Rifle damage feels really good. Ty anet.

[Crinn.7864]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"Crinn.7864" said:

Vuln does not require any traitline.

Condi engi's problems do not stem from a lack of cover conditions, and come more from a staying alive problem.

Oh we're counting obscurely used sigils over better ones when looking at a professions condi variety, not what I would chose to do..

Condi Engi's problems are more numerous than that as well, Condi Engi lacks condition damage too. The damaging conditions are more infrequent, harder to apply, and tick weaker than better condi build. Thief, Necro, Mesmer, Guard, these professions will instant-kill burst you without clears available. Condi Engi will have 4 burns on the instant burst, down from 8. It's no longer something you are scared of, even if you have to eat it for the 4 seconds you'd normally be ruined by a condi burst.

That's because of condi nerf patch, very much a problem that has nothing to do with condi covering. Adding torment is also adding more throughput which I'm not opposed to, unlike you. I still feel Engi condition variety in a pure condi build without nades is bad.

Adding a stack of torment will not fix your throughput issues, but if you add that torment and then in some later patch the throughput issues are fixed, now you've got a massive balance problem due to excessive amounts of unique conditions baseline to the weapons skills. Have you learned nothing from the history of necromancer about the dangers of adding unique condi access? As for the channel and cast times on pistol; I will point out that the cast times of pistol are no different than necro's, and necros obviously have no issue with condi viability.

As for Fallibility sigils, that sigil is 1 unique condi on a 2sec ICD with zero RNG, it's freaking amazing as a cover source.

[Anthony.3207]

If you wanted to go glass cannon condition there is basically no stateliness for it.

Max glass cannon condi would be like - condi damage. Condi duraction. Condition crit chance. Condition critical tick damage.

Power does more damage but you need a lot of statlines. Condition is more sustain these days which is why. Dire and trailblazer is sorta viable.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

Vuln does not require any traitline.

Condi engi's problems do not stem from a lack of cover conditions, and come more from a staying alive problem.

Oh we're counting obscurely used sigils over better ones when looking at a professions condi variety, not what I would chose to do..

Condi Engi's problems are more numerous than that as well, Condi Engi lacks condition damage too. The damaging conditions are more infrequent, harder to apply, and tick weaker than better condi build. Thief, Necro, Mesmer, Guard, these professions will instant-kill burst you without clears available. Condi Engi will have 4 burns on the instant burst, down from 8. It's no longer something you are scared of, even if you have to eat it for the 4 seconds you'd normally be ruined by a condi burst.

That's because of condi nerf patch, very much a problem that has nothing to do with condi covering. Adding torment is also adding more throughput which I'm not opposed to, unlike you. I still feel Engi condition variety in a pure condi build without nades is bad.

Adding a stack of torment will not fix your throughput issues, but if you add that torment and then in some later patch the throughput issues are fixed, now you've got a massive balance problem due to excessive amounts of unique conditions baseline to the weapons skills. Have you learned nothing from the history of necromancer about the dangers of adding unique condi access? As for the channel and cast times on pistol; I will point out that the cast times of pistol are no different than necro's, and necros obviously have no issue with condi viability.

You mean scourge right? Core necro has as many problems with condi application as engineer does. The difference is that scourge can spam condis like nobody's business.

[Crinn.7864]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

Vuln does not require any traitline.

Condi engi's problems do not stem from a lack of cover conditions, and come more from a staying alive problem.

Oh we're counting obscurely used sigils over better ones when looking at a professions condi variety, not what I would chose to do..

Condi Engi's problems are more numerous than that as well, Condi Engi lacks condition damage too. The damaging conditions are more infrequent, harder to apply, and tick weaker than better condi build. Thief, Necro, Mesmer, Guard, these professions will instant-kill burst you without clears available. Condi Engi will have 4 burns on the instant burst, down from 8. It's no longer something you are scared of, even if you have to eat it for the 4 seconds you'd normally be ruined by a condi burst.

That's because of condi nerf patch, very much a problem that has nothing to do with condi covering. Adding torment is also adding more throughput which I'm not opposed to, unlike you. I still feel Engi condition variety in a pure condi build without nades is bad.

Adding a stack of torment will not fix your throughput issues, but if you add that torment and then in some later patch the throughput issues are fixed, now you've got a massive balance problem due to excessive amounts of unique conditions baseline to the weapons skills. Have you learned nothing from the history of necromancer about the dangers of adding unique condi access? As for the channel and cast times on pistol; I will point out that the cast times of pistol are no different than necro's, and necros obviously have no issue with condi viability.

You mean scourge right? Core necro has as many problems with condi application as engineer does. The difference is that scourge can spam condis like nobody's business.

Core necro's problem is that Core necro had viability problems before HoT, and the devs have made absolutely zero changes to core necro since HoT. In fact core necro is the only core class that has received no notable changes this side of fall 2015. (The only exception being the gutting of Soul Reaping in Q3 2017)Condi Reaper however still has competitive condi application, however the devs spent the last half of 2017 nerfing Reaper's sustain down to Renegade levels.

[Chaith.8256]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

Vuln does not require any traitline.

Condi engi's problems do not stem from a lack of cover conditions, and come more from a staying alive problem.

Oh we're counting obscurely used sigils over better ones when looking at a professions condi variety, not what I would chose to do..

Condi Engi's problems are more numerous than that as well, Condi Engi lacks condition damage too. The damaging conditions are more infrequent, harder to apply, and tick weaker than better condi build. Thief, Necro, Mesmer, Guard, these professions will instant-kill burst you without clears available. Condi Engi will have 4 burns on the instant burst, down from 8. It's no longer something you are scared of, even if you have to eat it for the 4 seconds you'd normally be ruined by a condi burst.

That's because of condi nerf patch, very much a problem that has nothing to do with condi covering. Adding torment is also adding more throughput which I'm not opposed to, unlike you. I still feel Engi condition variety in a pure condi build without nades is bad.

Adding a stack of torment will not fix your throughput issues, but if you add that torment and then in some later patch the throughput issues are fixed, now you've got a massive balance problem due to excessive amounts of unique conditions baseline to the weapons skills. Have you learned nothing from the history of necromancer about the dangers of adding unique condi access? As for the channel and cast times on pistol; I will point out that the cast times of pistol are no different than necro's, and necros obviously have no issue with condi viability.

As for Fallibility sigils, that sigil is 1 unique condi on a 2sec ICD with zero RNG, it's freaking amazing as a cover source.

Equating a torment on static shot to Dumbfire balance patch? One a largely minor but positive change for both damage and fodder application of pistols, the other bringing about condi armageddon, not quite.

So you've also pointed out Necro Sceptre cast times = Engi pistol cast times, and Condi Scourge is good soo... Is there some hidden conclusion here by ignoring the entire contexts of both different professions?

[Crinn.7864]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

Vuln does not require any traitline.

Condi engi's problems do not stem from a lack of cover conditions, and come more from a staying alive problem.

Oh we're counting obscurely used sigils over better ones when looking at a professions condi variety, not what I would chose to do..

Condi Engi's problems are more numerous than that as well, Condi Engi lacks condition damage too. The damaging conditions are more infrequent, harder to apply, and tick weaker than better condi build. Thief, Necro, Mesmer, Guard, these professions will instant-kill burst you without clears available. Condi Engi will have 4 burns on the instant burst, down from 8. It's no longer something you are scared of, even if you have to eat it for the 4 seconds you'd normally be ruined by a condi burst.

That's because of condi nerf patch, very much a problem that has nothing to do with condi covering. Adding torment is also adding more throughput which I'm not opposed to, unlike you. I still feel Engi condition variety in a pure condi build without nades is bad.

Adding a stack of torment will not fix your throughput issues, but if you add that torment and then in some later patch the throughput issues are fixed, now you've got a massive balance problem due to excessive amounts of unique conditions baseline to the weapons skills. Have you learned nothing from the history of necromancer about the dangers of adding unique condi access? As for the channel and cast times on pistol; I will point out that the cast times of pistol are no different than necro's, and necros obviously have no issue with condi viability.

As for Fallibility sigils, that sigil is 1 unique condi on a 2sec ICD with zero RNG, it's freaking amazing as a cover source.

Equating a torment on static shot to Dumbfire balance patch? One a largely minor but positive change for both damage and fodder application of pistols, the other bringing about condi armageddon, not quite.

So you've also pointed out Necro Sceptre cast times = Engi pistol cast times, and Condi Scourge is good soo... Is there some hidden conclusion here by ignoring the entire contexts of both different professions?

I was not in any way equating torment on static to the infamous Dhuumfire patch. I was referring more to the history of necro post-HoT. The potency of condi necro in more recent times is tied exclusively to what happens when you combine throughput with easy cover condition access. With the proposed change static would be applying 3 unique conditions baseline to the skill. Not even the almighty Scourge has 3 unique conditions baseline to any skill. (elite skills withstanding)

So you've also pointed out Necro Sceptre cast times = Engi pistol cast times, and Condi Scourge is good soo... Is there some hidden conclusion here by ignoring the entire contexts of both different professions?The widely different contexts of necro and engi are exactly why such a change scares me. Necro has kept itself almost permanently meta for the past 2 years exclusively on the strength of condi variety + throughput, with the class lacking any other redeeming factors. Engineer has built it's strength on the profession's flexibility and adaptability. If you push for condi engineer to gain more cover conditions then you will never be able to give the class relevant throughput without creating a monster that puts Scourge to shame.

[Atmaweapon.7345]

Aren't you forced to take certain kits to deal relevant Condi damage? I'm pretty sure that puts a dent in Engineer's inherent flexibility.

[Chaith.8256]

@Crinn.7864 said:

I was not in any way equating torment on static to the infamous Dhuumfire patch. I was referring more to the history of necro post-HoT. The potency of condi necro in more recent times is tied exclusively to what happens when you combine throughput with easy cover condition access. With the proposed change static would be applying 3 unique conditions baseline to the skill. Not even the almighty Scourge has 3 unique conditions baseline to any skill. (elite skills withstanding)

So you've also pointed out Necro Sceptre cast times = Engi pistol cast times, and Condi Scourge is good soo... Is there some hidden conclusion here by ignoring the entire contexts of both different professions?The widely different contexts of necro and engi are exactly why such a change scares me. Necro has kept itself almost permanently meta for the past 2 years exclusively on the strength of condi variety + throughput, with the class lacking any other redeeming factors. Engineer has built it's strength on the profession's flexibility and adaptability. If you push for condi engineer to gain more cover conditions then you will never be able to give the class relevant throughput without creating a monster that puts Scourge to shame.

Engi built it's strength over the years on Strong teamfight cleave and sometimes strong 1v1 matchups, interesting perspective from a Necro though.

We don't know if future balance patches will overbuff Engi throughput, or overbuff Engi condi variety. You dont know that future buffs to throughput will ignore context of better condi variety.

Let's just assume once condi Engi is balanced, if ArenaNet chooses to ignore things like condition variety and buff it further into Monster territory, that discussion is separate from what Engi needs now to be balanced vs. its power options and other current professions.

Again, I'm saying that right now pure condi Engi needs both more condi variety (apart from nades) and more damage in PvP

[Crinn.7864]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

I was not in any way equating torment on static to the infamous Dhuumfire patch. I was referring more to the history of necro post-HoT. The potency of condi necro in more recent times is tied exclusively to what happens when you combine throughput with easy cover condition access. With the proposed change static would be applying 3 unique conditions baseline to the skill. Not even the almighty Scourge has 3 unique conditions baseline to any skill. (elite skills withstanding)

So you've also pointed out Necro Sceptre cast times = Engi pistol cast times, and Condi Scourge is good soo... Is there some hidden conclusion here by ignoring the entire contexts of both different professions?The widely different contexts of necro and engi are exactly why such a change scares me. Necro has kept itself almost permanently meta for the past 2 years exclusively on the strength of condi variety + throughput, with the class lacking any other redeeming factors. Engineer has built it's strength on the profession's flexibility and adaptability. If you push for condi engineer to gain more cover conditions then you will never be able to give the class relevant throughput without creating a monster that puts Scourge to shame.

Engi built it's strength over the years on Strong teamfight cleave and sometimes strong 1v1 matchups, interesting perspective from a Necro though.

We don't know if future balance patches will overbuff Engi throughput, or overbuff Engi condi variety. You dont know that future buffs to throughput will ignore context of better condi variety.

Let's just assume once condi Engi is balanced, if ArenaNet chooses to ignore things like condition variety and buff it further into Monster territory, that discussion is separate from what Engi needs now to be balanced vs. its power options and other current professions.

Again, I'm saying that right now pure condi Engi needs both more condi variety (apart from nades) and more damage in PvP

As I see it, condi builds should either have lots of cover variety, or lots of damage. If you combine both you get Scourge. A build that has lots of cover but lesser damage is by nature a attrition build, Condi Reaper post Q2 2016 is a good example of this. However to make a attrition build work the build has to have the ability to stay in a protracted fight. Condi Engi does not strike me as a build that likes to stay in the thick of it, but rather likes to hit the target then hide behind a rock. As such I think it would be better off leaning towards the lots of damage with low cover.

We don't know if future balance patches will overbuff Engi throughput, or overbuff Engi condi variety. You dont know that future buffs to throughput will ignore context of better condi variety.Neither Scrapper nor Holosmith has anything to do with condi, which means that there is a pretty good chance that the next engi elite spec could be condi related, and Anet does have a pretty consistent track record when it comes to new elites ignoring the context of the existing class.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

I was not in any way equating torment on static to the infamous Dhuumfire patch. I was referring more to the history of necro post-HoT. The potency of condi necro in more recent times is tied exclusively to what happens when you combine throughput with easy cover condition access. With the proposed change static would be applying 3 unique conditions baseline to the skill. Not even the almighty Scourge has 3 unique conditions baseline to any skill. (elite skills withstanding)

So you've also pointed out Necro Sceptre cast times = Engi pistol cast times, and Condi Scourge is good soo... Is there some hidden conclusion here by ignoring the entire contexts of both different professions?The widely different contexts of necro and engi are exactly why such a change scares me. Necro has kept itself almost permanently meta for the past 2 years exclusively on the strength of condi variety + throughput, with the class lacking any other redeeming factors. Engineer has built it's strength on the profession's flexibility and adaptability. If you push for condi engineer to gain more cover conditions then you will never be able to give the class relevant throughput without creating a monster that puts Scourge to shame.

Engi built it's strength over the years on Strong teamfight cleave and sometimes strong 1v1 matchups, interesting perspective from a Necro though.

We don't know if future balance patches will overbuff Engi throughput, or overbuff Engi condi variety. You dont know that future buffs to throughput will ignore context of better condi variety.

Let's just assume once condi Engi is balanced, if ArenaNet chooses to ignore things like condition variety and buff it further into Monster territory, that discussion is separate from what Engi needs now to be balanced vs. its power options and other current professions.

Again, I'm saying that right now pure condi Engi needs both more condi variety (apart from nades) and more damage in PvP

As I see it, condi builds should either have lots of cover variety, or lots of damage. If you combine both you get Scourge. A build that has lots of cover but lesser damage is by nature a attrition build, Condi Reaper post Q2 2016 is a good example of this. However to make a attrition build work the build has to have the ability to stay in a protracted fight. Condi Engi does not strike me as a build that likes to stay in the thick of it, but rather likes to hit the target then hide behind a rock. As such I think it would be better off leaning towards the lots of damage with low cover.

But condi engineer's burst as a whole is at the weakest it's ever been. We apply conditions like an attrition class, but have the survivability of a spike class in those scenarios. At least before the Incendiary Ammo nerf, you could say that we can burst burning, but now? You have to do some weird stuff to pull that off, and it's not very good.

We don't know if future balance patches will overbuff Engi throughput, or overbuff Engi condi variety. You dont know that future buffs to throughput will ignore context of better condi variety.Neither Scrapper nor Holosmith has anything to do with condi, which means that there is a pretty good chance that the next engi elite spec could be condi related, and Anet does have a pretty consistent track record when it comes to new elites ignoring the context of the existing class.

Holosmith does actually apply burning through many of its skills and traits, but the duration is so short and the optimal traits for it will hurt you (Photonic Blasting Module + Solar Focusing Lens), that it's not worth taking in a competitive setting.

I did actually try to make a burning build out of this, but the fact is that unless the other person wasn't paying attention, they cleansed the condis pretty quickly. The build also left me quite helpless, as the traitlines we need to push condi hard are competing with our defensive traitlines.