Can more awakened be still created?

[Krinstin.6287]

As title says, in spite of Joko's death, we still have awakened, now with free will, roaming the world. Given the awakened themselves were made by the necromancers using Joko's magic with just a lil from him to make them bound to Joko's will.. what now? The recipe is right there, can more be created without that extra Joko touch?

[Kalavier.1097]

As far as I know, technically yes new awakened can be made, but it probably is a much more selective/careful process due to government changes and Joko being gone. 

[Dean Calaway.9718]

Same reason you still have spores, nightmare krait, twisted watchworks knights...

Also why was there no risen down the coast of Elona but there are risen in the coast of Cantha? If Zaithan influence stretched that far south, why aren't there any risen further north too like in Drizzlewood... ?

The answer is don't think about it.

[CETheLucid.3964]

If Aurene felt like it I guess. Practically, no. The ones that remain will remain until they're rekilled. Outside of of an active force to destroy them they're functionally immortal. Even with Joko alive they had a surprising amount of autonomy outside of being unable to directly disobey orders from Joko or authority derived from Joko. This was something Awakened Koss used to get out of doing a lot of things until they threw him in a cave with a basic order he couldn't really wiggle out of.

[Trejgon.9367]

Technical possibility should exist, the question would be if there is anyone out there with enough knowledge of the process, and expertise in magical manipulation to pull it off.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Same reason you still have spores, nightmare krait, twisted watchworks knights...

Also why was there no risen down the coast of Elona but there are risen in the coast of Cantha? If Zaithan influence stretched that far south, why aren't there any risen further north too like in Drizzlewood... ?

The answer is don't think about it.

So instead of actually looking at the question, you went in a negative and hostile way that isn't even the purpose of the question in general? He isn't saying "Oh why are there still awakened enemies" he's saying "Can Vabbi still turn people into Awakened."

Also the Risen comment makes zero sense and if you looked at a map you'd see the obvious reason why. If you don't want to think about the lore of things, why are you in the lore forum?

18 minutes ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

Technical possibility should exist, the question would be if there is anyone out there with enough knowledge of the process, and expertise in magical manipulation to pull it off.

I mean, there is the necropolis in Vabbi and Joko's death was when there still was a lot of Awakened infrastructure left. The only thing they may not be able to do is revive dead Awakened, just make new ones from willingly participants as Vabbi's culture has shifted a lot toward that.

 

38 minutes ago, CETheLucid.3964 said:

If Aurene felt like it I guess. Practically, no. The ones that remain will remain until they're rekilled. Outside of of an active force to destroy them they're functionally immortal. Even with Joko alive they had a surprising amount of autonomy outside of being unable to directly disobey orders from Joko or authority derived from Joko. This was something Awakened Koss used to get out of doing a lot of things until they threw him in a cave with a basic order he couldn't really wiggle out of.

I mean, even when Joko was stuck in the domain of the lost they were making Awakened without him. 

And the amount of autonomy kinda varied.

Edited June 12 by Kalavier.1097

[Dean Calaway.9718]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Also the Risen comment makes zero sense and if you looked at a map you'd see the obvious reason why.

If risen are all the way down south, they'd also be all over the coast of Elona which is 10 times closer to Orr.

[Kalavier.1097]

56 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

If risen are all the way down south, they'd also be all over the coast of Elona which is 10 times closer to Orr.

The coast of Elona which has landmass separating it as well as isn't just a straight shot from Orr. Plus Joko would've cleaned it up quickly, where as Cantha had to deal with the collaspe of Kaineng city which means removing sources of corruption and bodies is a huge task.

Also there is no reason why risen would ever be found in Drizzlewood coast, which is on the opposite side of Kryta and has no direct connection to the waters around Orr.

[Dean Calaway.9718]

9 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Joko would've cleaned it up quickly, where as Cantha had to deal with the collaspe of Kaineng city

Yet they built New Kaineng, the most impressive city in Tyria... So far... but getting rid of those risen was just too much for them.

Meanwhile Joko, who couldn't even get rid of Sunspears after donkey years cleared them right up...

[Kalavier.1097]

27 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Yet they built New Kaineng, the most impressive city in Tyria... So far... but getting rid of those risen was just too much for them.

Meanwhile Joko, who couldn't even get rid of Sunspears after donkey years cleared them right up...

Completely ignoring the whole aspect of New Kaineng is like maybe a fourth of the total size of Kaineng city from before, and the ruins of the city are collapsed and layered and literally filled with countless dead.

And you do know that Joko literally forced the sunspears into hiding and loner status and the only reason they actually reemerged was because outsider invasions (two at the same time) destablized the balance of power enough that people on Istan started getting unhappy, allowing the Sunspears a foothold to finally get recruits.

The sunspears were literally not even an issue of any shape or form until after Balthazar died. 

[Trejgon.9367]

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

And you do know that Joko literally forced the sunspears into hiding and loner status and the only reason they actually reemerged was because outsider invasions (two at the same time) destablized the balance of power enough that people on Istan started getting unhappy, allowing the Sunspears a foothold to finally get recruits.

To elaborate on that, in core PoF story sunspears are not even a handful of survivors, scattered along whole continent. Discovery and securing of griffons post PoF is what allowed them to even start communicating. Additionally while it is possible to tell Amnoon to ally themselves with sunspears, their first reaction was suggestion is made, is doubting if they are even any left.

As for the people of Istan "starting" to get unhappy, it was my perception of Dawnbreak episode, that Istan was held under oppressive boot and unhappy for all this time. Temporary Joko absence, together with rebuilding of sunspears communications with griffon use allowed emergence of new spearmarshal, and staging of actual revolt with any hope of success. One thing that in geneal I took away from LWS4 Joko arc, is that only Vabbi had it nice with Joko, Kourna and Istan both have suffered under his reign (former as a vengeance for Turai Ossa, latter for being main hq for sunspears).

4 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

New Kaineng, the most impressive city in Tyria... So far...

New Kaineng is not even remotely as impressive as old kaineng was, and architecturally speaking, I find divinity's reach to be more impressive than new Kaineng tbh.

[Dean Calaway.9718]

58 minutes ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

I find divinity's reach to be more impressive than new Kaineng tbh.

Run of the mill medieval walked city lit by fire VS skyscraper city with electricity. 🤣

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, Krinstin.6287 said:

As title says, in spite of Joko's death, we still have awakened, now with free will, roaming the world. Given the awakened themselves were made by the necromancers using Joko's magic with just a lil from him to make them bound to Joko's will.. what now? The recipe is right there, can more be created without that extra Joko touch?

In theory, yes.

But also in theory, no.

To elaborate: By all presentation, the Awakened are merely sapient or psuedo-sapient undead. This kind of undead is not a unique trait to Joko, however it is fairly rare. While we've seen many undead armies (such as Khilbron's, Oberan's, and Zoldark's), not many were sapient undead. But a handful did exist, including in GW2 (see: Galrath). So in theory, yes, more sapient undead - and thus "Awakened" - can be created.

However, in GW2, particularly Jahai Bluffs, it is widely treated like Joko was the only one who could create Awakened. All the priests and whatnot who created Awakened in Path of Fire did so by channeling Joko's energy. One of the major subplots of the episode is the Awakened dealing with the fact that they are once again mortal - if they die, they die for good this time. No more second chances.

One could make the argument that Awakened are very specifically the sapient undead created by Joko that utilized mummification, wrappings, and tar to preserve their undeadness without / with little decay. And by this definition, no, Awakened cannot be made again. But other sapient undead can - though whether an Awakened can be made said "other sapient undead" is up in the air.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

10 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Also why was there no risen down the coast of Elona but there are risen in the coast of Cantha? If Zaithan influence stretched that far south, why aren't there any risen further north too like in Drizzlewood... ?

Simple: because Joko had them wiped out.

Kaineng's population was huge, and this huge population got widely decimated and turned into risen. And unlike Elona, Cantha was not a united nation after the tsunami - they suffered rebellion and pirate warfare following the Zhaitan Disaster, and after that the Purists remained a thorn in their side both externally and internally (much like White Mantle), and they were trying to utilize the Risen to regain power (much like how White Mantle prolonged the centaur war in an attempt to regain power).

Joko did not have this issue. The Sunspears were broken by the time the Elder Dragon rose, and Elona was more protected from the tsunami due to being at an angle to its approach compared to Cantha that took the strike head-on. Joko had warred with Zhaitan's forces on the border the entire time, and would have wiped out the remaining unchained once Zhaitan died.

10 hours ago, CETheLucid.3964 said:

The ones that remain will remain until they're rekilled. Outside of of an active force to destroy them they're functionally immortal.

I wouldn't say they're functionally immortal, as the Boneyard in Vabbi shows, the Awakened do decay and fall apart over time even with Joko's power maintaining them.

8 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

If risen are all the way down south, they'd also be all over the coast of Elona which is 10 times closer to Orr.

That's... not how it works.

 

[Kalavier.1097]

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

However, in GW2, particularly Jahai Bluffs, it is widely treated like Joko was the only one who could create Awakened. All the priests and whatnot who created Awakened in Path of Fire did so by channeling Joko's energy. One of the major subplots of the episode is the Awakened dealing with the fact that they are once again mortal - if they die, they die for good this time. No more second chances.

I'd counter this with the core story of PoF which included the Awakened robbing graveyards north of the wall and even sabotaging some farms at the border so they could kill people for punishment and take them to be made Awakened and thrown at the enemy forces. The Necropolis judge event includes this as well, with people being sent to be Awakened. It's not quite like Joko was channeling power to them all, especially while chained up in the domain of the lost. And He has taught other necromancers his style of magics, even if some of them rebelled and fled (the scourges)

Jahai Bluffs was dealing with a loss of faith and direction for the Awakened, and while they may not be able to endlessly revive an Awakened, it doesn't perhaps mean they can't go and use the ritual on a living person.

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I wouldn't say they're functionally immortal, as the Boneyard in Vabbi shows, the Awakened do decay and fall apart over time even with Joko's power maintaining them.

I'd include the Awakened in Jahai bluffs who has forgetten his former life entirely and has to be reminded of it. There is limits, but that could also be linked to how favored they are by Joko. Random servants/grunts fading faster then a skilled officer or champion.

9 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

To elaborate on that, in core PoF story sunspears are not even a handful of survivors, scattered along whole continent. Discovery and securing of griffons post PoF is what allowed them to even start communicating. Additionally while it is possible to tell Amnoon to ally themselves with sunspears, their first reaction was suggestion is made, is doubting if they are even any left.

As for the people of Istan "starting" to get unhappy, it was my perception of Dawnbreak episode, that Istan was held under oppressive boot and unhappy for all this time. Temporary Joko absence, together with rebuilding of sunspears communications with griffon use allowed emergence of new spearmarshal, and staging of actual revolt with any hope of success. One thing that in geneal I took away from LWS4 Joko arc, is that only Vabbi had it nice with Joko, Kourna and Istan both have suffered under his reign (former as a vengeance for Turai Ossa, latter for being main hq for sunspears).

 

One thing that helped spark the rebellion was that with the damages caused by the invasion of Forged and Branded, the nobility/Vabbi was taking even more supplies then they normally did, causing resource shortages at Istan. This made the population uneasy and start rebelling, which the slowly regrowing sunspears took advantage of combined with a safe haven in the grand library.

[Trejgon.9367]

10 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Run of the mill medieval walked city lit by fire VS skyscraper city with electricity. 🤣

 

That "run of the mill medieval walked city lit by fire" still stands taller with more complex architecture. Hence, in terms of architecture it is more impressive. New Kaineng in this regard is basically huge wall, with city climbing up from inside towards this wall. Divinity's Reach in contrast is multilayered supercastle, with living building stacked everywhere even on the bridges leading up to higher portions of the city. Superfortress standing ontop of huge cavern and catacombs complex, so the fact it even stands stable is architectural engineering feat on it's own.

I'd also not call New Kaineng a "skyscrapper city" they don't have nearly enough of proper skyscrappers to be called that. They have very few buildings that stands taller than their outer wall, and big chunk of them are placed on that wall in the first place.

[Dean Calaway.9718]

3 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

still stands taller with more complex architecture

Got its wall blow up to hell by centaurs, creatures that live in wood huts with barely the technology to work metal.

[Dean Calaway.9718]

3 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

still stands taller with more complex architecture. Hence, in terms of architecture it is more impressive

New Kaineng wall is twice as tall.

[Trejgon.9367]

30 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Got its wall blow up to hell by centaurs, creatures that live in wood huts with barely the technology to work metal.

I have no idea where you got that from, divinity's reach walls were not blown up (and definitelly not to hell lol) by centaurs, like ever. The only time outer wall was breached, it was with massive surprise attack with huge magical bombardment by white mantle (in LWS3), that also involved infiltration team striking from the inside. And even then, they failed to do anything meaningful and were repelled back within scope of single story instance.

The only time centaurs got anyhow close to threatening the city itself was during raid of shaemoor, which could happen only due to Caduceus betrayal, and only then, the primary threat was not that they could somehow meaningfully besiege the city, but because they were raiding primary source of food supply for that city.

29 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

New Kaineng wall is twice as tall.

Than whole DR? nope. Than DR's outer wall? sure enough it may be.

[Dean Calaway.9718]

4 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

New Kaineng in this regard is basically huge wall, with city climbing up from inside towards this wall. Divinity's Reach in contrast is multilayered supercastle, with living building stacked everywhere even on the bridges leading up to higher portions of the city.

Minister Li: I have transport available on the roof. Should get us to Joon fairly quickly.

The Commander: Incredible. There's nothing in Tyria I can even compare this place to.

Detective Rama: I still remember the first time you brought me up here, sir. I was...in awe.

--

Marjory Delaqua: Welcome to New Kaineng, Commander.

The Commander: This is...incredible.

--

Gorrik: This is...incredible. The entire facility is underwater?

Captain Mai Trin: Seventy fathoms deep, give or take.

Gorrik: Can it really handle the water pressure?

Marjory Delaqua: If it can't, we'll be fish food soon enough.

Gorrik: Actually, we'd be vaporized.

[Dean Calaway.9718]

10 minutes ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

The only time outer wall was breached, it was with massive surprise attack with huge magical bombardment by white mantle (in LWS3)

It collapsed sometime between 1324 and early 1325 AE due to a rushed construction and being placed atop a cavernous sinkhole which local Krytans had used as tombs in the past.

There are conflicting stories on what happened the night of the collapse.

There were also rumors of strange noises coming from the depths of the Great Collapse, which were associated with pre-existing rumors of stories of drakes living in the city's sewer system.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

I have no idea where you got that from, divinity's reach walls were not blown up (and definitelly not to hell lol) by centaurs, like ever. The only time outer wall was breached, it was with massive surprise attack with huge magical bombardment by white mantle (in LWS3), that also involved infiltration team striking from the inside. And even then, they failed to do anything meaningful and were repelled back within scope of single story instance.

Thing is, the outer walls weren't even breached then. The White Mantle only got forces inside by mesmer portals, their bombardment did no damage and they didn't even get to try to breach the gates.

53 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

It collapsed sometime between 1324 and early 1325 AE due to a rushed construction and being placed atop a cavernous sinkhole which local Krytans had used as tombs in the past.

There are conflicting stories on what happened the night of the collapse.

There were also rumors of strange noises coming from the depths of the Great Collapse, which were associated with pre-existing rumors of stories of drakes living in the city's sewer system.

And none of that was caused by Centaurs. 

[Dean Calaway.9718]

1 minute ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

And none of that was caused by Centaurs.

Sure, Centaurs were at it but sewer Drakes did it 🤣

Just gonna leave this here, because it's funny.

5 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

Superfortress standing ontop of huge cavern and catacombs complex, so the fact it even stands stable is architectural engineering feat on it's own.

 

58 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

It collapsed sometime between 1324 and early 1325 AE due to a rushed construction and being placed atop a cavernous sinkhole which local Krytans had used as tombs in the past.

 

1 hour ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

The Commander: Incredible. There's nothing in Tyria I can even compare this place to.

 

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

Sure, Centaurs were at it but sewer Drakes did it 🤣

Just gonna leave this here, because it's funny.

You literally cannot claim "Centaurs did it" and then immediately go "We have no idea what caused that portion of the wall to collaspe"

You would think that if the Centaurs literally managed to cause massive damage to a portion of the city, somebody would actually talk about that hmm?

Rather then the only time they've reached the walls being the human tutorial?

[Dean Calaway.9718]

2 hours ago, Trejgon.9367 said:

None of these quotes undermine anything under my point.

Cope.