[Teef] Open Deadeye Training 6-7th October

[Jana.6831]

@BoX Legend.4027 said:P/P is far from overbuffed.Even in PvE, P/P is trash at anything but flavor killing.A try to not have it nerfed? It has got a lot of utility and a lot of damage - the damage is too much when spamming unload. And I was referring to the damage, not the utility in general. I'm running P/P, depending on the situation. PvE is a snoozefest =)

[BoX Legend.4027]

@Jana.6831 said:

@BoX Legend.4027 said:P/P is far from overbuffed.Even in PvE, P/P is trash at anything but flavor killing.A try to not have it nerfed? It has got a lot of utility and a lot of damage - the damage is too much when spamming unload. And I was referring to the damage, not the utility in general. I'm running P/P, depending on the situation. PvE is a snoozefest =)

The damage on P/P has some merit in PvP, but it is way too easy to counter to be a viable option in that. If any part of it is dodged, you don't get your initiative back, if it is blocked you wasted all of your burst, if it is reflected you die. I have never seen it used past gold in PvP, and in WvW i seldom see it. It can take me by surprise, sure, but if I'm playing any class with a reflect they will just kill themselves. There isn't enough utility to do anything about that... The other abilities aren't worth using as you are forced to spam 3.

[Jana.6831]

If spamming unload on a target that is distracted the damage is still too high (I already said that btw - could you please read what I write if you're referring to it?) and if anet comes around to balance the rest they have to balance unload as well.You can dodge as well, btw. Even your own reflected damage. And you don't have to stand there spamming 3.There's a lot of D/P who only spam headshot which P/P can as well. I guess it's underused because D/P still is the better option.

[BoX Legend.4027]

I understand you can dodge, but I'm saying the kit doesn't have enough in it of any use. If the basic attack can't do the damage you need, you have to spend initiative. And the only damaging skill is the 3, therefore you will be spending most of your time using 3. You might not spam it, but your basic attack isn't going to hurt anyone, so in the time between shooting your 3 and waiting for more initiative you can't do much. I understand what you are saying, I'm not arguing that the damage isn't good in PvP; it is. But D/P is used instead because of, well, everything. It does more DPS than P/P (albeit less burst) and every ability has a use, along with the second best thief auto attack in the game.

[Jana.6831]

It's ranged - of course it was initially designed with a low auto attack damage. This game used to make sense once upon a time and all ranged weapons were low risk: low reward with a nice costly burst.I don't really get your point to be honest as you're more or less just repeating what I said.You want all auto attacks to be buffed? But that kind of was what destroyed this game. D AA is overpowered as well, yes, the current playstyle seems to be: D/P DrD - dodge dodge dodge #4 stun, #3 blind, #5 blind, AA enemy dead.Every day some buddy writes me that they've quit and the mindless spam is why. So lets get away from that.

[BoX Legend.4027]

@Jana.6831 said:It's ranged - of course it was initially designed with a low auto attack damage. This game used to make sense once upon a time and all ranged weapons were low risk: low reward with a nice costly burst.I don't really get your point to be honest as you're more or less just repeating what I said.You want all auto attacks to be buffed? But that kind of was what destroyed this game. D AA is overpowered as well, yes, the current playstyle seems to be: D/P DrD - dodge dodge dodge #4 stun, #3 blind, #5 blind, AA enemy dead.Every day some buddy writes me that they've quit and the mindless spam is why. So lets get away from that.

I don't think it can be buffed... read my original reply. I want it reworked.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Jana.6831 said:If spamming unload on a target that is distracted the damage is still too high (I already said that btw - could you please read what I write if you're referring to it?) and if anet comes around to balance the rest they have to balance unload as well.You can dodge as well, btw. Even your own reflected damage. And you don't have to stand there spamming 3.There's a lot of D/P who only spam headshot which P/P can as well. I guess it's underused because D/P still is the better option.

More so because people say that P/P was just bad. But this is also from people who often make the assumption that you must always take Shortbow. You don't have to, it's not coherently better. It provides a strong movement ability which is pretty much the only reason why people take it, and a dodge. But the two AOE abilities are just shit if you don't have Condi in your build. So... Grievers, or Vipers helps it out tremendously.

[Jana.6831]

@BoX Legend.4027 said:I don't think it can be buffed... read my original reply. I want it reworked.That was your original reply.P/P is far from overbuffed

On that our discussion evolved. I gave you reasons why I think P/P is OP and also why it is the way it is and also some examples what you can do with that set. In this current meta (speaking of pvp and wvw) it might not seem OP because everything else is. Still with the thought in mind that you're low risk high reward it is too much. You can compare it to what warrior rifle does or dragonhunter but that doesn't mean that they aren't OP as well.I used P/P for the last story before PoF to spam headshot and to burst. I also used it on this one tricky boss on some HoT map which is incredibly hard to stun and I know it was only me (and some guy) who secured that kill because we knew what we were doing. If you just spam away without any clue what your set can actually do it will seem underpowered to you, yes.And the probably same is true for rifle which I can't tell because a) I hate nothing more than being rooted (lie there's a lot more I hate more) and b) because I quit the game because of people like you who want more and more damage without even knowing what their set can do.A weaponset requires not only the weapons but also the traits and utility - if you set up all of that for P/P you shouldn't have any probems. If you have troubles with a breakbar equip Thieve's guild and use Devourer Venom - should do the trick. Except if the breakbar isn't meant to be broken alone - but even then you can defeat a mob.

[Jana.6831]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:More so because people say that P/P was just bad. But this is also from people who often make the assumption that you must always take Shortbow. You don't have to, it's not coherently better. It provides a strong movement ability which is pretty much the only reason why people take it, and a dodge. But the two AOE abilities are just kitten if you don't have Condi in your build. So... Grievers, or Vipers helps it out tremendously.

It depends on what you want to do. I was a roamer/zerg thief hybrid in wvw and SB worked fine for me. It could use a slight overwork depending cluster and detonaate cluster - they're too slow at range to really be good, but other than that I was fine with how it was.Now, if I had played mostly small havoc then P/P would've been my choice.

The Box Legend guy seems to play only PvE and compares his weapon to Ranger Long Bow. He doesn't need the utility P/P brings, he only needs raw damage.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

@Jana.6831 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:More so because people say that P/P was just bad. But this is also from people who often make the assumption that you must always take Shortbow. You don't have to, it's not coherently better. It provides a strong movement ability which is pretty much the only reason why people take it, and a dodge. But the two AOE abilities are just kitten if you don't have Condi in your build. So... Grievers, or Vipers helps it out tremendously.

It depends on what you want to do. I was a roamer/zerg thief hybrid in wvw and SB worked fine for me. It could use a slight overwork depending cluster and detonaate cluster - they're too slow at range to really be good, but other than that I was fine with how it was.Now, if I had played mostly small havoc then P/P would've been my choice.

The Box Legend guy seems to play only PvE and compares his weapon to Ranger Long Bow. He doesn't need the utility P/P brings, he only needs raw damage.

I usually take P/P. I normally go in hard on WvW. Infiltrator's Signet or Shadowstep usually replaces my Shortbow.

[BoX Legend.4027]

I never said I wanted it buffed. I want it reworked... look, it's fantastic if you can make it work for you; really more power to you if you are winning games in high elo. But, there are some clear and unmistakable flaws in the set; all of which I've already gone over. P/P is ham-fisted into being a one trick kit, similar to what they have done to Rifle. Now, the time when this becomes relevant will be in a couple months when they wash over all the new specs... I hope to see some small tweaks to rifle, and maybe even some big changes.

[Oxygen.5918]

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Ashanor.5319 said:

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Ashanor.5319 said:No offense, but no amount of training is going to make Rifle good.

@Ashanor.5319 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Ashanor.5319 said:No offense, but no amount of training is going to make Rifle good.

No amount of buffs is going to make a player good.

True, but my point still remains.

Can you explain what makes it bad?

I didn't say it was bad, I just said it wasn't good. What makes it not good is having the sustain of a Shortbow (very slightly higher technically) and less burst than P/P.

That's it? I've actually done testing with the two and I found that while p/p can maintain damage over time better than Rifle, Rifle has the much better burst. Within a few seconds I have managed to pump out at least a 30k burst with the Rifle, using a highly buffed auto that would crit 3-5k on average after I burned my initiative on 3 DJs, which would again crit 10k+ each. Meanwhile, p/p takes about 4-6 unloads before it hits that amount of damage. And I used the same build I have now for both. So I do not really understand the issue.

PP gets Headshot, one of the best skill in the entire game.

[MrEntropy.1293]

Can I get a [teef] invite? I'd love to get in on this class thing

[Zacchary.6183]

@MrEntropy.1293 said:Can I get a [teef] invite? I'd love to get in on this class thing

Alright but make sure you go to the recruitment page that was linked to ask for invites. :)

[saerni.2584]

I'd like to participate, as long as the time of day is appropriate.

I'd also be interested in dueling practice before hand using rifle so I can practice the skills. I got a new mouse so the bindings are...newish.