#1 Push spec - Willbender - Showcases the 2 biggest flaws in Push

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Willbender is overperforming in Push and it isn't even due to the reasons you may think regarding class balance. Sure, it's strong and its design is good for node diving, but that's only roughly half what makes it good in the Push mode.

It is because Willbender has so much mobility/porting that due to the short respawn time in Push, it is seriously back on the node in 6 to 8 seconds after it dies. All a team needs is one aggressive Willbender, and that one person alone can greatly stall node progress of the opponent, even after a full team wipe, due to how fast it can get back to the node off the short respawn with its teleports. Any class with high mobility & ports can do this really, but Willbender is the best at it due to the amount of massive AoE damage it can drop in between dives & deaths.

This very much so highlights the two biggest critical problems with Push thus far:

1. The respawn timer is way too short, to the point that being stupid and getting yourself farmed isn't even punishing if your build has extreme mobility. As it is now, bad players are too effective while running high mobility builds that go to the node very quickly off a respawn. They don't even need to be good, they just need to quickly get their body back on the node for stall, even if it's in downstate. This makes matches overly drawn out when you're on a good team who isn't dying at all, but the team you are against is able to keep getting their bodies back to the node so quickly, you end up getting perma stalled around the corner push and have to play to the timer, even though you are farming the opponent. I'm talking like no one on your team dies at all, and the other guys by the end of the match have probably died 15 to 20 times each, they have no mechanical resistance to combat your team, but you cannot push the node for a finish because their respawn timer is just too short for how much mobility they have. The respawn time could use a good +5 seconds.
2. When players go into downstate, this should not stall node push progress. First of all, stalling while in downstate is bogging matches up way too much while put into conjunction with the aforementioned problem. Both of these things combined is encouraging this suicide bomber play style that is more rewarding than it should be for the lack of skill required to make it work, and the lame dynamic that it brings. This is why things like Willbender & full glass Virtuoso are tearing up Push games, because it doesn't matter if they die. All they have to do is go in, drop a ton of DPS, try to take someone or two with them, go into downstate, stall the node while in downstate, die go on respawn, and then port back real fast, do same thing again. This mode was intended for new players yes? Well this dynamic is not preparing them for Conquest games or any other mode. In other modes, deathing yourself grants +5 points to your opponent each time you do it, and going on respawn while leaving your team 4v5 on 3 nodes is actually detrimental. In Conquest, the worst thing you can do for your team is go on respawn. In Push however, there just simply isn't a penalty for chain deathing yourself, and in many scenarios it's the best option to stall, which is kind of a lame dynamic to play in when you realize "my best option right now is to go to the node and die because it will grant like +15s of node stall". This just isn't a fun dynamic to play in. This can be easily solved by making it so downstate players do not contribute node stall or push progress. This would make it so players had to actually win combats to create node contribution, rather than just being able to cheese stall with chain deathing and port mobility.

 I just want to point out that no one was really complaining about Willbender during Conquest. Some people were saying its damage was high, but it wasn't like a grand MVP with the dynamic of Conquest. The Push dynamic however, exposes a game mode that completely rewards the idea of a class that can play the kamikaze pilot over and over with no punishment for doing so, and Willbender is the best at that.

But yeah, these two things need to be done for Push. Tag +5 more seconds onto respawns, and remove downstate contribution to nodes.

Edited Monday at 08:36 PM by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Downstate always contests a node though, even in conquest. 

It's one of the reasons I tell new eles NOT to mistform off the node when they go down in a 1v1 scenario, because even if they die on the node, it will still contest it for that much longer.  

Respawn issue could be handled by making respawns in waves, believe it's been mentioned in another topic.  Basically, if you die, it starts a 10 second timer and anyone that dies within that timer window respawns with you in the wave after the next.  Games like TF2 also scale this, so if there's less players alive, the wave time is shorter.

Think 8 v 8 or 10v10 would make more sense with the mode to allow people to actually play the point and get objectives, instead of one or the other.  Might as well say if it's 8v8 then two duos per team are allowed and three for 10v10, if they don't want to go and just make it an 8- or 10-man Q only.  

Edited Monday at 09:29 PM by Gotejjeken.1267

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

22 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Respawn issue could be handled by making respawns in waves, believe it's been mentioned in another topic.  Basically, if you die, it starts a 10 second timer and anyone that dies within that timer window respawns with you in the wave after the next.

Yes but this is often results in shortcut respawning. You die and a 10s timer starts. Your buddy dies at 8s during the timer, and then essentially instantly respawns with you.

Wave respawn really doesn't work out well imo.

Edited Monday at 09:51 PM by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yes but this is often results in shortcut respawning. You die and a 10s timer starts. Your buddies at 8s during the timer, and then essentially instantly respawns with you.

Wave respawn really doesn't work out well imo.

It doesn't, if you die within the 10 second timer you respawn 10 seconds AFTER that one.  So somewhere between 10 and 20 second respawns per group.

Worked very well for TF2, which arguably is where this mode got its start.  

[maxwelgm.4315]

I gotta thank Trevor as after reading this topic I realized I was playing WB wrong and now that I started rushing in and blowing up the weakest player I can find and I've climbed the 100 points I lost trying to play support and now receive angry whispers after 32/2 kills/deaths in blowout matches

[Zephyrus.9680]

WB is very popular but if it needs balance, changing a game mode to 'balance' a single spec isn't the way. 

I don't agree with either of these points. IMO the losing team needs a slightly bigger advantage, not smaller. So down state should absolutely contest, just like every other mode. And respawn timer should not be longer, it's already enough of an issue for the losing team to be able to regroup with the respawn timer as it is.

Also in my experience (Plat1 currently) if a team/players are focusing on contesting the node from spawn dashes, they're just losing more slowly through the objective rather than actually trying to win the fight and reverse the momentum. This will matter at the very end for the games that go to the time limit but that's it. 

[coro.3176]

42 minutes ago, Zephyrus.9680 said:

WB is very popular but if it needs balance, changing a game mode to 'balance' a single spec isn't the way. 

I don't agree with either of these points. IMO the losing team needs a slightly bigger advantage, not smaller. So down state should absolutely contest, just like every other mode. And respawn timer should not be longer, it's already enough of an issue for the losing team to be able to regroup with the respawn timer as it is.

Also in my experience (Plat1 currently) if a team/players are focusing on contesting the node from spawn dashes, they're just losing more slowly through the objective rather than actually trying to win the fight and reverse the momentum. This will matter at the very end for the games that go to the time limit but that's it. 

My experience when losing is: we try and group up and leave spawn. Sometimes we succeed. The enemy team is in full phalanx mode, with protection, barriers, bubbles, auras, etc. We try and cloud and get some damage on point. Enemy calls target on someone. Instantly, 2 bursty dps (WB + Virt) just explode that person. Enemy team jumps on them and finishes down. Repeat.

In order to actually fight that, the losing team would have to get out of spawn, get grouped up, get phalanx mode rolling themselves (if they even have the support for it, and they probably don't), then attack. Good luck organizing that. The winning side just seems to fall into it naturally because the point is right there. It's much harder for the losers.

[Lazarus.4105]

Power wb flops over so fast just focus them. Most don't even run the invulnerability elite anymore.