Akeno.4962 Posted February 4, 2018 Author Share Posted February 4, 2018 Yep, basically the problem with raids right now is role compresion: druids and chronos do too much work there. Role compresion needs to go to make other options really viable, but chrono's damage and druid's healing should be buffed to compensate. Also, i think it has been confirmed that they actually balance PVE according to the meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 @RabbitUp.8294 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@RabbitUp.8294 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@RabbitUp.8294 said:@Obtena.7952 said:?? I don't know what you're talking about if you're accusing me of making up my mind. Anet doesn't plan the meta PERIOD. The meta is determined by players that want to solve encounters optimally. Most things in this game are filler ... because there is usually only a couple of combinations of builds/comps that are optimal to solve a given situation. Therefore, 'filler' doesn't mean much when arguing for change. I'm not arguing that Druid isn't designed to be a powerful healer or not .. it's irrevelant to the discussion; there is ALWAYS going to be a 'best' at something in a game where combinations of classes/builds can be optimized to solve encounter problems. There isn't any reasonable logic to complain about that or claim there is something wrong with it. So you think the constant targeted nerfs and buffs for builds/classes based on their raid performance and benchmarks is a coincidence? Stop you there ... you think Anet are changing class tools because of raid performance and benchmarks RELATIVE to other classes so it's equivalent? Consider the following:Their isn't a reality where Anet is performance balancing classes based on raid performance and such a large difference between class performance can exist, especially after years and numerous balance patches. Those two things are contradictions. I know that the large difference between class performance does exist; so does everyone else ... so there is only one explanation; Anet does not performance balance classes based on raids. But wait ... I know your going to tell me they are working on it and they still are trying to get there. In that case, it doesn't matter anyways because the timescale to achieve balance is SO much longer than the timescale of other changes to the game, so any attempt to performance balance any particular state of the game is a waste of time. Supports haven't been included in the balancing routine during the whole HoT era, because there were no alternatives. Ventari was the closest thing, and they made a flimsy attempt to give it some alacrity, but ultimately dropped it as they knew what they were working on with the PoF specs. Any changes to druid and chrono were for the general health of the game.But dps builds have been constantly being balanced around raid benchmarks. Pick any overperforming benchmark in the last 2 years and check how long it took for them to nerf it. Burnzerker, a bunch of different tempest builds, condi DD, firebrand, mirage.And now that PoF launched 2 new supports, they have made several attempts at nerfing chrono and druid. Of course, if you ask me, they were stupid to launch firebrand and renegade in that state to begin with, but whatever.And how about all the other examples? Do you think the spirit and banner 10-man changes (and GotL before that) could possibly be for any other reason that to counter the mirror meta that everyone was complaining about?I read what you are saying but the fact remains that there is a significant contradiction between the reality of the game and any idea of performance being balanced if you believe that Anet is performance balancing classes according to raids. The range of performance is much to large to even begin to think Anet are making progress to doing this. Your examples don't do anything to address that contradiction; yes Anet has made changes ... and the gap in performance is still very large. Regardless of what you want to believe, the game will still persist for a VERY long time in a state where we don't have performance equivalence among classes and their builds. What does that mean for Support Renegade? It means Renegade might have an opportunity to be 'in' meta ... who doesn't like Alacrity? If Alacrity was your 'in' to the meta, why wouldn't you want to make a build that gives you the best alacrity uptime possible? This is why I like the change ... because as a player, I can consider how to make Alacrity a focus on a build or not. But you don't give any examples. What's that "gap" in performance?Really? just go check the benchmarks in damage on Snow Crows site ... Not sure if you're being serious or not. I think it's generally known that there are massive differences in ability to do damage, heal, etc ... between classes in this game. I would have thought examples were not necessary. If Anet's goal is to provide 'good enough' within a range (I would say a REALLY wide range) and call that balance, then there isn't anything to complain about ... I mean, if a 30K DPSer is 'OK' to have with a 35+ K DPSer ... then how can anyone consider anything in the current state of the game unbalanced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akeno.4962 Posted February 4, 2018 Author Share Posted February 4, 2018 @Obtena.7952 said:@RabbitUp.8294 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@RabbitUp.8294 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@RabbitUp.8294 said:@Obtena.7952 said:?? I don't know what you're talking about if you're accusing me of making up my mind. Anet doesn't plan the meta PERIOD. The meta is determined by players that want to solve encounters optimally. Most things in this game are filler ... because there is usually only a couple of combinations of builds/comps that are optimal to solve a given situation. Therefore, 'filler' doesn't mean much when arguing for change. I'm not arguing that Druid isn't designed to be a powerful healer or not .. it's irrevelant to the discussion; there is ALWAYS going to be a 'best' at something in a game where combinations of classes/builds can be optimized to solve encounter problems. There isn't any reasonable logic to complain about that or claim there is something wrong with it. So you think the constant targeted nerfs and buffs for builds/classes based on their raid performance and benchmarks is a coincidence? Stop you there ... you think Anet are changing class tools because of raid performance and benchmarks RELATIVE to other classes so it's equivalent? Consider the following:Their isn't a reality where Anet is performance balancing classes based on raid performance and such a large difference between class performance can exist, especially after years and numerous balance patches. Those two things are contradictions. I know that the large difference between class performance does exist; so does everyone else ... so there is only one explanation; Anet does not performance balance classes based on raids. But wait ... I know your going to tell me they are working on it and they still are trying to get there. In that case, it doesn't matter anyways because the timescale to achieve balance is SO much longer than the timescale of other changes to the game, so any attempt to performance balance any particular state of the game is a waste of time. Supports haven't been included in the balancing routine during the whole HoT era, because there were no alternatives. Ventari was the closest thing, and they made a flimsy attempt to give it some alacrity, but ultimately dropped it as they knew what they were working on with the PoF specs. Any changes to druid and chrono were for the general health of the game.But dps builds have been constantly being balanced around raid benchmarks. Pick any overperforming benchmark in the last 2 years and check how long it took for them to nerf it. Burnzerker, a bunch of different tempest builds, condi DD, firebrand, mirage.And now that PoF launched 2 new supports, they have made several attempts at nerfing chrono and druid. Of course, if you ask me, they were stupid to launch firebrand and renegade in that state to begin with, but whatever.And how about all the other examples? Do you think the spirit and banner 10-man changes (and GotL before that) could possibly be for any other reason that to counter the mirror meta that everyone was complaining about?I read what you are saying but the fact remains that there is a significant contradiction between the reality of the game and any idea of performance being balanced if you believe that Anet is performance balancing classes according to raids. The range of performance is much to large to even begin to think Anet are making progress to doing this. Your examples don't do anything to address that contradiction; yes Anet has made changes ... and the gap in performance is still very large. Regardless of what you want to believe, the game will still persist for a VERY long time in a state where we don't have performance equivalence among classes and their builds. What does that mean for Support Renegade? It means Renegade might have an opportunity to be 'in' meta ... who doesn't like Alacrity? If Alacrity was your 'in' to the meta, why wouldn't you want to make a build that gives you the best alacrity uptime possible? This is why I like the change ... because as a player, I can consider how to make Alacrity a focus on a build or not. But you don't give any examples. What's that "gap" in performance?Really? just go check the benchmarks in damage on Snow Crows site ... Not sure if you're being serious or not. I think it's generally known that there are massive differences in ability to do damage, heal, etc ... between classes in this game. I would have thought examples were not necessary. If Anet's goal is to provide 'good enough' within a range (I would say a REALLY wide range) and call that balance, then there isn't anything to complain about ... I mean, if a 30K DPSer is 'OK' to have with a 35+ K DPSer ... then how can anyone consider anything in the current state of the game unbalanced?If your only looking at dps.. but we could use some balance in the support department too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Skywalker.5674 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 @Knox.8962 said:@MicROpart.7905 said:@Akeno.4962 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Akeno.4962 said:@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I'm running a Harrier renegade, and this news sounds awesome. Now I can cap might, cap alacrity, and heal at the same time.Like I answered on the other thread. I'd LOVE using a renegade with full healer stats. But that's not gonna happen as long as the only thing they could brag about was personal damage compared to a condi druid. Druid does too many thing well: its heals are good enough, its buffs are better, its cc is better, and it can deal with mechanics by exploiting effects we cant because we're so limited in skillset. Support renegade only makes sense as a hybrid between dps and healing in the current meta, so using harrier defeats this purpose.No, it can happen if you stop thinking you can only play optimized builds. Using Harrier seems to me IS a hybrid of DPS and healing ... what else would you use for a hybrid of DPS and healing?Right now? Marshall and/or Viper. Because you get much more dps from condition stats that from power stats without any precision or ferocity. And yeah, I've been playing sub optimal builds for a very long time. But I'm tired of getting kicked of pugs or pugs not joining my groups. However, not thinking you can only play optimized builds must not hide from us the reality that there is a great imbalance among specs supposed to heal.SERAPH would be a good choice..You can actually make a solid single condi setup using seraph gear and krait runes to camp Shortbow. It pulls about 15k DPS or so and heals for WAY more than a condi druid does.Bull.If something that good could be done with the most hated weapon of all time by this comunity there would be videos about it by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 @Akeno.4962 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@RabbitUp.8294 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@RabbitUp.8294 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@RabbitUp.8294 said:@Obtena.7952 said:?? I don't know what you're talking about if you're accusing me of making up my mind. Anet doesn't plan the meta PERIOD. The meta is determined by players that want to solve encounters optimally. Most things in this game are filler ... because there is usually only a couple of combinations of builds/comps that are optimal to solve a given situation. Therefore, 'filler' doesn't mean much when arguing for change. I'm not arguing that Druid isn't designed to be a powerful healer or not .. it's irrevelant to the discussion; there is ALWAYS going to be a 'best' at something in a game where combinations of classes/builds can be optimized to solve encounter problems. There isn't any reasonable logic to complain about that or claim there is something wrong with it. So you think the constant targeted nerfs and buffs for builds/classes based on their raid performance and benchmarks is a coincidence? Stop you there ... you think Anet are changing class tools because of raid performance and benchmarks RELATIVE to other classes so it's equivalent? Consider the following:Their isn't a reality where Anet is performance balancing classes based on raid performance and such a large difference between class performance can exist, especially after years and numerous balance patches. Those two things are contradictions. I know that the large difference between class performance does exist; so does everyone else ... so there is only one explanation; Anet does not performance balance classes based on raids. But wait ... I know your going to tell me they are working on it and they still are trying to get there. In that case, it doesn't matter anyways because the timescale to achieve balance is SO much longer than the timescale of other changes to the game, so any attempt to performance balance any particular state of the game is a waste of time. Supports haven't been included in the balancing routine during the whole HoT era, because there were no alternatives. Ventari was the closest thing, and they made a flimsy attempt to give it some alacrity, but ultimately dropped it as they knew what they were working on with the PoF specs. Any changes to druid and chrono were for the general health of the game.But dps builds have been constantly being balanced around raid benchmarks. Pick any overperforming benchmark in the last 2 years and check how long it took for them to nerf it. Burnzerker, a bunch of different tempest builds, condi DD, firebrand, mirage.And now that PoF launched 2 new supports, they have made several attempts at nerfing chrono and druid. Of course, if you ask me, they were stupid to launch firebrand and renegade in that state to begin with, but whatever.And how about all the other examples? Do you think the spirit and banner 10-man changes (and GotL before that) could possibly be for any other reason that to counter the mirror meta that everyone was complaining about?I read what you are saying but the fact remains that there is a significant contradiction between the reality of the game and any idea of performance being balanced if you believe that Anet is performance balancing classes according to raids. The range of performance is much to large to even begin to think Anet are making progress to doing this. Your examples don't do anything to address that contradiction; yes Anet has made changes ... and the gap in performance is still very large. Regardless of what you want to believe, the game will still persist for a VERY long time in a state where we don't have performance equivalence among classes and their builds. What does that mean for Support Renegade? It means Renegade might have an opportunity to be 'in' meta ... who doesn't like Alacrity? If Alacrity was your 'in' to the meta, why wouldn't you want to make a build that gives you the best alacrity uptime possible? This is why I like the change ... because as a player, I can consider how to make Alacrity a focus on a build or not. But you don't give any examples. What's that "gap" in performance?Really? just go check the benchmarks in damage on Snow Crows site ... Not sure if you're being serious or not. I think it's generally known that there are massive differences in ability to do damage, heal, etc ... between classes in this game. I would have thought examples were not necessary. If Anet's goal is to provide 'good enough' within a range (I would say a REALLY wide range) and call that balance, then there isn't anything to complain about ... I mean, if a 30K DPSer is 'OK' to have with a 35+ K DPSer ... then how can anyone consider anything in the current state of the game unbalanced?If your only looking at dps.. but we could use some balance in the support department too.You can't measure 'support' to claim it's balanced or not ... so that doesn't make sense. Again ... if the range for damage balance is acceptable, why wouldn't the same range be acceptable for anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akeno.4962 Posted February 4, 2018 Author Share Posted February 4, 2018 @Obtena.7952 said:@Akeno.4962 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@RabbitUp.8294 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@RabbitUp.8294 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@RabbitUp.8294 said:@Obtena.7952 said:?? I don't know what you're talking about if you're accusing me of making up my mind. Anet doesn't plan the meta PERIOD. The meta is determined by players that want to solve encounters optimally. Most things in this game are filler ... because there is usually only a couple of combinations of builds/comps that are optimal to solve a given situation. Therefore, 'filler' doesn't mean much when arguing for change. I'm not arguing that Druid isn't designed to be a powerful healer or not .. it's irrevelant to the discussion; there is ALWAYS going to be a 'best' at something in a game where combinations of classes/builds can be optimized to solve encounter problems. There isn't any reasonable logic to complain about that or claim there is something wrong with it. So you think the constant targeted nerfs and buffs for builds/classes based on their raid performance and benchmarks is a coincidence? Stop you there ... you think Anet are changing class tools because of raid performance and benchmarks RELATIVE to other classes so it's equivalent? Consider the following:Their isn't a reality where Anet is performance balancing classes based on raid performance and such a large difference between class performance can exist, especially after years and numerous balance patches. Those two things are contradictions. I know that the large difference between class performance does exist; so does everyone else ... so there is only one explanation; Anet does not performance balance classes based on raids. But wait ... I know your going to tell me they are working on it and they still are trying to get there. In that case, it doesn't matter anyways because the timescale to achieve balance is SO much longer than the timescale of other changes to the game, so any attempt to performance balance any particular state of the game is a waste of time. Supports haven't been included in the balancing routine during the whole HoT era, because there were no alternatives. Ventari was the closest thing, and they made a flimsy attempt to give it some alacrity, but ultimately dropped it as they knew what they were working on with the PoF specs. Any changes to druid and chrono were for the general health of the game.But dps builds have been constantly being balanced around raid benchmarks. Pick any overperforming benchmark in the last 2 years and check how long it took for them to nerf it. Burnzerker, a bunch of different tempest builds, condi DD, firebrand, mirage.And now that PoF launched 2 new supports, they have made several attempts at nerfing chrono and druid. Of course, if you ask me, they were stupid to launch firebrand and renegade in that state to begin with, but whatever.And how about all the other examples? Do you think the spirit and banner 10-man changes (and GotL before that) could possibly be for any other reason that to counter the mirror meta that everyone was complaining about?I read what you are saying but the fact remains that there is a significant contradiction between the reality of the game and any idea of performance being balanced if you believe that Anet is performance balancing classes according to raids. The range of performance is much to large to even begin to think Anet are making progress to doing this. Your examples don't do anything to address that contradiction; yes Anet has made changes ... and the gap in performance is still very large. Regardless of what you want to believe, the game will still persist for a VERY long time in a state where we don't have performance equivalence among classes and their builds. What does that mean for Support Renegade? It means Renegade might have an opportunity to be 'in' meta ... who doesn't like Alacrity? If Alacrity was your 'in' to the meta, why wouldn't you want to make a build that gives you the best alacrity uptime possible? This is why I like the change ... because as a player, I can consider how to make Alacrity a focus on a build or not. But you don't give any examples. What's that "gap" in performance?Really? just go check the benchmarks in damage on Snow Crows site ... Not sure if you're being serious or not. I think it's generally known that there are massive differences in ability to do damage, heal, etc ... between classes in this game. I would have thought examples were not necessary. If Anet's goal is to provide 'good enough' within a range (I would say a REALLY wide range) and call that balance, then there isn't anything to complain about ... I mean, if a 30K DPSer is 'OK' to have with a 35+ K DPSer ... then how can anyone consider anything in the current state of the game unbalanced?If your only looking at dps.. but we could use some balance in the support department too.You can't measure 'support' to claim it's balanced or not ... so that doesn't make sense. You can, just by having stats of how many groups run druids and chronos. In a community that 90+% of the people only runs the best stuff, having a high amount of running 2 druids and 2 chronos shows a problem in the support department. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 No it doesn't show there is a problem ... it just shows people want to run meta. Even if every class was within the acceptable range of balance of those two for 'support' ... people would still want to run meta. THat happens now ... there are good healers that aren't druid ... in fact, I think they are better healers than druid, like ele. People don't want those. They want druids. The idea that some small buff or change is going to make something meta shows there is a lack of understanding what the meta means ... it means optimized configurations. It means if you aren't the best, you're the worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knox.8962 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 @Jack Skywalker.5674 said:@Knox.8962 said:@MicROpart.7905 said:@Akeno.4962 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Akeno.4962 said:@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I'm running a Harrier renegade, and this news sounds awesome. Now I can cap might, cap alacrity, and heal at the same time.Like I answered on the other thread. I'd LOVE using a renegade with full healer stats. But that's not gonna happen as long as the only thing they could brag about was personal damage compared to a condi druid. Druid does too many thing well: its heals are good enough, its buffs are better, its cc is better, and it can deal with mechanics by exploiting effects we cant because we're so limited in skillset. Support renegade only makes sense as a hybrid between dps and healing in the current meta, so using harrier defeats this purpose.No, it can happen if you stop thinking you can only play optimized builds. Using Harrier seems to me IS a hybrid of DPS and healing ... what else would you use for a hybrid of DPS and healing?Right now? Marshall and/or Viper. Because you get much more dps from condition stats that from power stats without any precision or ferocity. And yeah, I've been playing sub optimal builds for a very long time. But I'm tired of getting kicked of pugs or pugs not joining my groups. However, not thinking you can only play optimized builds must not hide from us the reality that there is a great imbalance among specs supposed to heal.SERAPH would be a good choice..You can actually make a solid single condi setup using seraph gear and krait runes to camp Shortbow. It pulls about 15k DPS or so and heals for WAY more than a condi druid does.Bull.If something that good could be done with the most hated weapon of all time by this comunity there would be videos about it by now.https://dps.report/jrbK-20180124-001735_golemThis was with a mix of viper/apothecary, but the damage output in seraph would be nearly identical.Keep in mind that ARCDPS doesn't track the life steal from Soulcleave as damage. Additionally, there were not enough allies around to proc the bleed spirit, but this should put it at least in the ballpark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 @Obtena.7952 said:Anet doesn't plan the meta PERIOD.The meta is determined by players that want to solve encounters optimally. If you can't understand the contradiction in those two sentences this discussion is pointless.Most things in this game are filler ...there is ALWAYS going to be a 'best' at something in a game where combinations of classes/builds can be optimized to solve encounter problems. There is a difference between being filler and being the filler profession. Rev will never be the best at anything because it can be everything. It is viable for every role in every mode. The consequence is its optimization is entirely dependent on its allies OR Anet designing niches situations the specialists can't perform.This thread is about condi support Renegade. Its job is to synergize with druid/chrono/holosmith/condi daredevil/etcTrying to predict the upcoming nerf and fix it with gear mixing is naive. We will have to reoptimize based on what the other professions do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 There is no contradiction. Anet presents the encounter problem and a whole bunch of tools to players; players figure out how to solve it with those tools. Some players find the optimal solution; this defines the meta. Anet doesn't need to have a idea of what the meta is to design the problem; why would they even care? As long as they have a wide enough range of tools available to players, it's irrelevant to them. It's not their approach to designing encounters that a meta is known prior to setting out to design the encounter. If there was a contradiction and Anet DID create content around a meta, then players could ONLY use the meta to solve those encounter problems. That's not how ANY of the instanced content in this game works. Don't get me wrong .. there are games like that, but this isn't one of them. There isn't any different between those things; that's a pedantic argument. This game is designed in a way that Anet presents encounters to solve to players with tools to solve them. I can only speculate but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that Anet will never design niche roles to ensure that non-meta classes are must-haves in an encounter; that goes VERY much against the way Anet presents problems (ie. encounters) and how they want players to have the freedom to solve those encounters how they see fit. Again, the fact that Anet does NOT design encounters around a meta is also linked to this; Anet cares not how players solve the problems they present to players. They have NO expectation that people should use certain tools to solve the problems. It makes no sense for Anet to restrict players in this way ... especially given the fact the game is intended to allow people the freedom to solve the problems how they want. Yes, the thread is about condi support Renegade ... so what's you're point? What is naive is assuming this is a nerf or assuming you will have to re-optimize based on what other professions are doing ... that's a little premature considering the change isn't in the game yet. Alacrity being a boon might be a GOOD thing for this class, we don't know ... but it's easier to QQ than to anticipate something changing. That's a weird attitude because it's coming Tuesday ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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