What Happens to the Dwarves?

[Fueki.4753]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Jormag, for instance, had the whole 'I never force anything on anyone who didn't ask for it' schtick, preferring minions who came to them willingly. But Svanir shamans could still perform forced corruption, it just didn't happen simply as a consequence of being (or dying) too close to the dragon as happened with Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan. Similarly, Primordus preferred making his own minions, but didn't seem to complain when they corrupted themselves.

Withholding the full truth and only giving out trickles of information was Jormag's tool.

In this case it's merely that Jormag itself doesn't corrupt unwilling entities. Jormag never said anything about corruption via others.

 

In case of the Stone Summit, we don't even know if they entering the Feedback loop from Kralkatorrik that Primordus used.

For all we know, the Destroyers could have just joined up with them because they sensed tiny bits of Primordus' magic in the Dwarves and that there is no further connection beyond that.

[Teratus.2859]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

GW1 implied that oni were created by Kanaxai in some fashion, possibly created from twisted humans (similar to Margonites).

It wasn't so much implied but more of a in universe theory that some Canthans had about their origins.

Officially in game and out to my knowledge there has been no solid confirmation of where they really came from, pretty much the only thing that we do know about them is that they are classified as Demonic entities and they are lead/controlled by Kanaxai who also commands Nightmares and Human in his army as well.

This makes them a very curious mystery as well as Kanaxai himself since the ground rule for all Demons in the Guildwars universe is that they are either all born from and reside in the mists.. (which is where most Demons in this universe come from) or they are people who have been turned into Demons through the power of an extremely powerful magical entity such as a God like Abaddon, who turned his followers into Margonites.
 
Kanaxai and the Oni are rare exceptions to this as nobody knows for sure where they came from and there is nothing in universe to tie them to the mists nor any powerful magical being who could have created them.
They seem completely isolated from any known Demon origins.
Frankly if I were a member of the Durmand Priory (which my main character actually is hehe) this is a particular mystery that I would love to investigate after the Elder Dragons have been dealt with and my main character can finally go back to living his own life ^^

Which actually leads me to think that one really cool thing Anet could do after End of Dragons is create new content specifically focused around the 3 factions we have to join during the personal story.
It would be amazing to finally go and do what those factions are supposed to do.
I joined the Priory in fact because I was told I would get to explore the world and uncover ruins and study lore etc but we never really got to do any of that as a member of that order lol.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

It wasn't so much implied but more of a in universe theory that some Canthans had about their origins.

Officially in game and out to my knowledge there has been no solid confirmation of where they really came from, pretty much the only thing that we do know about them is that they are classified as Demonic entities and they are lead/controlled by Kanaxai who also commands Nightmares and Human in his army as well.
 

The existence of that theory IS an implication. The presence of oni and reavers in the Deep is also consistent with the theory, even if not explicitly proven. If we had been told or shown that the theory was true, then I wouldn't have said 'implied'.

 

However, what has been explicitly shown is that at least some oni were linked to Kanaxai somehow. Kanaxai also seems like he was possibly at a similar level to Glint, having a lair filled with aspects of himself that inflicted unpleasant effects on enemies. We don't really have a lower bound on how powerful a demon needs to be to turn sapient mortals into demons, but having a power level comparable to Glint is probably sufficient.

 

We haven't been told explicitly that the theory is true, but it is consistent with the evidence we have.

[Teratus.2859]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The existence of that theory IS an implication. The presence of oni and reavers in the Deep is also consistent with the theory, even if not explicitly proven. If we had been told or shown that the theory was true, then I wouldn't have said 'implied'.

I think you mean Outcasts
The Reavers were normal Luxons who originally mined in the Jade sea, who originally found Kanaxai etc.
The ones who went mad and joined Kanaxai became known as Outcasts.

The problem with the Outcasts is that there are no signs of physical corruption into Oni to support the theory.
Being part of Kanaxai's army isn't really evidence since we know the Outcasts serve him anyway, naturally they would be expected to be in the deep with him and his army of Oni and Nightmares.

Plus if he was transforming them into Oni then it makes even less sense there would be many Outcasts down there, specially if the transformation was fast.
And if it wasn't then surely we would have seen Outcasts who were in the process of becoming Oni, being semi transformed etc.. but none have ever been seen.
 

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

However, what has been explicitly shown is that at least some oni were linked to Kanaxai somehow. Kanaxai also seems like he was possibly at a similar level to Glint, having a lair filled with aspects of himself that inflicted unpleasant effects on enemies. We don't really have a lower bound on how powerful a demon needs to be to turn sapient mortals into demons, but having a power level comparable to Glint is probably sufficient.

Aye that has been shown, it's quite possible that Kanaxai commands.. or at least commanded all the Oni in Cantha, which is the only place on Tyria we know they have appeared.
But the problem is their origins are just as much a mystery as Kanaxai's are.. we just don't know where they came from.
However the Oni have been known to humans longer than Kanaxai was so there are also old theories that the Oni did originate from the mists somewhere like most other Demons.
Which if that were true it likely means Kanaxai summoned them onto Tyria somehow rather than creating them.. (which is also something players can do in Gw1 with a certain summon stone)

It's true that we also don't know how powerful Kanaxai really was and Glint is maybe a fair comparrison to make.
However there are no instances that I can think of where Glint has physically transformed anyone in Gw1, nor any indication that she had that ability.
The only evidence to suggest she could do that would be Aurine in Gw2 and what she did to Caithe but then we have to consider that Aurine was possibly a lot more powerful than Glint ever was at that point in time.
But that's also something we can't really confirm or deny either.

[draxynnic.3719]

Given that Glint used to be Kralkatorrik's top champion, and dragon minions far lower on the totem pole are capable of transformation, I'm inclined to think that it's likely that Glint chose not to transform sapients rather than being unable to. It's worth noting that her lair in GW1 was guarded by crystalline creatures not seen elsewhere, though, so it's entirely likely she has some means of either transforming creatures or creating new constructs.

 

With respect to the oni-outcast connection - expecting there to be physical corruption is making assumptions about how the transformation happens. Maybe, for instance, it's fairly rapid once the transformee reaches a certain threshold. Or maybe there is some form of bottleneck - consider, for instance, the Frost Legion conversion machine has a fairly rapid transformation per individual, but it can't transform an entire army at once. Kanaxai might be similarly limited. Or maybe he just preferred to have a mix of oni and regular humans.

 

Not to mention that that Outcasts cover most of their bodies except for their eyes and hands, which could be covering some physical changes happening underneath. Consider, for instance, that Varesh went from being human with a few physical changes that could be covered under clothing to full on Margonite in a matter of moments. Both daemonic apotheosis and dragon corruption seem to be pretty quick processes to complete once the entity triggering the transformation makes the investment.

Now, it's possible that it'll turn out to be something different, but it's also entirely possible that the explanation given is the correct one, and in ArenaNet's fashion at the time, they chose to leave it at that rather than ramming the answer down our throats.

Edited September 26, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[Fueki.4753]

39 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Consider, for instance, that Varesh went from being human with a few physical changes that could be covered under clothing to full on Margonite in a matter of moments.

Given that Varesh already had the Margonites' extra eyes on her forehead (the four bulges) when we fought her, it's quite possible that she already has been mostly transformed and simply was just covered in human skin. For all we know, her hands and face might even have been the only pieces of human skin left, since everything else was covered in clothes.

Thus, we have no way of telling whether Varesh was transforming quickly in that moment or if she underwent a slow transformation during her entire journey (and possibly even before the story of Nightfall began).

Edited September 26, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Given that Varesh already had the Margonites' extra eyes on her forehead (the four bulges) when we fought her, it's quite possible that she already has been mostly transformed and simply was just covered in human skin. For all we know, her hands and face might even have been the only pieces of human skin left, since everything else was covered in clothes.

Thus, we have no way of telling whether Varesh was transforming quickly in that moment or if she underwent a slow transformation during her entire journey (and possibly even before the story of Nightfall began).

True, but the point I'm making is that Outcasts also have most of their bodies covered, so they could also be partially transformed and if the transformation didn't reach their arms or eyes, we wouldn't be able to see.

 

Granted, NPCs would probably know if Outcasts on the surface were heavily mutated, but in the Deep? I don't think the PCs are pausing to undress the Outcasts they kill while going for Kanaxai.