PvE Meta Expectations for Holosmith

What are your expectations for Holosmith in the PvE meta?

Take the current condition build and replace Tools with Holo, that's a dps increase even with no other changes so that's the one I'm most sure of.

Where's the option for both meta power and Condi?

@Adamantium.3682 said:Take the current condition build and replace Tools with Holo, that's a dps increase even with no other changes so that's the one I'm most sure of.

Where's the option for both meta power and Condi?

Shit, I should have put that in as an option, but the edit locking on these new forums means that it's too late for that. =/

That's okay I voted for condi because that's a lock as far as I'm concerned :sunglasses: though I would have voted for both if I could.

Good chance we see a good power build as well. May even overtake condi but I would be surprised.

@Adamantium.3682 said:That's okay I voted for condi because that's a lock as far as I'm concerned :sunglasses: though I would have voted for both if I could.

Good chance we see a good power build as well. May even overtake condi but I would be surprised.

Fair enough. I actually put my vote in that it won't be in the meta at all and here's why:

1) I'm using a relatively strict definition of meta, particularly for raids.2) As it stands now, engis arguably aren't part of the meta since the condi nerf.3) Competition for the meta will get tougher with other additional elite specs being added.4) I don't think there's enough to really push condi much farther with holosmith.

I don't expect engi to outright shunned by most groups or anything so extreme. Just think that we'll be in the "good, but not great" area still and that the most competitive groups will prefer something else.

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@Adamantium.3682 said:That's okay I voted for condi because that's a lock as far as I'm concerned :sunglasses: though I would have voted for both if I could.

Good chance we see a good power build as well. May even overtake condi but I would be surprised.

Oh that's cool it shows what you voted for in your posts :+1:

I have to disagree with all 4 of those points.

1. I don't think that's how most people use the term meta. If you're talking only the record setting world firsts, then I guess this is a different conversation that I don't really have anything to add to. At that point we're not even talking 1 or 2% of groups... but 1 or 2 groups period.
2. Disagree again, Pinpoint Distribution alone is worth taking an Engi that benchmarks at >95% of the highest benchmark.
3. Yeah but I also include Holosmith in that shakeup. Every other profession isn't getting something Engi isn't getting, and I would argue Holosmith is one of the only ones that's pure damage focused.
4. Tools really doesn't add much to condi builds. Holosmith has access to burning and harder hitting skills in PF that will improve the rotation.

"Good but not great" has not at all been my experience raiding and Fractaling with my Engi. Arcdps, qT benchmarks, and other players' opinions seem to back that up.

With the top 4-6ish benchmarked builds it's going to come down to player skill 90% of the time. It's not as if every group is only taking condi Tempest for damage because it ranks #1 and nothing else is meta.

Well, I haven't raided in quite a while, so my opinion is based largely on what I've read since I started my hiatus. Up until the August patch, I would have agreed, but the condi nerf seems to have really knocked it down a peg and condi thieves/condi warriors are performing pretty well.

All that being said, I'm being very conservative in my outlook, but I'd be happy to be wrong.

Saddens me because i do not see holosmith being particularly desirable for group play in WvW either.

I will still be able to kill back warg before it reaches the first mines. I will still add burning to epi. I will still do minimum 20k dps on power without pushing buttons.

I will still be able to reset a fight against a thief while roaming. I will still be able to cover a long 9 burn stack with 4-5 condis, some of which continuously refresh.

I will still be able to run circles around 2 people on far without dying.

that's why I'll still be in the meta.

@insanemaniac.2456 said:I will still be able to kill back warg before it reaches the first mines. I will still add burning to epi. I will still do minimum 20k dps on power without pushing buttons.

I will still be able to reset a fight against a thief while roaming. I will still be able to cover a long 9 burn stack with 4-5 condis, some of which continuously refresh.

I will still be able to run circles around 2 people on far without dying.

that's why I'll still be in the meta.

I think you confused "PvE" with "PvP" and "Meta" with "Viable". =P

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@insanemaniac.2456 said:I will still be able to kill back warg before it reaches the first mines. I will still add burning to epi. I will still do minimum 20k dps on power without pushing buttons.

I will still be able to reset a fight against a thief while roaming. I will still be able to cover a long 9 burn stack with 4-5 condis, some of which continuously refresh.

I will still be able to run circles around 2 people on far without dying.

that's why I'll still be in the meta.

I hit all 3 modes.

Holosmith looks like another pvp spec and a full damage spec at that. Engineer has always been pretty mediocre but i always considered engineer to be a dps class and nothing else

I voted that engineet will not be meta. At most in wvw they can be strong roamers and in pve all damage but i think that as good as engineer will get.

There wasn't an option to vote for BOTH builds being in the meta, otherwise I would've picked that.Holosmith is going to be a DPS increase to the existing condi engi build, just replacing tools.A hybrid build is very unlikely, but I'll look into it.Power holosmith will likely camp sword (due to the auto chain resetting the 2 cooldown), and maintaining 50-150 heat. Photon forge skills have been fixed for PvE and do crazy high physical dps.

@Dahkeus.8243 said:

@Adamantium.3682 said:That's okay I voted for condi because that's a lock as far as I'm concerned :sunglasses: though I would have voted for both if I could.

Good chance we see a good power build as well. May even overtake condi but I would be surprised.

What?

Condi ele, thief, and warrior are top DPS. Condi revenant is also really good. You bring pinpoint distribution, which buffs all of those.

The only good power builds by comparison are dragonhunter and daredevil, and only dragonhunter competes with condi zerker/thief.

ATM it seems like holosmith will be a decent power build, but we know most viable engi build (even power) will have some condition damage. I think it will be highly likely we are going to be seeing builds that are similar to what we have now, a mixture of power and condition damage. We have too many great condition skills that it will be hard to imagine them not in a meta build even for holosmith.

Im putting my bet as getting a condi build with holosmith.

As Adamantium pointed out, our current condi build is great (and still great even after the nerfs, people are overrating the nerf-.)

So, Holosmith would fill all those spots where we would use a grenade aa, and make our current build even more complete.

I bet there will be a power version too, not sure how that one will be, thats why im putting my safe bet on condi.

If Condi Engi was a piano, then Condi Holo is one of those church organs with a second key layer on the top. I am looking forward to seeing exactly how people will bench Holo 3-X-3 for damage. I think Power has a shot though.

I spent some time at the testing golem and couldn't get a power build as high as I hoped. It confirmed my thoughts Condi will be the meta DPS build for Holo. I couldn't get past 31k. I'm usually a bit below what qT says is possible, but the rotation with PF is pretty locked in so I don't know how much more room there is. I'd like to see at least 35k to put it in the t1 dps level. Then again, that bar might be raised with the power creep. T1 dps might end up closer to 40k.

I know I can't get as high dps as possible, and qT benchmarks should be coming any day now to confirm. If those do confirm what I suspect I will be calling for Holo buffs. Even ignoring the broken builds right now (Firebrand, Weaver) Holo sustained direct damage is just not high enough given the type of spec it is and the risks and restrictions required to use it.

Condi > Power Holosmith.From what I've gathered, I suspect Photon Forge's 6 sec kit lockout is a DPS loss strictly for condi builds.And the Holosmith traitline is useless if you aren't actively engaging Photon Forge.Which leads me to believe that if Engi is at all in the meta, it will be with the Vanilla Condi build.

Power Holosmith might have had a shot at being competitive if the Photon Forge's unintended 20% extra dmg scaling in PvP was implemented in other game modes. But Instead Anet normalized the scaling across all game modes by simply nerfing Photon Forge skills' dmg by 20% in PvP.

I believe Engineers will be meta, but it will likely be as a DPS slot in a condi group because of Pinpoint Distribution.Power Holosmith might become a meta by being the highest DPS Power spec, but CEngi is the only engi build with some kind of unique selling point. Though Pinpoint Distribution is one of the weakest condi amping effects (and not simply venom effects like Sun Spirit, Justice, etc. but Grace of the Land and similar), it's still our selling point for PvE groups.

@HotHit.6783 said:I believe Engineers will be meta, but it will likely be as a DPS slot in a condi group because of Pinpoint Distribution.Power Holosmith might become a meta by being the highest DPS Power spec, but CEngi is the only engi build with some kind of unique selling point. Though Pinpoint Distribution is one of the weakest condi amping effects (and not simply venom effects like Sun Spirit, Justice, etc. but Grace of the Land and similar), it's still our selling point for PvE groups.

Power engi also uses pinpoint distribution because there is no other choice on that tier. You don't need fury or shorter rifle cds.Highest power spec is still elementalist by far. Holosmith is comparable to dragonhunter on small hitbox but way harder to play.Now is the time to be angry if they don't buff it hard. Second elite spec you can't use in pve because it lowers your dps.With the current state of guard and other op builds even 10 target cap on pinpoint wouldn't save us.

Holosmith concept was pure in your face damage but it gets outdamaged by support concepts like scourge and firebrand. Traits are a mess too. First tier lacks a non pvp power choice. Why does the ranged aa trait reduce your damage by 10%? It already generates more heat. Even if you could stay all the time in forge you would get outdamaged by some specs. Its that undertuned.I also don't like the easy might stack potential because they always use this as an excuse for low scalings. It should be hard and rewarding to stack 25 might solo and not press 1 button and stay above heat threshold.

@insanemaniac.2456 said:I will still be able to kill back warg before it reaches the first mines. I will still add burning to epi. I will still do minimum 20k dps on power without pushing buttons.

I will still be able to reset a fight against a thief while roaming. I will still be able to cover a long 9 burn stack with 4-5 condis, some of which continuously refresh.

I will still be able to run circles around 2 people on far without dying.

that's why I'll still be in the meta.

in light of the release being past us, im revising this to "engi is out of the meta for pve". better luck next balance pass. its a minimally offensively supportive dps spec that cant even match the dps of scourge, firebrand, renegade, or weaver. and probably soulbeast. or berserker, tempest (cuz you know weaver gonna get nerfed), and daredevil. wait which class did i miss... oh. chrono. well idk if mirage will get use cuz everyone gonna wanna chrono and engi certainly cant fill that niche.

yall might say "id take a good engi over a baddie ___ any day" but dude put that engi on a scourge or firebrand or prolly renegade or maybe weaver and at least the 1st 2 of those are almost brainless builds with more dps when played semi not brainlessly compared to kit engi and that engi player will be relieved that (s)he gets to take it easy. and im sure weaver gives you that nice piano feeling if you dont wanna go easy.

I've done some power holosmith tests, and assuming a reasonable number of condis + full infusions it seems to work out above 31k (though I cancel autos way too much). Condi holo should be at least as good as base engi at 34k last patch. So based on that I think either is easily viable if you assume a cutoff around 30k, but obviously won't compete with broken specs like firebrand until they nerf it.

Specific details on tests: got to 31.8k with 13 condis on target, but no ascended armour or stat infusions. I think dropping to 10 condis but maxing out gear would still be above 31k. Build was http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUnUUB9ZhVIDmYBcJjlRkCsWulAo/fH4F+7UWlWB-jhRBABmpEEPdAXt/o87hLAAlq/AwDAgUARMGA-e - I don't know if it can be optimised further.

EDIT: I just checked and regular power engi was at 31.4k last patch, so to compare: The holo build doesn't need to use dodges for dps (and so a bit easier rotation), has more cc and likely works out to slightly higher dps overall once qt optimises it. Still ultra-high on the aoe side.

Yeah I've been getting 31k with the power build myself. No food. Still not sure what the optimum build is, but so far, but right now I'm running Holosmith 1-2-2. I tried the overheat build, but it came out weaker in the long run.

I am noticing something, though. The utilities I've been using are Laser Disk, Photon Wall, and Rifle Turret. All three of them have damaging toolbelt skills with no cast time, but also Laser Disk and Photon Wall are DPS skills above 50 heat. The "something" is that doing the DPS rotation is actually pretty hard. You can do solid damage with the scrapper or vanilla engi by simply camping bomb kit and swapping over for blunderbuss/thunderclap. For the holosmith, you have to watch the two utilities, 3 toolbelt skills, the heat meter, and the weapon skills. My eyes can't handle all of that, and much to my dismay I may have killed several teammates due to social awkwardness in fractals today. To get the 31k DPS, I had to try several times because I kept flubbing the skills.

There are a lot of button presses going into doing damage, and you can't just opt for a simple but 95% effective rotation like you can do for vanilla engi/scrapper. I don't play condi engi because I can't do the rotation, and holosmith is heading toward that territory.

I would like to see the holosmith be a higher damaging but more selfish scrapper, in terms of it's skills. Currently sword, holosmith 1-4, and the utilities are all just silly ways of doing more damage. Instead, I'd like to see the damage of the spec concentrated into a fewer weapon and holoform skills, and have the other skills be more focused on providing different defensive utilities. The damage of the spec should probably be buffed overall.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Yeah I've been getting 31k with the power build myself. No food. Still not sure what the optimum build is, but so far, but right now I'm running Holosmith 1-2-2. I tried the overheat build, but it came out weaker in the long run.I'm curious what the build is btw, still trying to figure out what's optimal myself. Specifically I guess: Sword or rifle? and Explosives/Firearms/Tools? For me the damage boost from tools didn't work so well without bombs on dodge...

For what it's worth, the rotation I came up with is super simple imo, you just hit 3 and 4 on cooldown in photon forge (not interrupting the AA), after overheat you spam your high damage skills and switch to bombs. Then repeat when you cool down (throw in more blunderbuss/grenades if you have time). While you still have to cast exceed skills above 50%, that's at a really predictable time