I just came back to the game after five years...

[Auturgist.8256]

...and it feels like the balance team hates Thief. Why else would we be completely wrecked by every other melee class, forced to play backcap games and gank without being able to indulge in the fantasy of being an agile, capable assassin? I know that ArenaNet wants the Thief to be more than just the archetypical Rogue from games like WoW, but many of us want that kind of gameplay. That's essentially what the Assassin was in the original Guild Wars. Why is that not viable? Why is Dagger/Dagger not a meta-viable spec in PvP? Who at ArenaNet hates the Thief class?

[MarshallLaw.9260]

@Auturgist.8256 said:...and it feels like the balance team hates Thief. Why else would we be completely wrecked by every other melee class, forced to play backcap games and gank without being able to indulge in the fantasy of being an agile, capable assassin? I know that ArenaNet wants the Thief to be more than just the archetypical Rogue from games like WoW, but many of us want that kind of gameplay. That's essentially what the Assassin was in the original Guild Wars. Why is that not viable? Why is Dagger/Dagger not a meta-viable spec in PvP? Who at ArenaNet hates the Thief class?

Not everything can be meta.D/D is perfectly fine in PvE and playable (but not optimal) in PvP. Thief as a profession is in a middling position where it has both strengths and weaknesses but is neither top nor bottom of the pile across all modes.

Since you mentioned PvP, I'll presume this is the main mode you participate in. Depending on build, thief is still viable in 1v1 scenarios and +1 encounters. It is worth noting (you will probably know this already) that this class has a naturally low health pool and as such tends to be effective when attacking from a distance or using evades/dodges/blinds/stealth to avoid taking damage directly.

[saerni.2584]

@Auturgist.8256 said:...and it feels like the balance team hates Thief. Why else would we be completely wrecked by every other melee class, forced to play backcap games and gank without being able to indulge in the fantasy of being an agile, capable assassin? I know that ArenaNet wants the Thief to be more than just the archetypical Rogue from games like WoW, but many of us want that kind of gameplay. That's essentially what the Assassin was in the original Guild Wars. Why is that not viable? Why is Dagger/Dagger not a meta-viable spec in PvP? Who at ArenaNet hates the Thief class?

D/D is more viable than some people give it credit for. Daredevil is basically an agile assassin but most people aren’t good enough to make it work. That said, D/P has on demand interrupt so a lot of people want to use that purely for that reason.

Thief is in a good place at the moment so give it a try :)

[Ghost.5637]

@saerni.2584 said:

D/D is more viable than some people give it credit for. Daredevil is basically an agile assassin but most people aren’t good enough to make it work. That said, D/P has on demand interrupt so a lot of people want to use that purely for that reason.

This is made very difficult thanks to exhaustion. The biggest flaw of d/d is not being able to approach with stacked stealth, and pretty much requires signet of infiltration(d/p has both tools in just the weapon kit). But when it comes down to it, d/d by itself is okay . It's just when you put d/d up against constant passive blocks, invulns and condi bombs, you're better off just going deadeye and doing twice the damage of backstab at 1500 range.

@Auturgist.8256 said:...and it feels like the balance team hates Thief. Why else would we be completely wrecked by every other melee class, forced to play backcap games and gank without being able to indulge in the fantasy of being an agile, capable assassin?

Good question. I could write an essay on my gripes about warrior but hopefully anet is leaving thief as is because they're trying to tone down the other classes. We're still decent assassins, but it feels like no one takes thief seriously in fights since there are more classes we can't kill rather than can.

[saerni.2584]

The D/D set comes with an evade so you can use that in concert with either Daredevil or Acro in the core line for some very high evasion play.

Lots of thieves play more with S/D because it has an evade and a port and unblockable which outplays the more simple D/D leap and evade skills.

At the end of the day a lot of not taking d/d comes down to preference and familiarity (takes time to relearn how to use it and will generally be bad until that time.

Most D/D players use condi but that has fallen out of favor for S/X due to changes in DA. Note you can also do P/D for condi as well.

The true evade based is probably staff Daredevil but that might not reach the goal of double daggers aesthetically.

[Auturgist.8256]

@saerni.2584 said:The true evade based is probably staff Daredevil but that might not reach the goal of double daggers aesthetically.

Yeah, I have NO DESIRE WHATSOEVER to play a staff Daredevil. I fucking hate Monks in all games (except for the original Guild Wars, ironically), and that just sounds like a Monk. Fuck Monks.

[DeceiverX.8361]

D/D is weak because of animation and defensive powercreep (reduced opportunities to deal damage and negate damage) while it was never really a great kit to begin with aside from the weeks surrounding launch where there was no revealed debuff and culling was a problem.

Death Blossom needs a total rework to make the kit usable on its own, and as Creed said, it's just generally worse than D/P. It also lacks any identity or purpose in sPvP for the +1 role the thief is supposed to fulfill.

It's passable if you play really well, but I'd expect anyone without extensive practice (especially after 5 years of not playing) to completely suck with it, because you need to be better than your opponent to survive an entire fight with just D/D.

It's for this reason I recommend S/D+D/D for WvW and simply recommend not playing D/D in sPvP, as it just doesn't have the diverse tools other kits have.

[saerni.2584]

@Auturgist.8256 said:

@saerni.2584 said:The true evade based is probably staff Daredevil but that might not reach the goal of double daggers aesthetically.

Yeah, I have NO DESIRE WHATSOEVER to play a staff Daredevil. I kitten hate Monks in all games (except for the original Guild Wars, ironically), and that just sounds like a Monk. kitten Monks.

If you want practice in NA going 1v1 for a while I should be online this weekend and on Monday (President’s Day). If you are in EU I have an alt account there but more ideal if you are in NA.

[MakubeC.3026]

I think it all comes to mobility. If they improved the class too much plus left the mobility as it is, it could cause problems.Imagine for example Warriors had the same speed as thieves across the map. Kill you good on every duel and if not, they just ran away and disengaged when you were about to get them. That wouldn't be fun.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@MakubeC.3026 said:I think it all comes to mobility. If they improved the class too much plus left the mobility as it is, it could cause problems.Imagine for example Warriors had the same speed as thieves across the map. Kill you good on every duel and if not, they just ran away and disengaged when you were about to get them. That wouldn't be fun.

Prior to HoT, they actually did. It was called Nike warrior and it was one of the best roaming builds in the game.

Now by relative mobility from powercreep it's slow as hell.