Swindler's Equilibrium - 12/11/2018

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

It took 6 months to fix the Withdraw bug, they broke it on June and when they fixed it, they didn't even acknowledge the bug nor their screw up. Instead, they made it look like it's a new feature for the January patch.

[Sindrener.1592]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@bluri.2653 said:AnetBenP: I checked on the infiltration rune bug. It still exists, but a fix is being worked on. It sounds like the skills guys are aware of swinder's equilibrium issue as well.

Thanks for posting this here even though it's a bit funny we didn't get the latter part here from Ben or anyone.Also, what Infiltration rune bug? Bet my arm I know... the 6th Bonus is not working, isn't? ...

Yes the 6th bonus

[Alatar.7364]

ThiefSwindler's Equilibrium: Fixed a bug that caused this trait to set its steal recharge time to a specified value instead of reducing it by that amount. Fixed a bug that caused this trait to have a longer internal cooldown than the listed value.

The war is over, let's go home.

[syszery.1592]

I know, I'm late to the party but here is the math how the flat +240 Power compare to the previous +10%. First, you get +120 Power for each attack, so if you don't attack with sword you deal more damage. How does it behave with sword now? Damage done is computed with the following equation:

Damage done = (Weapon strength) Power (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

Hence, +10% damage means:

Damage done (+10%) = (Weapon strength) Power (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) * 1.10

Since multiplication is commutative, it follows that +240 Power are equivalent to the +10% damage if you have exactly 2400 Power. If you are below 2400 Power, the new bonus is a buff to damage but if you are above (more than 5 Might in sPvP with the meta S/D core build or usually in WvW/PvE) it's a nerf.

[Alatar.7364]

@syszery.1592 said:I know, I'm late to the party but here is the math how the flat +240 Power compare to the previous +10%. First, you get +120 Power for each attack, so if you don't attack with sword you deal more damage. How does it behave with sword now? Damage done is computed with the following equation:

Damage done = (Weapon strength)

Power

(skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

Hence, +10% damage means:

Damage done (+10%) = (Weapon strength)

Power

(skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) * 1.10

Since multiplication is commutative, it follows that +240 Power are equivalent to the +10% damage if you have exactly 2400 Power. If you are below 2400 Power, the new bonus is a buff to damage but if you are above (more than 5 Might in sPvP with the meta S/D core build or usually in WvW/PvE) it's a nerf.

Indeed, I think it's stronger in sPvP this way than the old one. Or perhaps simply better in more, but not all, scenarios than the old one.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@bluri.2653 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@bluri.2653 said:AnetBenP: I checked on the infiltration rune bug. It still exists, but a fix is being worked on. It sounds like the skills guys are aware of swinder's equilibrium issue as well.

Thanks for posting this here even though it's a bit funny we didn't get the latter part here from Ben or anyone.Also, what Infiltration rune bug? Bet my arm I know... the 6th Bonus is not working, isn't? ...

Yes the 6th bonus

Hey manThanks for taking the time to post the vids,tatts look well done.what build u mess around in wvw with?

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@syszery.1592 said:I know, I'm late to the party but here is the math how the flat +240 Power compare to the previous +10%. First, you get +120 Power for each attack, so if you don't attack with sword you deal more damage. How does it behave with sword now? Damage done is computed with the following equation:

Damage done = (Weapon strength)

Power

(skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

Hence, +10% damage means:

Damage done (+10%) = (Weapon strength)

Power

(skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) * 1.10

Since multiplication is commutative, it follows that +240 Power are equivalent to the +10% damage if you have exactly 2400 Power. If you are below 2400 Power, the new bonus is a buff to damage but if you are above (more than 5 Might in sPvP with the meta S/D core build or usually in WvW/PvE) it's a nerf.

If you factor in, say +10% damage bonus from 10 stacks of Vulnerablity, which one is higher? +240 power or the old +10%?

I'm not sure how it's calculated, so I'm asking.

[syszery.1592]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@syszery.1592 said:I know, I'm late to the party but here is the math how the flat +240 Power compare to the previous +10%. First, you get +120 Power for each attack, so if you don't attack with sword you deal more damage. How does it behave with sword now? Damage done is computed with the following equation:

Damage done = (Weapon strength)

Power

(skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

Hence, +10% damage means:

Damage done (+10%) = (Weapon strength)

Power

(skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) * 1.10

Since multiplication is commutative, it follows that +240 Power are equivalent to the +10% damage if you have exactly 2400 Power. If you are below 2400 Power, the new bonus is a buff to damage but if you are above (more than 5 Might in sPvP with the meta S/D core build or usually in WvW/PvE) it's a nerf.

If you factor in, say +10% damage bonus from 10 stacks of Vulnerablity, which one is higher? +240 power or the old +10%?

I'm not sure how it's calculated, so I'm asking.

Any additional modifier like Vulnerability (or traits with +x% damage) doesn't affect the calculation above, i.e., it's still just about your strength. If your strength (with Might) is below 2400 then the +240 Power is better, at 2400 Power both are equal and otherwise (Power > 2400) +10% damage-modifier is better.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@syszery.1592 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@syszery.1592 said:I know, I'm late to the party but here is the math how the flat +240 Power compare to the previous +10%. First, you get +120 Power for each attack, so if you don't attack with sword you deal more damage. How does it behave with sword now? Damage done is computed with the following equation:

Damage done = (Weapon strength)

Power

(skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

Hence, +10% damage means:

Damage done (+10%) = (Weapon strength)

Power

(skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) * 1.10

Since multiplication is commutative, it follows that +240 Power are equivalent to the +10% damage if you have exactly 2400 Power. If you are below 2400 Power, the new bonus is a buff to damage but if you are above (more than 5 Might in sPvP with the meta S/D core build or usually in WvW/PvE) it's a nerf.

If you factor in, say +10% damage bonus from 10 stacks of Vulnerablity, which one is higher? +240 power or the old +10%?

I'm not sure how it's calculated, so I'm asking.

Any additional modifier like Vulnerability (or traits with +x% damage) doesn't affect the calculation above, i.e., it's still just about your strength. If your strength (with Might) is below 2400 then the +240 Power is better, at 2400 Power both are equal and otherwise (Power > 2400) +10% damage-modifier is better.

The reason I ask is because the +240 power gets bigger the higher the Vuln stack, for example. Compare to the +10% damage, it doesn't scale up with other modifiers. So if your power remains the same, you get the same +10% regardless of the number of Vuln stack. While with +240 power, the higher the Vuln stack, the more you get. How much more? I don't know.

[syszery.1592]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@syszery.1592 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@syszery.1592 said:I know, I'm late to the party but here is the math how the flat +240 Power compare to the previous +10%. First, you get +120 Power for each attack, so if you don't attack with sword you deal more damage. How does it behave with sword now? Damage done is computed with the following equation:

Damage done = (Weapon strength)

Power

(skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

Hence, +10% damage means:

Damage done (+10%) = (Weapon strength)

Power

(skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) * 1.10

Since multiplication is commutative, it follows that +240 Power are equivalent to the +10% damage if you have exactly 2400 Power. If you are below 2400 Power, the new bonus is a buff to damage but if you are above (more than 5 Might in sPvP with the meta S/D core build or usually in WvW/PvE) it's a nerf.

If you factor in, say +10% damage bonus from 10 stacks of Vulnerablity, which one is higher? +240 power or the old +10%?

I'm not sure how it's calculated, so I'm asking.

Any additional modifier like Vulnerability (or traits with +x% damage) doesn't affect the calculation above, i.e., it's still just about your strength. If your strength (with Might) is below 2400 then the +240 Power is better, at 2400 Power both are equal and otherwise (Power > 2400) +10% damage-modifier is better.

The reason I ask is because the +240 power gets bigger the higher the Vuln stack, for example. Compare to the +10% damage, it doesn't scale up with other modifiers. So if your power remains the same, you get the same +10% regardless of the number of Vuln stack. While with +240 power, the higher the Vuln stack, the more you get. How much more? I don't know.

TL;DR (or I hate math): The flat +240 Power and the old +10% damage are affected in the same way by any additional modifier.

%----------------------------------

Here the long answer: The equation to compute damage in GW2 is this:

Damage done = (Weapon strength) Power (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

So, if you have one modifier, say Swindler's Equilibrium (old version) it is calculated by multiplying this equation with 1.1, i.e.

(Weapon strength) Power (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) * 1.1

But because multiplication is commutative, we can rearrange the factors and see that any +X% damage modifier can be translated to: increase your (current) Power by X% (or in symbols: Power + Power * X/100)

(Weapon strength) * *(Power 1.1)* (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

From the latter equation we conclude that +240 is equivalent with +10% if and only if your Power is 2400. Note that Might works additive, i.e., you replace Power in the equation above by (Power + 30 * m), where m is the number of Might stacks you have. So, the +X% damage also increase the effect of Might but the +240 Power doesn't.

Let us now assume that your target is affected by 15 stacks of Vulnerability, i.e., +15% damage done (15 because then we can distinguish the two modifiers more easily). Without any other modifier, the 15 stacks of Vulnerability modify the damage by:

(Weapon strength) Power (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) * 1.15

and if we have +10% damage from a trait and +15 stacks of Vulnerability, we get:

(Weapon strength) Power (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) 1.1 1.15

We rearrange the factors like above and we conclude again, that it is basically enough to just say: increase Power by +10% times +15%:

(Weapon strength) * (Power 1.1 1.15) * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

In comparison a flat +240 Power increase reads as follows:

(Weapon strength) * *((Power +240) 1.15)* (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

And here lies the answer to your question: Any additional modifier (like the 15 stacks of Vulnerability here) modifies the +10% from the old version of the trait in the same way as it affects the +240 Power. This remains true if you add (actually multiply) an arbitrary amount of additional modifiers (e.g. Critical Damage).

Example? Say, you play the (former?) sPvP meta build :Without the bonus Power from Swindler's Equilibrium your base Power is 2225. A +10% damage modifier then is the same as +222.5 Power, i.e. with the old version of Swindler's Equilibrium your damage done is calculated with 2447.5 Power (if you don't have any Might up):

Damage done = (Weapon strength) 2447.5 (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

and thus it's less damage than 2225+240=2465 Power with the new version of the trait

Damage done = (Weapon strength) 2465 (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

(it's less than 1% so you will hardly see a difference by the way). If you have less than 6 stacks of Might, then +240 Power is better. If you have 6 or more stacks of Might, than +10% results in more damage.

And assuming more modifiers like our 15 stack of Vulnerability just means multiplying the bold number (Power) in the two equations above by 1.15:

Damage done (old version with 15 Vuln) = (Weapon strength) 2814.6 (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

and

Damage done (new version with 15 Vuln) = (Weapon strength) 2834.75 (skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

So, you see that both, the flat +240 Power and the +10% damage, are affected by any additional modifiers.

[syszery.1592]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@syszery.1592 said:I know, I'm late to the party but here is the math how the flat +240 Power compare to the previous +10%. First, you get +120 Power for each attack, so if you don't attack with sword you deal more damage. How does it behave with sword now? Damage done is computed with the following equation:

Damage done = (Weapon strength)

Power

(skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor)

Hence, +10% damage means:

Damage done (+10%) = (Weapon strength)

Power

(skill-specific coefficient) / (target's Armor) * 1.10

Since multiplication is commutative, it follows that +240 Power are equivalent to the +10% damage if you have exactly 2400 Power. If you are below 2400 Power, the new bonus is a buff to damage but if you are above (more than 5 Might in sPvP with the meta S/D core build or usually in WvW/PvE) it's a nerf.

Indeed, I think it's stronger in sPvP this way than the old one. Or perhaps simply better in more, but not all, scenarios than the old one.

In my opinion the old version with +10% is better in terms of damage (because you easily could stack and maintain 6+ stacks of Might). But anyway, the damage change is so minimal in sPvP that you will hardly notice it. I'm too tired to calculate it now but my gut feeling says that you, however, get more steals out of the second part of this trait (in theory at least). So, the recharge of steal should be a bit more frequently.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@syszery.1592 said:

Thanks for the detailed clarification. Assuming my calculations are correct.

Using this formula (15 stacks of Vuln), +240 is a buff up to 2760 power (or 12 stacks of Might with base 2400 Power) where at that point both +10% and +240 are practically giving the same amount of bonus.

However, if we use a 25 stacks of Vuln, +240 is a buff up to 3000 power (or 20 stacks of Might with base 2400 Power) before the old +10% takes over with higher damage output.

Am I right about this?

[syszery.1592]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@syszery.1592 said:

Thanks for the detailed clarification. Assuming my calculations are correct.

Using this formula (15 stacks of Vuln), +240 is a buff up to 2760 power (or 12 stacks of Might with base 2400 Power) where at that point both +10% and +240 are practically giving the same amount of bonus.

However, if we use a 25 stacks of Vuln, +240 is a buff up to 3000 power (or 20 stacks of Might with base 2400 Power) before the old +10% takes over with higher damage output.

Am I right about this?

I'm not sure if I understand the question correctly but let's assume you want to answer the following question:

Question: Is +10% damage or +240 Power better for me?

Then your answer is completely independent from anything that doesn't affect your Power additively. It only depends on (I hope I didn't forget anything...):

• Your gear: How much Power do you get from your Armor, Weapons, Jewelry, Runes, Infusions, Sigil (of Bloodlust) or Food (or Amulet in sPvP)
• Signets (Assassin's Signet)
• Traits (that give +Power like Dagger Training, Be Quick or be killed, Revealed Training)
• How many stacks of Might do you have
• Are you affected by buffs that give a constant bonus to Power, like Banner of Strength etc.

but it isn't affected by (de)buffs like Vulnerability or Protection and any Trait, Sigil/Rune or whatever, that says: increases Damage done by X%.

Your answer should be the following: If your base Power (base value at lvl 80 is 1000 Power) + bonus from gear + above mentioned buffs/boons (but without the +240 Power from the Trait Swindler's Equilibrium) is:

• less than 2400: Then the +240 Power is better for you,
• equal to 2400: Then both are the same,
• greater than 2400: Then the +10% damage is better.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@syszery.1592 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@syszery.1592 said:

Thanks for the detailed clarification. Assuming my calculations are correct.

Using this formula (15 stacks of Vuln), +240 is a buff up to 2760 power (or 12 stacks of Might with base 2400 Power) where at that point both +10% and +240 are practically giving the same amount of bonus.

However, if we use a 25 stacks of Vuln, +240 is a buff up to 3000 power (or 20 stacks of Might with base 2400 Power) before the old +10% takes over with higher damage output.

Am I right about this?

I'm not sure if I understand the question correctly but let's assume you want to answer the following question:

Question: Is +10% damage or +240 Power better for me?

Then your answer is completely independent from anything that doesn't affect your Power additively. It only depends on (I hope I didn't forget anything...):

• Your gear: How much Power do you get from your Armor, Weapons, Jewelry, Runes, Infusions, Sigil (of Bloodlust) or Food (or Amulet in sPvP)
• Signets (Assassin's Signet)
• Traits (that give +Power like Dagger Training, Be Quick or be killed, Revealed Training)
• How many stacks of Might do you have
• Are you affected by buffs that give a constant bonus to Power, like Banner of Strength etc.

but it isn't affected by (de)buffs like Vulnerability or Protection and any Trait, Sigil/Rune or whatever, that says:

increases Damage done by X%

.

Your answer should be the following:

If your base Power (base value at lvl 80 is 1000 Power) + bonus from gear + above mentioned buffs/boons (but without the +240 Power from the Trait Swindler's Equilibrium) is:

• less than 2400: Then the +240 Power is better for you,
• equal to 2400: Then both are the same,
• greater than 2400: Then the +10% damage is better.

My questions is; "greater than 2400: Then the +10% damage is better" is not really accurate if my calculation is correct when Vuln is applied with 2400 power.

Without Vuln, +240 is better up to 2400 power.If we apply 15 stacks of Vuln, +240 is better up to 12 stacks of Might. That is because both +10% and +240 will give the same amount of bonus damage at that point. At 13th stack of Might with 15 stacks Vuln, the +10% becomes better.

However, if we apply 25 stacks of Vuln, +240 is better up to 20 stacks of Might for the same reason above. Only at the 21st stack of Might that +10% would be better.

My point is, without the Vuln stacks, "greater than 2400: Then the +10% damage is better" is true. As you add Vuln stacks, the +240 gets better.

TL;DR0 stacks of Vuln = greater than 2400: Then the +10% damage is better.15 stacks of Vuln = greater than 2400 + 12 stacks of Might: Then the +10% damage is better.25 stacks of Vuln = greater than 2400 + 20 stacks of Might: Then the +10% damage is better.

[syszery.1592]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@syszery.1592 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@syszery.1592 said:

Thanks for the detailed clarification. Assuming my calculations are correct.

Using this formula (15 stacks of Vuln), +240 is a buff up to 2760 power (or 12 stacks of Might with base 2400 Power) where at that point both +10% and +240 are practically giving the same amount of bonus.

However, if we use a 25 stacks of Vuln, +240 is a buff up to 3000 power (or 20 stacks of Might with base 2400 Power) before the old +10% takes over with higher damage output.

Am I right about this?

I'm not sure if I understand the question correctly but let's assume you want to answer the following question:

Question: Is +10% damage or +240 Power better for me?

Then your answer is completely independent from anything that doesn't affect your Power additively. It only depends on (I hope I didn't forget anything...):

• Your gear: How much Power do you get from your Armor, Weapons, Jewelry, Runes, Infusions, Sigil (of Bloodlust) or Food (or Amulet in sPvP)
• Signets (Assassin's Signet)
• Traits (that give +Power like Dagger Training, Be Quick or be killed, Revealed Training)
• How many stacks of Might do you have
• Are you affected by buffs that give a constant bonus to Power, like Banner of Strength etc.

but it isn't affected by (de)buffs like Vulnerability or Protection and any Trait, Sigil/Rune or whatever, that says:

increases Damage done by X%

.

Your answer should be the following:

If your base Power (base value at lvl 80 is 1000 Power) + bonus from gear + above mentioned buffs/boons (but without the +240 Power from the Trait Swindler's Equilibrium) is:

• less than 2400: Then the +240 Power is better for you,
• equal to 2400: Then both are the same,
• greater than 2400: Then the +10% damage is better.

My questions is; "greater than 2400: Then the +10% damage is better" is not really accurate if my calculation is correct when Vuln is applied with 2400 power.

Without Vuln, +240 is better up to 2400 power.If we apply 15 stacks of Vuln, +240 is better up to 12 stacks of Might. That is because both +10% and +240 will give the same amount of bonus damage at that point. At 13th stack of Might with 15 stacks Vuln, the +10% becomes better.

However, if we apply 25 stacks of Vuln, +240 is better up to 20 stacks of Might for the same reason above. Only at the 21st stack of Might that +10% would be better.

My point is, without the Vuln stacks, "greater than 2400: Then the +10% damage is better" is true. As you add Vuln stacks, the +240 gets better.

TL;DR0 stacks of Vuln = greater than 2400: Then the +10% damage is better.15 stacks of Vuln = greater than 2400 + 12 stacks of Might: Then the +10% damage is better.25 stacks of Vuln = greater than 2400 + 20 stacks of Might: Then the +10% damage is better.

So, we have the same result: Above 2400 Power, +10% damage is always better :-)

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@syszery.1592 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@syszery.1592 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@syszery.1592 said:

Thanks for the detailed clarification. Assuming my calculations are correct.

Using this formula (15 stacks of Vuln), +240 is a buff up to 2760 power (or 12 stacks of Might with base 2400 Power) where at that point both +10% and +240 are practically giving the same amount of bonus.

However, if we use a 25 stacks of Vuln, +240 is a buff up to 3000 power (or 20 stacks of Might with base 2400 Power) before the old +10% takes over with higher damage output.

Am I right about this?

I'm not sure if I understand the question correctly but let's assume you want to answer the following question:

Question: Is +10% damage or +240 Power better for me?

Then your answer is completely independent from anything that doesn't affect your Power additively. It only depends on (I hope I didn't forget anything...):

• Your gear: How much Power do you get from your Armor, Weapons, Jewelry, Runes, Infusions, Sigil (of Bloodlust) or Food (or Amulet in sPvP)
• Signets (Assassin's Signet)
• Traits (that give +Power like Dagger Training, Be Quick or be killed, Revealed Training)
• How many stacks of Might do you have
• Are you affected by buffs that give a constant bonus to Power, like Banner of Strength etc.

but it isn't affected by (de)buffs like Vulnerability or Protection and any Trait, Sigil/Rune or whatever, that says:

increases Damage done by X%

.

Your answer should be the following:

If your base Power (base value at lvl 80 is 1000 Power) + bonus from gear + above mentioned buffs/boons (but without the +240 Power from the Trait Swindler's Equilibrium) is:

• less than 2400: Then the +240 Power is better for you,
• equal to 2400: Then both are the same,
• greater than 2400: Then the +10% damage is better.

My questions is; "greater than 2400: Then the +10% damage is better" is not really accurate if my calculation is correct when Vuln is applied with 2400 power.

Without Vuln, +240 is better up to 2400 power.If we apply 15 stacks of Vuln, +240 is better up to 12 stacks of Might. That is because both +10% and +240 will give the same amount of bonus damage at that point. At 13th stack of Might with 15 stacks Vuln, the +10% becomes better.

However, if we apply 25 stacks of Vuln, +240 is better up to 20 stacks of Might for the same reason above. Only at the 21st stack of Might that +10% would be better.

My point is, without the Vuln stacks, "greater than 2400: Then the +10% damage is better" is true. As you add Vuln stacks, the +240 gets better.

TL;DR0 stacks of Vuln = greater than 2400: Then the +10% damage is better.15 stacks of Vuln = greater than 2400 + 12 stacks of Might: Then the +10% damage is better.25 stacks of Vuln = greater than 2400 + 20 stacks of Might: Then the +10% damage is better.

So, we have the same result: Above 2400 Power, +10% damage is always better :-)

Actually not quite. Without Vuln, yes, but with Vuln stacks, no.

2400 power with 15 of Vuln and zero might stack, for example, +240 is better than +10%.

EDIT: Even 1 stacks of Vuln makes +240 better than +10%.