Basically thinking we are a bunch of idiots??

[Sobx.1758]

19 minutes ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

Im confused with this way of thinking. Of course people want to be over powered in PvE. It’s flipping PvE, you’re talking like you’re rank 1 PvP. Calm down. Yes 68k DPS is pretty extraordinary, but it’s PVE, people should value time and efficiency over “D” measuring contests on Arc DPS. 

...what EXACTLY are you confused about here? About balance patches existing at all? Or about someone pointing out stupid overreactions of people wanting to grab and hold broken builds? If anything, you should be confused about "the way of thinking" OP presents.

[AikijinX.6258]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...what EXACTLY are you confused about here? About balance patches existing at all? Or about someone pointing out stupid overreactions of people wanting to grab and hold broken builds? If anything, you should be confused about "the way of thinking" OP presents.

Yes they are overreactions, but to react how he does over PvE content, just doesn’t make sense to me. To be honest in PvE any class should be able to be strong or have the capability to be, so every class would be desired and not just cherry picking over the LFG system if you’re not a particular class or build. It’s on Anet to make harder content to compete with the strong builds out there.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

Yes they are overreactions, but to react how he does over PvE content, just doesn’t make sense to me. To be honest in PvE any class should be able to be strong or have the capability to be, so every class would be desired and not just cherry picking over the LFG system if you’re not a particular class or build. It’s on Anet to make harder content to compete with the strong builds out there.

You're basically saying "change the whole game around few builds instead of changing few builds around everything else". That doesn't make much sense -and surely it makes less sense than what you're apparently confused about.

 

Overally you really should focus more on the blatantly false and uninformed claims OP made in this thread, where he pretends the build is dead when it's far from it.

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

Im confused with this way of thinking. Of course people want to be over powered in PvE. It’s flipping PvE, you’re talking like you’re rank 1 PvP. Calm down. Yes 68k DPS is pretty extraordinary, but it’s PVE, people should value time and efficiency over “D” measuring contests on Arc DPS. 

 

It's very easy. 

 

The power creep of the game is deleting PvE content. Which means effectively it's losing the purpose to do it. 

 

If your dropping a boss so fast 3/4s of its mechanics become ignorable which is a very current problem there's a issue. 

 

It needs addressing and no not only by thief. But it's a new extreme which definitely doesn't need to happen prior the next wave of elites introducing more power creep. 

 

Look at WoW look at FFXIV it's very normal to balance PvE. Ofcourse it needs to be balanced lmfao, people want to be FoTM in PvP also. Just because someone has no care for PvP difficulty doesn't mean that should change. 

 

For a pve player it's very relevant for balance to exist. And broken builds not to trivalise content. 

 

Imho every class needs nerfing in PvE. The DPS cap should be 30k not the 40k it's current sat it. 

 

But 60k+ is even worse and needs fixing. The fact that these changes are ONLY in PvE is fine. This isnt damaging PvP players.

 

Power creep shouldn't exist in a game with no verticle progression. It's bad design that classes are jumping leaps and bounds without armour getting stronger. 

 

This is because every wave of elites get stronger. Rendering previous builds useless because of. 

 

The games design by default should mean power creep shouldn't exist. 

 

I ain't talking like a anything player. If people had your mentality then people wouldn't be FoTM rerolling.. and rebalancing everything to go upwards is bad. Because something will always perform even higher. This game doesn't need to be over 100k by the end of 2022. 

 

What it needs is a dial backwards. There's a reason the gamea popularity has gone down instead of up over expansion launches. 

 

This game was built on the idea we wouldn't move vertically but horizontally. And that just isn't a reality with the current decisions.

 

The fact people are saying these are dead builds is a joke, these builds are still over 40k DPS. I don't understand why people are so worried. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Lucinellia.9247]

I am seeing a lot of comments about 68K DPS on fights and 45k DPS bench following the May the 11th patch (unsurprisingly, that isn't the case with the recent balance hotfix!). It is worth emphasising that both of these are outliers and do not reflect upon cDE in raid fights.

The 68k DPS was achieved on Dark Ai with a composition entirely designed to support cDE DPS. It is also very dependent on Mistlock Singularity prestacking of venoms. Sadly, this remains in place and venom prestacking via the Mistlock Singularity should be removed. That said, the 68k DPS under the effects of Fractal Potions, Singularity venom prestacking and with a composition designed to buff to cDE is not indicative of performance in other types of content such as raids.

The 45k DPS benchmarks are also unrealistic. Though the boon loadout used is the "realistic" version suggest by SC, there are a number of things present in these benchmarks that mean they cannot be compared to other benchmarks used by other professions. 

Firstly, the benchmark involves prestacking. This involves placing Thousand Needles and applying venoms, then using the Adrenal Mushroom Special Forces Training Area ability reset and beginning the fight. This allows the player to cast Thousand Needles again earlier than a standard cooldown would and reapply venoms after only a few hits. This is not possible in raids and is therefore an unrealistic measurement of cDE performance. There are also other issues such as using full Shadow Strike with port (which is higher DPS) under the presumption of full boons despite the rotation moving the Thief out of the stack. Finally, there are also issues with RNG grinding of Stolen Skills, which is not indicative of standard performance. If people want to chase their high scores on a golem, that is fine. It is not a good source for balance discussions though.

As such, numbers like 68k on Dark Ai and 45k on golem need to be taken with a massive pinch of salt. However, even when doing so, it is definitely arguable that non-prestacked with allies benchmark of 41k to 42k DPS is unhealthy (let's put aside the previous performance of power chrono and current performance of a number of professions). That means, nerfs are expected and nerfs, when they are well considered, are fine! Which brings us to the May 25th balance hotfix and one nerf in particular that reduces cDE to a worse place than it was prior to the 11th of May patch. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Lucinellia.9247

[Lucinellia.9247]

So, even considering cDE alone under non-prestacking, nerfs were needed. The changes to Torment output on Shadow Strike and the Bleeding on both Repeater and Malicious Sneak attack are absolutely fine. Aiming for a DPS of 38k with allies, perhaps even less, would be totally fine on the basis of tweaking our Bleeding and Torment output and duration. I'd personally have liked to have seen something to stop venom stacking with Mistlock Singularities but, hey, that didn't happen.

So far so good with the nerfs!

However, the change to 3 initiative cost for Repeater in PvE is absolutely horrible and this should not have been introduced.

The change to Repeater costing three initiative alone forces cDE into the setup of One in the Chamber, Malicious Restoration, Mercy, 2 x venoms and Shadow Meld. Without these abilities, cDE becomes quickly initiative starved (this is now gained from Mercy and the extra Deadeye's Mark) and runs out of stealth sources (which now come from Deadeye's Mark, Malicious Restoration, Mercy, Shadow Meld and the Stolen Skills granted from such via One in the Chamber). This serves to not only decrease DPS but also forces a reduction in utility alongside a more difficult rotation. The forced loadout also means there is no easy access to CC and no additional utility can be taken. We cannot use Cloak and Dagger to recover our rotation either, should we be interrupted during a Malicious Sneak Attack or casting of a Stolen Skill, as the initiative cost is simply too high.

Ultimately, this leaves cDE in a worse place than it was in PvE prior to the May 11th balance patch.

 

With good RNG on the Stolen Skill (high numbers of Steal Defenses, Steal Resistance and Steal Health) and with prestacking of venoms (conditions that are not possible in raids) we bench at 40k with allies. This bench also involves Shadow Strike porting and relies on full quickness and alacrity uptime - something that is not likely in raids if you do not jump cancel the Shadow Strike port! Without prestacking, but presuming full boons with Shadow Strike port, we are offering similar DPS to cFB - around 38k.

So, we've ended up with a rotation that is more cumbersome, forces a specific heal, utility and elite skill loadout, is tighter and more difficult to execute on the golem and is a pig in actual fights (someone applies stealth to you the rotation is messed up, interrupted during a Malicious Sneak Attack and the rotation is messed up, knocked or CCed during the use of a Stolen Skill and the rotation is messed up).

Against the situation prior to the 11th May balance patch we have:

1. Effectively the same DPS on golem.
2. A harder rotation.
3. Harder execution on actual fights.
4. No possibility of utility or CC if we want the same DPS as before the 11th May balance patch.
5. Retained limitation of single target, no cleave, forced movement during the rotation, difficulty target switching, issues with adds body blocking, a rotation that forces porting, difficulty stacking cDEs due to venom overwriting, huge reliance on boons.

Now, all of this would be tolerable and absolutely fine if cDE was the premier condi DPS option. Being awkward to play, being limited in number in groups and not being able to CC or offer some support would be absolutely  fine in a vacuum and I don't think anyone would sniff at 38k DPS even with those limitation. They would be daft to - a DPS doing 38k is brilliant.

However, that presumes we aren't competing with other DPS options. We are and the game actively encourages alts with lack of primary and secondary progression systems, ease of levelling and ease of gearing. So what are we up against?

We're about 1k DPS higher than Scourge, which has better ranged DPS, better incidental support, better self-sustain and can bring CC and cleave. Scourge DPS uptime is also generally higher given our reliance on accessing Repeater. Scourge also has Epidemic, which is currently much more defining of Dark Ai compositions than cDE ever was. See here for early signs of play distributions.

We're about the same DPS as cFB with allies (prestacking venoms discounted). Only, we don't have access to tomes for a range of support measures, we don't have cleave and we don't have CC.

We're lower DPS than cRen which still reaches about 44k with allies (video is from 11th May patch, but the non-allies number has only decreased by about 100 DPS - see here). Our rotation is also harder to recover from mess-ups and cRen brings cleave and CC if needed.

Staff cMirage is still broken so yeah, not exactly comparable! However, we are about 2k DPS higher, neglecting the 21 stacks of Confusion that Chaos Axe Mirage also brings. So on any fight where Confusion can tick, Axe Mirage will be a lot higher than us.

So while I can agree with many of the previous posters that the build, taken in a vacuum, is not dead, why would anyone be inclined to run cDE over the other options? We do less DPS, we have a less lenient rotation, we cannot bring cleave, we cannot bring CC, we suffer when target switching and we port about like we are possessed with the spirit of Benny Hill. 

All of this stems from the cost of Repeater in PvE moving from 2 initiative to 3. Aside from the porting. We just need to accept that!

With Repeater costing 2 initiative, we actually have choices as we can use Cloak and Dagger for Stealth access. This opens up a lot of things that are standard for other condition damage options. We can use Mercy for target switching. We can drop Mercy and run Thousand Needles or Caltrops for cleave. We can drop Shadow Meld and run Basilisk Venom for CC. We can choose the heal option - Signet of Malice, Hide in Shadows, Malicious Restoration - that works best for our playstyle and for the fight. With Repeater at 3 initiative we cannot do this and it sorely limits cDE against the much stronger competition in basically all metrics. We still win in ridiculous porting thankfully.

I really struggle to see how the Repeater initiative cost change does anything to help Thief build diversity. cDE is going back to a niche build played by stubborn idiots like myself, all while offering less for much more effort against pre-11th May cDE and other professions. cDD remains awkward due to all the wonkiness of Death Blossom and there are no signs that is being fixed. So what has actually been achieved?

Thief remains in a poor spot and that small moment where people might have seriously considered playing a condi Thief in PvE has gone. Interest could have remained by numerical tweaks to the damage output of Malicious Sneak Attack especially - Torment and Bleeding being reduced on this skill would be preferable over 3 initiative Repeater.

For any next balance tuning, Repeater should return to 2 initiative in PvE, allowing us to access stealth with Cloak and Dagger, freeing up a utility slot, allowing a choice of heals and giving us the option to run Basilisk Venom if needed instead of Shadow Meld. As this will allow for higher DPS via Caltrops and Thousand needles, I'd suggest further nerfs to the Torment and Bleeding output of Malicious Sneak Attack to compensate.

Thank you for listening to my TED Talk.

Love, a cDE PvE main for years.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

A tl;dr of the above:

cDE is now a lot worse than other condition builds for DPS, utility, CC, support and cleave.

cDE rotation is now more punishing and initiative and stealth access starvation forces a very certain loadout.

Repeater moving from 2 initiative to 3 initiative in PvE is the cause of the forced loadout. It is a substantial nerf for PvE cDE.
Repeater moving from 2 initiative to 3 initiative in PvE not only nerfs DPS, but nerfs overall utility and possibility of cleave. This leaves cDE in a poor place against others builds.
Repeater should be reverted to 2 initiative and Malicious Sneak Attack nerfed to compensate, aiming for 37k to 38k DPS with allies, without prestacking, at most.

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Lucinellia.9247

[Lucinellia.9247]

On 5/26/2021 at 10:08 PM, Shade.8971 said:

Remember when Anet wanted more build diversity for Thieves in PvE? Then decided to remove boon thief from the 3 fights it was used in, gave us a meta condi build that needed to be toned down.  Removed said meta condi build from all PvE content except 100CM (cFB is honestly still just the better option here), and now have left us with only pDD, which is only meta for Magnetic bomb and a few fractal skips. 

Just wait until people realise that condi Scourge can do equivalent DPS to cDE and cFB on this fight, shares some Might, can apply barrier, can CC (which cDE can't without weapon swapping to P/P) and bringing two allows for every Sorrow on Dark Ai to be killed by Epidemic, with potentially using one Shade if needed. 

It is slowly catching on....