Please save this class that has been nerfed to the ground in pve contents

[Sinclair.3407]

5 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Well for one, grenade barrage is split 3 ways in the code base and on top of that people complain about it in every mode that isn't PVE (including grenade scrapper lol). It has 0.6 per grenade in PVE = 3.6 coefficient if you hit with all them, 0.5 in WvW while being 0.3 in PVP. If they merged WvW + PvE coefficient it would be better for their codebase and would only be a really minor nerf of 15% to a skill that only accounts for roughly 5% of the total damage but a great part of burst. That accounts for less than 300 DPS. Having a skill split 3 ways is incredibly bad if they intend to launch on Steam, it adds complexity for no reason at all.

The Unscathed Contender gimmick on Virtues power guardians could be cut from 20 to 10-15% and it would drop it to ~37-38K as well, with no other changes, if deemed excessive. Touching other things that are not really the problem creates new issues.

That's what I mean by adjusting outliers , since sustained DPS isn't anything amazing for holo in a real scenario which is why it was buffed last year (~33K to nearly 38K grinded but more like 37K-ish).

This also applies to chronos, pre-patch I suggested only removing the 10% modifier on Danger Time or removing it because it benefits only people stacking them but doesn't really benefit solo chronos that much. Removing Danger Time + cutting Time Warp would have been enough.

The average power DPS class before Feb 2020 patch was ~15K autoattacking in PVE (i.e. just damage modifiers) plus or minus 1K (~7%), with staff daredevil about 22K (nerfing this is pointless since no cooldowns only initiative plus it's a 35K DPS class pre May 11 patch). Power soulbeast was already ~19K before the Furious Strength boosts (+3%) in this last patch and the one in Feb 2020 that made the Twice as Vicious trait go up (+5%) as well.

As far as this topic:

Putting even more mods onto it (soulbeast) would make it an autoattack class like daredevil. If anyone is serious about buffing power soulbeast specifically, the suggestion should make the buff be about using skills (i.e. Frost Trap as I mentioned earlier). Arenanet has stated in the past they can only split things numerically (numbers such as cooldown, duration, radius, and damage coefficient) so as long as it is a damage modifier I am truly afraid of what is going to happen to competitive since it will be either so low that it is useless, have a 300 cooldown in competitive, or be broken beyond belief. Given the 37K hybrid benchmark and 35K power benchmark, I think it's safe to say a OWP revert and maybe Frost trap cooldown reduction so you can use it more often is a safer balancing method that also encourages people to do more than autoattack.

If you played long enough you would know sometimes they put these huge changes in when small changes would be much better. Classes ping pong between overpowered and really weak and it becomes incredibly frustrating. It's literally the reason why I made some legendaries years ago.

You suggestion on holo barrage sounds reasonable to me. Burst goes down while the sustain stays almost intact. Virtue guardian has a very limited uses so I have no comments on how impactful the changes will be, because most of the time radiance is still taken and works well especially in fractals.

I do agree with what you mentioned in the last paragraph. I still remember the release of PoF expansion when firebrand was firstly introduced. Ever since then, it was OP for a while, and thus being nerfed hard in a series of patches while still busted for a very long time afterwards.. Sometimes I just dont get the point of making something completely useless/unplayerable or broken, and start to doubt whether these devs actually tried on all these classes on their own.

[Sinclair.3407]

42 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It's literally the reason why I made some legendaries years ago.
 

Yes, with the incoming armory making legendries is finally as rewarding as it is originally supposed to be. It makes playing all classes so much more of ease than before, without tedious unequipping and reequipping the gears and upgrades... I am happy with most of the general updates they bring to the patch. I even think this year they spent so much of time and resource on those quality-of-life updates that they didn't have a right mindset to come up with a proper class balance. As far as I could remember, the negative feedback to this patch is overwhelming compared to some previous major patches.

[Xeon.5768]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

As far as this topic:

Putting even more mods onto it (soulbeast) would make it an autoattack class like daredevil. If anyone is serious about buffing power soulbeast specifically, the suggestion should make the buff be about using skills (i.e. Frost Trap as I mentioned earlier). Arenanet has stated in the past they can only split things numerically (numbers such as cooldown, duration, radius, and damage coefficient) so as long as it is a damage modifier I am truly afraid of what is going to happen to competitive since it will be either so low that it is useless, have a 300 cooldown in competitive, or be broken beyond belief. Given the 37K hybrid benchmark and 35K power benchmark, I think it's safe to say a OWP revert and maybe Frost trap cooldown reduction so you can use it more often is a safer balancing method that also encourages people to do more than autoattack.

Assuming the same combo is used as before, the net effect of reverting OWP alone is ~800 DPS if you use the new benchmark and ~1K-1.5K if you use old logs. Dropping Frost Trap from 30s to 25s base cooldown which is basically negligible for competitive would be easily ~500 DPS so you wouldn't need a skill split.

If you played long enough you would know sometimes they put these huge changes in when small changes would be much better. Classes ping pong between overpowered and really weak and it becomes incredibly frustrating. It's literally the reason why I made some legendaries years ago.
 

Reverting the OWP will bring back some dps increase, but not enough up to the point where soulbeast can be competitive to many other dps classes, as mentioned in earlier post. If apart from this change, they could add some dmg to weapon skills (as some other suggested) or simply increase the Sic Em from 25% to 30%, it will definitely bring its pwr variant's sustained dps up to 36.5k ish, an acceptable level (although not meta).

 

Your suggestion on CD change of frost trap from 30 sec to 25 sec does not help soulbeast's position in fractal at all, because you won't have a second use of it within a single phase either it is 25 or 30 sec. If this is negligible to competitive (as you mentioned), how would it help soulbeast to go closer to classes like weaver or DH? Again, I might be wrong but I am just constantly under the impression that you think this class only deserves alacRen's position, but not DPS postion in fractals...

 

Last paragraph is true. Personally I have full set of leg armors (light+medium+heavy) + Ad inf/vision/aurora/coal/conflux/transdc + 8 or 9 leg weapons. I am almost ready for the incoming leg armory except a few leg weapons and leg runes. I hope they could bring some exciting dps elite specializations, if these current pwr builds keep being nerf-ed.

 

About the new elite specs, I dislike the braindead playstyle (e.g., pressing skills off CD, skip or low interaction with the mechanics, no/low penalties for mistakes in rotation), but prefer the playstyle of the previous fractal meta classes such as weaver/slb/DH (requirements of knowing precasting and when to time the burst window). The nature of weaver being squashy, soulbeast being entangled for skill use, DH being low on health or virtue aegis being hard to maintain is all that actually attracts me, because it is challenging in such a way that you have to know the fight really well to dps well and to avoid being killed.  One example of virtue DH on arts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m3BQ264T5c) is also a demonstration of tryharding to maintain aegis to be good. Meanwhile, there are some class-specific traits which require the players to maintain HP over a certain threshould to gain extra dps modifier. All of these are the facts I like to encourage the constant learning and improving. If the meta/top 1 dps class happened to be braindead in competitive content in the future, I would surely be disappointed.

 

Edits:

If they really wanna push a trend that every class should slowly bleed out the boss with a flat dps curve, I would be really sad tbh. One good example would be CM100 dark AI, it has no phase and now with the new change on torment, classes like scourge* and mirage are exceedingly strong, even making the bursty condition firebrand sweat in pugs**, considering it can still precast ashes to 5-6 stacks to have higher opener. Power classes are simply far less effective than conditions in CM100 dark phase. If the prepatch CM98 and 99 are the examples of pwr only being effective, then CM100 is the opposite extreme example of condi only being effective. The patch changes the exposed state buff, which somehow addresses the CM98 and 99, but making condi even more busted in CM100 that no one would even consider playing pwr for this encounter (while ironically condi class cFB can still be used and effective in cm 98 and 99 preptach)!

So what is the problem here? It is the decision to make it zero phase that classes with flat and steady dps curve significantly outshine the classes with dps curve that is tied to burst window.

 

Is this fun? Maybe it is just me, but yeah thats just no fun to me.

 

* bear in mind condi scourge even has lower benchmark than condi FB

** in high end groups that can push extremely fast, cfb is still potentially better

Edited May 21, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Infusion.7149]

10 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

Reverting the OWP will bring back some dps increase, but not enough up to the point where soulbeast can be competitive to many other dps classes, as mentioned in earlier post. If apart from this change, they could add some dmg to weapon skills (as some other suggested) or simply increase the Sic Em from 25% to 30%, it will definitely bring the sustained dps up to 36.5k ish, an acceptable level (although not meta).

 

Your suggestion on CD change of frost trap from 30 sec to 25 sec does not help soulbeast's position in fractal at all, because you won't have a second use of it within a single phase either it is 25 or 30 sec. If this is negligible to competitive (as you mentioned), how would it help soulbeast to go closer to classes like weaver or DH? Again, I might be wrong but I am just constantly under the impression that you think this class only deserves alacRen's position, but not DPS postion in fractals...

 

Last paragraph is true. Personally I have full set of leg armors (light+medium+heavy) + Ad inf/vision/aurora/coal/conflux/transdc + 8 or 9 leg weapons. I am almost ready for the incoming leg armory except a few leg weapons and leg runes. I hope they could bring some exciting dps elite specializations, if these current pwr builds keep being nerf-ed.

 

About the new elite specs, I dislike the braindead playstyle (e.g., pressing skills off CD, skip or low interaction with the mechanics, no/low penalties for mistakes in rotation), but prefer the playstyle of the previous fractal meta classes such as weaver/slb/DH (requirements of knowing precasting and when to time the burst window). The nature of weaver being squashy, soulbeast being entangled for skill use, DH being low on health or virtue aegis being hard to maintain is all that actually attracts me, because it is challenging in such a way that you have to know the fight really well to dps well and to avoid being killed.  One example of virtue DH on arts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m3BQ264T5c) is also a demonstration of tryharding to maintain aegis to be good. Meanwhile, there are some class-specific traits which require the players to maintain HP over a certain threshould to gain extra dps modifier. All of these are all the facts I like to encourage the constant learning and improving. If the meta/top 1 dps class happened to be braindead in competitive content in the future, I would surely be disappointed.

Again , how is increasing modifiers, which is what they nerfed in the first place
1. something they would even consider right after nerfing it
2. contrary to their goal of reducing burst.

3. something positive to the game since it resplits the skill between modes

OWP revert would be nearly 1K DPS already, with no other changes. It doesn't increase burst relative to what it is now, so that is inline with what they wrote in the patchnote.
 

Quote

The ranger is a potent damage dealer. We've seen that Soulbeast has extreme burst damage potential, and unfortunately in this case, this has helped create some very homogenous group compositions. In this patch, we're weakening "Sic 'Em!" when used by a Soulbeast by lowering the damage bonus to 25%, matching the current balancing for this skill in PvP and WvW. We're also increasing the cooldown of One Wolf Pack. However, while we do want to slightly lower the extreme burst damage moments from Soulbeast, we don't want to significantly lower its overall damage per second on longer encounters. To this end, we're also increasing the damage bonus granted by Furious Strength, providing an overall increase to sustained damage per second.

Power soulbeast already still has more burst than the classes you mentioned, plus more sustained DPS than normal DH without virtues. Plus , which weapon skill would even be worth changing on power soulbeast, certainly not the burst on rapid fire or barrage due to multi-hit and range? A frost trap change on the other hand would increase sustained DPS without affecting competitive (WVW/PVP) if it is unsplit. It seems you are not understanding what competitive means, it means vs other players in combat not racing them on a DPS meter most players don't even use unless they raid. Frost trap is the highest iDPS  on power soulbeast skill as I listed in the prior post. What is even meta to you? 40K? lol

Why would you even mention fractals if 5s doesn't matter then , especially considering even up to this patch it literally has been meta? Skirmishing isn't typically used, you seem focused on sustained DPS but keep suggesting more burst which is what was supposed to be nerfed in the first place. From snowcrows' calculator , with 200AR + Mist attunement 4 , Power soulbeast has ~+5% damage from modifiers with marksmanship over skirmishing (i.e. 36-37K). On top of that you seem fixated on the burst window, but already power soulbeast has the highest burst even after nerf.

Other than the retaliation to resolution change that affected some raid bosses, why would they even consider doing anything at all for fractals when power soulbeast has been meta so long and isn't unusable? The reason the exposed window was changed to affect condi damage was because they wanted condi to be viable in fractals (of course they forgot about CFB burn, which was preemptively fixed but not enough probably).

[Xeon.5768]

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Again , how is increasing modifiers, which is what they nerfed in the first place
1. something they would even consider right after nerfing it
2. contrary to their goal of reducing burst.

3. something positive to the game since it resplits the skill between modes

OWP revert would be nearly 1K DPS already, with no other changes. It doesn't increase burst relative to what it is now, so that is inline with what they wrote in the patchnote.
 

Every time looking at this patch note I was laughing... Let's take a look at what they wrote in July 7 2020 patch.

"Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be. This is on a broad level rather than being tied to particular weapons or utility skills. As such, we're tapping the power and condition damage bonuses they gain while merged with deadly and ferocious pets for some reductions. In competitive game modes, druids have been seen significantly less use for their supportive abilities, so we're tuning those up to encourage bringing the affected traits and glyphs."

 

Compared to the May 11 2021 patch,

"The ranger is a potent damage dealer. We've seen that Soulbeast has extreme burst damage potential, and unfortunately in this case, this has helped create some very homogenous group compositions. In this patch, we're weakening "Sic 'Em!" when used by a Soulbeast by lowering the damage bonus to 25%"

 

".This is on a broad level rather than being tied to particular weapons or utility skills." "In this patch, we're weakening "Sic 'Em!" when used by a Soulbeast by lowering the damage bonus to 25%" ????????? Clearly if they nerf-ed the Sic Em in the first place last July, it will become a trashy dmg dealer if thats what they want... Do you know one of the famous exp raider "Mela on Twitch" even made a video about this? Sorry I just cant help laughing since you brought it up. Clearly they didn't even have a consistent centralized idea on what they are doing.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

Every time looking at this patch note I was laughing... Let's take a look at what they wrote in July 7 2020 patch.

"Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be. This is on a broad level rather than being tied to particular weapons or utility skills. As such, we're tapping the power and condition damage bonuses they gain while merged with deadly and ferocious pets for some reductions. In competitive game modes, druids have been seen significantly less use for their supportive abilities, so we're tuning those up to encourage bringing the affected traits and glyphs."

 

Compared to the May 11 2021 patch,

"The ranger is a potent damage dealer. We've seen that Soulbeast has extreme burst damage potential, and unfortunately in this case, this has helped create some very homogenous group compositions. In this patch, we're weakening "Sic 'Em!" when used by a Soulbeast by lowering the damage bonus to 25%"

 

".This is on a broad level rather than being tied to particular weapons or utility skills." "In this patch, we're weakening "Sic 'Em!" when used by a Soulbeast by lowering the damage bonus to 25%" ????????? Clearly if they nerf-ed the Sic Em in the first place last July, it will become a trashy dmg dealer if thats why they want... Do you know one of the famous exp raider "Mela on Twitch" even made a video about this? Sorry I just cant help laughing since you brought it up. Clearly they didn't even have a consistent centralized idea on what they are doing.

On a broad level = merged bonuses. You know the ones that just require you to be alive and not do anything?

[Xeon.5768]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

On a broad level = merged bonuses. You know the ones that just require you to be alive and not do anything?

"Rather than being tied to particular weapon or utility skills" ???????? That is so hilarious. What type of skill does Sic Em belong to?  Do you think nerfing soulbeast by -50 pwr would have more impact than nerfing Sic Em by 15%? 

[Infusion.7149]

12 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

"Rather than being tied to particular weapon or utility skills" ???????? That is so hilarious. What type of skill does Sic Em belong to?  Do you think nerfing soulbeast by -50 pwr would have more impact than nerfing Sic Em by 15%? 

It was a followup patch to Feb 2020 splits. If you look at skirmishing traitline in February 2020:
Hunter's Tactics had a damage mod added: "this trait now increases damage when attacking from the side or behind by 10% in addition to its previous effects"
along with Twice as Vicious which "increased the damage and condition damage bonuses granted by this trait from 5% to 10% in PvE only" (except is a conditional on disables/CC). This type of change caused the problem in the first place.

Unless you want them to make the DPS comparison chart over the years to look like someone's heart rate going up and down then suggesting something like that is not a good change. It's proven to be true time and again regardless of class , see Vicious Expression which was so bad they nerfed it in 24 hours.

They have a vested interest in lowering DPS because longer time to clear = less gold inflation. That's why all CC consumables were disabled in fractals this patch.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Xeon.5768]

48 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Power soulbeast already still has more burst than the classes you mentioned, plus more sustained DPS than normal DH without virtues. Plus , which weapon skill would even be worth changing on power soulbeast, certainly not the burst on rapid fire or barrage due to multi-hit and range? A frost trap change on the other hand would increase sustained DPS without affecting competitive (WVW/PVP) if it is unsplit. It seems you are not understanding what competitive means, it means vs other players in combat not racing them on a DPS meter most players don't even use unless they raid. Frost trap is the highest iDPS  on power soulbeast skill as I listed in the prior post. What is even meta to you? 40K? lol

Why would you even mention fractals if 5s doesn't matter then , especially considering even up to this patch it literally has been meta? Skirmishing isn't typically used, you seem focused on sustained DPS but keep suggesting more burst which is what was supposed to be nerfed in the first place. From snowcrows' calculator , with 200AR + Mist attunement 4 , Power soulbeast has ~+5% damage from modifiers with marksmanship over skirmishing (i.e. 36-37K). On top of that you seem fixated on the burst window, but already power soulbeast has the highest burst even after nerf.

Other than the retaliation to resolution change that affected some raid bosses, why would they even consider doing anything at all for fractals when power soulbeast has been meta so long and isn't unusable? The reason the exposed window was changed to affect condi damage was because they wanted condi to be viable in fractals (of course they forgot about CFB burn, which was preemptively fixed but not enough probably).

Yes, in the 6-8 sec window, Power soulbeast did more than weaver and DH pre-patch, but not post-patch, as long as weaver and DH do precast, as is the case in most good/high end groups. Power soulbeast cannot outdps either weaver/DH in its sustained dmg, and there are many pre-patch videos which you can check for any CM bosses, which I don't think is necessary to list here. And remember its susained dps cannot outdps weaver/DH even pre-patch, let alone post-patch. Also I am sure I understand the meaning of competitive. I did not expect 40k, just 36.5 ish on its pwr variant, as aforementioned.

 

Regarding your second paragraph, I mean if they nerf Sic Em, and if they wanna buff furious strength, then better buff it more so that it can reach 36.5k ish. In this case, it is still a nerf, but it is acceptable. I think this claim is very clear in my first post....

 

In response to "On top of that you seem fixated on the burst window, but already power soulbeast has the highest burst even after nerf."

It doesn't have the highest burst anymore after the nerf... It cannot beat even reaper in some cases, let alone the precasting weaver/DH, non-precasting holosmith.

 

Regarding the last paragraph, I already said what they did to exposed state does help a bit in cm98 and 99, but on the other hand it is also true that this makes condi more busted and pwr more useless in cm100. They need to have more comprehensive analysis before doing something like that, or it will lead to the results similar to what you mentioned earlier, making something exceedingly strong or completely useless, which is obviously the case for pwr builds in cm100

Edited May 21, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Xeon.5768]

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

They have a vested interest in lowering DPS because longer time to clear = less gold inflation. That's why all CC consumables were disabled in fractals this patch.

Actually not all. Yes, they disabled more, but still not all. They will eventually nerf them all though. 🙂

Edited May 21, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Xeon.5768]

13 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It was a followup patch to Feb 2020 splits. If you look at skirmishing traitline in February 2020:
Hunter's Tactics had a damage mod added: "this trait now increases damage when attacking from the side or behind by 10% in addition to its previous effects"
along with Twice as Vicious which "increased the damage and condition damage bonuses granted by this trait from 5% to 10% in PvE only" (except is a conditional on disables/CC). This type of change caused the problem in the first place.

Unless you want them to make the DPS comparison chart over the years to look like someone's heart rate going up and down then suggesting something like that is not a good change. It's proven to be true time and again regardless of class , see Vicious Expression which was so bad they nerfed it in 24 hours.

I understand these things you mentioned, but just the statement of their patch note is very fun to read sometimes. I am not the only person saying that, and in fact you can find many other players' feedback to the "May 11th patch" thread. Many statements in this patch note simply cant stand up to scrutiny.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Xeon.5768]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Why would you even mention fractals if 5s doesn't matter then , especially considering even up to this patch it literally has been meta? Skirmishing isn't typically used, you seem focused on sustained DPS but keep suggesting more burst which is what was supposed to be nerfed in the first place. From snowcrows' calculator , with 200AR + Mist attunement 4 , Power soulbeast has ~+5% damage from modifiers with marksmanship over skirmishing (i.e. 36-37K). On top of that you seem fixated on the burst window, but already power soulbeast has the highest burst even after nerf.

It is true marksmanship has +5% dmg modifier than skirmishing, even a bit more when you cannot flank during the burst window. However, you need to consider LoTP by which you lose a 10% dmg modifier (which is quite significant). This is also one of the factors soulbeast being very supportive and generous to the party when it comes to sacrifice personal dmg while buffing group dmg. As a return, the group dps increase is massive. So yea from this aspect it deserves more love. Oh am I being biased again on the dear soulbeast? Whatever  🙂 

 

1st edit:

In response to "especially considering even up to this patch it literally has been meta?"

I have mentioned this again and again in my previous patch but you just seem not to read at all. Below is my response originally to the "Follow-up to may 11th patch" thread and also stolen to a previous post under this thread.

 

"Looking into deeper, pwr slb is a meta class in fractals, similar to pwr Ren,  is almost always used in every speed clear benchmarked by SC/DT members inside fractals.  This is not only because slb has great personal burst potential with sic em and one wolf pack, but what’s really busted is the stance sharing through Leader of the Pack. Many of the speed kills are simply impossible if you decide to disable or reduce the effects of stance sharing (e.g. increasing the follow-up attack interval from 0.25 sec to 1 sec for allies), while still keeping sic em and one wolf pack for slb player as is. That being said, as Lizardguard suggested, it would make more sense to me to have a LIGHT touch on soulbeast's PERSONAL burst potential, while applying the nerf to stance sharing which slb grants to allies. This is the most effective way to prevent speed clear like 30 sec mama or 17 sec siax"

 

It is meta not because of its personal burst, but because of the unique and strong party buff it can bring. Otherwise, pwr holosmith (which has a raw non-precasting 110k opener on skorv prepatch, for example) should also be meta. In addition, pwr soulbeast underperforms pwr weaver/DH/holosmith so sustained DPS wise you should not take slb over weaver/DH/holosmith, if not considering the buff it can bring. 

 

If being meta is a mistake, then Anet should nerf the reasons that make it meta, which is obviously the capability of stance sharing, instead of touching its personal dps, which is again already underperforming other listed classes prepatch.

 

I hope above is clear. I don't want to explain further. If you want to argue on slb's DPS position vs DH/weaver in fractals prepatch, there are tons of videos/logs that tell everything I summarized above

 

2nd edit:

For completeness, I am still attaching some record logs here from Discretize to support some of the opinions above.

https://dps.report/0yPy-20210203-162202_skor

https://dps.report/XF28-20200929-184832_arriv

https://dps.report/q7ef-20210302-234653_arkk

Edited May 21, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Infusion.7149]

Seems you have more of an issue with precast traps and DH doing more on a meter. DH traps were nerfed in terms of one form of precast when build templates came out: people were precasting then swapping build. There's nothing stopping Arenanet from doing it again considering their crusade on CC consumables. Sunqua Peak showed they're willing to strip precast boons.

If you look at the logs you posted, 10-15% of the DH damage comes from OWP , 23% of renegade DPS in first one. Second log , OWP makes up ~4% of DH DPS and ~5% of renegade. Third log, 11-12% of DH DPS is OWP and ~15% of renegade. So it comes down to how it is credited much like how arcdps wasn't able to calculate conditions initially and still cant do healing. What that means is if there's one soulbeast in subgroup, even if it does less damage on the meter is doing more damage group-wise. If OWP is nerfed to 1s ICD it could potentially be devastating to the build honestly, not sure why you'd want to do that instead of reverting the cooldown : the most you'd ever want is 0.5 second interval. It also means you should be glad they hadn't nerfed it even harder.

Let's say they did add ICD to shared OWP, that doesn't change the fact that if you add the credited DPS from other players that it is more than comparable to other DPS classes. Even with more than one soulbeast , if the usage is staggered albeit that might be less effective it still has the same kind of effect.

This PvE patch obviously was meant for raids, since A. that's where people usually discriminate on DPS heavily B. that's the only place people stack chronos that they mentioned. They're more concerned about general performance than what only affects fractals  otherwise initial patchnotes would have not needed the followup preemptive nerf to CFB. Anyone would have been able to tell them exposed change for condi was not well thought out if burning gets the same bonus as poison.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Xeon.5768]

8 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Seems you have more of an issue with precast traps and DH doing more on a meter. DH traps were nerfed in terms of one form of precast when build templates came out: people were precasting then swapping build. There's nothing stopping Arenanet from doing it again considering their crusade on CC consumables. Sunqua Peak showed they're willing to strip precast boons.

If you look at the logs you posted, 10-15% of the DH damage comes from OWP , 23% of renegade DPS in first one. Second log , OWP makes up ~4% of DH DPS and ~5% of renegade. Third log, 11-12% of DH DPS is OWP and ~15% of renegade. So it comes down to how it is credited much like how arcdps wasn't able to calculate conditions initially and still cant do healing. What that means is if there's one soulbeast in subgroup, even if it does less damage on the meter is doing more damage group-wise. If OWP is nerfed to 1s ICD it could potentially be devastating to the build honestly, not sure why you'd want to do that instead of reverting the cooldown : the most you'd ever want is 0.5 second interval. It also means you should be glad they hadn't nerfed it even harder.

Let's say they did add ICD to shared OWP, that doesn't change the fact that if you add the credited DPS from other players that it is more than comparable to other DPS classes. Even with more than one soulbeast , if the usage is staggered albeit that might be less effective it still has the same kind of effect.

This PvE patch obviously was meant for raids, since A. that's where people usually discriminate on DPS heavily B. that's the only place people stack chronos that they mentioned. They're more concerned about general performance than what only affects fractals  otherwise initial patchnotes would have not needed the followup preemptive nerf to CFB. Anyone would have been able to tell them exposed change for condi was not well thought out if burning gets the same bonus as poison.

First, I know how the traps work w.r.t. swapping build templates, but it does not prevent DH from top DPS in many pug condtions, even without trap precasting. I already updated my initial post with a pug video from Ryan. If you need more on other bosses, there are many you can get online. Sunqua showed they're willing to strip precasted boons, but do boons precasting really matter that much compared to stance of slb or ashes of cfb precasting? It takes a few second to max the boons right after entering combat, and there is almost no dps loss for this especially on condi classes...

 

Ppl prestacking boons in old CMs because first it is pwr-based classes which need to do a lot of skills precasting before entering combat. Delay in boons application when entering combat will lead to a big dps loss. Secondly, prestacking boons makes some speed clears run smoother, without worrying too much about boons, such as dropping fire field to blast might during the fight. 

 

To put it straight, if they really want to see some noticeable difference, have all the CM bosses equipped with boonstrip capability. They applied that feature to CM100 boss, which is the worse target of making the boonstrip feature actually in effect...

 

 

 

About your 2nd paragraph, this is exactly what I mean by this class is meta because of this stance sharing feature, not rly because of its personal dps. Otherwise, holosmith can also be taken for this speed clear. Just imagine replacing the soulbeast by holosmith, what number would these DH do? Therefore, it will be a wise decision for Anet to nerf the stance sharing, to prevent soulbeast from being meta due to that aspect, if killing soulbeast is their goal. 

 

Are you saying if I will be happier if arcdps can count all the OWP DPS done by DHs and Ren to the slb only, similar to ashes of the just counted to the cfb only who is applying it in the first place?  Well I would say yes or no. My point is, they are totally wrong about the nerf they did to soulbeast, because it does not address any of these speed clear issues, while making this class's personal dps completely trash. I want to emphasize on this because ppl are still looking at arcdps meter in both pug raids and daily CM fractals. They must do something to improve its overall dps performance from the current state, so that this class will not be k1cked due to its low dps performance. Some other ppl already mentioned under this thread they felt a noticeable difference in strikes or raids.

Lastly, I did not say I want OWP dmg or strike nerf more than reverting its CD. In fact, I do not want this skill to be nerfed at all. I simply think they should completely disable stance sharing, and the problems will be completely solved regarding this speed clear. Soulbeast will still meet its personal dps check for not being k1cked, as long as they rebuffing its sustained dps to 36.5 ish, as aforementioned.

 

 

 

Regarding your 3rd paraprah,,

first in response to "Let's say they did add ICD to shared OWP, that doesn't change the fact that if you add the credited DPS from other players that it is more than comparable to other DPS classes"

This is true. However, unfortunately the meter does not count the credited OWP DPS from other players towards the slb. Therefore, it will still be k1cked due to its low personal dps displayed.

 

In response to "Even with more than one soulbeast , if the usage is staggered albeit that might be less effective it still has the same kind of effect."

Having more soulbeast will only lengthen the duration of stance sharing, not intensity of its dmg... This is how it worked even pre patch. By nerf-ing the strike interval for allies to 1 sec ICD, for example, the number of follow-up hits done by other players will be reduced significantly, leading to an overall dmg loss. As a results, OWP stance sharing may be on par with frost spirit, which is still good but not OP obviously. On the other hand, the OWP for soulbeast itself should still stay at 0.25 sec, making soulbeast have the enough personal dps check.

 

 

 

Regarding the last paragraph, I disagree with this. First, they apply a content wide change, exposed state change, which we all know is mainly affecting factals. Secondly, they want to tape the class burst potential in general as you even mentioned earlier, which certainly affects more in fractals due to short phase. In raids, the phase is more longer than fractals, so nerfing the burst will definitely see much less impact in raids than fractals. Similarly, nerfing sustained dps will see more impacts in raids than fractals. 

Regarding the cFB, again I simply think they came up with a messy initial patch note of which many of the statements just cant stand up for scrutiny. I wouldn't be suprised if they forgot this outlier in the first place.

Speaking of this, if they really balance off on the raid performance, they completely failed, because look at these torment changes they did, look at the mirage dps on condi oriented fights, look at pwr soulbeast sustained dps, look at the condi DE???? I cannot remember a historic patch that has been so messy like this. Please remind me if you can. 

 

It seems to me a guy who never played this game and never tested the benchmark before coming up with these changes. Sure, if they made some mistakes in the initial note (which I still think should not be that messy), then why are the follow-up notes still make no real impacts? e.g. with the torment skills nerf or ashes nerf, condi renegade still hits 41k, and cfb still hits 40k, while condi slb is doing 35k, lmao.

 

 

 

Lastly, it seems you are constanly speaking for them, but what they do is just more disappointing, the deeper we go into the discussion. I am constantly under the impression that you basically think whatever they do is logical, according to your speaking for them about the historic patches. I think it is heathier to have some critical thinking and report what is really the issues to them if possible, instead of saying yes I am content with whatever you give to me.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

I think the salvation will come from Expansion #3 with the new specialization. Until then no chances, we are where we are.

[Infusion.7149]

12 hours ago, Xeon.5768 said:

First, I know how the traps work w.r.t. swapping build templates, but it does not prevent DH from top DPS in many pug condtions, even without trap precasting. I already updated my initial post with a pug video from Ryan. If you need more on other bosses, there are many you can get online. Sunqua showed they're willing to strip precasted boons, but do boons precasting really matter that much compared to stance of slb or ashes of cfb precasting? It takes a few second to max the boons right after entering combat, and there is almost no dps loss for this especially on condi classes...

 

Ppl prestacking boons in old CMs because first it is pwr-based classes which need to do a lot of skills precasting before entering combat. Delay in boons application when entering combat will lead to a big dps loss. Secondly, prestacking boons makes some speed clears run smoother, without worrying too much about boons, such as dropping fire field to blast might during the fight. 

 

To put it straight, if they really want to see some noticeable difference, have all the CM bosses equipped with boonstrip capability. They applied that feature to CM100 boss, which is the worse target of making the boonstrip feature actually in effect...

 

 

 

About your 2nd paragraph, this is exactly what I mean by this class is meta because of this stance sharing feature, not rly because of its personal dps. Otherwise, holosmith can also be taken for this speed clear. Just imagine replacing the soulbeast by holosmith, what number would these DH do? Therefore, it will be a wise decision for Anet to nerf the stance sharing, to prevent soulbeast from being meta due to that aspect, if killing soulbeast is their goal. 

 

Are you saying if I will be happier if arcdps can count all the OWP DPS done by DHs and Ren to the slb only, similar to ashes of the just counted to the cfb only who is applying it in the first place?  Well I would say yes or no. My point is, they are totally wrong about the nerf they did to soulbeast, because it does not address any of these speed clear issues, while making this class's personal dps completely trash. I want to emphasize on this because ppl are still looking at arcdps meter in both pug raids and daily CM fractals. They must do something to improve its overall dps performance from the current state, so that this class will not be k1cked due to its low dps performance. Some other ppl already mentioned under this thread they felt a noticeable difference in strikes or raids.

Lastly, I did not say I want OWP dmg or strike nerf more than reverting its CD. In fact, I do not want this skill to be nerfed at all. I simply think they should completely disable stance sharing, and the problems will be completely solved regarding this speed clear. Soulbeast will still meet its personal dps check for not being k1cked, as long as they rebuffing its sustained dps to 36.5 ish, as aforementioned.

 

 

 

Regarding your 3rd paraprah,,

first in response to "Let's say they did add ICD to shared OWP, that doesn't change the fact that if you add the credited DPS from other players that it is more than comparable to other DPS classes"

This is true. However, unfortunately the meter does not count the credited OWP DPS from other players towards the slb. Therefore, it will still be k1cked due to its low personal dps displayed.

 

In response to "Even with more than one soulbeast , if the usage is staggered albeit that might be less effective it still has the same kind of effect."

Having more soulbeast will only lengthen the duration of stance sharing, not intensity of its dmg... This is how it worked even pre patch. By nerf-ing the strike interval for allies to 1 sec ICD, for example, the number of follow-up hits done by other players will be reduced significantly, leading to an overall dmg loss. As a results, OWP stance sharing may be on par with frost spirit, which is still good but not OP obviously. On the other hand, the OWP for soulbeast itself should still stay at 0.25 sec, making soulbeast have the enough personal dps check.

 

 

 

Regarding the last paragraph, I disagree with this. First, they apply a content wide change, exposed state change, which we all know is mainly affecting factals. Secondly, they want to tape the class burst potential in general as you even mentioned earlier, which certainly affects more in fractals due to short phase. In raids, the phase is more longer than fractals, so nerfing the burst will definitely see much less impact in raids than fractals. Similarly, nerfing sustained dps will see more impacts in raids than fractals. 

Regarding the cFB, again I simply think they came up with a messy initial patch note of which many of the statements just cant stand up for scrutiny. I wouldn't be suprised if they forgot this outlier in the first place.

Speaking of this, if they really balance off on the raid performance, they completely failed, because look at these torment changes they did, look at the mirage dps on condi oriented fights, look at pwr soulbeast sustained dps, look at the condi DE???? I cannot remember a historic patch that has been so messy like this. Please remind me if you can. 

 

It seems to me a guy who never played this game and never tested the benchmark before coming up with these changes. Sure, if they made some mistakes in the initial note (which I still think should not be that messy), then why are the follow-up notes still make no real impacts? e.g. with the torment skills nerf or ashes nerf, condi renegade still hits 41k, and cfb still hits 40k, while condi slb is doing 35k, lmao.

 

 

 

Lastly, it seems you are constanly speaking for them, but what they do is just more disappointing, the deeper we go into the discussion. I am constantly under the impression that you basically think whatever they do is logical, according to your speaking for them about the historic patches. I think it is heathier to have some critical thinking and report what is really the issues to them if possible, instead of saying yes I am content with whatever you give to me.

You really think that they need to test every benchmark in every scenario before releasing a patch? That's funny because the QA involved would be insane. QA would check for bugs. In addition, do you really think if some of these things weren't overperforming at their initial revision that people would even shift builds? That's literally the only reason firebrand+renegade displaced chrono+druid.

Also I did provide feedback on most major patches. I was one of the people that brought their attention to CFB which was preemptively nerfed (though not enough). Your entire argument boils down to not being kicked (no idea why you can't even spell that properly every time, it seems you are doing it on purpose) because people don't know how to read DPS properly since OWP isn't credited properly. Why don't you complain to deltaconnected, that's not an Arenanet issue and is low on the priority list. Of all things that they can invest in, that is one of the lowest ROI things possible: catering to every little complaint on the forum when their internal analytics show differently. Arcdps fixed condi in the past, so go complain to them and write 5 page articles for him to read. Considering they are on reddit all the time, they probably love that.

How is this any different from ashes stealing? Arcdps number should not be used in any argument regarding balance without actually understanding its limitations.

Balance was even more messy when new elite specs were added, and unlike PVE which is stagnant (because it is scripted) it had even worse effects in WVW and PVP.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Xeon.5768]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You really think that they need to test every benchmark in every scenario before releasing a patch? That's funny because the QA involved would be insane. QA would check for bugs. In addition, do you really think if some of these things weren't overperforming at their initial revision that people would even shift builds? That's literally the only reason firebrand+renegade displaced chrono+druid.

Also I did provide feedback on most major patches. I was one of the people that brought their attention to CFB which was preemptively nerfed (though not enough). Your entire argument boils down to not being kicked (no idea why you can't even spell that properly every time, it seems you are doing it on purpose) because people don't know how to read DPS properly since OWP isn't credited properly. Why don't you complain to deltaconnected, that's not an Arenanet issue and is low on the priority list. Of all things that they can invest in, that is one of the lowest ROI things possible: catering to every little complaint on the forum when their internal analytics show differently. Arcdps fixed condi in the past, so go complain to them and write 5 page articles for him to read. Considering they are on reddit all the time, they probably love that.

How is this any different from ashes stealing? Arcdps number should not be used in any argument regarding balance without actually understanding its limitations.

Balance was even more messy when new elite specs were added, and unlike PVE which is stagnant (because it is scripted) it had even worse effects in WVW and PVP.

Well certainly I understand it is impossible for them to do the thorough test on every single class in every scenario, but clearly what they did is not enough as can be seen by the results, i.e., making multiple classes completely far beyond the reasonable thresholds, while others being completely nerfed to the ground (even including the BT or stm you mentioned very early..). If there is just one or two class being completely useless or busted after the patch, I dont think there would be such amount of complaint under various threads on the forums. Clearly, the broken effects are everywhere that no one can even speak for them, except a tiny few such as you.

 

It is true that the Anet should not assume the direct responsibilities of any computational algorithms done by the third-party meter. However, it allows the program to be installed and executed, and we all know the fact that there is a large player base using the meter, when it comes to fractals and raids. That being said, as long as ppl are still looking at the meter and use it as a tool to screen the players, the way how DPS is counted by this meter would still matter. To put is simpler, low dps = k1ck, is what is being used in many pugs, unless you are buying raids/fractals, or play with your friends or guildies who can hard carry you. Anet may not participate into the development of this meter, but allowing them to exist in this game would indirectly make it assume responsibilities for this. In conclusion, if they allow it to exist, then they better do something for balance with the consideration of player's experience with the meter*. Otherwise, just ban it and everyone would search for a new solution for grouping and screening.

 

In response to "How is this any different from ashes stealing? Arcdps number should not be used in any argument regarding balance without actually understanding its limitations."

This is true. But bear in mind most of the general players do not know how to look at the log properly. Most of the time, they will have a square sub window displaying everyone's personal DPS, and decide who to k1ck in the party or squad. These are the facts you should know if you really have pug experience, unless you always play with static or guidies.

 

In response to "Balance was even more messy when new elite specs were added, and unlike PVE which is stagnant (because it is scripted) it had even worse effects in WVW and PVP."

Idk about others. For me, it makes more sense if classes become unbalanced when the new specializations just arrive, because it is indeed hard and takes time to adopt the completely new features into the existing long-lasting environment. That being said, I would not be surprised if the new elite specs completely ruin the existing ones (as is the case in the release of PoF expansion), and would be happier to see as they are converging to an appropriate point in the near future.

However, the fact that these 18 elite specializations have literally been there for years, and they can still screw them up to such an unacceptable level just makes it disappointing and also fun to watch. You may argue that oh all these problems will be fixed in the future so just calm down. But what is the problem of complaining about it exactly at the time of it being messy? what is wrong with sharing opinions with other players on the forums? I am not interested in talking (or complaining) to any developers of arcdps because they may not even be playing this game

 

Edit:

* I heard they did use the benchmarks from SC as one of the factors before coming up with the balance patch. I am not sure and cannot verify it. 

There is one fact that the at the 1st nerf of CC consumables, exactly the CC consumables listed on DT website is nerfed, but others were still working like wood planks or pirate peg legs (which were only recently nerf-ed by the may 11th patch). Presumably they were checking on it. Again, this is just one observation and I am not entirely sure.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Infusion.7149]

14 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

Well certainly I understand it is impossible for them to do the thorough test on every single class in every scenario, but clearly what they did is not enough as can be seen by the results, i.e., making multiple classes completely far beyond the reasonable thresholds, while others being completely nerfed to the ground (even including the BT or stm you mentioned very early..). If there is just one or two class being completely useless or busted after the patch, I dont think there would be such amount of complaint under various threads on the forums. Clearly, the broken effects are everywhere that no one can even speak for them, except a tiny few such as you.

 

It is true that the Anet should not assume the direct responsibilities of any computational algorithms done by the third-party meter. However, it allows the program to be installed and executed, and we all know the fact that there is a large player base using the meter, when it comes to fractals and raids. That being said, as long as ppl are still looking at the meter and use it as a tool to screen the players, the way how DPS is counted by this meter would still matter. To put is simpler, low dps = k1ck, is what is being used in many pugs, unless you are buying raids/fractals, or play with your friends or guildies who can hard carry you. Anet may not participate into the development of this meter, but allowing them to exist in this game would indirectly make it assume responsibilities for this. In conclusion, if they allow it to exist, then they better do something for balance with the consideration of player's experience with the meter*. Otherwise, just ban it and everyone would search for a new solution for grouping and screening.

 

In response to "How is this any different from ashes stealing? Arcdps number should not be used in any argument regarding balance without actually understanding its limitations."

This is true. But bear in mind most of the general players do not know how to look at the log properly. Most of the time, they will have a square sub window displaying everyone's personal DPS, and decide who to k1ck in the party or squad. These are the facts you should know if you really have pug experience, unless you always play with static or guidies.

 

In response to "Balance was even more messy when new elite specs were added, and unlike PVE which is stagnant (because it is scripted) it had even worse effects in WVW and PVP."

Idk about others. For me, it makes more sense if classes become unbalanced when the new specializations just arrive, because it is indeed hard and takes time to adopt the completely new features into the existing long-lasting environment. That being said, I would not be surprised if the new elite specs completely ruin the existing ones (as is the case in the release of PoF expansion), and would be happier to see as they are converging to an appropriate point in the near future.

However, the fact that these 18 elite specializations have literally been there for years, and they can still screw them up to such an unacceptable level just makes it disappointing and also fun to watch. You may argue that oh all these problems will be fixed in the future so just calm down. But what is the problem of complaining about it exactly at the time of it being messy? what is wrong with sharing opinions with other players on the forums? I am not interested in talking (or complaining) to any developers of arcdps because they may not even be playing this game

 

Edit:

* I heard they did use the benchmarks from SC as one of the factors before coming up with the balance patch. I am not sure and cannot verify it. 

There is one fact that the at the 1st nerf of CC consumables, exactly the CC consumables listed on DT website is nerfed, but others are still working like wood planks or pirate peg legs. Presumably they were checking on it. Again, this is just one observation and I am not entirely sure.

They could ban everyone who uses arcdps tomorrow if they wanted. Then would you be happy?

The terms were even merged under NCSoft so it is likely the jurisdiction is under NCSoft. See https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/legal-documentation-updates-effective-may-5-2021/

Even deltaconnected said so on their site. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Nowhere does it say it is allowed.

They should not be balancing based off third party tools and biased opinions like yours, only their own metrics.

For example in PVP where arcdps is disabled, people were complaining that DH was too weak. The devs stated it had a high win rate even if people say it was weak.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Xeon.5768]

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

They could ban everyone who uses arcdps tomorrow if they wanted. Then would you be happy?

Even deltaconnected said so on their site. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

They should not be balancing based off third party tools and biased opinions like yours, only their own metrics.

For example in PVP where arcdps is disabled, people were complaining that DH was too weak. The devs stated it had a high win rate even if people say it was weak.

Although the discussion seems misdirected, but if you like,

I will not be happy or sad, because thats a player loss to them if they ban the players using this tool, instead of banning the tool itself.

 

I did not call them balance the classes completely based on the meter, but certainly allowing it to exist and players abusing it would impact the player experience with this game, when it comes to fractals/raids. So what are their own metrics that leads to this patch with a lot of nonsense? Glad to hear if you can educate a bit.

 

"The devs stated it had a high win rate even if people say it was weak." High win rate = DH class is stronger than others? Without considering the difference in skills of players and difference in player base among all the professions (which may statistically lead to high win rate just because more players playing leading to more discoveries of strong builds or combos)?  This is exactly what I mentioned nerfing or buffing based on a high-level metric without looking at the details. This once again shows the work is not enough implemented to come up with the appropriate balance plans.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Infusion.7149]

10 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

Although the discussion seems misdirected, but if you like,

I will not be happy or sad, because thats a player loss to them if they ban the players using this tool, instead of banning the tool itself.

 

I did not call them balance the classes completely based on the meter, but certainly allowing it to exist and players abusing it would impact the player experience with this game, when it comes to fractals/raids. So what are their own metrics that leads to this patch with a lot of nonsense? Glad to hear if you can educate a bit.

 

"The devs stated it had a high win rate even if people say it was weak." High win rate = DH class is stronger than others? Without considering the difference in skills of players and difference in player base among all the professions (which may statistically lead to high win rate just because more players playing leading to more discoveries of strong builds or combos)?  This is exactly what I mentioned nerfing or buffing based on a high-level metric without looking at the details. This once again shows the work is not enough implemented to come up with the appropriate balance plans.

People can play without kicking others due to so-called underperforming DPS (35K power GS Soulbeast vs 33-37K for average power DPS), it is not something under their control. People could kick you because your character is a Charr or if they don't like the outfit you wear. Balancing based on that would be just as absurd.

This patch was clearly meant to push condis, probably to help the economy since power is dominant in openworld and non CM fractals. If you look at torment scaling it is 0.09 scaling now vs stationary targets , burning 0.155, 0.06 for bleeding.  Of course there are modifiers that are class specific like on guardian for burning and for bleeding, torment, and poison. The game initially didn't even have condition stacking, only duration stacking if you played long enough you would know that.

Your best recourse is to pester the deltaconnected dev , hopefully with a greatly lower amount of vitriol.

Also peg leg is disabled, seems you are more a raid player than a fractal player.

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Xeon.5768]

8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Also peg leg is disabled, seems you are more a raid player than a fractal player.

Please read it more carefully. I specially mentioned it is the 1st "nerf" and pirate peg leg was not nerf-ed in the 1st nerf, but only in the 2nd one, which is the one on may 11th 2021.

I play all CM raids and fractal contents, as a hardcore dps player. Tryharding in static while still pugging for dailies occasionally. I consider myself knowing the difference in class specific DPS position between an organized group and unorganized group, before making all the previous posts. I speak for low DPS leading to k1ck action in pugs, based on the real experience.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[anduriell.6280]

3 minutes ago, Xeon.5768 said:

"The devs stated it had a high win rate even if people say it was weak." High win rate = DH class is stronger than others? Without considering the difference in skills of players and difference in player base among all the professions (which may statistically lead to high win rate just because more players playing leading to more discoveries of strong builds or combos)?  This is exactly what I mentioned nerfing or buffing based on a high-level metric without looking at the details. This once again shows the work is not enough implemented to come up the appropriate balance plans.

i always asked myself what do they exactly meant with high win rate. Because if what they mean is to look if you tag the enemy with a rapid fire while +1ing with a meta class  taking advantage of the weapon range,  their definition of strong class is confusing at best.

 

The devs keep nerfing ranger because it seems whoever designed and understood the class is in the company no more and nobody has had dedicated enough time to play with the ranger long enough to understand what the class does.

Which clearly reflects in the lacks of much needed reworks and the total mess that the new specialitations are and the new upcoming spec probably will be.

 

For example they say Soulbeast is a burst dps, but everubody who plays with the class knows all that burst depends exclusively on two skills :  Sicem and OneWolfPack.

Obviously the devs did not understood that and they thought nerfing both skills and giving an small buff to another situational trait would have balanced all out.

 

They could have engaged with different ranger mains and most probably would have warned tha the planned changes would not work as they expect.

 

[Xeon.5768]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

People can play without kicking others due to so-called underperforming DPS (35K power GS Soulbeast vs 33-37K for average power DPS), it is not something under their control. People could kick you because your character is a Charr or if they don't like the outfit you wear. Balancing based on that would be just as absurd.

 

First, for your comment about DPS being acceptable, do you actually know the soulbeast's position in raid bosses? It was not doing at a good level on many bosses, even with the previous 38k benchmark , only except a tiny few where you can absolutely abuse Sic Em. And these tiny few does not even include deimos which is known to have the unnatural signet effect, because in this case cFB and DH are still better sutained dps wise. In pugs, soulbeast cannot outperform chrono or pwr holosmith on deimos when the phase is longer. Second, its DPS is very dependent on the positioning of your entire squad, because boss moving with tank during soulbeast root-in-place-while-casting skills such as barrage or whirling defense (where most of the dmg comes from) is a big rip to the soulbeast. Now with the significant nerf, its position in raid is like bottom dps pick for almost all the bosses lmao, including the ones soulbeast was being meta on, where we all know it was strongly dependent on Sic Em OWP synergy with the exposed buff, to catch up with other classes which outperform it in any sustained phase.

 

Is it playable or not? Yes it is but the chances are higher that it will be k1cked for its low dps. This is similar to the 33k holosmith (as you mentioned) being k1cked in fractals before the 2020 patch.

 

 

In response  to "People could kick you because your character is a Charr or if they don't like the outfit you wear. Balancing based on that would be just as absurd."

Most of the groups still rely on arcDPS to decide who to stay or leave. I am not sure what is your point of bringing up these two hilarious examples that are only used by a tiny number of ppl.....

Edited May 22, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Xeon.5768]

29 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

People can play without kicking others due to so-called underperforming DPS (35K power GS Soulbeast vs 33-37K for average power DPS), it is not something under their control. People could kick you because your character is a Charr or if they don't like the outfit you wear. Balancing based on that would be just as absurd.

 

If you keep saying 35k golem benchmark is translated to an acceptable performance level in real fights, it simply reflects you do not really know this class's internal rot mechanics w.r.t the specific bosses, and its constraints on the group synergy.  It is as fun as someone saying virtue DH has 40k dps and should be nerf-ed to the ground, without looking at how many bosses can allow you to maintain aegis...

[Xeon.5768]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

i always asked myself what do they exactly meant with high win rate. Because if what they mean is to look if you tag the enemy with a rapid fire while +1ing with a meta class  taking advantage of the weapon range,  their definition of strong class is confusing at best.

 

The devs keep nerfing ranger because it seems whoever designed and understood the class is in the company no more and nobody has had dedicated enough time to play with the ranger long enough to understand what the class does.

Which clearly reflects in the lacks of much needed reworks and the total mess that the new specialitations are and the new upcoming spec probably will be.

 

For example they say Soulbeast is a burst dps, but everubody who plays with the class knows all that burst depends exclusively on two skills :  Sicem and OneWolfPack.

Obviously the devs did not understood that and they thought nerfing both skills and giving an small buff to another situational trait would have balanced all out.

 

They could have engaged with different ranger mains and most probably would have warned tha the planned changes would not work as they expect.

 

Comparing what Anet states in the past note with the new note is always fun:

 

July 7th 2020 patch:

"Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be. This is on a broad level rather than being tied to particular weapons or utility skills. As such, we're tapping the power and condition damage bonuses they gain while merged with deadly and ferocious pets for some reductions."

 

 

May 11th 2021 patch:

"The ranger is a potent damage dealer. We’ve seen that Soulbeast has extreme burst damage potential, and unfortunately in this case, this has helped create some very homogenous group compositions. In this patch, we’re weakening “Sic ‘Em!” when used by a Soulbeast by lowering the damage bonus to 25%, matching the current balancing for this skill in PvP and WvW. "

 

not tied to utility skill?  and Sic Em? 

 

Just with this simple fact, they do not have a consistent conclusion and assessment regarding this class.

 

 

A quality content is attached:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmY0VOU8cK4

which makes this patch is not only disappointing, but more fun to watch.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Xeon.5768