After 6+ long years...!

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Out of the three specs and all the builds u awesome magic thief players tell me what viable 1v1 build thief has than play it and see how well u do against plat players. See how well ur D/D build does against a plat spellbreaker,boonbeast,holo or almost anything not a mesmer. It's weird the top players never play thief as a 1v1 spec,why their so awesome at it? Why was it delegated to +1 and decapping with it's great 1v1 skills? Do people in higher ranks just not know how to play thief well enough to fight classes 1v1?

[pureskullz.7536]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Weird if warriors are easiest fight why arnt all the thieves in conquest rolling them over.Dude u can go on all u want,I see it from both sides. My reaper has way less mobility yet unless I'm tuned down quick outa stealth from DE in a gimmick build I farm them. I played thief for yrs than started playing rev,warrior,reaper and ranger alot in wvw and the difference is huge.

In spvp the damage is toned down so warriors are easy to fight but require a long time to fight them so as a thief your primary role in spvp is to +1 and rotate. Call it stupid but the class has always been a +1 it's stated that thieves are deadly one on one but doesn't mean we are expected to win every one on one fight we are able to cause some damage for allied players to come to help our primary role is to head in and tip the scale of the fight in our teams favor. If thief was expected to win every fight with your logic it would mean thief would be overpowered.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@pureskullz.7536 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I gave reasons in above post. A class that is glassy and relies on mobility should have a fast ttk and not just through stealth backstabs or a noob standing while u vault him 2 or three times in a row. Thief standard dps to sustain ratio is not high enough to be a good 1v1 hence why it's well known as a decapper +1 class. Even if u do win a fight it prob wasted alot of time cuz again compared to classes sustain these days it has garbage ttk speed. A class like thief should get in and kill fast before it gets hit twice and dies and needs to rely on evades to not die but right now u go at a hilo with ur D/D or a boonbeast,spellbreaker and tell me ur ttk matches ur sustain and that u do a good amount of damage in relation to how much those classes do with the sustain they have,its ridiculously balanced and judging by the threads since well the last year 2 or three people saying thief is fine,who u think idea of balance is messed? Oh right just the majority of us are wrong and u few are right lmao. Um glad u enjoy beating bad players in 1v1,must make u feel like u accomplished somthing lol

We aren't a DPS class we are a bursting class we have some of the highest burst damage in the game. Now depending on the elite spec, it can become a DPS class yeah like deadeye is in raids it has a very high benchmark for damage and Daredevil isn't to bad either core probably being the one that burst more than the other two. Also, holosmith is a direct counter to thief as it has a lot fo sustain you shouldn't be fighting a holo unless you know you can pull that fight off so as a logical thief you should be running from that fight. Just because you choose bad matchups to fight doesn't mean it's the classes fault the class as makes you think before you engage. Then if you do engage you have to be able to pull through or know when to run.

We arnt a dps class right there means u have zero clue lmao a rogue class that's not about burst? Ur right were meant for sustained fights right? Lol or maybe were just a mobility class cuz that sure matches the in game description or any description of a rogue archetype. Man I'm done discussing this with u cuz its pointless

[pureskullz.7536]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Out of the three specs and all the builds u awesome magic thief players tell me what viable 1v1 build thief has than play it and see how well u do against plat players. See how well ur D/D build does against a plat spellbreaker,boonbeast,holo or almost anything not a mesmer. It's weird the top players never play thief as a 1v1 spec,why their so awesome at it? Why was it delegated to +1 and decapping with it's great 1v1 skills? Do people in higher ranks just not know how to play thief well enough to fight classes 1v1?

It does very well depending on how you set it up. Also, there are top tier players that play thief Sindrener being one of them. It's a good +1 because we have the most mobility out of the entire game on foot and we are are able to stealth/move around the enemy team to rotate a point decap it or decide to full and move on to help our team. The reason you don't see it often is thief is very hard to play and if you mess up well you can die very easily.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Sindrener is the top thief cuz he knows how to read the maps and players,his rotations are almost always spot on,he knows when to +1 and when it's to risky and I barely ever see him 1v1 on his own because the risk which also is why hes a great thief. Sinds would prob lose alot of 1v1 against a spec like spellbreaker,boonbeast or holo even though he most likely is far more skilled than the opponent. Sinds high skill can only compensate for the disadvantage thief has in most 1v1 classes to a point and it's made worse by the powercreep that's happened. Hes stated many times in his video laughing at the noodle damage hes doing so..... it's not so much thief dps isn't enough it's the other classes have been powercrept with too much sustain and have too much burst potential for that sustain,no way a warrior,holo or soulbeast should have the same or more burst than thief given their sustain but they do. Oh and it's also and since bluri is your example sind thinks DD dead so theres that too. Only one viable competitive build and its core S/D,yeah that's fine and only cuz sb5. Again totally fine lol

[pureskullz.7536]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@pureskullz.7536 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I gave reasons in above post. A class that is glassy and relies on mobility should have a fast ttk and not just through stealth backstabs or a noob standing while u vault him 2 or three times in a row. Thief standard dps to sustain ratio is not high enough to be a good 1v1 hence why it's well known as a decapper +1 class. Even if u do win a fight it prob wasted alot of time cuz again compared to classes sustain these days it has garbage ttk speed. A class like thief should get in and kill fast before it gets hit twice and dies and needs to rely on evades to not die but right now u go at a hilo with ur D/D or a boonbeast,spellbreaker and tell me ur ttk matches ur sustain and that u do a good amount of damage in relation to how much those classes do with the sustain they have,its ridiculously balanced and judging by the threads since well the last year 2 or three people saying thief is fine,who u think idea of balance is messed? Oh right just the majority of us are wrong and u few are right lmao. Um glad u enjoy beating bad players in 1v1,must make u feel like u accomplished somthing lol

We aren't a DPS class we are a bursting class we have some of the highest burst damage in the game. Now depending on the elite spec, it can become a DPS class yeah like deadeye is in raids it has a very high benchmark for damage and Daredevil isn't to bad either core probably being the one that burst more than the other two. Also, holosmith is a direct counter to thief as it has a lot fo sustain you shouldn't be fighting a holo unless you know you can pull that fight off so as a logical thief you should be running from that fight. Just because you choose bad matchups to fight doesn't mean it's the classes fault the class as makes you think before you engage. Then if you do engage you have to be able to pull through or know when to run.

We arnt a dps class right there means u have zero clue lmao a rogue class that's not about burst? Ur right were meant for sustained fights right? Lol or maybe were just a mobility class cuz that sure matches the in game description or any description of a rogue archetype. Man I'm done discussing this with u cuz its pointless

I didn't state that we are meant for sustain fights we are meant to +1 quickly and end the fight then and there and we are burst damage if you look at oh I don't know arc dps it allows you to see damage you will see thief has the top burst damage and sustained DPS being deadeye or daredevil is possible however not as good as other classes DPS . Deadeye and daredevil having more sustained DPS would still be under burst and a rogue class isn't meant to put constant DPS pressure it's hard burst damage.

[pureskullz.7536]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Sindrener is the top thief cuz he knows how to read the maps and players,his rotations are almost always spot on,he knows when to +1 and when it's to risky and I barely ever see him 1v1 on his own because the risk which also is why hes a great thief

In your previous message, you said why do you not see top tier players playing thief so now you suddenly say there is one. Interesting and that's exactly my point welcome to accepting what thief actually is you just sided with what I said thief is.

[Zexanima.7851]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Sindrener is the top thief cuz he knows how to read the maps and players,his rotations are almost always spot on,he knows when to +1 and when it's to risky and I barely ever see him 1v1 on his own because the risk which also is why hes a great thief

Given space and time thief does just fine in a 1v1. I tear people apart in WvW and sPvP duels. It's just that in sPvP conquest it's not optimal for that, other professions do it better. As @pureskullz.7536 mentioned it's better for you to use your mobility to decap and turn fights rather than trying to be the hero.

[pureskullz.7536]

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Sindrener is the top thief cuz he knows how to read the maps and players,his rotations are almost always spot on,he knows when to +1 and when it's to risky and I barely ever see him 1v1 on his own because the risk which also is why hes a great thief

Given space and time thief does just fine in a 1v1. I tear people apart in WvW and sPvP duels. It's just that in sPvP conquest it's not optimal for that, other professions do it better. As @pureskullz.7536 mentioned it's better for you to use your mobility to decap and turn fights rather than trying to be the hero.

That it does 1v1 wise it's hard to get that time but it is possible.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Sindrener is the top thief cuz he knows how to read the maps and players,his rotations are almost always spot on,he knows when to +1 and when it's to risky and I barely ever see him 1v1 on his own because the risk which also is why hes a great thief

Given space and time thief does just fine in a 1v1. I tear people apart in WvW and sPvP duels. It's just that in sPvP conquest it's not optimal for that, other professions do it better. As @pureskullz.7536 mentioned it's better for you to use your mobility to decap and turn fights rather than trying to be the hero.

It's funny I've been doing wvw for over 5 yrs and have very few thiefs wreck anybody in 1v1 and are farmed more times than not unless thier MBS or DE rifle burst outa stealth. I see alot me included who jump people already engaged to finish peeps quick but 1v1 most thieves get eating so u must ne amazing to be 1v1 everyone lol I love when thieves try to strait up duel me even on classes I'm learning lol

[Zexanima.7851]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Sindrener is the top thief cuz he knows how to read the maps and players,his rotations are almost always spot on,he knows when to +1 and when it's to risky and I barely ever see him 1v1 on his own because the risk which also is why hes a great thief

Given space and time thief does just fine in a 1v1. I tear people apart in WvW and sPvP duels. It's just that in sPvP conquest it's not optimal for that, other professions do it better. As @pureskullz.7536 mentioned it's better for you to use your mobility to decap and turn fights rather than trying to be the hero.

It's funny I've been doing wvw for over 5 yrs and have very few thiefs wreck anybody in 1v1 and are farmed more times than not unless thier MBS or DE rifle burst outa stealth. I see alot me included who jump people already engaged to finish peeps quick but 1v1 most thieves get eating so u must ne amazing to be 1v1 everyone lol I love when thieves try to strait up duel me even on classes I'm learning lol

I got time tonight. Add me, we can have some duels. Hopefully we can both learn something. I can't guarantee I'll win, I don't know how skilled you are. I can guarantee I won't be as easy a kill as you seem to think thief is.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I've got plans with wifey but I'll text in this thread when I get a chance to over next few days for sure. Be nice to have some one to mess around in the game with as all my friends are gone

[KrHome.1920]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Out of the three specs and all the builds u awesome magic thief players tell me what viable 1v1 build thief has than play it and see how well u do against plat players. See how well ur D/D build does against a plat spellbreaker,boonbeast,holo or almost anything not a mesmer. It's weird the top players never play thief as a 1v1 spec,why their so awesome at it? Why was it delegated to +1 and decapping with it's great 1v1 skills? Do people in higher ranks just not know how to play thief well enough to fight classes 1v1?It is a good 1v1 class. It's just not a good capture class. That's it. It has to disengage often and peel the target and then it loses the point and it takes too much time to get it back before an enemy +1 arrives. Long story short: Teef is hit and run and hit and run is bad for point capping and holding.

In wvw teef is even more deadly and the average wvw player is just not good enough at the class and prefers to go broken stuff which is LB soulbeast with owl at the moment. When oneshot deadeye was fotm we saw a lot of them in wvw. And there are still more thieves than guardians, necros or elementalists roaming. Especially S/D core is ridiculously strong at roaming. The only thing that holds it back from being broken is that it has no oneshot potential and leaves its target time to recover by keep moving.

And seriously: Ever tried a shortbow + P/P full evasion cheese (energy sigil, endurance signet, endurance food etc.) daredevil in wvw? You melt roaming holos and only a few bunkers can outsustain your 1 button burst spam while being untouchable because of your permanent dash spamming.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Out of the three specs and all the builds u awesome magic thief players tell me what viable 1v1 build thief has than play it and see how well u do against plat players. See how well ur D/D build does against a plat spellbreaker,boonbeast,holo or almost anything not a mesmer. It's weird the top players never play thief as a 1v1 spec,why their so awesome at it? Why was it delegated to +1 and decapping with it's great 1v1 skills? Do people in higher ranks just not know how to play thief well enough to fight classes 1v1?It is a good 1v1 class. It's just not a good capture class. That's it. It has to disengage often and peel the target and then it loses the point and it takes too much time to get it back before an enemy +1 arrives. Long story short: Teef is hit and run and hit and run is bad for point capping and holding.

In wvw teef is even more deadly and the average wvw player is just not good enough at the class and prefers to go broken stuff which is LB soulbeast with owl at the moment. When oneshot deadeye was fotm we saw a lot of them in wvw. And there are still more thieves than guardians, necros or elementalists roaming. Especially S/D core is ridiculously strong at roaming. The only thing that holds it back from being broken is that it has no oneshot potential and leaves its target time to recover by keep moving.

Well then I guess the class just isn't for me than cuz spent alot of hrs in wvw and pve on all weapon sets and I down players 1v1 in wvw I can tell are just learning when I'm on thief but when strictly 1v1 is concerned most decent players end up downing me on most classes. I joke in and out and can last a decent time on s/d but my dps always does too little or is shaken off by the time I either get hit couple times to downstate or I disengage to fight another day. I get a ton of +1 kills tho. Classes I've spent a fraction of the time on i fare far better in 1v1 so I donno. Maybe if u guys are all doing great with it and I'm wrong and just suck at it after all that time than well doesnt really matter cuz haven't touched the class the last few months and have only felt like logging in sparsely these days so my opinion really doesnt matter. These post are just to past time in between sets at the gym lol. I'll take ur guys word on it tho but I would like to take any of ur guys offers to mess aroundfor some duels next time I do log in, way more fun with people than solo

[KrHome.1920]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Out of the three specs and all the builds u awesome magic thief players tell me what viable 1v1 build thief has than play it and see how well u do against plat players. See how well ur D/D build does against a plat spellbreaker,boonbeast,holo or almost anything not a mesmer. It's weird the top players never play thief as a 1v1 spec,why their so awesome at it? Why was it delegated to +1 and decapping with it's great 1v1 skills? Do people in higher ranks just not know how to play thief well enough to fight classes 1v1?It is a good 1v1 class. It's just not a good capture class. That's it. It has to disengage often and peel the target and then it loses the point and it takes too much time to get it back before an enemy +1 arrives. Long story short: Teef is hit and run and hit and run is bad for point capping and holding.

In wvw teef is even more deadly and the average wvw player is just not good enough at the class and prefers to go broken stuff which is LB soulbeast with owl at the moment. When oneshot deadeye was fotm we saw a lot of them in wvw. And there are still more thieves than guardians, necros or elementalists roaming. Especially S/D core is ridiculously strong at roaming. The only thing that holds it back from being broken is that it has no oneshot potential and leaves its target time to recover by keep moving.

Well then I guess the class just isn't for me than cuz spent alot of hrs in wvw and pve on all weapon sets and I down players 1v1I spent 3000 hours on thief and I dropped it because there does not exist a build that is fun to play and strong.

But that does not mean that the class has no strong builds. The classic builds everyone enjoyed for years are only average these days as the class has to adapt to meta changes of other classes. And the builds that stand the tides of time are just boring.

Example:The more forgiving version - decent overall utility and condi cleanse:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAqaVn8lC9OhFOBmOB0PhFYCbOEWCbheph4QbQLBEAyAA-jFCEQBbUJoDV+BgjAAT2fwfq/4O9BP4UAQgHAQAgDgzbezPPw5nf+5nfeff+5nf+5nf+5nfepAqSZE-w

The max burst version - up to 4100 power and boonsteal:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAqaVn8lCNOhFOBmOB0PhFYCTLBEAyAzhwSYL0LNcGaDA-jFCEQBP4UAQgHAAT2fYjKBdoyP3pPwfq/AgjAQAgDgzbezPPw5nf+5nfeff+5nf+5nf+5nfepAqSZE-w

Dumb and boring, but extremely effective. Just dance around your target and peel defensive boons, invulnerabilities and projectile blocks. Then burst!

[pureskullz.7536]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Out of the three specs and all the builds u awesome magic thief players tell me what viable 1v1 build thief has than play it and see how well u do against plat players. See how well ur D/D build does against a plat spellbreaker,boonbeast,holo or almost anything not a mesmer. It's weird the top players never play thief as a 1v1 spec,why their so awesome at it? Why was it delegated to +1 and decapping with it's great 1v1 skills? Do people in higher ranks just not know how to play thief well enough to fight classes 1v1?It is a good 1v1 class. It's just not a good capture class. That's it. It has to disengage often and peel the target and then it loses the point and it takes too much time to get it back before an enemy +1 arrives. Long story short: Teef is hit and run and hit and run is bad for point capping and holding.

In wvw teef is even more deadly and the average wvw player is just not good enough at the class and prefers to go broken stuff which is LB soulbeast with owl at the moment. When oneshot deadeye was fotm we saw a lot of them in wvw. And there are still more thieves than guardians, necros or elementalists roaming. Especially S/D core is ridiculously strong at roaming. The only thing that holds it back from being broken is that it has no oneshot potential and leaves its target time to recover by keep moving.

Well then I guess the class just isn't for me than cuz spent alot of hrs in wvw and pve on all weapon sets and I down players 1v1 in wvw I can tell are just learning when I'm on thief but when strictly 1v1 is concerned most decent players end up downing me on most classes. I joke in and out and can last a decent time on s/d but my dps always does too little or is shaken off by the time I either get hit couple times to downstate or I disengage to fight another day. I get a ton of +1 kills tho. Classes I've spent a fraction of the time on i fare far better in 1v1 so I donno. Maybe if u guys are all doing great with it and I'm wrong and just suck at it after all that time than well doesnt really matter cuz haven't touched the class the last few months and have only felt like logging in sparsely these days so my opinion really doesnt matter. These post are just to past time in between sets at the gym lol. I'll take ur guys word on it tho but I would like to take any of ur guys offers to mess aroundfor some duels next time I do log in, way more fun with people than solo

It's just practice man that's all it is takes a long time to do well. I've literally only mained thief for my entire time on gw2 so I've gotten to know the class well and know it's weakness and strengths it's nowhere near easy but rewards you, I do feel it's better suited for WvW compared to sPvP it doesn't seem to be adapted for it.

[Carnifex.3275]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Dave.6819 said:Yea.. pre-HoT were the real days for us. After that... everythin went downhill quite quick.Pre HoT I could twoshot thieves from 1200 range with two shroud autoattacks (the second one proccing CoD).

Now they just evade/dodge 6 attacks, then cast dagger storm, then proc the auto-evade trait if they run acro, then just teleport away.

Good old times...

ah yea i remember thief had hard time with necros. still tho. i'd trade anythin for thief to go back to that state. it wasn't so hard to outplay any class if u r good. now thief has to rely on cheesy dagger storm and some evades.. and that's it. after that u gotta disengage cuz u r a toast. before that.. u could still carry on fightin and outplay anyone. S/D core back in the day was alot better considering there were no elite specs we had to deal with (holo/scrapper let's say) and acrobatics/vigor wasn't nerfed back then too. now with the same S/D build we gotta outplay these elite specs that have tons of heals/blocks/stability/projectile reflects ... that's like taking gw2 beta build and goin to a fight against a recent PoF elite spec. it's like taking vanilla engie build and goin against scrapper? maybe a bad analogy but u got my point. odds are u'll be on the ground before u know it.

[Carnifex.3275]

@"Padd.1479" said:i could get behind all the "nerfs". they made sense in my eyes. the only clear nerf in terms of numbers is the auto attack nerf but promoting initiative usage to deal dmg makes sense since it's the idea of initiative. it all made thief a more skill demanding profession and i like it. i know many dont and thats fine because im happy that it is not a noobclass and noobs move on to other professions with their cheesy builds.i also agree with the positive aspects of the current thief state of purskullz.

i really do agree with u that thief is really compelling to peeps who want challenge and a hard class to master. that was the reason why i always mained thief. the problem tho... you used to get a really satisfying feeling when u outplay someone. it was truly a high risk -> high reward. but now? now it feels like Psycoprophet.8107 says. U dance around someone. Playing skillfully. Landing 5-8 hits. Evading all attacks. And all it takes for a Warrior/Holo is to land 1 skill and u r done. Challenge is okey.. but everythin has to have its limits. Now it's truly an extremely high risk - "meh" reward. Going against all odds has to be somewhat rewarding in the end. Try going against an equally skilled player in a 1v1 (any class tbh...) and see how it goes.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@"Padd.1479" said:thief is still very much viable in spvp and wvw. one has the option to play many different builds unlike herald for example who is pretty much stuck with one build.

To be honest, Shortbow is 90% of Thief's viability in PvP. As long as you have it, you can be "viable" with almost any other choices you make. Without it, you're already at such a disadvantage, you're going to have a difficult time to perform your "duties." That's because the Thief is pigeon-holed into one thing because it can't do anything else effectively (or efficiently, at least) no matter how you build for it. Of course, that's if you want to equate "decapping/+1ing" with "viability."

@"pureskullz.7536" said:players are complaining about the class being hard they knew what they signed up for the class was built for a high skill cap

Such a topic deserves a thread of it's own. But I don't even understand how a "high skill cap" applies to Thief specifically... especially in PvP. If you put the highest skilled players in the game, and gave them the choice of whatever profession they wished, how many would choose the Thief, and how many would actually be successful with it against the others?

The Thief definitely has a "high difficulty." That's part of what makes it fun. It's the challenge that makes it appealing. However, it's difficulty is WAY too high to be successful consistently against skilled opponents for anyone who doesn't have a dedicated, coordinated team.

But as for the "high skill cap," I'd have to ask what the actual "skill" is. Killing? Dueling? Escaping? Decapping?

In PvP Conquest, most of the Thief's gameplay comes from map awareness and timing. Where other professions can focus more on combat and controlling the battlefield with rotating being secondary, the Thief MUST focus on being at the right place at the right time based on how others are controlling the battlefield because it can't really do anything else as well as others. In other words, the Thief is reactionary and situational as opposed to assertive and universal. It can be a trump card in very specific circumstances, but rather ineffective in most.

I would say that a more accurate term is "high skill handicap." A Thief player has to outplay its opponents in order to remain competitive. You could say that the Thief is the "great equalizer"... it makes god-tier players mortal. They can still dominate less skilled/inexperienced players and uncoordinated teams, but the "god-Thief" player is going to have to work much harder to overcome his "god-opponents" who aren't on Thief. At the same time, you could move that player from Thief to another profession, and they become even more effective.

Personally, that's what I complain about. I'm fine with making the Thief more difficult to play than others. However, I'm against making it SO difficult that it becomes nigh-futile to try to play and win for 90% of the players/matchups. In doing so, Thief players have to gain a completely unique perspective on the game... a game that, at its core, is a combat/fighting game... and look past the actual combat to find enlightenment and purpose. I don't play a stealthy/evasive assassin class in order to avoid most fights or run to empty points. I play it in order to ambush isolated targets in such a method that creates an advantage for myself in 1v1 combat... a combat that should be quick and violent... either he dies quickly or I do, and may the best player win. I'm not looking for an easy "I win button," but a button that says, "I did my part to set up a successful ambush at the time and place of my choosing, so now, the remaining fight is going to be based on skill over mechanics, and it will be over before anyone else can reinforce either side."

It's just a poor, lazy concept to make the Thief play like a Seeker in Quidditch, but have no equivalent of the Golden Snitch.