I'm so glad I went back to Guardian, I feel for you all.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Some of the issues are people crying about necro when they are counterable though.I mean reaper is slow very slow and yes it hits hard, but it can be cced and Ranged very very easily and its already quite weak in its base form in terms of sustain.

In wow they managed to have at least 1 or more of each spec viable in something.

In guild wars 2 Some classes aren't even viable in 2 modes such as necromancer. Im not saying the problems in pvp don't exist, nor am I saying they are exaggerated, but there must be a way to make necromancers viewed as not op

OP is a player perception that I believe is rarely based on provable facts and statements. We have people in professions that are really strong that now claim they are useless due to one nerf that pulls them closer in line with other professions (Elemenalist/Weaver). We have a thread were Ranger players and Theif players are fighting it out to be able to claim they are worse off than Necromancer. I really don't think there is anything that ANet can do to make people feel that it's not OP when it isn't OP. I think if that were possible then Necromancer wouldn't suffer the auto kick in PvE content so often as there are times when it gets auto kicked and it is more than capable of handling the content in question.

Actually my perception is that reaper in pve is quite strong and I stated so, I am just concerned that reaper may take lets say unneeded nerfs that put them back in the gutter. We all know how Anet likes to nerf things at times with a chainsaw.

Ah, I get you now. I wish Revenant players were as reasonable as Necromancer players when it came to nerfs. They seem to think that if you take something that is already working just fine and make it work even better that it wouldn't be nerfed. The idea that ANet would nerf stuff seems foreign to some of them.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@KolderThanYou.9018 said:

@Kam.4092 said:So many of my Necromancer friends have quit too. They got fed up.

Yeah and my

entire guild

that was exclusively Necromancer quit.. I've finally come back after a few years of leaving. I imagined things would have changed... there's no f-cking way a company would bury the disapproval of their customers for this long. Yet here we are, Necromancers are back to being auto-kicked from every bit of content and has basically turned this game into an empty single player game. I only summon my minions so I can pretend this is an MMORPG as they hit softer than those wild boars in the starting zone and are painfully ugly (while other Undead/Necromantic themed creatures have higher quality, concept and execution) to look at.

I tried to distract myself from the fact that my class is abandoned, my guild has left and I'm barred from the majority of content for simply

BEING

a Necromancer.. but it's time to move on for good this time. I'm going back to League of Legends or Fortnite, hopefully I'll see you there instead.

I have doubts that ANet buried the disapproval of their customers. They have attempted to make several fixes to Necromancer. They just don't work. The problem isn't that ANet doesn't want to fix it or doesn't care to fix it. After six years I think the problem should be as clear as day, Necromancer has some core design flaws and due to that, it can't be fixed without a 100% complete redesign. At this stage, a complete redesign is unlikely though.

@Axl.8924 said:

@"Derkon.7408" said:I will be honest, I started as an elementalist, and necromancer was one of the few classes that caught my attention as an over-all feel, the joke is that they seem to be the exact opposites, necro is amazing when out of group but starts to lack in group scenarios, and ele is an absolute trash on its own, but used to be boosted to infinity in group content.

Guild wars 2 seems unable to balance the content in a way to have classes all desired equally.If they nerf core like some people crying for nerfs to core, you end up with being forced to go to the new spec, because the core spec becomes trash.If you nerf the newest elite spec like with scourge, you end up with the new one being trash, and being forced to not play it.

I am still waiting for changes maybe hoping the channeling on meteor gets improved, because I think the channeling is a little long.

To be fair, I know of few games that balance content in such a way as to have all classes equally desired. I think it's an impossible task and the best we can hope for is not too much drift between the best and worst options. In this case though, as you and I have discussed before, with the problem being located in core Necro design there isn't much of a fix so long as the core profession remains unchanged.

The issue is more or less player mentality more than balance.

Necro is always either weak in PvE due to lower damage and strong in PvP because of its control and durability, or the opposite case where it's weak in PvP because it has no sustain and passable in PvE because of damage increases. It continues along said axis. It's why scourge got nerfed in its damage and why reaper got completely gutted in its sustain. Because of the underlying vision of the class being a control mage + health sponge. That concept just doesn't work in GW2.

It's only problematic because people optimize so hard for PvE damage. And Raids encourage it. Necro was never supposed to be a DPS leader because it'd be broken otherwise since it does so many other things better than other professions.

No matter how much people get upset about it, it's never going to be in a good spot unless they basically just remove the entire concept of necro from the game. But there's really not much more ANet can do because raids are built on the trinity and there are so many other professions and specs which are designed to fill such a role. And in most cases we just see that one spec outright replaces another more than anything else because people tryhard for optimization like they're setting world records.

A simple shroud rework won't fix it. If shroud becomes a DPS tool all that happens is the class just leans even further towards one extreme or the other in the PvP modes, as Shroud's defenses carry necro in PvP.

Oh, I have argued on numerous occasions is that part of the problem for Necromancer is the attitude of the playerbase at large and the PvE desire for optimal efficency over all else. All things considered, if people are willing to accept a slightly lower leve of efficeny Necromancer can do most of the PvE content. It may take people a bit longer but it is possible. Sadly, changing player attitudes towards how Raids and Fractals should be run, and as a result broadening the scope of all manner of acceptable builds that currently go ignored, is less likely than ANet doing a complete rework of the profession. Such a change in attitude would likely solve a lot of balance based issues for more than just Necromancer.

Thing is, if it is a player perception, there can't be concessions made by ANet. This makes way for powercreep or unnecessary changes/nerfs. I stopped playing reaper and really GW2 in general because these last round of changes made the class as a whole perform worse in the PvP modes and would me to re-stat literally every single piece of gear for it, with the character being total trash until every piece was re-acquired. Much of the changes weren't made intelligently and had little regard for the greater contexts of the game. People are happy because the single most generic and obvious build is usable in PvE, but yet I can't even take mine into WvW without a full re-gear, and will still also perform worse than before.

In my experince, it is rarely the case that a game designer is simply ignoring the playerbase or doesn't care about the issue. This is their livelyhood, after all.Which is the assumption far too many players make.

I initially had a wall of text I wrote on this before I decided to scrap it all because it just seemed too abrasive towards ANet and would probably get me in trouble.I'll sum it up briefly: my personal experience dealing with the ANet professions team - and yes, I do have such experience - is unfortunately the contrary to what yours is.

Why are you restating PvP gear? It has flat stats already. So what your gear stats were before any nerfs or changes is immaterial since gear is unaffected in PvP. Also, I still contend that ANet is not specifically ignoring the concerns of Necromancer players, or any playerbase really. They have made numerous changes to the profession. However, as has been discussed in other threads, Necromancer suffers from design problems that keep it at the bottom. A complete redesign at this point is just not feasible as no matter what happens ANet loses out, as would some players.

"PvP modes" includes WvW. Which face it, has a way healthier population and doesn't require grinding games that are stomps in either direction. sPvP is kinda dead in this game and gear has clear optima anyways, which usually aren't balanced and leaves little room for tweaking to account for slight stylistic or numerical choices based on trait configurations.

Though they still did remove a mass amount of consistency from some of the build options that were previously available. Reaper for example has one very clear best amulet and it takes almost zero thought to realize it and allows for next to no micro-adjustments based on matchups or stylistic choices.

[Dace.8173]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Some of the issues are people crying about necro when they are counterable though.I mean reaper is slow very slow and yes it hits hard, but it can be cced and Ranged very very easily and its already quite weak in its base form in terms of sustain.

In wow they managed to have at least 1 or more of each spec viable in something.

In guild wars 2 Some classes aren't even viable in 2 modes such as necromancer. Im not saying the problems in pvp don't exist, nor am I saying they are exaggerated, but there must be a way to make necromancers viewed as not op

OP is a player perception that I believe is rarely based on provable facts and statements. We have people in professions that are really strong that now claim they are useless due to one nerf that pulls them closer in line with other professions (Elemenalist/Weaver). We have a thread were Ranger players and Theif players are fighting it out to be able to claim they are worse off than Necromancer. I really don't think there is anything that ANet can do to make people feel that it's not OP when it isn't OP. I think if that were possible then Necromancer wouldn't suffer the auto kick in PvE content so often as there are times when it gets auto kicked and it is more than capable of handling the content in question.

Actually my perception is that reaper in pve is quite strong and I stated so, I am just concerned that reaper may take lets say unneeded nerfs that put them back in the gutter. We all know how Anet likes to nerf things at times with a chainsaw.

Ah, I get you now. I wish Revenant players were as reasonable as Necromancer players when it came to nerfs. They seem to think that if you take something that is already working just fine and make it work even better that it wouldn't be nerfed. The idea that ANet would nerf stuff seems foreign to some of them.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@KolderThanYou.9018 said:

@Kam.4092 said:So many of my Necromancer friends have quit too. They got fed up.

Yeah and my

entire guild

that was exclusively Necromancer quit.. I've finally come back after a few years of leaving. I imagined things would have changed... there's no f-cking way a company would bury the disapproval of their customers for this long. Yet here we are, Necromancers are back to being auto-kicked from every bit of content and has basically turned this game into an empty single player game. I only summon my minions so I can pretend this is an MMORPG as they hit softer than those wild boars in the starting zone and are painfully ugly (while other Undead/Necromantic themed creatures have higher quality, concept and execution) to look at.

I tried to distract myself from the fact that my class is abandoned, my guild has left and I'm barred from the majority of content for simply

BEING

a Necromancer.. but it's time to move on for good this time. I'm going back to League of Legends or Fortnite, hopefully I'll see you there instead.

I have doubts that ANet buried the disapproval of their customers. They have attempted to make several fixes to Necromancer. They just don't work. The problem isn't that ANet doesn't want to fix it or doesn't care to fix it. After six years I think the problem should be as clear as day, Necromancer has some core design flaws and due to that, it can't be fixed without a 100% complete redesign. At this stage, a complete redesign is unlikely though.

@Axl.8924 said:

@"Derkon.7408" said:I will be honest, I started as an elementalist, and necromancer was one of the few classes that caught my attention as an over-all feel, the joke is that they seem to be the exact opposites, necro is amazing when out of group but starts to lack in group scenarios, and ele is an absolute trash on its own, but used to be boosted to infinity in group content.

Guild wars 2 seems unable to balance the content in a way to have classes all desired equally.If they nerf core like some people crying for nerfs to core, you end up with being forced to go to the new spec, because the core spec becomes trash.If you nerf the newest elite spec like with scourge, you end up with the new one being trash, and being forced to not play it.

I am still waiting for changes maybe hoping the channeling on meteor gets improved, because I think the channeling is a little long.

To be fair, I know of few games that balance content in such a way as to have all classes equally desired. I think it's an impossible task and the best we can hope for is not too much drift between the best and worst options. In this case though, as you and I have discussed before, with the problem being located in core Necro design there isn't much of a fix so long as the core profession remains unchanged.

The issue is more or less player mentality more than balance.

Necro is always either weak in PvE due to lower damage and strong in PvP because of its control and durability, or the opposite case where it's weak in PvP because it has no sustain and passable in PvE because of damage increases. It continues along said axis. It's why scourge got nerfed in its damage and why reaper got completely gutted in its sustain. Because of the underlying vision of the class being a control mage + health sponge. That concept just doesn't work in GW2.

It's only problematic because people optimize so hard for PvE damage. And Raids encourage it. Necro was never supposed to be a DPS leader because it'd be broken otherwise since it does so many other things better than other professions.

No matter how much people get upset about it, it's never going to be in a good spot unless they basically just remove the entire concept of necro from the game. But there's really not much more ANet can do because raids are built on the trinity and there are so many other professions and specs which are designed to fill such a role. And in most cases we just see that one spec outright replaces another more than anything else because people tryhard for optimization like they're setting world records.

A simple shroud rework won't fix it. If shroud becomes a DPS tool all that happens is the class just leans even further towards one extreme or the other in the PvP modes, as Shroud's defenses carry necro in PvP.

Oh, I have argued on numerous occasions is that part of the problem for Necromancer is the attitude of the playerbase at large and the PvE desire for optimal efficency over all else. All things considered, if people are willing to accept a slightly lower leve of efficeny Necromancer can do most of the PvE content. It may take people a bit longer but it is possible. Sadly, changing player attitudes towards how Raids and Fractals should be run, and as a result broadening the scope of all manner of acceptable builds that currently go ignored, is less likely than ANet doing a complete rework of the profession. Such a change in attitude would likely solve a lot of balance based issues for more than just Necromancer.

Thing is, if it is a player perception, there can't be concessions made by ANet. This makes way for powercreep or unnecessary changes/nerfs. I stopped playing reaper and really GW2 in general because these last round of changes made the class as a whole perform worse in the PvP modes and would me to re-stat literally every single piece of gear for it, with the character being total trash until every piece was re-acquired. Much of the changes weren't made intelligently and had little regard for the greater contexts of the game. People are happy because the single most generic and obvious build is usable in PvE, but yet I can't even take mine into WvW without a full re-gear, and will still also perform worse than before.

In my experince, it is rarely the case that a game designer is simply ignoring the playerbase or doesn't care about the issue. This is their livelyhood, after all.Which is the assumption far too many players make.

I initially had a wall of text I wrote on this before I decided to scrap it all because it just seemed too abrasive towards ANet and would probably get me in trouble.I'll sum it up briefly: my personal experience dealing with the ANet professions team - and yes, I do have such experience - is unfortunately the contrary to what yours is.

Why are you restating PvP gear? It has flat stats already. So what your gear stats were before any nerfs or changes is immaterial since gear is unaffected in PvP. Also, I still contend that ANet is not specifically ignoring the concerns of Necromancer players, or any playerbase really. They have made numerous changes to the profession. However, as has been discussed in other threads, Necromancer suffers from design problems that keep it at the bottom. A complete redesign at this point is just not feasible as no matter what happens ANet loses out, as would some players.

"PvP modes" includes WvW. Which face it, has a way healthier population and doesn't require grinding games that are stomps in either direction. sPvP is kinda dead in this game and gear has clear optima anyways, which usually aren't balanced and leaves little room for tweaking to account for slight stylistic or numerical choices based on trait configurations.

Though they still did remove a mass amount of consistency from some of the build options that were previously available. Reaper for example has one very clear best amulet and it takes almost zero thought to realize it and allows for next to no micro-adjustments based on matchups or stylistic choices.

You can't say PvP and assume people know you mean WvW. WvW is not strictly PvP and there are enough differences that it is really it's own mode of play. Since you can do more than PvP in WvW builds that don't rely on hunting down and killing other players become more viable. PvP builds aren't always good builds to run in WvW, based mostly on what you are trying to do. I also don't think PvP is as dead as people keep claiming as there always seems to be people playing it. When I go to PvP I never wait long for a match up.

[DeceiverX.8361]

I'm sorry, what exactly about WvW isn't PvP?Lords and camps? The same could be said about sPvP's AI objectives.

As an FYI:
'PvP' is a term used for all Player vs Player competition.What you're referring to as 'PvP' is formally called 'sPvP' AKA 'Structured Player vs Player.'WvW is similarly a 'PvP' game mode.

Thus the phrase "PvP game modes" being a superset of both WvW.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Player_versus_Player

Normal games in sPvP generally have lower queues because they can ignore rank.

sPvP queue times also drastically dropped because ANet added in sPvP-exclusive rewards and many other things to lure non-sPvP players into it. Prior to the addition of PvE-purposed rewards, queue times were usually around 20 mins or longer for ranked play for high platinum/diamond, which is really bad in comparison to the 3-5 mins from a few years prior. ANet also has since expanded the criteria of rank profiling auto-balancing can work with due to lower player numbers.

Maybe it's gotten more popular since (which I doubt), or maybe you're on EU and I'm speaking from the NA perspective, but sPvP's population is the second-lowest in the game IIRC, second only to raiding (based on the game mode breakdown numbers posted about a year ago by ANet).

Which also begs the question... if only a tiny fraction of players raid... why do professions get balanced around it?

[Nimon.7840]

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:I'm sorry, what exactly about WvW isn't PvP?Lords and camps? The same could be said about sPvP's AI objectives.

As an FYI:

'PvP' is a term used for all Player vs Player competition.What you're referring to as 'PvP' is formally called 'sPvP' AKA 'Structured Player vs Player.'WvW is similarly a 'PvP' game mode.

Thus the phrase "PvP game modes" being a superset of both WvW.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Player_versus_Player

Normal games in sPvP generally have lower queues because they can ignore rank.

sPvP queue times also drastically dropped because ANet added in sPvP-exclusive rewards and many other things to lure non-sPvP players into it. Prior to the addition of PvE-purposed rewards, queue times were usually around 20 mins or longer for ranked play for high platinum/diamond, which is really bad in comparison to the 3-5 mins from a few years prior. ANet also has since expanded the criteria of rank profiling auto-balancing can work with due to lower player numbers.

Maybe it's gotten more popular since (which I doubt), or maybe you're on EU and I'm speaking from the NA perspective, but sPvP's population is the second-lowest in the game IIRC, second only to raiding (based on the game mode breakdown numbers posted about a year ago by ANet).

Which also begs the question... if only a tiny fraction of players raid... why do professions get balanced around it?

So if that's really true, it's pretty funny. People crying for spvp changes, but don't want classes changed based on raid environment.

Even though it's more work, you have to use the skill split system.It's way too much powercreep.And in raids you maybe need this.

But then there's thiefes running around in wvw backstabbing you from stealth for 16-20k.

So you will either need to tone down dmg there by 50% so that it actually needs skill to kill someone or just give everyone like triple health.

[Dace.8173]

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:I'm sorry, what exactly about WvW isn't PvP?Lords and camps? The same could be said about sPvP's AI objectives.

As an FYI:

'PvP' is a term used for all Player vs Player competition.What you're referring to as 'PvP' is formally called 'sPvP' AKA 'Structured Player vs Player.'WvW is similarly a 'PvP' game mode.

Thus the phrase "PvP game modes" being a superset of both WvW.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Player_versus_Player

Normal games in sPvP generally have lower queues because they can ignore rank.

sPvP queue times also drastically dropped because ANet added in sPvP-exclusive rewards and many other things to lure non-sPvP players into it. Prior to the addition of PvE-purposed rewards, queue times were usually around 20 mins or longer for ranked play for high platinum/diamond, which is really bad in comparison to the 3-5 mins from a few years prior. ANet also has since expanded the criteria of rank profiling auto-balancing can work with due to lower player numbers.

Maybe it's gotten more popular since (which I doubt), or maybe you're on EU and I'm speaking from the NA perspective, but sPvP's population is the second-lowest in the game IIRC, second only to raiding (based on the game mode breakdown numbers posted about a year ago by ANet).

Which also begs the question... if only a tiny fraction of players raid... why do professions get balanced around it?

Lords, camps, pretty much anything that doesn't require interaction with the opposing team. Being as how you can earn participation points and rewards without needing to encounter a player from the opposing side once would indicate that WvW has more going on than PvP. Maybe you use it to PvP but there are other folks that don't. In PvP you have to interact and face off against the opposing team, it is not an optional choice, even on maps with AI objectives.

[spartan.9421]

@Xuazinegueri.3592 said:

@KolderThanYou.9018 said:

@Kam.4092 said:So many of my Necromancer friends have quit too. They got fed up.

Yeah and my

entire guild

that was exclusively Necromancer quit.. I've finally come back after a few years of leaving. I imagined things would have changed... there's no f-cking way a company would bury the disapproval of their customers for this long. Yet here we are, Necromancers are back to being auto-kicked from every bit of content and has basically turned this game into an empty single player game. I only summon my minions so I can pretend this is an MMORPG as they hit softer than those wild boars in the starting zone and are painfully ugly (while other Undead/Necromantic themed creatures have higher quality, concept and execution) to look at.

I tried to distract myself from the fact that my class is abandoned, my guild has left and I'm barred from the majority of content for simply

BEING

a Necromancer.. but it's time to move on for good this time. I'm going back to League of Legends or Fortnite, hopefully I'll see you there instead.

Why are you ressing a tread from july? Btw, necromancers got some buffs lately

He's a necro main

[Aplethoraof.2643]

I'll be honest, I migrated to mesmer when they gave Scourge in-build lag on its f-keys, and I've stayed comfortably there. I knew nerfs would eventually be fixed, classes wax and wane with each update. But a delay on a skill has got to be the worst mechanic I've never seen. It feels awful to play, and it is really irritating that the class I enjoyed was ruined (for me) in such a manner.

But, mesmer is fine enough now. It has similar condi potential to scourge, perhaps even better. Dodging and clones are fun, and I can play a psudo minion master with every build. Having real mobility is quite nice, too.

I never liked death shroud, but I stuck with necromancer since release because I enjoyed it thematically. When scourge came around, I was hyped since I never really liked death shroud. Buuut, they the in-build lag happened. The delay on the f-keys just killed it for me. I couldn't go back to reaper, because I didn't like the whole "change for 5 seconds", due to the increased life-force cost, style of gameplay, though I did also enjoy my condi-reaper back during its day.

Turns out greener pastures are greener though. I still miss my necromancer, but gameplay wise my mesmer is way more fun to play. Until they release (and don't screw up) another shroudless necromancer e-spec or they remove that delay, mesmer I will stay.

It basically feels like anet bait and switched me. Changing reaper shroud, adding the delay on the f-keys. Those kinds of things to change the gameplay of the classes, and their feel when playing them. And in this case, they changed the class into something I don't enjoy. Its just irritating.

RiP necro :( You are missed.