Here's how I would nerf scourge:

Instead of making shade skills explode the entire area with instant unreactable damage, the shade skills do a wave of damage that starts in the center and expands outward. And the speed the wave moves is the same regardless of shade size, so it takes a lot longer for it to reach the edge of a big Sand Savant shade. How fast it is is up for debate, but slow enough to be reactable on the outer area of Sand Savant. Delayed AoEs in MOBAs tend to be about 0.6-0.7s, so I was thinking 0.7-1.0 sec to reach the edge of the big shade.

I like this because the main issue with scourge isn't the amount of damage (see: PvE) so much as how easy it is for the damage to land. This way is a nerf in a way that makes the class less faceroll. Comboing damage with disables or saving bursts for when your opponent is out of dodges or out of position is now more important, just like it is for every other class. And this way it's also a lot less dangerous to stand at the edge of the massive point-covering shade than it is to stand in the middle of it.

As an added bonus, it's much less of a nerf for the smaller shades, bringing some balance there, and it's not really a nerf at all for PvE (where scourge needs buffs if anything)

Oh also, I'd make the subsequent pulses of Desert Shroud beyond the first, visually much smaller. because they are a lot less dangerous than anything else coming from the shades, and you don't want important stuff hidden by constant desert shroud pulses. And the AoE barrier and condi clear on skills 2 and 3 should probably still be instant.

The wave idea is actually a pretty good idea to be honest. But they also need to give cast time to shade skills to make it feel more balanced and allow counterplay.The other way of balancing scourge is to nerf its dps but giving it more utility or survival, or even both. Firebrand carries the class hard in that regard.

the idea behind having it be a wave instead of giving it a cast time is to allow it to still be instant cast while still giving it counterplay. Giving it a cast time would instantly drop scourge to garbage tier. Necro has always been able to enter shroud while CC'd. If scourge can't do that then it's pretty much toast. would need some extreme changes to make up for it

The desert shroud should say instant cast obviously. But at least the f2 should have a cast time like 0,5s. Let's face it.... scourge is broken right now. It might seem balanced because it's so squishy without firebrand support, but it's still not a good type of balance. It needs more nerfs than just that and this is coming from a scourge main.

It would also be helpful if the shade change color (or flickers with different colors) when F-skills are activated, to give players a visual cue, in addition to the casting time. Different color for each F-skill would be helpful also. I can't counterplay something with little to no information.

It should give a small pre cast at the middle before it actually expand from center.

I know this is a pvp post, but scourge is too strong in wvw also. really, nothing pre pof can beat it at the same skill level. and a scourge can walk past a firebrand and anhilate it with one ring attached to its body. Scourge is too easy to play and should be nerfed to support.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:It would also be helpful if the shade change color (or flickers with different colors) when F-skills are activated, to give players a visual cue, in addition to the casting time. Different color for each F-skill would be helpful also. I can't counterplay something with little to no information.

The current visuals (or rather lack thereof) certainly feel inadequate to say the least.

At the very least F2 needs a longer cooldown.

That shit skill is just flat out one of the most broken things that has ever existed in GW. Even without any traits an AoE condi conversion on a 5s cooldown requiring zero investment would be good. The fact that it can be traited to also serve as a massive AoE corrupt bomb on top of that is just a joke.

Instant cast? Check.Aoe? Check.Unavoidable due to no animation? Check.Can still be used while CCed? Check.Mindlessly spammable due to low CD? Check.Not punished for fucking it up? Check.

It's like the balance team got together and asked "How can we make the most scrub-pandering skill possible?" and spat this shit out.

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

It's like the balance team got together and asked "How can we make the most scrub-pandering skill possible?" and spat this kitten out.

Balance clowns, team makes it sound like they actually have a clue.

Quadruple the size of cap points will also work.

a class with no mobility , low survivability ( barriers nerf too much) , that does average damage , who can be counter played from every mobile and range class or any firebrand druid that relies on support to be alive and you cry about it for a skill.

On top of that scourges are usless in pve so overall class aint that great as you make it to be.

So lets say you nerf that whats next for scourge , there isn't much for it isn't it.

Meanwhile 1 shotting builds like mesmers rogues go rampant but that's fine I guess

maybe create a anti condi class....... o wait....

@Vag.5682 said:a class with no mobility , low survivability ( barriers nerf too much) , that does average damage , who can be counter played from every mobile and range class or any firebrand druid that relies on support to be alive and you cry about it for a skill.

On top of that scourges are usless in pve so overall class aint that great as you make it to be.

So lets say you nerf that whats next for scourge , there isn't much for it isn't it.

Meanwhile 1 shotting builds like mesmers rogues go rampant but that's fine I guess

People, in general, do not like change. They refuse to adapt and change their uber build to accomodate changes Anet makes. I use to think scourge was impossible to beat as a melee class (I usually play a power reaper main). I changed my build around so i wasnt auto-generating boons, and with no boons to corrupt, I cut the scourges effectiveness against me dramatically. I can now charge in and pressure them. Before, I'd charge in, they corrupt my might stacks to perma weakness (making my dps pitiful) along with my other boons to put 6+ condis on me and i'd implode in secs.. After some tweaking of my build, now this fight is a bit more even. This is from a roaming WvW perspective though.

People, in general, do not like change. They refuse to adapt and change their uber build to accomodate changes Anet makes. I use to think scourge was impossible to beat as a melee class (I usually play a power reaper main). I changed my build around so i wasnt auto-generating boons, and with no boons to corrupt, I cut the scourges effectiveness against me dramatically. I can now charge in and pressure them. Before, I'd charge in, they corrupt my might stacks to perma weakness (making my dps pitiful) along with my other boons to put 6+ condis on me and i'd implode in secs.. After some tweaking of my build, now this fight is a bit more even. This is from a roaming WvW perspective though.

theres no denying that in premade group with support scourges is strong but same is with warrior , mesmer , thief. Solo as scourge or with random group is pitiful. Maybe it needs some tweaking but more flat out nerfs will destroy the class

Reduce the Area that the AoE skills effect. Done.

Didn't read anything other then the title.

@Ragmon.6350 said:Reduce the Area that the AoE skills effect.

This.

@Vag.5682 said:

People, in general, do not like change. They refuse to adapt and change their uber build to accomodate changes Anet makes. I use to think scourge was impossible to beat as a melee class (I usually play a power reaper main). I changed my build around so i wasnt auto-generating boons, and with no boons to corrupt, I cut the scourges effectiveness against me dramatically. I can now charge in and pressure them. Before, I'd charge in, they corrupt my might stacks to perma weakness (making my dps pitiful) along with my other boons to put 6+ condis on me and i'd implode in secs.. After some tweaking of my build, now this fight is a bit more even. This is from a roaming WvW perspective though.

It's about the same in pvp.

And yeah, I feel like scourge is still a necro. With much of the same class issues every necro has. I don't run scurge myself, and as much as i wan't to kitten on them at times, I don't think they are really too far out of line as well.

In spvp in my opinion scourge is strong but you can counter it. For example when i meet 2 scourge in opponent team i switch to power mirage from condi one. With range pressure and mobility it is killable ... ( for the most i use gs and avoid to come near him ) . In wvw it is completely different instead becouse the fight is not "around" a point so scourge aoe are really really op expecially in group fights

@PierPiero.9142 said:In spvp in my opinion scourge is strong but you can counter it. For example when i meet 2 scourge in opponent team i switch to power mirage from condi one. With range pressure and mobility it is killable ... ( for the most i use gs and avoid to come near him ) .

I think the point is that a single spec shouldn't entirely negate the use of melee and require ranged power damage.

A single spec can counter a specific playstile, expecially if all the others playstile counter it. There's a large amount of ranged builds and every class can use a ranged weapon to kite and kill a scourge still if it's not it's main damage weapon. And other builds have enough condi clean/resistance to fight a scourge anyway (warrior).In the past there was a large amount of builds able to totally counter a specific playstyle. For example, eles countered All the condition builds of the game and engi countered All the direct damage builds of this game. Other builds was able to decap and spam CC (frequently with low/mid damage but a big effect on the match making the team work easier), making all the builds with low stability useless.

If a build can kill a large amount of builds but is also countered by a large amount of builds there's no need to nerf it.The scourge is strong and might need a little nerf in the AoE range but out of that it's killed by all the builds able to spam damage from range (ranger, mesmer, thief for example).

Anyway, as it is in more or less every MMORPG game, range>melee, expecially in PvP. There's some exeptions if the class/build have high mobility or strong defensive skills (like thief and warrior), but in all the other situations, range is better than melee. Is easier to inflict damage, you start to hit first and have a range to use to flee and use the terrain as an advantage.

@Silv.9207 said:A single spec can counter a specific playstile, expecially if all the others playstile counter it. There's a large amount of ranged builds and every class can use a ranged weapon to kite and kill a scourge still if it's not it's main damage weapon. And other builds have enough condi clean/resistance to fight a scourge anyway (warrior).In the past there was a large amount of builds able to totally counter a specific playstyle. For example, eles countered All the condition builds of the game and engi countered All the direct damage builds of this game. Other builds was able to decap and spam CC (frequently with low/mid damage but a big effect on the match making the team work easier), making all the builds with low stability useless.

If a build can kill a large amount of builds but is also countered by a large amount of builds there's no need to nerf it.The scourge is strong and might need a little nerf in the AoE range but out of that it's killed by all the builds able to spam damage from range (ranger, mesmer, thief for example).

Anyway, as it is in more or less every MMORPG game, range>melee, expecially in PvP. There's some exeptions if the class/build have high mobility or strong defensive skills (like thief and warrior), but in all the other situations, range is better than melee. Is easier to inflict damage, you start to hit first and have a range to use to flee and use the terrain as an advantage.

That's not how scourge work at all. Scourge is so powerfull than it force ALL build to build more or less for counter it, and for most of class, it's still not enough.

People are forced to play entire trait line just because of the scourge powercreep, and it's still not enough, that's killed a lot of build, and make people angry.

When everyone is limited or deleted to counter 1 elite specialisation, it's the Elite that deserve the nerf, it's not people to make 100% counter that will just counter the Elite.

Even if there is 2 scourges on the ennemy team, you can't build 100% to counter the scourge, cuz there is the 3 other people to beat.

Open your eyes, scourge created a new meta in both PvP and WvW, it's so broken than people are forced to build entire team only based on scourge (scourge is on every competitive PvP team and zerg are scourge based), and if they don't they get delete by the scourge based team.

More inane and pointless Scourge hate. The class has very little mobility, survivability, no viable way to cleanse condi to the levels required in modern GW2, no second health bar, can be easily kited and is extremely vulnerable to ranged attack. Yet once again, because you can't dodge and burst, you come crying to the forums.

@"Taranis.7451" said:More inane and pointless Scourge hate. The class has very little mobility, survivability, no viable way to cleanse condi to the levels required in modern GW2, no second health bar, can be easily kited and is extremely vulnerable to ranged attack. Yet once again, because you can't dodge and burst, you come crying to the forums.

It's comments like this that lead to the failed balance updates by Anet. Nerfs need to happen to scourge. Simple. A class should not have access to such high area denial in a pvp mode that is largely focused around specific areas, all the meanwhile having no tell on their skills, massive boon corrupt and team support.

It's kind of ridiculous that you think dealing with scourge is simply a matter of attacking from range - any half decent scourge can just line of site, force you on node and still pump condis out from range.It makes me wonder what tier of pvp you play and how bad the scourges you face actually are...

As for your specific points:Scourges have better access to swiftness than core necro/ reaper, and reaper only has death's charge. On the whole Scourge mobility is on par with most necro specs.They have decent survivability in terms of the punishing conditions they have (weakness, slow, cripple, blind) and barrier output.They have massive condi cleanse: spammable 2 condi removal on F2, plague signet, plague signet trait, full condi clear on heal.They have no second health bar but have aoe team barrier output, accessible all the time (by which I mean there is not the cooldown you get after leaving shroud) provided you have enough LF. Arguably this is easily maintained. AOE barrier is very strong and arguably equal if not better to second health bar.I don't understand how you can say it's "easily kited" given the insane cripple output scourge has and the option for a portal utility. Kinda stupid suggestion otherwise."Easily dealt with by ranged" - dealt with above.

Oh also, the idea people are crying because they can't "dodge and burst" is hilarious - there is nothing to dodge (from a good scourge) because all f2-5 skills have 0 tell and all skills are highly damaging.

So please, Anet, don't listen to people like this.Actually take the advice of people who understand the profession and the class, and it's role in pvp (this is pvp forum, not wvw). Scourge needs heavy nerfs dealing with condi application, boon corrupt, aoe denial, sustain, cover condis.Just because you're a bad player who can just about make scourge work, doesn't mean it doesn't need nerfs. And just because you can kill a bad scourge doesn't mean the spec is in a balanced position.

@ToPNoP.2493 said:I know this is a pvp post, but scourge is too strong in wvw also. really, nothing pre pof can beat it at the same skill level. and a scourge can walk past a firebrand and anhilate it with one ring attached to its body. Scourge is too easy to play and should be nerfed to support.

but game is all about dps, they will never nerf the scourge damage output capability, classes and elite traits are designed based on how a pve player should feel the class workign for him.

I took this line from some Anet video where some dev's was telling how a class should behave and a player should feel it, i think was from pre HoT, so basicly during HoT presentation.