Firebrand build using Hammer? Support/DPS (Power and Condi options with perma quickness)

[Hellios.4108]

Hello guys !As the title says. I really want to play a support/damage build for the Firebrand, and the Hammer sounds amazing for that.
The idea is to keep quickness / protection / symbol healing up all the time and keep nice damage flowing.What kind of build or stats combination fits this role? Seraph? Harrier maybe?

Maybe something like this? I mostly play open world and fractals.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAS3ensADFBjtCBWCBEEhF+BzaBkByTYBg0TRYPj+RLpA-jxhAQBwY/BL+EAAq6PA4iA4TdDCV53QVCKKAeC-e

• 100% burning duration with a lot of condi damage. You can swap to axe for more pressure.
• Nice might sharing with your crits and mantra of potence.
• Big protection/healing symbol + perma quickness.
• Nice CC.
• You can swap your trait for healing on block for more support.
• A lot of quickfire procs for more burning damage.
• With Hammer skill n2 you can blast the fields from the tomes (water and fire).

I am really excited to read your tips and see your builds!

[RabbitUp.8294]

First of all, take Toxic Maintenance Oil in your empty consumable slot. That puts you at 50% boon duration, before Sigil of Concentration.

I'm not sure about hammer in a seraph build, as you have no power stats. If you are not particularly attached to hammer, you can get perma protection with some minor changes:

Axe*/shield for more damage. You can still keep hammer on swap for the cc and blast finisher, but you can also use torch. If you time your swaps, you will be able to make full use of Radiant Fire. You also have skill 5 in Tome of Courage as another source of protection.

That's your core, and then, you have several options:Pick Pure of Voice and Hold the Line, instead of Stand your Ground.Take Honorable Staff.Or take Virtues instead of Honor.

All the above will give you perma protection. Actually, I think the Protector's Impact + Writ of Persistence combo doesn't work very well, because it gives you 5 short stacks of protection, and protection is capped at 5, so any further stacks will remove the previous, instead of stacking.

Another thing, because of how much boon duration you have, you don't need Feel my Wrath, unless your party lacks fury. You can then pick the elite mantra, which lets you drop Stand your Ground, without losing stability or retaliation.

*Instead of axe, you can take scepter for more might. With scepter/shield + staff, you can keep perma protection and quickness, along with (close to) 25 stacks of might. At that point, though, it would be better to just switch to minstrel and play full support, though.

[Hellios.4108]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:First of all, take Toxic Maintenance Oil in your empty consumable slot. That puts you at 50% boon duration, before Sigil of Concentration.

I'm not sure about hammer in a seraph build, as you have no power stats. If you are not particularly attached to hammer, you can get perma protection with some minor changes:

Axe*/shield for more damage. You can still keep hammer on swap for the cc and blast finisher, but you can also use torch. If you time your swaps, you will be able to make full use of Radiant Fire. You also have skill 5 in Tome of Courage as another source of protection.

That's your core, and then, you have several options:Pick Pure of Voice and Hold the Line, instead of Stand your Ground.Take Honorable Staff.Or take Virtues instead of Honor.

All the above will give you perma protection. Actually, I think the Protector's Impact + Writ of Persistence combo doesn't work very well, because it gives you 5 short stacks of protection, and protection is capped at 5, so any further stacks will remove the previous, instead of stacking.

Another thing, because of how much boon duration you have, you don't need Feel my Wrath, unless your party lacks fury. You can then pick the elite mantra, which lets you drop Stand your Ground, without losing stability or retaliation.

*Instead of axe, you can take scepter for more might. With scepter/shield + staff, you can keep perma protection and quickness, along with (close to) 25 stacks of might. At that point, though, it would be better to just switch to minstrel and play full support, though.

Thanks for answering man! Now I am a bit confused lol

You are right, Hammer without power is a bad idea, what about building a Harrier build then?

Like this -- http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAS5ensADFBjtCBGCBEEhl4BDrHkE2C7v0a6OtKAslqXA-jxROQBf7iAYsnAwIV/Jj6EapyPAs/gMVCCA-e

• Perma quickness / protection / might and nice healing capabilities.
• A lot of power for the symbol and hammer damage.
• Multiples sources of aegis with a big heal on block.I am not sure about the runes or the sigils. Maybe is a better idea to go with Radiance Retaliation combo? Maybe only harrier armor but zerker jewelry?

What do you think about the power option?

[Aceofsppades.6873]

You are right, Hammer without power is a bad idea, what about building a Harrier build then?

Power without precision and ferocity is pretty bad for damage.

[Hellios.4108]

@Aceofsppades.6873 said:

You are right, Hammer without power is a bad idea, what about building a Harrier build then?

Power without precision and ferocity is pretty bad for damage.I understand.Assassin or Zerker jewelry with Harrier armor then? Obviously I am not trying to min/max here. I am trying to find a good balance between damage and support with perma quickness to enjoy fractals and open world content.

[RabbitUp.8294]

Finding that balance with a power build is hard, considering you want power, precision, ferocity, concentration and maybe healing power.

You could get +% cit chance through radiance, but it won't help, since it's much easier to get precision through gear than it is ferocity. Then, there's the lack of concentration stat combos. If we had Diviner or Seeker like pvp, it would be a whole different story.

In comparion, condi builds only need condition damage, and for us, it's so easy to max burning duration, too. So, seraph support starts with the same damage as the pure dps version, gear wise. Then, you have a lot of room to add support by sacrifising some of that damage.

Currently, I think our best options are either a condi support or going full minstrel, forgetting about damage, but maximing the support and healing output. You can make a power support build, but it would be strictly worse than the condi version.

Even for hammer, I would prefer a condi build, knowing that hammer is for the utility only, while having access to a strong Tome of Justice.

[Hellios.4108]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Finding that balance with a power build is hard, considering you want power, precision, ferocity, concentration and maybe healing power.

You could get +% cit chance through radiance, but it won't help, since it's much easier to get precision through gear than it is ferocity. Then, there's the lack of concentration stat combos. If we had Diviner or Seeker like pvp, it would be a whole different story.

In comparion, condi builds only need condition damage, and for us, it's so easy to max burning duration, too. So, seraph support starts with the same damage as the pure dps version, gear wise. Then, you have a lot of room to add support by sacrifising some of that damage.

Currently, I think our best options are either a condi support or going full minstrel, forgetting about damage, but maximing the support and healing output. You can make a power support build, but it would be strictly worse than the condi version.

Even for hammer, I would prefer a condi build, knowing that hammer is for the utility only, while having access to a strong Tome of Justice.

Wise words my friend.I am going to take another look to the Seraph build that I first posted. There is a lot of really nice guardian players here so I cannot wait for more tips or variations for the Seraph build to appear.

Time to go back to the build editor!

[Ojimaru.8970]

Here's my current Seraph FB build. 80% of the damage will be from Burning, so Mace is there for boons and healing. Tome of Courage synergizes with Pure of Heart to give the party lots of heals, especially against rapid attacks like MAMA's combo swings. Legendary Lore also allows you to stack Protection with Tome of Courage.

I'm still figuring out the rotations, but I'm currently using something similar to quantifyEU's rotation.

[Ghotistyx.6942]

Its too bad you can't get Zeal, Radiance, Honor, and FB, otherwise you could have your ideal power build. You kinda need Zeal for Hammer's power damage and Radiance for both Power and Condi. You could drop the healing from Honor though you'd also drop some DPS because of Honor's symbol traits.

As far as Condi, there isn't much I'd change. You could consider taking Virtues for Permeating Wrath, which would definitely help your burning application, but both Radiance and Honor are important for your goals. FB is obviously necessary for anything related to quickness and tomes, but there's also synergy with Protector's Impact and Mantra of Solace.

[Fipmip.7219]

Honestly I think with fb if you want full quickness hammer you should go with power stats. There's just too much tradeoff to want condi stats and support as well. I haven't found anything that isn't a hard one or the other that doesn't fall flat.

If you want to take advantage of the quickness hammer then most of your stats are going to be in power and probably some mix of ferocity, precision and boon duration. That just doesn't leave much for condi, heal power and vitality so again your choice is really just gonna be either power fb or condi fb, I can't see a way around it.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Fipmip.7219 said:Honestly I think with fb if you want full quickness hammer you should go with power stats. There's just too much tradeoff to want condi stats and support as well. I haven't found anything that isn't a hard one or the other that doesn't fall flat.

If you want to take advantage of the quickness hammer then most of your stats are going to be in power and probably some mix of ferocity, precision and boon duration. That just doesn't leave much for condi, heal power and vitality so again your choice is really just gonna be either power fb or condi fb, I can't see a way around it.

Are you talking about hybrid?

I meant playing hammer with a condi build, not putting +condi damage gear along with power stuff. Like I said, the problem is that power needs 3 stats to do good damage, while condi only needs 1 and the duration you can get from other sources without the need for expertise.

Even for pure dps firebrand that is using the highest dps weapon, more than 80% of total damage comes from burning. Power is a small fraction of your damage regardless of what weapon you choose. Which means you can play condi hammer, and you still almost the same condi damage the scepter build does, and a bit lower power damage. Regardless of the weapon you choose, firebrand always carries Tome of Justice.

[Hellios.4108]

Looks like the Radiance build is starting to be popular again.

What about a power option like this one? On the table looks like nice damage and support

100% crit (fury + retaliation + 30% base) / balance between damage and support ( 500 healing + 52% boon duration) / Plenty of aegis and perma quickness

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAS5ensADFBjtCBGCBEEhlBCbfhGRzoWBgqVbCLDsduBA-jxRBQBT8iAsv9HMpSwMq8rp6Guq6PA4JAAA-e

Cheers!

[Fipmip.7219]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:Honestly I think with fb if you want full quickness hammer you should go with power stats. There's just too much tradeoff to want condi stats and support as well. I haven't found anything that isn't a hard one or the other that doesn't fall flat.

If you want to take advantage of the quickness hammer then most of your stats are going to be in power and probably some mix of ferocity, precision and boon duration. That just doesn't leave much for condi, heal power and vitality so again your choice is really just gonna be either power fb or condi fb, I can't see a way around it.

Are you talking about hybrid?

I meant playing hammer with a condi build, not putting +condi damage gear along with power stuff. Like I said, the problem is that power needs 3 stats to do good damage, while condi only needs 1 and the duration you can get from other sources without the need for expertise.

Even for pure dps firebrand that is using the highest dps weapon, more than 80% of total damage comes from burning. Power is a small fraction of your damage regardless of what weapon you choose. Which means you can play condi hammer, and you still almost the same condi damage the scepter build does, and a bit lower power damage. Regardless of the weapon you choose, firebrand always carries Tome of Justice.

I was thinking along the lines of using the hammer as the primary damage output, with tomes just being a way to grant quickness by activating them and then stowing them. Otherwise why mention hammer at all? You'd be better off just autoing with an axe between tomes to get more burn stacks. It's not the most optimal build to be sure, but if you wanna play this way, then go power stats, otherwise you'll just be using your tomes most of the time without using the hammer like you wanted to. And if you're using your tomes most of the time because you went for condi and support stats, you're better off taking different traits.

[phor.7952]

I'll tell you, I tried out a handful of different power Radiance/???/Firebrand builds, and they all ended up being worse in practice than they looked on paper.A lot of that has to do with the ICD's they put on certain traits.

For example:[Liberator's Vow] has a 12 second ICD to get the Quickness when you use Mantra of Solace. And that lines up with the charge cooldown of the mantra (as long as you don't take Weighty Terms). But [Healer's Retribution] has a 20 sec ICD. So if you're popping Solace every 12 seconds for the Quickness, then you only get the retaliation every 24 seconds.

[swift Scholar] has a 5 second ICD. So if you activate/stow in quick succession, you lose half the possible Quickness from that trait per ToJ cooldown.That's not a big deal for a Radiance build because of [Renewed Justice]. But then another problem creeps in. If you're killing things faster than 1 per 5 seconds, you could get resets on ToJ that don't proc the [swift Scholar] at all because it's still on cooldown.It feels really inconsistent in practice because of that stupid ICD

The closest I've come so far is a zerker Hammer build using Radiance(333)/Virtues(133)/Firebrand(223) and leaning on ToC for support. But even with the Quickness I think it feels strictly worse than Core Radiance Hammer.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@Fipmip.7219 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Fipmip.7219 said:Honestly I think with fb if you want full quickness hammer you should go with power stats. There's just too much tradeoff to want condi stats and support as well. I haven't found anything that isn't a hard one or the other that doesn't fall flat.

If you want to take advantage of the quickness hammer then most of your stats are going to be in power and probably some mix of ferocity, precision and boon duration. That just doesn't leave much for condi, heal power and vitality so again your choice is really just gonna be either power fb or condi fb, I can't see a way around it.

Are you talking about hybrid?

I meant playing hammer with a condi build, not putting +condi damage gear along with power stuff. Like I said, the problem is that power needs 3 stats to do good damage, while condi only needs 1 and the duration you can get from other sources without the need for expertise.

Even for pure dps firebrand that is using the highest dps weapon, more than 80% of total damage comes from burning. Power is a small fraction of your damage regardless of what weapon you choose. Which means you can play condi hammer, and you still almost the same condi damage the scepter build does, and a bit lower power damage. Regardless of the weapon you choose, firebrand always carries Tome of Justice.

I was thinking along the lines of using the hammer as the primary damage output, with tomes just being a way to grant quickness by activating them and then stowing them. Otherwise why mention hammer at all? You'd be better off just autoing with an axe between tomes to get more burn stacks. It's not the most optimal build to be sure, but if you wanna play this way, then go power stats, otherwise you'll just be using your tomes most of the time without using the hammer like you wanted to. And if you're using your tomes most of the time because you went for condi and support stats, you're better off taking different traits.

There's more to hammer than 1111 spam. Including it in a build like this would be for the utility of perma protection, a low-cd blast finisher and good cc. You have other sources of damage, a second weapon set and ToJ. Using your tomes just to get quickness is a complete waste.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@phor.7952 said:I'll tell you, I tried out a handful of different power Radiance/???/Firebrand builds, and they all ended up being worse in practice than they looked on paper.A lot of that has to do with the ICD's they put on certain traits.

For example:[Liberator's Vow] has a 12 second ICD to get the Quickness when you use Mantra of Solace. And that lines up with the charge cooldown of the mantra (as long as you don't take Weighty Terms). But [Healer's Retribution] has a 20 sec ICD. So if you're popping Solace every 12 seconds for the Quickness, then you only get the retaliation every 24 seconds.

[swift Scholar] has a 5 second ICD. So if you activate/stow in quick succession, you lose half the possible Quickness from that trait per ToJ cooldown.That's not a big deal for a Radiance build because of [Renewed Justice]. But then another problem creeps in. If you're killing things faster than 1 per 5 seconds, you could get resets on ToJ that don't proc the [swift Scholar] at all because it's still on cooldown.It feels really inconsistent in practice because of that stupid ICD

The closest I've come so far is a zerker Hammer build using Radiance(333)/Virtues(133)/Firebrand(223) and leaning on ToC for support. But even with the Quickness I think it feels strictly worse than Core Radiance Hammer.

I don't see how that's problem. You should account for these cooldowns when you working on the build even on paper. For example, when I'm calculating perma-retaliation, I'm treating Healer's Retribution as a 24s cooldown. For traits with inconsistent uptime, like Swift Scholar, I take the worst case scenarion, and that is that I can only proc it once every 30s, because that's the cd on ToJ, and it's the one tome I can reliably spam.

[phor.7952]

@RabbitUp.8294 said:You should account for these cooldowns when you working on the build even on paper.Thanks Dad.Super constructive post that brought a lot to the discussion.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@phor.7952 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:You should account for these cooldowns when you working on the build even on paper.Thanks Dad.Super constructive post that brought a lot to the discussion.

That's what your post was about, so why the attitude? If you have nothing of value to say, don't post in the first place.And my post was more than what you quoted. It can help someone else not fall in the same traps during buildmaking.

[phor.7952]

My post was about the pitfalls of ICD's on traits (which a lot of people forget about when thinking about builds on paper) in the specific builds being discussed in this thread. The fact that you believe that has no value, yet your correction/brag post on the exact same topic does....It's like you're turning into Ted Mosby before our eyes. Just tone it down a bit, will ya?

Maybe I should have just tagged Hellios and Fipmip to make it clear who I was responding to.

[Fipmip.7219]

I know full well there are other sources of damage. However, like I said before, I was just talking about the hammer being focus of damage. If that's something you want, then the best way to do that is to use power stats in combination with getting as much quickness as you can. to reiterate, it's not the optimal way to play, but that's how you would do it if you still wanted to. If you trait for tomes only to stow them and put them on long cooldowns just so you can use the hammer utilities probably doesn't pay off most of the time. The best way to use hammer would be to trait for power and quickness.

However like phor said the ICDs on these traits makes it harder to get that 100% uptime. I'd have to actually test the build. Depending on the outcome it honestly seems like a fools goal to try and make hammer useful outside of filling tome downtime with utility skills.

[Hellios.4108]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAS5ensADFBjtCBGCBEEhlBCbfhGRzoWBgqVbCLDsduBA-jxRBQBT8iAsv9HMpSwMq8rp6Guq6PA4JAAA-e

Maybe something like that works if you want nice support capabilities and still be capable of doing damage with nice defensive stats