Scepter of Orr Too Much Trouble? SCIENCE!

[bargamer.1762]

So there's multiple issues with the Scepter of Orr. It's not user-friendly, unintended consequences, there's only one... But we've encountered a problem like that before: Balthazar's Spear. I propose the same solution: Make a super-dumbed-down version, the "Wand of Orr," that is much less powerful, but also has much less risk. Heck, make it a consumable. The product description should read something like: "So dumbed-down, your average bookah soldier can use it without hurting themselves." Not a sentient weapon, no collateral damage, and mass-produced so you can fight Titans on multiple fronts.

[OwliciousMuffin.4312]

But why? It would be overkill. Whenever we encounter the titans they get slapped easily. Geer nearly dies to a wizard who says themselves they are weak because they havent used magic in ages.

Decima also nearly dies when we run at her with just a scout group. This time there is not even a wizard around.

The third time they also arent a threat at all and we let them escape because we are for some reason afraid of a third titan. The titans never gave us any reason to be afraid of them. They are a nuisance at best. The average astral ward soldier could likely slap them themselves.  Nevermind an actual true wizard like Lhyr or Dagda who isnt out of shape like Waiting Sorrow. 
 

In the words of the astral ward: They are locally threatening but no real concern for Tyria so far, unlike the Kryptis or Elder Dragons. A good task to give to this new Krytan Alliance that is low stakes and makes them feel like they did something great. We and the Astral Ward are like parents to kids. Give the little ones something to help you with but that is not really important or dangerous.

 

But for real are the titans supposed to feel threatening? Because so far they just dont. The stakes are very low compared to previous story opponents. Which I personally like that not everything is a world ending threat but i am not sure if that is intended.

[Astralporing.1957]

8 hours ago, bargamer.1762 said:

So there's multiple issues with the Scepter of Orr. It's not user-friendly, unintended consequences, there's only one... But we've encountered a problem like that before: Balthazar's Spear. I propose the same solution: Make a super-dumbed-down version, the "Wand of Orr," that is much less powerful, but also has much less risk. Heck, make it a consumable. The product description should read something like: "So dumbed-down, your average bookah soldier can use it without hurting themselves." Not a sentient weapon, no collateral damage, and mass-produced so you can fight Titans on multiple fronts.

Problem is, Scepter is not a weapon. It is a tool of control. Weaken the control, and it suddenly doesn't work as well as it did before. Make it a consumable, and the control stops when the item gets used up.

[bargamer.1762]

On 8/29/2024 at 6:44 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Problem is, Scepter is not a weapon. It is a tool of control. Weaken the control, and it suddenly doesn't work as well as it did before. Make it a consumable, and the control stops when the item gets used up.

So if all it does is a back-liner pins one down so the front line can beat on it, that's fewer casualties. The reason for making it a consumable is because the dumbed-down Spears of Buckethead were consumables. If you'd rather make it a weapon kit or a Special Action, that's fine too.

I'm just spit-balling, why the hate?

[Cronospere.8143]

Spoiler title.. please adjust for those who havent got to that point.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 8/29/2024 at 8:07 AM, OwliciousMuffin.4312 said:

But why? It would be overkill. Whenever we encounter the titans they get slapped easily. Geer nearly dies to a wizard who says themselves they are weak because they havent used magic in ages.

Decima also nearly dies when we run at her with just a scout group. This time there is not even a wizard around.

The third time they also arent a threat at all and we let them escape because we are for some reason afraid of a third titan. The titans never gave us any reason to be afraid of them. They are a nuisance at best. The average astral ward soldier could likely slap them themselves.  Nevermind an actual true wizard like Lhyr or Dagda who isnt out of shape like Waiting Sorrow. 
 

In the words of the astral ward: They are locally threatening but no real concern for Tyria so far, unlike the Kryptis or Elder Dragons. A good task to give to this new Krytan Alliance that is low stakes and makes them feel like they did something great. We and the Astral Ward are like parents to kids. Give the little ones something to help you with but that is not really important or dangerous.

 

But for real are the titans supposed to feel threatening? Because so far they just dont. The stakes are very low compared to previous story opponents. Which I personally like that not everything is a world ending threat but i am not sure if that is intended.

i feel like you're vastly overestimating the power levels here. you should realise in the fight against decima we also had the pact commander and a member of destiny's edge which is imbued with aurene's power, and these two alone are stronger than the vast majority of tyrians. on top of this, both of the titans had known weaknesses which had already been exploited once before, while of the strengths of the third titan are unknown.

 

something to keep in mind is those fighting these things in the original game had resurrection skills at their disposal, and had to use them--alot. the average power levels in the modern era have fallen way off to the point where the pact commander, one of the strongest in tyria, is probably barely equal to an ascended hero from post-searing, if that. this is shown especially in living world season where we face only a single mursaat and have to use the shining blade to defeat him, when they were mowed down like weeds in the past, including the generals who were likely at least close to or on par with lazarus. some further evidence of this is us fighting a cairn in bastion of the penitent which is an elite legendary boss while in the original game they're just super mooks to the player character.

 

the short of it is, its considerably reckless to go in all guns a-blazing with a force that once turned an entire country into a nuclear wasteland. the charr were just the conduit, it was really the titans who were responsible for all the destruction.

Edited August 31 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i feel like you're vastly overestimating the power levels here. you should realise in the fight against decima we also had the pact commander and a member of destiny's edge which is imbued with aurene's power, and these two alone are stronger than the vast majority of tyrians. on top of this, both of the titans had known weaknesses which had already been exploited once before, while of the strengths of the third titan are unknown.

 

something to keep in mind is those fighting these things in the original game had resurrection skills at their disposal, and had to use them--alot. the average power levels in the modern era have fallen way off to the point where the pact commander, one of the strongest in tyria, is probably barely equal to an ascended hero from post-searing, if that. this is shown especially in living world season where we face only a single mursaat and have to use the shining blade to defeat him, when they were mowed down like weeds in the past, including the generals who were likely at least close to or on par with lazarus. some further evidence of this is us fighting a cairn in bastion of the penitent which is an elite legendary boss while in the original game they're just super mooks to the player character.

 

the short of it is, its considerably reckless to go in all guns a-blazing with a force that once turned an entire country into a nuclear wasteland. the charr were just the conduit, it was really the titans who were responsible for all the destruction.

I think it is worth considering that in GW1 we were fighting mursaat and jade armours with a party of 8, and at least when the game released, you did not want to take on an equal number of jade or mursaat, you wanted that numerical advantage to match their greater individual power.

Lazarus was in the ruling trio of the mursaat, so can therefore be presumed to be one of the most powerful. The 'regular' jade armours are probably on the level of those that you can solo in Ember Bay, and typical mursaat would probably be on a similar level. The cairns we fight in GW1 are probably the equivalent of champion jade constructs. Legendaries such as the cairn in Bastion are probably special examples above and beyond what we fight in GW1.

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think it is worth considering that in GW1 we were fighting mursaat and jade armours with a party of 8, and at least when the game released, you did not want to take on an equal number of jade or mursaat, you wanted that numerical advantage to match their greater individual power.

Lazarus was in the ruling trio of the mursaat, so can therefore be presumed to be one of the most powerful. The 'regular' jade armours are probably on the level of those that you can solo in Ember Bay, and typical mursaat would probably be on a similar level. The cairns we fight in GW1 are probably the equivalent of champion jade constructs. Legendaries such as the cairn in Bastion are probably special examples above and beyond what we fight in GW1.

IN GW1, it was narratively flat out impossible to fight against the Mursaat without ritual of ascension (as you'd not be able to even see them), and Spectral Agony without infusing was absolutely deadly. A single Mursaat should have been enough to lay waste to whole kingdoms.

(sure, in game you were in 8-man groups, but narratively the only person capable of fighting against the Mursaat was always the protagonist alone).

Notice, that GW2 lore claims, that Mursaat were individually so powerful that they managed to wipe out Seers even after they themselves were decimated by elder dragons first. And while Isgarren kept claiming that he did defeat Mabon when they first meet, the flashback we saw presented something exact opposite to that (and notice, that Mabon was not a Wizard yet at that point). And yet Titans managed to wipe out those remaining Mursaat just fine.

The power levels do seem to be highly inconsistent, that's for sure, but a lot also points to GW1 hero being significantly stronger than the gw2 one. At least relative to the world (it is possible, that due to the magic levels rising, it's not that GW2 hero is weaker, but that everyone around the hero is stronger).

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

IN GW1, it was narratively flat out impossible to fight against the Mursaat without ritual of ascension (as you'd not be able to even see them), and Spectral Agony without infusing was absolutely deadly. A single Mursaat should have been enough to lay waste to whole kingdoms.

(sure, in game you were in 8-man groups, but narratively the only person capable of fighting against the Mursaat was always the protagonist alone).

Notice, that GW2 lore claims, that Mursaat were individually so powerful that they managed to wipe out Seers even after they themselves were decimated by elder dragons first. And while Isgarren kept claiming that he did defeat Mabon when they first meet, the flashback we saw presented something exact opposite to that (and notice, that Mabon was not a Wizard yet at that point). And yet Titans managed to wipe out those remaining Mursaat just fine.

The power levels do seem to be highly inconsistent, that's for sure, but a lot also points to GW1 hero being significantly stronger than the gw2 one. At least relative to the world (it is possible, that due to the magic levels rising, it's not that GW2 hero is weaker, but that everyone around the hero is stronger).

The claim that narratively the only one capable of defeating the mursaat was the protagonist is untrue. GW1 until Nightfall had the premise that the PC was just one of a group of heroes, and both Factions and Nightfall have moments where you split and there's an assumption that another group is taking the other route (Nightfall won't let you do the mission you didn't choose until you beat the campaign) - in Nightfall's case, there's just the premise that you are the leader (but as the creed goes: A Sunspear never fights alone). The 'canon' is probably that there's one PC from each region and then there's the heroes and henchmen, but Kormir's reconstruction is five random heroes when the probably could have used heroes that were already in Nightfall or planned soon like Dunkoro and Koss. For Prophecies specifically, Devona, Mhenlo and so on are following the trials of ascension and infusing their armour alongside you, regardless of whether they're in your party or not.

And despite the poor builds of some of the henchmen, narratively the henchmen and heroes are supposed to be pretty close to being the PC's equals. The difference is similar to how the difference is in gameplay: in GW1, it's a group of near-equals. We can probably guesstimate the power of the Nightfall PC based on Koss, since the main difference between Koss and a warrior GW1 PC is access to the PvE-only skills - the GW1 PC is probably a bit stronger than Koss, but not to the point of being two or more times as strong. 

While in GW2, the Champion of Aurene being significantly more powerful than even the members of Destiny's Edge has been stated multiple times. Enemies like jade armour and titans feel stronger in GW2 because you don't have a squad of near-equals with you at all times. If you have the portal stone, one of the ghosts in the Hall of Monuments also points out that the skills we have now are more powerful than they were back then.

Which may be another consideration. Magic is stronger than it was back then. For elder races that were around during the last dragonrise that were used to higher concentrations of magic, it's possible that they were depowered a bit during GW1 themselves. But we can still fairly comfortably solo the veteran jades in Ember Bay, which are probably the equivalents of the standard level 24 jades and mursaat in Prophecies.

[Pifil.5193]

Yeah, I don't think it's too easy to create cheap, lower powered copies of ancient artefacts. Do we even know who created it much less how it was created? It's not like you can just run it through some magical photocopier (after you've selected the "no sentience" and "arcane power to 10%" options).

As for these titans it's an odd one, individually they seem weak in the story. Give me some Pact forces (especially airships) and I reckon I could wipe the floor with them. Mind you we are an ascended god and dragon killing, back from the dead, superhero at this stage, we're supposed to be a lot more powerful than those around us.

We know there's at least one more. I'm expecting that the next map will reveal a big ol' portal with huge titan forces massing behind it. You know, a pretty standard "we're in more trouble than we thought" reveal.

[draxynnic.3719]

40 minutes ago, Pifil.5193 said:

Yeah, I don't think it's too easy to create cheap, lower powered copies of ancient artefacts. Do we even know who created it much less how it was created? It's not like you can just run it through some magical photocopier (after you've selected the "no sentience" and "arcane power to 10%" options).

As for these titans it's an odd one, individually they seem weak in the story. Give me some Pact forces (especially airships) and I reckon I could wipe the floor with them. Mind you we are an ascended god and dragon killing, back from the dead, superhero at this stage, we're supposed to be a lot more powerful than those around us.

We know there's at least one more. I'm expecting that the next map will reveal a big ol' portal with huge titan forces massing behind it. You know, a pretty standard "we're in more trouble than we thought" reveal.

One factor is that we're learning more about how the titans operate. I've actually been a bit disappointed that the titans don't seen to have the "break apart into smaller pieces when killed" behaviour - while we haven't killed either of the "true" titans, I would have expected some of the larger titanspawn to break down into smaller titanspawn. However, it seems that the titans are also capable of deliberately splitting off new titanspawn almost at will.

It feels like this might be a significant difference between them. In GW1 they were mostly just another enemy, albeit a particularly dangerous one due to their splitting behaviour and their builds - but in GW1 most of the titans we fight are newly arrived and didn't have time to form a large auxiliary force of titanspawn (although they are present). Here we only have a handful, but they've been here unopposed for long enough to have built up a considerable force.