Optimal Boonripping Spreadsheet

[Zikory.6871]

15 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Jalis Roads can be used twice while in Jalis. Once you hit Jalis roads the second time, you swap into Mallyx to do resistance stuff. By the time stability wears off in Mallyx, Jalis will be off cooldown and you can swap into Jalis to cast Jalis roads again.

 

Because Jalis Roads has a pulse duration, you will always have stability. On the last pulse which is on the 6th second, it will give you a boon that lasts for 6 seconds, meaning it can potentially give you 2 seconds of spillover time from the time you used Jalis roads before swapping Legends. So typically you'll have at least 10 people with Stability at any given moment.

 

You can do the same thing without alacrity too, and still get the same effect. However on that build I also used the alacrity to maintain it on 40 people at a time. It pulses on 10 people, and each pulse lasts for some time. I don't remember how long...but ya that was another aspect of that build. In addition, Resistance was also used in the same way. It lasted for like 6 seconds or something and because i could spam it 3 or 4 times in mallyx, i could keep resistence on 10 - 20 people at a time, in the time I was in mallyx.

 

Traditionally you use the build in a standard 5 man party comp...it's just that your boons ... rather than being distributed through out the squad, are instead just continuously stacked only on your 5 party members. You can imagine that if you are in a fight, and the fight only lasts for a very short period of time, it's more important to have the coverage then it is to just stack the kitten out of the boons on a small pool of players...especially when those boon stacks are getting stripped. 

I still think its dumb if it works and just play Firebrand but I'm going to test this. 

How many people in the squad would you say this works on? 

How much movement is allowed by the squad? 

What kind of placement should I aim for? Can the whole squad stack on one spot, like really tight? Or do they need to spread out?

I don't really care about the resistance or alacrity. Just interesting in Road and replacing Firebrands. 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

1 hour ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Hes renegade so no true nature but fair. Have fun standing in place for 6s...

Trying to shove a squad peg into a round hole isn't changing the meta. 

oh my bad. bruh the stab lasts for 6 sec, you only need 2-3 stax and you're good and no need to stand in it. its not like road is main stab or anything either. but whatever! idc really was jus sayin.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

46 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Jalis Roads can be used twice while in Jalis. Once you hit Jalis roads the second time, you swap into Mallyx to do resistance stuff. By the time stability wears off in Mallyx, Jalis will be off cooldown and you can swap into Jalis to cast Jalis roads again.

 

Because Jalis Roads has a pulse duration, you will always have stability. On the last pulse which is on the 6th second, it will give you a boon that lasts for 6 seconds, meaning it can potentially give you 2 seconds of spillover time from the time you used Jalis roads before swapping Legends. So typically you'll have at least 10 (at most 30) people with Stability at any given moment.

 

You can do the same thing without alacrity too, and still get the same effect. However on that build I also used the alacrity to maintain it on 40 people at a time. It pulses on 10 people, and each pulse lasts for some time. I don't remember how long...but ya that was another aspect of that build. In addition, Resistance was also used in the same way. It lasted for like 6 seconds or something and because i could spam it 3 or 4 times in mallyx, i could keep resistence on 10 - 20 people at a time, in the time I was in mallyx.

 

Traditionally you use the build in a standard 5 man party comp...it's just that your boons ... rather than being distributed through out the squad, are instead just continuously stacked only on your 5 party members. You can imagine that if you are in a fight, and the fight only lasts for a very short period of time, it's more important to have the coverage then it is to just stack the kitten out of the boons on a small pool of players...especially when those boon stacks are getting stripped. 

the road pulses on 5 ppl dude, and no theres no way you're maintaining stab on that many ppl. whatever tho.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

40 minutes ago, Zikory.6871 said:

I still think its dumb if it works and just play Firebrand but I'm going to test this. 

How many people in the squad would you say this works on? 

How much movement is allowed by the squad? 

What kind of placement should I aim for? Can the whole squad stack on one spot, like really tight? Or do they need to spread out?

I don't really care about the resistance or alacrity. Just interesting in Road and replacing Firebrands. 

 

The theorycraft behind how it works, is based on the behavior of pulsing abilities that have a duration.

 

The best way to think about it is by thinking about a skill like Soothing Mist. Soothing mist is a buff that lasts for 9 seconds on a particular ally. However, this buff is pulsed out from the source elementalist every 3 seconds. So the 5 closest players to the elementalist will recieve this pulsing buff every 3 seconds. Because it lasts for 9 seconds, the buff simply refreshes on these players every time every 3 seconds. Since 5 man party orientation, prioritizes the 5 players in your party over those in your squad, then Soothing Mist will only apply to those 5 party members...so long as those party members are in 600 range of you (the radius of Soothing Mist)

 

Now...you can imagine that, if you have 5 players next to you for 3 seconds, and then you swap those 5 players out for a new set of 5 players on the next 3 seconds, and then again you swap those 5 players with new set of 5 players 3 seconds after that...Then at any given time, there will be 15 players with the soothing mist buff concurrently. The buff only lasts for 9 seconds...so upon the 4th pulse, the soothing mist that went out on the first pulse is dropped since it's duration has run out.

 

So to repeat again, Soothing Mist can effect up to 15 people at any concurrent moment in time, with a 9 second buff. (it's actually 13, but this is specific only to Soothing Mist...for the sake of this example I'm just keeping it as 15)

 

The only way you can take advantage of this effect, is by relying on a behavior in which the targets of your pulsing buff are constantly changing upon every pulse that is sent out from you. This is pretty easy procedure, because basically when players move in WvW, the proximity they are from you is what determines who gets the buff. In essence, in a squad of 25 players, you will almost always have new players effected by your buffs. The caveat is that you can't be in a sub-party squad orientation...again because when you are in a party, buffs will prioritize your party and not other players.

 

Soothing Mist is just one of a number of skills that pulse, which have a duration. Jalis Roads is one of them. If the duration of Stability lasts for 6 seconds (a revenant that has 100% boon duration) then it's 6 x 5 / 1 = 30  (the duration of the buff times the number of targets it effects per pulse divided by the interval of the pulse, will give you the total number of targets it can potentially effect concurrently) For Soothing Mist it's 9 x 5 / 3 = 15.

 

Other skills that share this pulsing nature include Assassin's Presence (15 allies) Glint Buffs like Facet of Light (15 targets) and Warrior Banners (I think this is like 10 targets now or something I don't remember)

 

But this is just the surface for the potential of this behaviour. It really has to do with the nature of Target Cap in the game, and how allied target caps are treated as equivalently as enemy target caps...except subgrouping a squad purposefully changes the behavior to reduce target cap overlapping on allies, which typically makes skills stack on already existing players, rather than spreading the behavior of those skills out. This is one reason why the Rune of Rock or whatever it was called...the rune that granted a pet or something...worked in the past and was nerfed. It takes the enemy target caps, and spreads out their targets statistically. So an enemy zerg of 80 people, if they each had a pet, is basically a zerg of 160 people. If you have a skill that targets 5 players and it pulses 5 times, you are going to statistically hit the same players less often...and this lowers damage output.

 

It's quiet a lot of information, but ya I hope that was helpful.

Edited July 9, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Zikory.6871]

19 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

oh my bad. bruh the stab lasts for 6 sec, you only need 2-3 stax and you're good and no need to stand in it. its not like road is main stab or anything either. but whatever! idc really was jus sayin.

Well per the first post, the reason they were testing this was because they had no firebrands so it was "main stab".

And with the wall here. Each pulse gives 1 stab / 5 people random people. 2nd pulse gives 1 stab / 5 random people and so on since you aren't in a party so its prioritizing the squad as a whole rather then the 5 party members. So yes, you would need to stand on it while you wait your turn for stab stacks. Its not new info but it is interesting. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 7/8/2021 at 11:01 PM, Zikory.6871 said:

Well per the first post, the reason they were testing this was because they had no firebrands so it was "main stab".

And with the wall here. Each pulse gives 1 stab / 5 people random people. 2nd pulse gives 1 stab / 5 random people and so on since you aren't in a party so its prioritizing the squad as a whole rather then the 5 party members. So yes, you would need to stand on it while you wait your turn for stab stacks. Its not new info but it is interesting. 

 

Right pretty much. It's not new info, as they follow some of these procedures in PVE.

 

With Jalis roads, you're gonna be at the mercy of the road like any AOE skill so it's best to use your judgement in how to place it during a fight so that allies are utilizing it. If the fight is highly mobile you're gonna be less effective, then if it was more stationary. Also the requisite for standing in it isn't required, so long as a new set of 5 players pass over the road at every interval is all that's required. 

 

Another thing to mention, for why people use Jalis roads, is because it also effects up to 30 enemies too. So it can apply up to 30 applications of weakness, which is a very strong defensive debuff, and it also does decent damage, and you'll often see this used as a spike from revenants. It's also very pretty.

Edited July 10, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Zikory.6871]

11 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

snip

 

It's quiet a lot of information, but ya I hope that was helpful.

The biggest issue imo is that you have very little control over where those buffs are going. There is no way to really make sure everyone in the squad gets those buffs. Same reason way 6 man parties aren't good. Or like half your squad having scrappers kitten out super speed while the other half gets yelled at for being in the tail. 

I'll give you it being a interesting idea to make the best of the situation you posted. But you have to see why this isn't common, why when a Firebrand Stabs and cleanses better, aegis and quickness is better then alacrity. Ima give it a solid test. 

ok sorry for the derail, banish enchantment is broken. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

39 minutes ago, Zikory.6871 said:

The biggest issue imo is that you have very little control over where those buffs are going. There is no way to really make sure everyone in the squad gets those buffs. Same reason way 6 man parties aren't good. Or like half your squad having scrappers kitten out super speed while the other half gets yelled at for being in the tail. 

I'll give you it being a interesting idea to make the best of the situation you posted. But you have to see why this isn't common, why when a Firebrand Stabs and cleanses better, aegis and quickness is better then alacrity. Ima give it a solid test. 

ok sorry for the derail, banish enchantment is broken. 

 

Like you said yes, a lot of Guardian and Scrapper skills don't have many pulsing options that can utilize the effect, and so there's very good reasons to have them in 5 man sub-parties, like is traditional. Other builds like Elementalist and Revenant rely on their effects pulsing to more than 5 targets, which is why the 5 man substructure hurts those builds more. Both squad structures have legitimate reasons for being organized in their respective ways, and it all depends on what you have as a comp. In that token, there are comps solely based on these effects and they exhibit their own advantages and disadvantages. The best way to describe their differences is that the behavior is statistical in nature, like Rune of the Rock Dog example, which provide a statistical advantage over your opponent rather than a strategic one. 

 

As an example, you can imagine using this kind of logic for how certain skills might come into the play in your testing. Just like Rune of the Rock Dog or whatever it's called, you can experiment around with your elementalists taking Glyph of Lesser Elementals and Reapers with Rise...to simulate the same behaviour. I also have a Condition Immunity setup that utilizes the same mechanic, where you can effectively make your squad permanently immune to all conditions, via Facet of Nature - Demon.

 

Quote

ok sorry for the derail, banish enchantment is broken. 

 

Indeed it is 🙂 muhaha. It might be one of the best boon removals in the game. You can perhaps imagine a build that uses Banish Enchantment and Brutality together. So long as your squad has quickness, you have a guaranteed Stability strip (ahem and it's un-blockable teheee)

 

Edit: Brutality only removes a stack of stability so ehh... Guess I should give some more thought on that build idea.

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Stand The Wall.6987]

1 hour ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Well per the first post, the reason they were testing this was because they had no firebrands so it was "main stab".

oh, k. well then, i'll just shut up. loller.