1 Pip? I would say add that to Brutality. ( AND PLEASE MAKE IMPOSSIBLE ODDS -6) That would allow players to deal good damage with IO without having to mega risk because in any case that I try to use IO it's always super super risky without anything else to back it up, this makes Shiro more independent since it has most of the Quickness but on weapon swap that would also buff other legends.

Yea would make sense to put it on Brutality but fear it might overload the trait a tad too much. Either way it's something for Anet to experiment regarding Pip increase over simply refunding Energy to the player as Pips are a rather balanced mechanic which sees very little engagement from the player and Devs outside of Upkeeps.

[Shao.7236]

4 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Yea would make sense to put it on Brutality but fear it might overload the trait a tad too much. Either way it's something for Anet to experiment regarding Pip increase over simply refunding Energy to the player as Pips are a rather balanced mechanic which sees very little engagement from the player and Devs outside of Upkeeps.

It does make it sound overloaded but unlike Replenishing Despair, being Boon dependent does balance it out quite well for how short it is in most cases, even in other game modes I don't really see how broken it can be since it does require a weapon swap, not legend swap, other sources of Quickness have their own quirky way to be earned on self.. It could always be it's own trait too by removing Assassin's Presence but I feel like applying longer stronger Vulnerability as a team is not that bad either.

[Jobber.6348]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

It does make it sound overloaded but unlike Replenishing Despair, being Boon dependent does balance it out quite well for how short it is in most cases, even in other game modes I don't really see how broken it can be since it does require a weapon swap, not legend swap, other sources of Quickness have their own quirky way to be earned on self.. It could always be it's own trait too by removing Assassin's Presence but I feel like applying longer stronger Vulnerability as a team is not that bad either.

Discussed Pips more here ^

Toyed with Hitting enemy below 50% HP and Inflicting Vuln but eh idk. 

[arazoth.7290]

• Assassin presence rework: Teleporting on an enemy immobilises them in 300 range at the place of teleport.

If the enemy opens on you first, their first attacks gets blinded.

• Expose defenses: Letting ut activate on legend swapping okay but only that is little underwhelming. Weapon skill 2 should also apply this.

• Notoriety: Gain might when using a legendary stance skill AND when using a weapon skill. Still applies higher might to power then condi.

• Brutality: Like said increased +1 pip temporarily+ quickness on weapon swap.

• Agressive Agility: Same like atm resistance on mobility skills. And when resistance is active, you have X % increased movement speed.

• Unsuspecting Strikes: (Gain 2 stacks of Unblock with 10% Damage buff when you Block enemy hits or attack an enemy who is Blocking) 

Copying your thingy @Yasai3549. I think this trait fits in here with the name too ironicly.

• Swift Termination: Enemy below 50% HP get 20% increased damage. Enemies above 80% HP get 10-20% increased damage, depending content.

Because the Unsuspecting Strikes suggestion change.

• Battle Scarred: Siphoning your target when vulnerability is active on them is a good idea like mentioned earlier by Yasai.

• Thrill of Combat: Enemies around you gain 1 stack vulnerability/second while in combat

• Dance of Death: Siphon damage/heal amount increased/vulnerability stacks. Like Shao said

• Impossible Odds: 6 upkeep

 

 

 

[Jobber.6348]

3 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

• Assassin presence rework: Teleporting on an enemy immobilises them in 300 range at the place of teleport.

If the enemy opens on you first, their first attacks gets blinded.

While nice, I feel like Revenants are about hard, fast, and destructive approaches, not immobilizing people. Leave that part to weapons and utilities. 

4 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Expose defenses: Letting ut activate on legend swapping okay but only that is little underwhelming. Weapon skill 2 should also apply this.

Kinda weird to apply it to WEAPON SKILLS specifically no? I mean if you said on F2, that's a good place to put it too but I wonder if Revenant needs it if it's refreshing every 10s. 

5 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Notoriety: Gain might when using a legendary stance skill AND when using a weapon skill. Still applies higher might to power then condi.

On Energy Spent then. Would be a nice middle ground. 

6 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Swift Termination: Enemy below 50% HP get 20% increased damage. Enemies above 80% HP get 10-20% increased damage, depending content

Eh I prefer it split. You do this and everyone is going to ask for their Execution traits to be buffed. That's power creep. 

7 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Thrill of Combat: Enemies around you gain 1 stack vulnerability/second while in combat

Depends on how big the radius is then. If it's like 180, it's too weak, if it's like 240 it could be too oppressive but still fair. Honestly don't like it. I'd prefer it if you gain a ramping buff during combat up to 5, and your next attack deals 2% more damage and inflicts 1 vuln per stack. Would be more fitting for an Assassin Playstyle to wait for your chance to strike. Naturally you won't pick this instead of Notoriety in group content but for Competitive, very valid. 

 

 

[Shagie.7612]

Expose Defenses only refreshing on elite usage is pretty underwhelming imo
Like if you compare it to a similar effect like Explosive Entrance, EE is way better and significantly more frequent since it comes back from dodges.

All the power legends have relatively long and/or expensive elites except Archemorus, and while it doesn't hurt, Vindi has a ton of vuln already anyways and doesn't exactly care about it.
And I guess spamming Soulcleave on Kalla over and over if you want but uhh.. lol

Having said that, I suspect Invocation is meant to be the traitline that has the legend swap effects, so I don't know that it's very likely Expose Defenses would change to on swap.

Edited June 7 by Shagie.7612

[arazoth.7290]

2 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

While nice, I feel like Revenants are about hard, fast, and destructive approaches, not immobilizing people. Leave that part to weapons and utilities. 

 

yes, If they would buff sword Immobolize fine and reduce that cast time then fine.

I just thought this was otherwise a nice addition on holding your target the moment you approach like an assasin. My inspiration came from a tiger suddenly attacking in a leap and holding the target choked (immobilisation).

7 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Kinda weird to apply it to WEAPON SKILLS specifically no? I mean if you said on F2, that's a good place to put it too but I wonder if Revenant needs it if it's refreshing every 10s. 

 

I thought more interaction with weapons and less rng, little bit more on demand and not only passive swapping. 

So that's why and I thought about F2  skill too, but I didn't know if it was overkill when I already said this.

10 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

 

On Energy Spent then. Would be a nice middle ground. 

 

Well if you put it like that, then I prefere the middle ground too. And maybe overall easier balanced too then

 

11 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Eh I prefer it split. You do this and everyone is going to ask for their Execution traits to be buffed. That's power creep. 

 

Mhm kinda true. Then just buffing "Targetted Destruction 0,5% to 1%/stack in pve only".

Because I see mostly people from pve getting annoyed if they would get that amount less dps to compete. If that 10-20% increased damage on "Unsuspecting Strikes" gets replaced.

26 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

  I'd prefer it if you gain a ramping buff during combat up to 5, and your next attack deals 2% more damage and inflicts 1 vuln per stack. Would be more fitting for an Assassin Playstyle to wait for your chance to strike. Naturally you won't pick this instead of Notoriety in group content but for Competitive, very valid. 

 

 

Skip my idea on that, this is more assasin/striking/opportunity taking yes.

And yes doesn't gets picked in pve, because it's a more competitive trait, but every class has that little bit and that's fine I guess. 

[youle.5824]

As much as I want buff that would apply to power herald as well, this is bad balance. Devastation is now strongest line and vindis either take dev invo or dev salv. making retribution the weak power line, inv starting to be mehh as well. So buffing devastation is just going to make that worse. the resistance on mov skill already made dev mandatory by how strong it is.

[arazoth.7290]

If the foundation is off then how can you build further on it, this applies to every class to be honest

[Jobber.6348]

1 hour ago, youle.5824 said:

As much as I want buff that would apply to power herald as well, this is bad balance. Devastation is now strongest line and vindis either take dev invo or dev salv. making retribution the weak power line, inv starting to be mehh as well. So buffing devastation is just going to make that worse. the resistance on mov skill already made dev mandatory by how strong it is.

Funny you say this because Retribution is getting a buff next Major Balance patch. Also this isn't a "Buff Devastation" thread more so a "revert Devastation to how it was in the past before Anet's stupid Battle Scars rework ruined everything"

[arazoth.7290]

10 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Funny you say this because Retribution is getting a buff next Major Balance patch. 

Well the longer might is good for more might stacks yes. But overall Retribution still needs some more attention.

 

[arazoth.7290]

And same time Dwarf stance feels overall not that significant compared to the other 3 in all content.

For starter 0,5 second cast time heal and not 1 second. 0,5 second elite skill cast instead of that long one to get the effects.

These things to start with, but I feel dwarf stance is missing still something beside that. Maybe more benefits sharing with allies on certain abilities like dwarf hammers upkeep, Forced engagement enemies affected give lesser damage to your allies longer.

Rough ideas idk, not the thread to put it in but maybe an idea to talk about dwarf in another in the future by someone or me .

[Jobber.6348]

5 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

And same time Dwarf stance feels overall not that significant compared to the other 3 in all content.

For starter 0,5 second cast time heal and not 1 second. 0,5 second elite skill cast instead of that long one to get the effects.

These things to start with, but I feel dwarf stance is missing still something beside that. Maybe more benefits sharing with allies on certain abilities like dwarf hammers upkeep, Forced engagement enemies affected give lesser damage to your allies longer.

Rough ideas idk, not the thread to put it in but maybe an idea to talk about dwarf in another in the future by someone or me .

Dwarf definitely sees plenty of use in WvW for both roaming and zerging. It's also used in Open Worlds as well as some structured content. 

If we are talking about Dwarf, there needs to be some changes to Forced Engagement and nothing else really. Everything else are actually rather solid and has been solid for years. Forced Engagement keeps being that one skill that Anet fiddles with because people overcomplain about how powerful it is despite being a slow projectile taunt. Off the top of my head, I think Force Engagement should be a single target Taunt that's Unblockable, Unblindable. You're taunting ONE PERSON afterall, should make it strong and reliable. Also, it shouldn't have a Projectile AND Windup, either Projectile with no windup or a Windup and no Projectile.

Now talking about Retribution on the other hand, it's not perfect and there are several things I would change about it for sure, I'll gather my ideas in a Retribution thread, not clogging up the Devastation thread. 

 

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Dwarf definitely sees plenty of use in WvW for both roaming and zerging. It's also used in Open Worlds as well as some structured content. 

If we are talking about Dwarf, there needs to be some changes to Forced Engagement and nothing else really. Everything else are actually rather solid and has been solid for years. Forced Engagement keeps being that one skill that Anet fiddles with because people overcomplain about how powerful it is despite being a slow projectile taunt. Off the top of my head, I think Force Engagement should be a single target Taunt that's Unblockable, Unblindable. You're taunting ONE PERSON afterall, should make it strong and reliable. Also, it shouldn't have a Projectile AND Windup, either Projectile with no windup or a Windup and no Projectile.

Now talking about Retribution on the other hand, it's not perfect and there are several things I would change about it for sure, I'll gather my ideas in a Retribution thread, not clogging up the Devastation thread. 

 

For zerging use is Stability road, beside that nobody would take it for zergs if it wasn't there. So says enough also. For roaming there are a lot better options and dwarf is the last I would take myself.  

So aside zergs stability road only not worth, roaming with this I don't count because the others are better. Same for openworld, you can make everything work in there but there are better options.

In instances it can get used really situational. But again this is for the stability road....

In pvp it's the worst joke of them all.

 

Conclusion : hard carried by stability road, noting more for all of these in a mediocre way. Dwarf Stance is at the bottom of my list overall for using it.

You may react if you like, but I will hold further comments for a specific talk thread post about this.

 

[Jobber.6348]

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

For zerging use is Stability road, beside that nobody would take it for zergs if it wasn't there. So says enough also. For roaming there are a lot better options and dwarf is the last I would take myself.  

So aside zergs stability road only not worth, roaming with this I don't count because the others are better. Same for openworld, you can make everything work in there but there are better options.

In instances it can get used really situational. But again this is for the stability road....

In pvp it's the worst joke of them all.

Cannot disagree enough as I use it plenty in both WvW and PvP. 

Single handedly lets me win fights because people bringing CC spam cannot budge me while between hammer upkeep and RotG casts into them blowing their load. Yes Stab road is the strongest feature of Jalis but underselling everything else are major L takes.

Let's just go over the absolutely good parts about Jalis Stance shall we?

- Jalis heal is the ONLY thing in Revenant's kit that allows them to burst-cleanse conditions. It cleanses 5, gives Resolution and actually has the highest base healing without any conditions for Revenant. This is an absolute plus for Jalis' kit. 

- Stability Road. Nuff said.

- Vengeful Hammers is not only damage, it also has chip healing and 20% Strike and Condition damage reduction. You can sit on road with this and tank 3 people with some careful usage of dodges and defensive weapon skills. Also it has relatively cheap upkeep at -6.

- RotG is an expensive stunbreak but when used preemptively into an enemy burst combo, you significantly reduce the damage they deal to you. Can even be traited to have a pocket auto cast of it as well as resists Conditions. You can use this together with Glaring Resolve in order to confirm the RotG cast. I myself use it heavily during havocs or zerging because it lets my subgroup be absolute gigachad tanks that can surf over the enemy zergs without getting too hurt. 

And heck, even the current meta roaming build which is Shortbow Shiro Renegade uses Jalis/Shiro.