Theorycrafting: The Twin Serpents (Janthir Wilds spoilers)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Been a while since I did one of these posts. Time to pull out the thumbtack and strings! And ramble for a bit, admittedly.

The Pre-Order Mystery

A while ago I had a thought on the possible hidden villain behind Janthir Wilds that sprung up from the pre-order bonuses. These were the Whispering Serpents Pauldrons and a Serpent's Wrath weapon skin. So far, nothing in Janthir Wilds has tied to snakes and serpents - not without a bit of thumbtack and strings of loops and metaphors upon metaphors (Janthir ties to White Mantle, White Mantle ties to Caudecus, Caudecus was called a snake, i.e., Head of the Snake) at least. Previous pre-order bonuses, however, were very directly related. SotO pre-order was Arcane Spellweaver's Hat Skin which ties to the Astral Ward and wizards; EoD pre-order was Shing Jea Mosaic Cape, connection obvious; PoF pre-order was Mini Rogue Balthazar again connection obvious; HoT pre-order was just a title which all pre-orders also got (and each were obvious in connection, even JW's).

So why serpents?

Who Are The Twin Serpent Brothers?

The immediate thought given for the Whispering Serpents Pauldrons is Abaddon. Several motifs of his include serpent-like entities over his shoulders, such as seen in this concept art. The addition of Eldritch Horror gathering tools adds onto that because of the whole tentacles motif, and Abaddon in Nightfall having some soft Lovecraftian vibes (even so far as one of Varesh's chants being straight up ripped from one of the most popular Lovecraftian phrases originating from The Shadow Over Innsmouth). But Abaddon is dead, and as much as we all love constantly referring to dead favorites, a different thought came about. One I spoiled with the section header:

"Long ago, the god of death was challenged to a duel by two brothers. Grenth was so angered by these two mortals, that instead of simply granting them the sweet peace of death, he turned them into twin serpents and forced them to serve him in the Rift for the rest of eternity. This mountain stands as a reminder to all those who serve Grenth. Be careful that you do not incur such a punishment."

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Reaper_of_the_Twin_Serpent_Mountains

Honestly I don't know why but for the longest time I thought Grenth had turned the brothers into the statues in Twin Serpent Mountains but apparently not (which is a shame! That's some Greek Disproportional (But Justified) Punishment kind of stuff that would be utterly lovely). Anyways, what this goes to say is that the Twin Serpent Brothers who attempted to usurp Grenth an unknown time ago in the Mists were never slain. They were imprisoned, and like all prisons made by the Six Gods, the inhabitants always break free - Dhuum, Abaddon, Balthazar, Jadoth, The Fury, and the list goes on and on with less important individuals.

So with Grenth having left into the Mists with his mother and others, and with the Reapers dead and most of Grenth's servants sharing similar fates thanks to Dhuum, there's not many folks left to keep the prisons of the Six in check. So unless Grenth took the brothers who sought to kill him along for the road trip, the Twin Serpent Brothers are likely broken free.

But Are They Different?

Wild side tangent: What is the possibility that the Twin Serpent Brothers and Abaddon's shoulder serpents are the same entities? Assuming, of course, that Abaddon's shoulder serpents are even canon - outside of some rare few depictions, none of which are actually used in-game as far as I'm aware, we know nothing about the shoulder serpents.

But let's consider them canon - after all, why not. Could they be the same Twin Serpent Brothers? The timeline... actually matches up!

According to the Scriptures of Grenth, Grenth first showed his face in 48 BE. Abaddon was taken down in 1 BE - a full 47 years difference. But compared to the time between Abaddon's downfall and the Hero's visit to the Underworld in GW1, that's 1074 years (takes place in 1072 AE; we also have Year 0 and 1 BE to add on, so +2 years). So there's essentially a 1121 years timespan for the Twin Serpent Brothers to attempt to usurp Grenth. This said, the duel occurred "Long ago" so we can assume at least 100 years passed between then and GW1. Remove the 47 years to go from Exodus to GW1-100 years, That's still over 900 years that servants of Abaddon could thus become challengers to Grenth. Plenty of time.

"But the brothers were turned into serpents according to the Reaper!" one may counter - yes... but all pre-Exodus depictions of Abaddon lack visuals of the serpents as well. So maybe the concept art, which was depiction Nightfall-era Serpents around Abaddon. Which basically means, the depiction was clearly after the brothers were turned to serpents. Alternatively, ArenaNet does love their use of unreliable narrator - and with the Reapers dead, who's to counter the Reaper lied about that one small tidbit (though there's some obvious Biblical inspiration there with God turning Satan into a snake for tricking Adam and Eve but I digress)?

There is one more thing to consider (this will be a bit of a rambling tangent so stay with me): the shoulder serpents could have been taking inspiration from Zahhak, a mythological king who was tricked by an evil sorcerer who was cursed with serpents coming out of his shoulders whispering evils to his ears (a horrible, horrible summary - go read the original or at least youtube a summary of it). Which ties into the name Whispering Serpents for the shoulders, but also could mean that this depiction stems from when Jeff Grubb was wanting to have Abaddon redeemed at the end of Nightfall (a plot thankfully dropped because not all villains need redemption arcs! And for the love of god Anet stop doing death = redemption! it's a kitten form of redemption! /MaiTrinRant). Point being that this reference could also imply the serpents (and thus the brothers) weren't always tied to Abaddon, but joined him later as he had his fall from grace. In the Underworld quests, particularly with the Bone Pits, it's both implied and explicitly established that the Underworld is connected to the Realm of Torment, and Dhuum's forces were shoving souls to the Realm of Torment and pulling from there. In Nightfall, it's also firmly established Abaddon's forces allied with Dhuum's and Menzies' forces - creating what is essentially an anti-current-Six Gods alliance. Why wouldn't the Twin Serpent Brothers be involved in such? In fact, it seems odd they were never explicitly tied... unless perhaps they were going to be the shoulder serpents, servants of Abaddon who attempted to overthrow Grenth after Abaddon's fall in one of the earlier failed ploys of revenge?

In either case, the Whispering Serpent Pauldrons seem to be heavily referencing the shoulder serpents of Abaddon - why else put serpents overlooking the shoulders? But could they also be referencing the Twin Serpent Brothers?

Anyways, enough ramblematic goings on, time to bring up the next question:

Who Reforged The Titans?

And now to tie into the Janthir Wilds plot we do know! One of the big backroom mysteries in the main story of Janthir Wilds so far is the cause of the evolved nature of these Titans. From off-screen investigations about original Titan creations to an entire achievement about it, and most importantly, an ominous optional text suggesting Mabon's involvement. But in the end, we do not know who led the creation of these titans. Though to me, the Mabon ominousness may be tied more to just a deal with Ura, if it's tied to the titans directly at all, and not the creation of the new titans.

So far it's a total mystery who made these new titans, if they come from the Foundry of Failed Creations or another source (which, based on GW1 lore, there should totally be another source of the Titans because they were on Tyria eons ago so that even Seers knew well of them and are are as old as the Forgotten, so it's not like they were a Dhuum-made creation (and yes, The Fury was the one making GW1 Titans, even created the Foundry of Failed Creations in fact, and was a servant of Dhuum - Abaddon has no direct connection to the Titans).

So what are the possibilities that the Whispering Serpents is foreshadowing the makers of Ura, Decima, and Greer?

If so, are the Whispering Serpents the Shoulder Serpents? Or are they the Twin Serpent Brothers? Or are they all three one and the same?

[GeraldBC.4927]

It makes a lot of sense, but even assuming all 3 are the same, I can't think of any mention of serpents in Janthir Wilds aside from the weapon set and the shoulder pieces. How does any of it tie into the clues found in the expansion itself?

• Ura's dialogue
• Caudecus' expedition team
• Gavril and the excessive blood sacrifices
• Rhea Ingham and the Mae Twins

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

2 hours ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

It makes a lot of sense, but even assuming all 3 are the same, I can't think of any mention of serpents in Janthir Wilds aside from the weapon set and the shoulder pieces. How does any of it tie into the clues found in the expansion itself?

• Ura's dialogue
• Caudecus' expedition team
• Gavril and the excessive blood sacrifices
• Rhea Ingham and the Mae Twins

But that's just it, the pre-order bonuses lean heavily into the serpentine yet there is nothing serpentine in JW so far. Why? Could it be that these bonuses were decided before it was actually a secret where the story was headed? Are they perhaps intentional clues? I couldn't help but wonder what the relationship was myself. The fact that there's nothing serpentine thematically in the expansion's story yet only makes me all the more suspicious that a more major revelation is coming up.

[Narcemus.1348]

37 minutes ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

But that's just it, the pre-order bonuses lean heavily into the serpentine yet there is nothing serpentine in JW so far. Why? Could it be that these bonuses were decided before it was actually a secret where the story was headed? Are they perhaps intentional clues? I couldn't help but wonder what the relationship was myself. The fact that there's nothing serpentine thematically in the expansion's story yet only makes me all the more suspicious that a more major revelation is coming up.

Yeah, as much as I would find this a cool twist, I do find it a struggle to believe that they would release a teaser to the plot of the expansion as the pre-order bonus when none of the previous bonuses have had any lore implications. It is weird, but it could be entirely unrelated. I haven't decided personally where I stand on this spectrum, though I like the idea that we can read into these items.

[TwistedAlga.4235]

18 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

Very interesting theory! 

I can't wait to see where the story continues and where we'll go next to explore and find out other stuff.

Where did you find this screenshot from? I haven't seen it before in-game.☺️

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

It makes a lot of sense, but even assuming all 3 are the same, I can't think of any mention of serpents in Janthir Wilds aside from the weapon set and the shoulder pieces. How does any of it tie into the clues found in the expansion itself?

• Ura's dialogue
• Caudecus' expedition team
• Gavril and the excessive blood sacrifices
• Rhea Ingham and the Mae Twins

As @Elricht Kaltwind.8796 says, that's half the point of the thread. The pre-order and deluxe bonuses always deal with either the location of the expansion, or a major group/individual of the expansion. Yet there's been a noticeable absence of serpent stuff.

I don't think the serpents have anything to do with Caudecus or Gavril. And I especially don't think the Mae Twins are of any importance - I do not subscribe to the theory I heard floating about that the titan siblings are the Mae twins just because the female of the two happen to have similar / same voice actor, given the fact the Mae twins' souls were in the Bloodstone for 250 years. Certainly possible, but unlikely IMO. The White Mantle stuff has so far more been worldbuilding backstory stuff that serves to answer questions about Janthir more than main antagonist stuff, like learning about the Wizards, the Tower, and their past in SotO.

1 hour ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

Yeah, as much as I would find this a cool twist, I do find it a struggle to believe that they would release a teaser to the plot of the expansion as the pre-order bonus when none of the previous bonuses have had any lore implications. It is weird, but it could be entirely unrelated. I haven't decided personally where I stand on this spectrum, though I like the idea that we can read into these items.

What do you mean? Every pre-order has held lore connections. The thing is that usually we already knew the connection. SotO was the first one we didn't, I think, but the connection of "wizard and spellcaster" isn't that groundbreaking (guess you can argue we knew because Wizard's Tower and articles about the Wizard's Vault and Wizard's Court).

30 minutes ago, TwistedAlga.4235 said:

Where did you find this screenshot from? I haven't seen it before in-game.☺️

That's the Twin Serpent Mountains in GW1. The statues depicting the two brothers going after Grenth.

Edited 8 hours ago by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Narcemus.1348]

I intended to mean that none of the expansion bonus goods have given away any of the plot of the story, at least nothing past Act 1. Not saying it isn't possible, but there are reasons to doubt that they are signs of large spoilers for later. I like the idea, though obviously large parts of this are speculation with thin threads holding it together (specifically the twins and abandon connection) but it is fun to go down that rabbit hole and see where it leads.

[Narcemus.1348]

3 hours ago, TwistedAlga.4235 said:

Very interesting theory! 

I can't wait to see where the story continues and where we'll go next to explore and find out other stuff.

Where did you find this screenshot from? I haven't seen it before in-game.☺️

That is from the Underworld in Guild Wars 1

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 minutes ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

I intended to mean that none of the expansion bonus goods have given away any of the plot of the story, at least nothing past Act 1. Not saying it isn't possible, but there are reasons to doubt that they are signs of large spoilers for later. I like the idea, though obviously large parts of this are speculation with thin threads holding it together (specifically the twins and abandon connection) but it is fun to go down that rabbit hole and see where it leads.

Ah, yeah, that's true. But that's also the entire reason I put on the tinfoil hat to write this. Because there's nothing serpent related in JW so far.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Well, you know me. I'm always up for more tangentially related God stuff in the story, and what you've dug up here is certainly food for thought!

[GeraldBC.4927]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I don't think the serpents have anything to do with Caudecus or Gavril. Certainly possible, but unlikely IMO. 

I do, I was one of the people that circulated parts of it. They got too much screentime to be as irrelevant as it is implied and there's too many coincidences lining up. 

• The voice actor thing and the fact that the antagonists happen to be male-female siblings just like the psycho twins
• The fact that of the 3 major White Mantle characters in Gavril, one just happens to be named after one of the titans from greek mythology
• The fact that the Mursaat, the people most concerned with stopping the titans, happened to have a city located in the same region where the titans start appearing

If this was all a titans-from-the-mists story and nothing else, they could have placed the kodan and the titans anywhere on the now very sizable map, but they chose White-Mantle-land. The Kodan could have settled anywhere and it would still make sense. The titans could invade anywhere and it would still make sense. But both went to Janthir of White Mantle fame specifically, why? There's no way there isn't a reason for that.

My first guess as to why the serpent shoulders feature as a preorder reward is that it's a nod to Abaddon who is associated with them. The titans that is. What else would you have done in their shoes? Khilbron's fez? Can't do Dhuum stuff because there's plenty of that as armor skins and costumes. Can't do Abaddon's mask because iirc that's already in the game. 

Edited 4 hours ago by GeraldBC.4927

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

They got too much screentime to be as irrelevant as it is implied and there's too many coincidences lining up. 

I must have missed something then, which is certainly possible, because the White Mantle, Caudecus, and Gavril combined only got a singular story instance involvement in the main plot, and otherwise are restricted to open world and a strictly labeled side story achievement. Which is about as much focus that Akeem and Vass got in SotO.

1 hour ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

• The fact that the Mursaat, the people most concerned with stopping the titans, happened to have a city located in the same region where the titans start appearing

This is not out of place or surprising at all given that Khilbron literally sent the titans on a mission to wipe out the mursaat. It would be more surprising that titans didn't assault Janthir.

1 hour ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

If this was all a titans-from-the-mists story and nothing else, they could have placed the kodan and the titans anywhere on the now very sizable map, but they chose White-Mantle-land. The Kodan could have settled anywhere and it would still make sense. The titans could invade anywhere and it would still make sense. But both went to Janthir of White Mantle fame specifically, why? There's no way there isn't a reason for that.

My first guess as to why the serpent shoulders feature as a preorder reward is that it's a nod to Abaddon who is associated with them. The titans that is. What else would you have done in their shoes? Khilbron's fez? Can't do Dhuum stuff because there's plenty of that as armor skins and costumes. Can't do Abaddon's mask because iirc that's already in the game. 

I mean, Janthir was pretty clearly chosen the same reason The Wizard's Tower was chosen. They could have put the Astral Ward and Amnytas anywhere in the world, connected it to anything. They chose to connect it to a long standing mystery of fascination for the playerbase that received about two lines of text in GW1. And Janthir is the same.

1 hour ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

What else would you have done in their shoes? Khilbron's fez? Can't do Dhuum stuff because there's plenty of that as armor skins and costumes. Can't do Abaddon's mask because iirc that's already in the game. 

You say that as if there are not two Grenth masks. Or two Aurene wings. Hell, SotO's pre-order hat is practically the same as an armor skin in SotO and the Wizard's Vault hat during SotO. That's three similar hats at the same time, and not even touching the original hat. They could have given us an Abaddon mask that matched the statue, rather than the post-Fall looking Abaddon head mask we got, if the intent was Abaddon theming.

But I don't disagree. It could be some indirect reference to Abaddon with no plans of any direct ties to serpents and nothing more. Thing is... pre-order items are usually more obvious than that.

Also would definitely enjoy a fez hat.

Edited 4 hours ago by Konig Des Todes.2086