Hard Mode, Heroic Mode, Ect...

[PopeUrban.2578]

Ohoni, at what point have I stated to either of you that your statements "ring hollow" or asked you to "just admit what you really want?" You are deliberately, and repeatedly dismissing the basic argument of risk/reward balance and its role in loot assignments by attempting to rephrase it as "elitists want special stuff only for themselves"

Your seeming inability to understand that challenge and loot, are not mutually exclusive desires, but expected parts of the same hole for a large number of players does not "ring hollow" to me. I'm not asking you to "admit what you really want" here. I understand that you really do think that a significant portion of the player base is motivated specifically by the rewards themselves, rather than by the fact that exclusive rewards serve as meaningful trophies for completing hard encounters, and that their existance is part of, not the entirety of, that which makes that content engaging.

Was my assessment that your basic position is that you want access to the entirety of loot based rewards (specifically, skins and stat sets) for doing whatever content you choose incorrect? Please clarify for me if I have misunderstood you.

When reacting to the statement "people want unique rewards for completing challenging content" with variants on "no, you want to gate people out of content, you don't care about the challenge of the content, only the exclusivity of the loot other people can't have" it appears that you're not actually considering the point given. It appears you're attempting, primarily, to appeal to a statement that was never made. It appears that you, specifically, are incapable of viewing loot gated behind content you can't or won't complete as being witheld from you unfairly.

I'm not projecting here, I'm reacting to the posts the two of you actually typed.

Further, I can't agree that titles or trophies are "ok" as exclusives while skins are not because, functionally, they serve the same purpose. They are cosmetic acquisitions used to decorate. I can't see a functional rift that necessitates that skins, specifically be treated differently than titles or trophies. I don't specifically see how that's a "compromise" as the "compromise" is already in effect. You can't do fractals for LS skins. You can't do open world content for raid skins. You can't farm silverwastes for pof titles and skins. I don't own the vast majority of open world token skins because it is beyond my personal ability to tolerate grind. I do not have the patience to do that content in the amount of repetition it would require to obtain them. I do not possess that player skill.

The difference between our two positions seems to be that I am okay with being gated out of rewards for which I don't enjoy the content, and you are not. Don't let me put words in your mouth here. Please clarify if I have misunderstood you.

The crux of your position seems to be, at its core, the ideal that skins should be exempt from the requirement of completing specific tasks because some players may not be able to complete specific tasks. Am I correct? I fundamentally disagree with this position not because I think you have some ulterior motive. I disagree with it because I think it creates boring loot and undermines the primary reward mechanism of the game as it is and has been since launch. I don't think your statements "ring hollow" and I don't think you are saying anything other than exactly what you mean to say.

[maddoctor.2738]

@STIHL.2489 said:There are two ways to handle reward.

1. Adjust the difficulty of the Content.
2. Adjust the Reward.

Or as I said, add exclusive/unique rewards, or rare rewards that are obtainable without RNG. It can be part of Adjusting the reward, but not talking about regular loot or gold drops, rather give the content something unique for players to go for.

One example of making rewards better:Champion mobs in this game used to drop nothing, and nobody was bothering with them because it was too much of a hassle. Then one day they added new rewards to those Champions, they started dropping Bloodstone Dust, which for a limited time was actually rare, don't look at it now. And they added some loot bags with a chance to give unique exotic loot based on the champion family. Boom Champions started being killed. I don't think anyone kills them for the standard blue and green that you get but for that extra loot box that has a chance for some good unique skins (that are also expensive to sell on the TP)

And an example of bad rewards:Why does everyone ignore the bosses in the Labyrinth? Because they drop a bit more than what the normal mobs do but you can still dozens of regular mobs in the time it takes to kill a boss. So why bother? If the Lab bosses had a chance to drop one of the unique skins that are also available inside Trick-or-treat bags then they would be killed way more often for that extra chance

The Champions Bounties have no unique loot only available to them. The Legendary ones drop Elegy Mosaics but those do not give much interesting rewards and players ignore them. The Trade Contracts that you gain by finishing events in PoF can be exchanged for minis... Adding something worthwhile behind Trade Contracts is a great way to revitalize PoF zones and players will start finishing PoF events.

If possible, never adjust the difficulty, only adjust the rewards

[Ohoni.6057]

@PopeUrban.2578 said:Ohoni, at what point have I stated to either of you that your statements "ring hollow" or asked you to "just admit what you really want?" You are deliberately, and repeatedly dismissing the basic argument of risk/reward balance and its role in loot assignments by attempting to rephrase it as "elitists want special stuff only for themselves". . .You would consider the following points to be fairly representing my own position in good faith?

What happens when a player sees a title and says "I want that" and finds out they need to do specific content to get it? How is that any different from a skin? That's an exclusive reward, exclusively obtainable, for doing exclusive content that may be beyond a player's challenge level.

I mean I decorate my guild hall regularly, and I'm seeing these PvP tournament trophies that are literally unobtainable. In your opinion, should there be some method for me to obtain a world championship trophy for my guild hall that commemorates an event that has ended, for which only a handful of players could ever have recieved this award?

Not as pointless strawman arguments?

Interesting. . .

Was my assessment that your basic position is that you want access to the entirety of loot based rewards (specifically, skins and stat sets) for doing whatever content you choose incorrect? Please clarify for me if I have misunderstood you.

That is accurate, although I have noted that there are certain categories of reward for which this does not qualify because the rewards in question are of limited to zero intrinsic value.

When reacting to the statement "people want unique rewards for completing challenging content" with variants on "no, you want to gate people out of content, you don't care about the challenge of the content, only the exclusivity of the loot other people can't have" it appears that you're not actually considering the point given.

No, it's more looking at the same point from a different angle. They are in no way contradictory statements, they are just portrayed in a different light.

It appears that you, specifically, are incapable of viewing loot gated behind content you can't or won't complete as being witheld from you unfairly.

Not "unfairly," exactly, there really is no objective "fair" or "unfair" in this sort of situation, but "unproductively," certainly, or "unnecessarily." I believe it causes more harm to the game and its population than it does benefit, and for that reason it would be in the overall best interests of the game to do better.

Further, I can't agree that titles or trophies are "ok" as exclusives while skins are not because, functionally, they serve the same purpose.

They most certainly do not. Again, if you do believe that they serve the same purpose, then that's fine, you can have all the exclusive titles you want, and I can have all the skins be non-exclusive like how I'd want, and we can both be happy with that situation.

You can't do fractals for LS skins. You can't do open world content for raid skins. You can't farm silverwastes for pof titles and skins.

Yes, the game still has a long way to go, but it can always improve.

I don't own the vast majority of open world token skins because it is beyond my personal ability to tolerate grind. I do not have the patience to do that content in the amount of repetition it would require to obtain them. I do not possess that player skill.

And that's fine, but if you actually cared about having those skins, not because of any "I did this" accomplishment market, but because you actually cared about how your character would look wearing those skins, then wouldn't your play experience be improved by having access to those skins, without doing content that you don't enjoy? This does not seem to be the case, you personally do not seem invested in the intrinsic cosmetic value of a skin divorced from its context, but just understand as an absolute fact that there exist people who DO value the intrinsic elements of the skin, and try to imagine how you'd feel if you were one of them.

The difference between our two positions seems to be that I am okay with being gated out of rewards for which I don't enjoy the content, and you are not.

You got half way. That is all true, to that point. But the further point is that not only do you not care about being gated out of the rewards, and not only do you know that I am not, but also you are ok with me not being ok with it.You lack any sympathy for those players who care about skins, and would want them whether or not they want to do the attached content. Please clarify if I have misunderstood you.

[PopeUrban.2578]

For the record I was not constructing a straw man in the trophy example, I was asking a simple question: What is the intrinsic difference that places skins in a category that should be immune to exclusivity separate from trophies or titles? A question you have failed to answer. My point there is that all rewards have intrinsic value. Personally, I place higher value on guild hall trophies than skins or titles specifically because I can display all of them at once, and that players other than myself can enjoy them even when I'm not around. That doesn't mean I get to dictate apropo of nothing that trophies have an intrinsically higher value to all players. You, specifically, place a higher personal value on skins. I recognize that rewards have subjective value to their recipients. I was pointing out that your logic is based upon a concept that doesn't exist in GW2. That skins are divorced from content. I was pointing out that your logic and "compromise" is flawed from that perspective.

In reality, the skin-based compromises that have thusfar been made are that the majority of PvE skins can be acquired through PvP and WvW reward tracks. Past that, I can't think (and please correct me if I've missed one) of an instance where a skin reward bound to content was ever decoupled from it. I'm not ascribing moral value here to the act or lack of such decoupling. I'm ascribing appropriateness for this specific game based upon this specific game's reward model that has remained largely unchanged in PvE since launch.

I am also ok with you not being OK with it not because of a lack of empathy, I understand that you want access, specifically, to skins regardless of content completed. However, I also understand that these two positions are mutually exclusive. My position on this matter aligns with the existing desgin and reward structure of the game, its overall intent, and the trend of development from its developers since launch. This is, why I hold this opinion.

If we were having the same discussion in a different game, where skins were and had always been decoupled from content, I would agree with you. if we were playing Overwatch, in which all cosmetics are divorced from content because they are randomly acquired, I would be upset if suddenly some new game mode came along thatwas the sole source of specific skins. In the case of GW2 I disagree with you specifically because content based rewards are part of why I currently enjoy playing the existing game and see no reason to upend the entire system and remake it in to something it has never been. Not because I want you to be sad. Because your position is an absolute. The question is "should skins be tied to specific content?" and from what I understand of your position the only option is "Never" while mine is "Sometimes, and in varying degrees" This is the same answer I give in response to all forms of reward, while you have a difference of opinion that makes skins a special case.

And that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, provided it isn't phrased as if the act of witholding is the motivation for those who wish to continue the status quo. Witholding is a product of, not the motivation for, content based loot. It is the result of someone wanting something the game has never offered them, and choosing to be because a theoretical reality that has not come to pass. I understand the theoretical reality that you want here. I also understand that it by its absolutist nature, destroys a mechanic of the existing one that I happen to enjoy.

I don't for a moment think you're asking this to inconvenience me, nor do I think you're devoid of empathy. I think we're both adults capable of recognizing that this is a computer game that we play for recreation, and that we hold opposing and irreconcilable viewpoints. I'd also like to think we're both capable of holding said viewpoints without calling in to question the stated motives or personal integrity of the other.

[Ohoni.6057]

@PopeUrban.2578 said:For the record I was not constructing a straw man in the trophy example, I was asking a simple question: What is the intrinsic difference that places skins in a category that should be immune to exclusivity separate from trophies or titles?

I thought I was fairly clear on that, but I can repeat myself. Skins are an element of design. They are a reflection of your character. Each skin (in most cases) looks significantly different than another, and as such better or worse reflects the image that a character wants to project. Most decorations fill the same function, as well as having practical uses in terms of controlling the space in a Guild Hall. Titles do not have this large an impact, because they do not alter the visual of the character. You could say that a specific title better reflects your personality, but for the most part players can make do, and I've yet to hear of a single player who is phenomenally worked up about getting a specific title (without caring about the attached Achievement). Likewise, the "trophy" items in a guild hall are typically a bit generic in form, they aren't really something too many players would be worked up about having if not to show off that they'd accomplished some sort of task.

You don't need to understand this, just accept it as a fact and move forward on that basis.

Personally, I place higher value on guild hall trophies than skins or titles specifically because I can display all of them at once, and that players other than myself can enjoy them even when I'm not around.

Ok, let me ask you this honestly then, would you care about those guild hall trophies if any player could buy any one of them for 1cp and display it at will? Or do you value them only because they celebrate an accomplishment? If the latter, then you're agreeing with my point, the trophies do not have intrinsic value, they only have extrinsic value placed on them by their association with completing that task. A skin can have that extrinsic value, you certainly seem to value that more than its intrinsic value, but many players still value the intrinsic aspects, the quality of the skin that has absolutely nothing to do with what goes into acquiring it. That's my point. Again, you don't have to sympathize with these people, just understand as a fact that they exist.

In reality, the skin-based compromises that have thusfar been made are that the majority of PvE skins can be acquired through PvP and WvW reward tracks. Past that, I can't think (and please correct me if I've missed one) of an instance where a skin reward bound to content was ever decoupled from it.

That means nothing in terms of what they could do in future. Up until two months ago, GW2 didn't have Mounts, and up until four months ago, it never would have mounts. Now there are mounts. With skins. Anything is possible, we're discussing how things should be.

I am also ok with you not being OK with it not because of a lack of empathy, I understand that you want access, specifically, to skins regardless of content completed. However, I also understand that these two positions are mutually exclusive. My position on this matter aligns with the existing desgin and reward structure of the game, its overall intent, and the trend of development from its developers since launch. This is, why I hold this opinion.

I believe that so long as you have access to some things that are exclusive based on accomplishment, such as titles and trophies, that you should be satisfied with that. It may not be everything you want, but it should be enough. I believe that since you do not seem to value the intrinsic value of skins, while others do, the best case scenario is that BOTH of you have access to them, rather than just you. You both have access to the skins, and you can get your "accomplishment value" out of non-skin rewards. It may not be everything you want, it may not be "how things are right now," but it's a reasonable compromise that provides the maximum total happiness to the player population. You would be made less sad by the change than people would be made happy.

And that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, provided it isn't phrased as if the act of witholding is the motivation for those who wish to continue the status quo. Witholding is a product of, not the motivation for, content based loot.

You raise an interesting philosophical question here. Ok, so your premise is that you value "loot which comes from a specific source," and nothing more than that. That it's not about denying other players access to said loot. Ok. So what about this, what if they did have various skins in the game that could ONLY be acquired through very specific means, but all of these items could be acquired with very minimal time and effort. Anyone could do it, and it wouldn't take more than a few minutes per item. It would be very specific, you'd need to go to specific locations, run specific events, but it wouldn't be at all exclusive, nobody who could play the game at any level would be incapable of getting any item they wanted. Would that satisfy your conditions?

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

@Ohoni.6057 said:You could say that a specific title better reflects your personality, but for the most part players can make do, and I've yet to hear of a single player who is phenomenally worked up about getting a specific title (without caring about the attached Achievement).I just want to say that just for me personally and for this one situation, I saw someone with the title of Disciple of Palawa Joko and really would like that title. Of course, I didn't go about getting it yet, but as you said though, the title in a way kind of reflects the personality a bit.I don't know anything about Joko outside what I saw in this game as I never played GW1, but I do have to say I think he's cool and would like that title to "advertise" it too.

Ok, let me ask you this honestly then, would you care about those guild hall trophies if any player could buy any one of them for 1cp and display it at will? Or do you value them only because they celebrate an accomplishment? If the latter, then you're agreeing with my point, the trophies do not have intrinsic value, they only have extrinsic value placed on them by their association with completing that task. A skin can have that extrinsic value, you certainly seem to value that more than its intrinsic value, but many players still value the intrinsic aspects, the quality of the skin that has absolutely nothing to do with what goes into acquiring it. That's my point. Again, you don't have to sympathize with these people, just understand as a fact that they exist.Once again I want to say, while in the minority probably... I'm the former. I'm one that like how let's say a trophy or a skin look because it fits me or because I like it. That or if the idea/theme behind it works for a character (or guild hall) I would like to use it.For example, when one of those free chests you get from Arenanet happened a few months ago, one of the items I got is the most expensive mini that's on the trading post at the moment. I forgot it's name, but it's that robot thing from the boss fractals.I thought it looked cool, but it just doesn't work/fit me at all. Maybe one day I'll have a character it works for. The mini I use? Is the black widow spider, which is one of the cheapest minis you can get in the trading post. I think it's for a few silver only. It's not the value, but because I think it's cute.......that and it reminds me of my real black widow spiders.

That means nothing in terms of what they could do in future. Up until two months ago, GW2 didn't have Mounts, and up until four months ago, it never would have mounts. Now there are mounts. With skins. Anything is possible, we're discussing how things should be.I wasn't around, but people posted enough times the sources showing that Arenanet clearly only stated that they didn't plan for any mounts when the game was released and never said there would never be mounts.Not saying that they said "we will never do skins/loot this way", but you also can't say that before PoF that it "never" would've happened as you can't say what you don't know.

I believe that so long as you have access to some things that are exclusive based on accomplishment, such as titles and trophies, that you should be satisfied with that. It may not be everything you want, but it should be enough. I believe that since you do not seem to value the intrinsic value of skins, while others do, the best case scenario is that BOTH of you have access to them, rather than just you. You both have access to the skins, and you can get your "accomplishment value" out of non-skin rewards. It may not be everything you want, it may not be "how things are right now," but it's a reasonable compromise that provides the maximum total happiness to the player population. You would be made less sad by the change than people would be made happy.

You also seem to not understand how the whole "want" thing works and the whole "satisfy" thing works either.I could've have gotten let's say that Eternity sword... I think that's the name? That sword with the puddles and that kind of look on it like a big popsicle thing?The thing is:

1. I don't use greatsword on any class I play.
2. I don't like how it look.I'm not going to bash or attack anyone that got one or want/ed one as they like it. That's their business and right, but you can't really go with that idea.Like back to that sword, I always saw it as the "Glitch Sword". It wasn't until playing Halloween this year that I now assume the sword is meant to show like a gatway to another dimension? I think that's the idea? But honestly I always saw it as a sword that the alpha textures is not working right which makes it kind of look flat. Due to it looking a bit flat like that and the alphas (in my head) not working, that what I'm seeing is the outer borders of the map of the area I was in and it's showing the stretched out blurry outer realm of the map I was never supposed to see because of the surroundings completely hiding it.What am I getting at with this? What I'm saying is that, if I'm allergic to peanut butter to the point that it can kill me... but I'm starving to death... you can't say, "Well you got food, so you should just be satisfied with what you got."Once again more extreme than a simple skin or loot, but that's kind of off to even say. Next as well is some people would need those items to do higher end content in the game like Ascended. Can't tell someone to just be satisfied with Rare... not exotic, but rare. And then expect them to just head off into let's say a Raid and think everyone would be fine with it either.

[Titan.3472]

L33T SP34K MODE (you learned smtg because Google is your friend xD)

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:I just want to say that just for me personally and for this one situation, I saw someone with the title of Disciple of Palawa Joko and really would like that title. Of course, I didn't go about getting it yet, but as you said though, the title in a way kind of reflects the personality a bit.

Granted, but I hope we can all agree that MOST players would be happier having convenient access to all possible skins than they would be having access to all possible titles? I'm not saying that they have zero value, I just believe that most would view their value as being significantly lower.

Once again I want to say, while in the minority probably... I'm the former. I'm one that like how let's say a trophy or a skin look because it fits me or because I like it. That or if the idea/theme behind it works for a character (or guild hall) I would like to use it.

I'm not talking skins, and I'm not talking general decorations like plants and Jade Ocean bricks or whatever. I'm just talking about the pure trophies here, the "slothazor on a pedestal" or the "silver Balthazar statue."

Not saying that they said "we will never do skins/loot this way", but you also can't say that before PoF that it "never" would've happened as you can't say what you don't know.

It was the common wisdom within the community at the time. Obviously within ANet they've known they were doing mounts for a couple of years now, but they were pretty much off the table so far as all but the most hopeful dreamers in the community thought, until they weren't.

What am I getting at with this? What I'm saying is that, if I'm allergic to peanut butter to the point that it can kill me... but I'm starving to death... you can't say, "Well you got food, so you should just be satisfied with what you got."

I agree 100%. There is no objective standard when it comes to skins, which is why nobody can say "well, you can't have skins A, B, or C, but you can have skins D-Z, so that's fine. It's not "fine" unless the skins the player wants are in D-Z, rather than A-C.

[PopeUrban.2578]

Ohoni, again, you're phrasing the intrinsic/extrinsic value of skins as mutually exclusive. They are not. Value is entirely subjective which is why I belive it is most appropriate to offer a range of acquisition methods for a range of rewards rather than unify every single reward in to the same system that aims for the skill floor exclusively

Because it ensures that skins, titles, trophies, etc. etc. exist with variant acquisition methods suitable to variant playstyles and subjective reward values because it addresses a larger number of the many niche personal goals that players hold.

I own SAB tribulation skins that I don't even use specifically because they are trophies and I worked much harder to get several of my silverwastes titles than I did to obtain the sunspear armor that my most played character wears and they have corresponding different personal value to me I adore my sunspear armor for its aesthetic value. I adore my SAB skins for their trophy value. I adore my monocle skin because it was a gift. Skins are not a different animal just because you wear them. They are purely cosmetic rewards, and they have relative value persuant to personal taste and personal meaning.

Skins are absolutely the rewards most desired by players for the reasons you have specified which is why I am of the opinion that they are absolutely appropriate as trophy pieces in addition to their utilization as clothing. I am also completely against any situation in which the possibility of utilizing the most desirable rewards in the game as trophies is removed. I'm against this because this application literally removes the game's most appealing reward mechanism from the game's most challenging content.

Your theoretical system removes the very possibility of skins as wearable trophy items for no reason other than that someone might want it but be unwilling or unable to to its associated content. I do not believe simply desiring a cosmetic reward, in a game where the entire endgame reward structure is focused around playing the game to acquire cosmetics, is sufficient reason for a player to have it. I don't believe my desire to have the houndskin mantle should obligate the game to give it to me for doing some fractals just because I enjoy repeating fractals more than repeating open world content. I believe that players are entitled to the rewards they earn, and I am cognizant of the fact I have not earned that reward. Just like I haven't earned most of the dungeon skins, or any of the raid skins. I am cognizant that I'm playing a game in which the acquisition of skins is "do whatever task the game has attached to this skin" whether its simply buying it from another player, collecting a bunch of tokens, completing a collection, or finishing a raid wing and crossing my fingers. I am appreciateive of the fact that the game offers a wide variety of cosmetic rewards for all types of play so that all types of play are uniquely rewarding to those that play them. I LIKE that people that like to farm open world stuff have skins dedicated to that play pattern. I LIKE that PvP and WvW having their own unique armor rewards now. I LIKE this despite the fact that I may never obtain those rewards, even though I find many of them attractive because I know it means that the content I do enjoy also confers its own special rewards.

Trophies, titles, and skins are all cosmetic rewards that have no value other than to serve as trophies or to be displayed for aesthetic value and that's what I mean, specifically, when I state they have the same mechanical purpose. When you divorce rewards from their subjective personal value, they do the same thing. They are displayed in the client for the character/guild hall and those in view of them.

As to your example for having multiple skins tied to small, simple sections of content? Absolutely. In fact the personal story in PoF does a pretty good job of this by rewarding an entire armor set simply for completing the storyline. However I don't understand why that system can not coexist with other completely different skins that are rewarded for different challenge levels of content and recognize that this is a compromise that best rewards all involved players already.

Again, your argument is an absolute. Its a fundamental change to the way the core reward mechanism of GW2 works that effectively reserves only the rewards you deem appropriate rather than all rewards as fair game for variant acquisition methods. It is not an additional mechanic like mounts. It is a complete upending of the way the game's reward system functions for all content done in a way that makes a minority of content in the game less rewarding for the majority of players that play it. Contrasted with the current system, where all levels of content are treated with an even hand for unique rewards based upon playing that content I prefer the latter, because it ensures that literally every player can get something cool and different and personally for doing their preferred content while also benefiting from several shared pools.

[troops.8276]

There are 'buffs' that increase loot drop is there not. Why not make one that also drops your effective level by x amount. A cheap workaround.But just in case it is implemented as described by the OP, can I be the first to say "nerf the hard mode because I cant do it (and get the loot)" /s

[Asura Master Race.1593]

@Coulter.2315 said:I really enjoyed the hard mode GW1 maps, would enjoy this in GW2 but sounds like it would need a lot of work to implement. I think best we can hope for it Anet just upping the difficulty in certain areas they produce, which I hope they do (PoF was lacking in difficult content - which is bad for a second expansion).

Lacking?

What game have you been playing?

Don't roll as a necromancer or a warrior and call content easy.

Try daredevil. ;D

[Ohoni.6057]

@PopeUrban.2578 said:Ohoni, again, you're phrasing the intrinsic/extrinsic value of skins as mutually exclusive. They are not. Value is entirely subjective which is why I belive it is most appropriate to offer a range of acquisition methods for a range of rewards rather than unify every single reward in to the same system that aims for the skill floor exclusively

Do you accept, as an absolute fact, that there exist people who can believe that one skin is "better" to them than another skin, regardless of the method for acquiring said skin (ie that they would place value in that skin whether it could only be earned via a Legendary quest, OR it was earned via a free giveaway)?

Do you believe that it's possible to "fairly value" a skin, providing a method of acquiring it that accurately balances the amount of effort each person would need to spend to acquire it, against the amount of desire they have for that skin? Across all possible players at once?

Do you accept that if Reward A is tied to activity A, and B to B, and so on, that if a player wants Reward A but prefers Activity B, and a second player wants Reward B and prefers Activity B, that the second player will have an overall better experience with the game, due to nothing more than the random chance that the developers chose to stick those items with those activities, when they could just as easily have done the opposite? Why do you believe that this results in a better overall player experience?

I own SAB tribulation skins that I don't even use specifically because they are trophies and I worked much harder to get several of my silverwastes titles than I did to obtain the sunspear armor that my most played character wears and they have corresponding different personal value to me I adore my sunspear armor for its aesthetic value.

So what would be better, that you have that skin sitting in your inventory, collecting dust, or that someone who really likes that skin has it equipped on their character? Which of you players would be gaining the most benefit from owning that skin? Why do you insist that this other player cannot have that skin so that you can keep it in your inventory? Couldn't you somehow be content with having your " trophy that you worked much harder to get" be something that nobody else would want strictly for its own value?

As to your example for having multiple skins tied to small, simple sections of content? Absolutely. In fact the personal story in PoF does a pretty good job of this by rewarding an entire armor set simply for completing the storyline. However I don't understand why that system can not coexist with other completely different skins that are rewarded for different challenge levels of content and recognize that this is a compromise that best rewards all involved players already.

Because of the subjectivity you were discussing above. Skins are not fungible. Ten skins are not better than one. A thousand skins is not better than one, IF that one skin is the one someone wants and the thousand are ones that he thinks are junk. You can't say "you can get all these skins easy, but this one can only be hard," if the hard one is the one someone wants. From your perspective, you're offering a dozen dollar bills in exchange for a single $10 bill, from his perspective you're offering him a dozen pennies in exchange for a hundred dollar bill. It's impossible to reconcile that system in a way that will please everyone, the only way to resolve it for everyone is to allow everyone to choose the things they want, the things they value.

[Asura Master Race.1593]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@PopeUrban.2578 said:Stihl, look, I don't understand why this is a difficult concept for you. If people specifically just wanted more loot they wouldn't be begging for content that makes it harder to get. They'd just ask for drops for the current level of content to be improved.

People don't JUST want more loot. They want loot to be appropriate to the challenge undertaken, AND they want more challenging content. You're phrasing this as an either-or scenario and it really isn't. People don't necessarily want either challenge OR loot. In cases like this one the motive is very clearly stated. People want both, not one or the other, because they find either or to be unsatisfactory. Many people don't like taking on greater challenge without greater reward, and find it boring to simply be given greater rewards without doing anything particularly challenging.

As Ohoni said It's about wanting special or exclusive loot, often under the disguise that they need to make content harder to ween out those you feel are undeserving of same loot as you. It's really nothing more then an insidious way to beg for the developers to give you way to flaunt your e-kitten.

Just loot at what happened on my other topic, people became so inconsolable and petty about a jump puzzle at a stupid campy festival, fusing about how it would invalidate how great they are, or some such nonsense. It's better to admit your real motive.

With that said, really, did you miss what game you were playing? Being great at GW2 is like being the fastest person in a Marching Band, or having the best tan at a goth festival.

Are you catching what I am laying down here?

lets get clear, if you wanted challenging content, there are a legion of other MMOs out there, GW2, by its inception was never about placating peoples vanity and ego, it was about designing a game around fun first.

PvE in GW2, is like the retirement home of MMO's, you know, where people go to get away from the real challenging MMOs out there, To come here and ask for more challenge, like dude, if you wanted challenge , why did you come here? That is like going to the dog park looking for a place to run... that is like taking your fishing pole to a vacation at the dead sea.. are you getting what I am laying down here?

As such, if you are coming here asking for challenge, your motive is really just ask for loot you don't want other people to get. Ergo.. it's all about the loot.

As a side note, you can finish the race in under two minutes on foot. Its still worth it for the loot or challenge, whichever you prefer. Try it with a daredevil if you have one, or join a squad specifically doing that. Its definitely not as easy as doing it with a mount, but it is possible. One of the lab farms I was in was really nice and helped someone do it this way when they asked.

Humm.. Nope.. refuse to play a thief (an I'll be damned if I will play one long enough to get an elite spec).. tried with an Ele with Traveler Runes.. still not much luck..

You are absolutely hilarious.

Start a web series with that snarkiness and you'll be a hit.

[STIHL.2489]

@PopeUrban.2578 said:Are you responding to my post here Ayumi? I apologise if my wording wasn't clear but I happen to agree with what you've posted. I'm not sure if you're responding to me or Stihl here and am kind of confused if you're trying to make a point to me.

Long Story Short, they are saying "If you bothered to look at any other part of this forum, you would know that it's all about the loot"

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:There are two ways to handle reward.

1. Adjust the difficulty of the Content.
2. Adjust the Reward.

Or as I said, add exclusive/unique rewards, or rare rewards that are obtainable without RNG. It can be part of Adjusting the reward, but not talking about regular loot or gold drops, rather give the content something unique for players to go for.

The problem with this idea, is that real motive is nothing more then to skill gate some skins.

One example of making rewards better:Champion mobs in this game used to drop nothing, and nobody was bothering with them because it was too much of a hassle. Then one day they added new rewards to those Champions, they started dropping Bloodstone Dust, which for a limited time was actually rare, don't look at it now. And they added some loot bags with a chance to give unique exotic loot based on the champion family. Boom Champions started being killed. I don't think anyone kills them for the standard blue and green that you get but for that extra loot box that has a chance for some good unique skins (that are also expensive to sell on the TP)

If you are talking world Bosses, they have always been a popular kill, if you are talking about the random champions like the champion corrupted around Jormag for example, they are still very much ignored.

And an example of bad rewards:Why does everyone ignore the bosses in the Labyrinth? Because they drop a bit more than what the normal mobs do but you can still dozens of regular mobs in the time it takes to kill a boss. So why bother? If the Lab bosses had a chance to drop one of the unique skins that are also available inside Trick-or-treat bags then they would be killed way more often for that extra chance

Nahh, the problem with things like the Horror is that it does not fit the environment, the Labyrinth is a very solo/duo friendly place to be, so.. this huge over powered boss that wanders the hall, is out of place to that game feel.

However, killing the horror is not a huge problem, just pop a tag and call a boss hunt, and people will show up to kick their butts. I've done this plenty of times myself already. Upping rewards won't make people like him more, as they still have no chance to kill him if they are solo/duo.

I know we won't agree, but Personally, I wold rather see the Bosses scaled down to make them an encounter more doable by duo/small groups, as that would make dealing with the Horror overall less a chore, while upping the loot would do little other then have some farmers hang around, which IMHO is not an improvement to the game.

See, I would gladly kill the Lich, Count and Horror far more often if they were easier.. and I am sure many others would as well with no change in the reward structure. I'd say, If they were Elite level as opposed to their current Champion level, and they would not only be a welcomed addition to the Lab, but, also for the people running around trying to have some silly fun, they would have a good reward/loot ratio, attached to them at that point.

If possible, never adjust the difficulty, only adjust the rewards

See this is where will never agree, Tweaking and adjusting difficulty is a natural part of a game. Some things are just better made easier or harder, because their current placement is maligned to the rest of the content they are in.

Case in Point, how hard and often the Horror spawns, if it was a much easier fight, it would fit better to the environment of the rest Lab and how people play it, and the rewards would be far more worth it.

Now, if they made it so that.. say.. if you killed all 3 Boss Mobs, then there was a small CHANCE (say 5%) that the Mad King would walk and he would be a Champion level mob, and he would take a walk of the Lab.. and if not killed by the time he finished his walk (he would also stat out as yellow named, and a player would need to attack him first to get him to attack them), he would de-spawn, then, yes, that would be great. and he could give something like 100 ToT bags, 250 Candy Corn, and a BL Claim Ticket Scrap. Maybe. Now that would be a good dynamic to add.

but a Champion level Skeleton that runs around killing people.. lame.. no matter what their rewards are, does not make them less lame.

[Deihnyx.6318]

There are several ways of making rewards more valuable.

The raw cost of the item, you have to give out that much gold, or that many crafting component : It's basically grinding and doesn't require any particular skill.OR - You make content harder, so that rewards are more difficult to get, and so logically less common drops.There's a lot of grind in this game already, so new ways of obtaining rewards through challenge rather than grind would be very appreciable indeed.

@STIHL.2489 said:lets get clear, if you wanted challenging content, there are a legion of other MMOs out there, GW2, by its inception was never about placating peoples vanity and ego, it was about designing a game around fun first.Fun is different for everyone, mine is to be facing challenge, that's where my ego lies. For others, it's about getting skins with low effort/lots of grind.And yeah I do like getting rewards for it too, nothing wrong with that.I've done all HM maps in GW1 and had a lot of fun with it, there was no big reward at the end of them beside a title, people do these things sometimes, to have fun.

There wouldn't be so many threads about nerfing this or that is GW2's only definition of fun was to make it easy and grindy.

[maddoctor.2738]

@STIHL.2489 said:The problem with this idea, is that real motive is nothing more then to skill gate some skins.

No it's for content to have its own rewards regardless of its difficulty. It's all about making all content rewarding. I don't understand why a skill gate is a bad thing. For other things we have an RNG gate or a farm gate. I'd like a skill gate over those as I find RNG and excessive farming to be the things that turn me away of a game.

If you are talking world Bosses, they have always been a popular kill, if you are talking about the random champions like the champion corrupted around Jormag for example, they are still very much ignored.

Talking about Champions, those guys with a yellow border and usually a defiance bar, I don't know how else to call them. You know like the old Champion train in Queensdale you had to kill Champions, how the Champion train works in Cursed Shore or the Bounties in Path of Fire, those are Champions. They exist all over the place yet it was pointless to engage them, until they changed their rewards. And some of the Champions around Jormag drop normal champion and it's worth killing them, wolves and trolls. The others do not drop anything so it's pointless to engage them, plus they have way higher health. Don't know how you misunderstood what a champion is though.

Nahh, the problem with things like the Horror is that it does not fit the environment, the Labyrinth is a very solo/duo friendly place to be, so.. this huge over powered boss that wanders the hall, is out of place to that game feel.

A solo/duo friendly place that gets a bazillion players. The difficulty of the Horror is irrelevant, it gives bad rewards just like the lich and the count. And giving something for big groups to do in the Lab other than killing normal mobs is better than making them "solo/duo friendly". The Lab by design will attract a bazillion players, that won't change, so tweaking the rewards of the only things that should be done by a huge groups is the best way to make the Lab better. Making them "elite" would just make them another regular mob that the blob kills. Not really exciting.

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:A solo/duo friendly place that gets a bazillion players. The difficulty of the Horror is irrelevant, it gives bad rewards just like the lich and the count. And giving something for big groups to do in the Lab other than killing normal mobs is better than making them "solo/duo friendly". The Lab by design will attract a bazillion players, that won't change, so tweaking the rewards of the only things that should be done by a huge groups is the best way to make the Lab better. Making them "elite" would just make them another regular mob that the blob kills. Not really exciting.

Nope wrong.

See.. that is that whole "Risk - Reward" thing, that I have been saying everyone is pretty much lying thought their teeth about taking effect right here.

By your own admission, You don't really want to balance risk-reward of mobs, you just want more loot to drop. Look at what you are saying "Nope... Don't make them easier, which would balance risk-reward, just give me more loot, and I'll pretend to enjoy it" .. because you know.. I like money.

But see that exposes why the whole 'risk-reward' thing, has always been and always will be, a farce.

Elitist players don't want balance, otherwise they would be all for mobs being toned down to match their loot rewards. Instead, it's always "gimmie more lootz"

That is why no one believes it, when people try to pass off this "I just want rewarding content that balances risk-reward"...yah.. Like a Christmas Fruit Cake.. no one believes that's real for a second.

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:lets get clear, if you wanted challenging content, there are a legion of other MMOs out there, GW2, by its inception was never about placating peoples vanity and ego, it was about designing a game around fun first.Fun is different for everyone, mine is to be facing challenge, that's where my ego lies.

Why is it.. when people tell me this.. I can't help but think these people never play PvP games. Really.. challenge.. like the same challenge that those Legendary PvE'ers could not handle getting map Completion in WvW. Spare me.. please.. really. My shovel is gonna break at this point, it's piled too high and deep.

[Ohoni.6057]

@maddoctor.2738 said:No it's for content to have its own rewards regardless of its difficulty. It's all about making all content rewarding. I don't understand why a skill gate is a bad thing. For other things we have an RNG gate or a farm gate. I'd like a skill gate over those as I find RNG and excessive farming to be the things that turn me away of a game.

Why not offer all three (and possibly more), so that if you want a given item, then rather than being stuck with the gate you get, you can choose the gate that most appeals to your tastes? Players that prefer overcoming challenging content can do that, complete the objective in a relatively short amount of time, an enjoy doing so. Players that would not enjoy overcoming that challenging content would have other options.

[Deihnyx.6318]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:lets get clear, if you wanted challenging content, there are a legion of other MMOs out there, GW2, by its inception was never about placating peoples vanity and ego, it was about designing a game around fun first.Fun is different for everyone, mine is to be facing challenge, that's where my ego lies.

Why is it.. when people tell me this.. I can't help but think these people never play PvP games. Really.. challenge.. like the same challenge that those Legendary PvE'ers could not handle getting map Completion in WvW. Spare me.. please.. really. My shovel is gonna break at this point, it's piled too high and deep.

Which only strengthen the point that the notion of fun is different for everyone. You can like challenge but not in pvp.

I do play pvp and get to wvw diamond every week, but I'm not looking for specific challenge about anything pvp related, since players themselves bring it. I do however look for more challenging content versus AI and having HM maps or dungeons or whatever seems like a nice way to do it. It makes all the dead maps alive again.

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:No it's for content to have its own rewards regardless of its difficulty. It's all about making all content rewarding. I don't understand why a skill gate is a bad thing. For other things we have an RNG gate or a farm gate. I'd like a skill gate over those as I find RNG and excessive farming to be the things that turn me away of a game.

Why not offer all three (and possibly more), so that if you want a given item, then rather than being stuck with the gate you get, you can choose the gate that most appeals to your tastes? Players that prefer overcoming challenging content can do that, complete the objective in a relatively short amount of time, an enjoy doing so. Players that would not enjoy overcoming that challenging content would have other options.

There is content gated behind all these types. I see 2 problems with making everything available through every different mean:

• First, people need to realize that a skin gated behind a specific skill (fractal CM, raid boss, whatever really) serves as proof of victory, just like a medal would IRL. Yes it's got everything to do with showing off, but that's how games like that are. You show off your skins because you're proud of your design, you show off your titles, and in the same way, you show off your skill at a particular activity.
• Second, you want to make it accessible for those who don't possess skill X to access it through grind, ok. What about the other way around? Do you give out all the skins in "skilled" content? How do you do that?

These are all convenience items really, so it's okay to gate them through different ways.What wasn't so okay was to lock the legendary armor behind one game type (raid), but this has been fixed, and rightfully so.

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

@STIHL.2489 said:But see that exposes why the whole 'risk-reward' thing, has always been and always will be, a farce.

Yeah every game ever made is a lie and does not exist.

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

• Second, you want to make it accessible for those who don't possess skill X to access it through grind, ok. What about the other way around?

There are no other ways around. You just get everything unlocked on your first login. Game has no rewards, content is played for the sake of playing it. Game explodes in popularity and becomes new wow.

[maddoctor.2738]

@STIHL.2489 said:By your own admission, You don't really want to balance risk-reward of mobs, you just want more loot to drop. Look at what you are saying "Nope... Don't make them easier, which would balance risk-reward, just give me more loot, and I'll pretend to enjoy it" .. because you know.. I like money.

I don't know what you are on about here. Those Legendary mobs are content for the huge blob that is gathering inside the lab. In fact it's the only content in the lab that a large blob can fight while staying awake because the rest of the lab content is for morons that want to afk farm. And what you want is to make those bosses, the ONLY content in the lab that is for groups, to be doable by solo/duo players... take away the only content that is for big groups in the lab for what reason?

That's a backwards way of balancing reward/risk but I guess all you want is to lower the difficulty of everything so you get access to easy loots because from what you type you are one of those players who is here just for the loot and doesn't give a damn about actually playing the game while getting it. Yeah nerf everything so the trash can afk and get the loot too... nice argument

[STIHL.2489]

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:But see that exposes why the whole 'risk-reward' thing, has always been and always will be, a farce.

Yeah every game ever made is a lie and does not exist.

I ain't gonna sugar coat this, so... yah. Really, go read over some old EQ forum threads, stuff that happened 17 years ago. You can read all the back then elitist fussing that 16 hour rare spawns and kill stealing were good for the game because they made the content challenging and gear worthwhile.

Now look at us.. playing a game where everyone gets a trophy, talking about wanting hard content. Hilarious!

Well lucky for you, your side never wins this, so you are fortunate enough to play a game that is as rewarding as GW2.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:First, people need to realize that a skin gated behind a specific skill (fractal CM, raid boss, whatever really) serves as proof of victory, just like a medal would IRL. Yes it's got everything to do with showing off, but that's how games like that are. You show off your skins because you're proud of your design, you show off your titles, and in the same way, you show off your skill at a particular activity.

Again, I recognize that a skin can serve as a medal, but reject the idea that it should, because whether a skin serves as a medal or not, it also serves as a skin, and players can reasonably want it purely for the "skin" properties and not at all care about the "medal" properties. Therefore, skins should be skins, and medals should be medals, combining the two benefits no one.

Second, you want to make it accessible for those who don't possess skill X to access it through grind, ok. What about the other way around? Do you give out all the skins in "skilled" content? How do you do that?

You could. I mean the simplest way would just be to allow skill to reduce the amount of grind necessary in certain cases. Ultimately though, grind is much less of a barrier than skill, because anyone can grind, not everyone can skill.

What wasn't so okay was to lock the legendary armor behind one game type (raid), but this has been fixed, and rightfully so.

When? I haven't heard anything about that. Last I heard, the only way to get legendary armor was via raid, but you could also get skinless armors through PvP. There were still no ways to earn them through PvE, or to get the skins outside of raids, both of which still need addressing.

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:There are no other ways around. You just get everything unlocked on your first login. Game has no rewards, content is played for the sake of playing it. Game explodes in popularity and becomes new wow.

Strawman is strawman.

The point is, you want to reward player engagement with the product, but you want to be flexible as to the method of engagement, because different players are engaged in different ways, and you want to have all of these players feel that they can meaningfully progress toward their goals.

@maddoctor.2738 said:I don't know what you are on about here. Those Legendary mobs are content for the huge blob that is gathering inside the lab. In fact it's the only content in the lab that a large blob can fight while staying awake because the rest of the lab content is for morons that want to afk farm. And what you want is to make those bosses, the ONLY content in the lab that is for groups, to be doable by solo/duo players... take away the only content that is for big groups in the lab for what reason?

I don't have any real problem with the Lab in its current form, I just LFG a decent sized zerg, but I could see an argument to be made that the Horror is poor design in that he chases around the maze, making the entire thing dangerous, which would be disruptive to tiny-group casual play. If he were more stationary, and kept out of the way of the rest of the content, then a small group could reasonably farm the lab all day, either not opening the boss doors or just avoiding their corners of the map while still being able to hit everything else. I don't see that as a necessary change, but I do see the value in it.

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:I don't know what you are on about here. Those Legendary mobs are content for the huge blob that is gathering inside the lab.

What huge blob..? 90% of the time I am solo or duo in lab, and even when there is a tag, it's often just to kill the bosses, as doing anything else with the same number of people it takes to drop the lich is painful overkill, and not fun, and their frequency is way to high for them to be classified as a "rare spawn" like a world boss would be.

take away the only content that is for big groups in the lab for what reason?

What is the value of them to start with? As you so well put, Everything else is a Sleepwalking AFK Event (IE: You are dead weight and only contribute to scaling.. THANKS!). Seems really out of place to put boss's like that in a maze like zone that otherwise caters to the solo/small team play style. If they scaled them down, they would fit in better with the rest of the content, and be more fun.

But why let making content make sense and be fun get in the way of your desire for Moar Lootz!