Grieving Thief build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8MBNOhFNB+FDUGjlWCTLAEiWA8NzsZ3c7QFdeBA-j1RBQBoVJYWV/RAPBAAcKA8y+DjV53T1HUPIAYSBsqSVVVJFAm6tA-w

Almost exactly the power D/D build, with just a couple swapped traits.

We take 'Hidden Killer' to get that 100% critical chance, which lasts through most of your revealed time between 'Cloak and Dagger, Backstab's. Yes, you do loose some ferocity here, but Grieving has a low critical rate, with fury we only have 70ish %. (worth testing which trait is actually higher DPS)

We loose the 20% damage bonus on low health targets, in exchange for massive bonus damage and duration on poison.

The poison duration here is 100% and the rotation of the build is all dagger attacks, thus applies huge amounts of poison with little to no focused effort.

Rotation:

• Deadeye Mark
• Stolen Skill
• Cloak and Dagger (C&D)
• Backstab
• Shadow Meld
• Backstab
• Auto x3
• C&D
• Backstab
• Shadow Meld
• Backstab
• Auto x3
• Shadow Flare
• C&D
• Backstab
• Auto x9Repeat, with Shadow Meld added every time it's off cooldown.

So far, with trash gear, (rampage / assassin) I'm hitting 22k on the golem with proper grieving, I expect to break into the 30k crowd.

Anyone out there have the gear to test this? If it turns out to suck, I'll spend my time gearing a different toon for grieving. But all testing shows so far, that it doesn't suck at all.

This build has little survivability. No condition removal, no anti-CC. Base armor and vitality. I'm concerned about how many CnD+BS you will make before you perish. If you'll have someone to top you off, then I would guess it is fine.

However, I would drop DA and take Trickery since the only thing you want in DA was Revealed Training. Lead Attacks trumps the +200 power from RT since it also increases condition damage. Also, I would take Trickster, Withdraw, and Roll for Initiatives for defense. Thorns is what you want for the rune.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:This build has little survivability. No condition removal, no anti-CC. Base armor and vitality. I'm concerned about how many CnD+BS you will make before you perish. If you'll have someone to top you off, then I would guess it is fine.

However, I would drop DA and take Trickery since the only thing you want in DA was Revealed Training. Lead Attacks trumps the +200 power from RT since it also increases condition damage. Also, I would take Trickster, Withdraw, and Roll for Initiatives for defense. Thorns is what you want for the rune.

Based on the post it sounds like he is using it for PvE Raids, I could be wrong though.

So, I'll look into thorns as a rune. (hadn't thought of it...will check calculator after typing reply)

However, this is intended to be a raid dps build, so survivability is secondary.

As for swapping trickery.... Uh.... No. That misses the entire point of the build.

We need 'Dagger Training' to apply poison. Our only other source of poison without it is Deadeye's mark.(edit: not our only source, missed it at the time. 3rd auto on dagger is also poison.) Not worth the entire investment of gear. We need 'potent poison' for the damage and duration increase.

Let me stress something about this build. This is a hybrid build. Not a power build that does some conditions. And not a condi build that puts up big white damage. It's a hybrid, such that we have plenty of condi damage (as much as a viper build) and we have 100% duration from traits runes and sigils. We have plenty of power, (as much as marauder build) while still getting critical damage up to 200%

Thief has the unique opportunity with 'dagger training' to do the power damage Backstab's rotation, while applying tons of poison.

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:So, I'll look into thorns as a rune. (hadn't thought of it...will check calculator after typing reply)

However, this is intended to be a raid dps build, so survivability is secondary.

As for swapping trickery.... Uh.... No. That misses the entire point of the build.

We need 'Dagger Training' to apply poison. Our only other source of poison without it is Deadeye's mark. Not worth the entire investment of gear. We need 'potent poison' for the damage and duration increase.

Let me stress something about this build. This is a hybrid build. Not a power build that does some conditions. And not a condi build that puts up big white damage. It's a hybrid, such that we have plenty of condi damage (as much as a viper build) and we have 100% duration from traits runes and sigils. We have plenty of power, (as much as marauder build) while still getting critical damage up to 200%

Thief has the unique opportunity with 'dagger training' to do the power damage Backstab's rotation, while applying tons of poison.

As I suspected, then I think it's fine as is. I would still suggest to test out Thorns rune.

Definitely, looks like with it we overcap slightly. Going to try to see if I can make the duration cleaner. Will post again layer

@BrokenGlass.9356 said:So, I'll look into thorns as a rune. (hadn't thought of it...will check calculator after typing reply)

However, this is intended to be a raid dps build, so survivability is secondary.

As for swapping trickery.... Uh.... No. That misses the entire point of the build.

We need 'Dagger Training' to apply poison. Our only other source of poison without it is Deadeye's mark. Not worth the entire investment of gear. We need 'potent poison' for the damage and duration increase.

Let me stress something about this build. This is a hybrid build. Not a power build that does some conditions. And not a condi build that puts up big white damage. It's a hybrid, such that we have plenty of condi damage (as much as a viper build) and we have 100% duration from traits runes and sigils. We have plenty of power, (as much as marauder build) while still getting critical damage up to 200%

Thief has the unique opportunity with 'dagger training' to do the power damage Backstab's rotation, while applying tons of poison.

Have you been able to ascertain how many extra stacks of poison it is you get on a given target using that rotation due to Dagger training? I found when using it in conjunction with a pure condition build you could generate some noticable extra tsacks off the DB given it 3 strikes against a single target at the 33 percent application rate but when I switched to another attack (A/a backstab etc) there a noticeable drop in the number of attacks per scond and thus a drop in times this can trigger.

This was all before POF with the ability to stealth via Smeld etc.

Also as far as the Cantrips go. Did you manage to compare the damage using Binding Shadow over Shadowflare? That extra Vuln is really useful in hyrbrid and it does have more posion albeit I can see you taking Shadowflare over it given others in the group might be adding Vuln.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8MBNOhFNB+FDUGjlWCTLAEiWA8NzsZ3c7QFdeBA-j1RBQBP4UA8U9BoVJIC3fIrq/AgnAwYV+FAIB4maTtpbKw6peqn6peqHtpb6mupb6mup1zmupSBgpeL-w

@Sir Vincent III.1286 I greatly appreciate your suggestion for the rune. Totally spot on! This enables us to drop sigil of venom, and take sigil of Air. Plus the 6the bonus on the rune ought to bring the dps up yet more.

As for poison stacks, I've stacked 15 or so on average on mobs that live long enough for the rotation to recycle, it spikes during your auto attack cycle to 20 or so. But a well placed venom can put up some eye watering numbers.

As for binding shadow, I want to like that spell. It totals up to something like less than half of the dps of shadow flare... You can bring it for break bars, I suppose. When I solo, I take it instead of the assassin signet.

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8MBNOhFNB+FDUGjlWCTLAEiWA8NzsZ3c7QFdeBA-j1RBQBP4UA8U9BoVJIC3fIrq/AgnAwYV+FAIB4maTtpbKw6peqn6peqHtpb6mupb6mup1zmupSBgpeL-w

@Sir Vincent III.1286 I greatly appreciate your suggestion for the rune. Totally spot on! This enables us to drop sigil of venom, and take sigil of Air. Plus the 6the bonus on the rune ought to bring the dps up yet more.

As for poison stacks, I've stacked 15 or so on average on mobs that live long enough for the rotation to recycle, it spikes during your auto attack cycle to 20 or so. But a well placed venom can put up some eye watering numbers.

As for binding shadow, I want to like that spell. It totals up to something like less than half of the dps of shadow flare... You can bring it for break bars, I suppose. When I solo, I take it instead of the assassin signet.

Ok I understand you get 15 total stacks but how much is due to dagger training?

Base duration for poison on dagger training is 2 seconds. You have it maxxed to 4 which means at 4 seconds the initial applications via Dagger training are expired.

So if we do the math you get 4 seconds of ramp time before you peaked via that skill. This means if you attack three times a second you get a total of 12 hits and with 1/3 of those adding poison via dagger training that means 4 stacks posion which tranlsates to 5+ with potent. What I am trying to determine is how many constant stacks you able to keep up from that trait. (if you are getting 4 or 5 it certainly worth it..if it 1 or 2 it questionable)

One reason DB works with that trait is it 3 attacks in about 1/2 second meaning on very db you all but guaranteed an extra posion. Contrast that with say Heartseeker and it one attack in 3/4 of a second meaning that you would need to pull three of these off to get a poison stack by the math. I am just trying to figure out how many dagger attacks you get off using your style and rotation in that 4 second period.

Gotcha.

So, the C&D BS combo, takes 1 sec or so to pull off. But you get 1 stack there 66% of the time just from that. Then, in between all of your C&D BS combos, you're filling with auto attacks. The first of which is multi hit.

So while you make a valid point that the poison stacks aren't as high as the say, condi DD... They are substantial, and require no extra effort in the rotation to produce.

The question this raises, is this: Is there a better rotation for the build that applies more poison, in the space while we are revealed? (presumably by using death blossom...)

Which in turn raises another question: Will that rotation take too much initiative and slow everything down too much?

Thinking again, this should be easy to figure out.

Condi dd's rotation is:

• dB 100%
• dodge
• autox3 133%Repeat.

VS,

• C&D 33%
• BS 33%
• Smeld
• BS 33%
• autox3 133%Repeat

Same chances when shadow meld is ready. One stack less on average when it isn't.

Yeah I was thinking of maxing rotations. There a few things a learned on a grieving build in WvW. While this does not always translate to your preferred mode things to consider.

2 for ones. Any skill/trait that boosts both Condition damage and Power damage is significant. This is why I mentioned Vulnerability as stacking that to 25 means a 25 percent boost in both power and condition damage. Unlike potent poison the Vuln will apply to ANY condition. The same thing is true with might as it boosts both condition and power. Lead attacks is another biggie here as at maximum you get an added 15 percent to each.

As stated I am in WvW and roam solo a lot so can not rly on allies for this stuff. If you are getting might off allies and or Vuln being stacked by others in a fractal these become less desired.

Now here something else I found and that how quickness underated and in particular when using a build that applies conditions and power damage via the #1 attack. Quickness on an INI based attack will not increase damage overall a heck of a lot as you are just burning off the INI faster but if you have a weapon set where you get power and condition damage on the #1 attack you can see a noticeable boost (Thus my questions on Dagger mastery).

Point of xample is the p/d set in my condition build. Base duration of the bleed is 4 seconds. I can get off about 2 shots per second meaning that I peak at around 8 stacks before the first ones applied start falling off. The conventional way to increase the number of these stacks one can apply is via a duration increase but in a place like WvW the more your durations go up, the greater the likelihood of a cleanse so you have diminishing retruns.

Running under quickness however my same P/d build can get around twic as many shots off with the #1 attack meaning twice as many bleed stacks per second. I in essence get the equivalent of 100 percent increased duration damage in a shorter period of time as I can have more then those 8 stacks on afer the first 4 seconds period.

To that point I aim wondering whether you can get some sort of added quickness in your build over be quick or be killed. This suggests Trickery which aslo has that lead attacks boost and whether ot not this will put damage output any higher then the build you linked to. Barring trickery there might be another way of getting that quickness into the build. I am certainly not suggesting this would result in more damage out as there a lot of other factors to consider but it is something you might look into.

@babazhook.6805 said:Yeah I was thinking of maxing rotations. There a few things a learned on a grieving build in WvW. While this does not always translate to your preferred mode things to consider.

2 for ones. Any skill/trait that boosts both Condition damage and Power damage is significant. This is why I mentioned Vulnerability as stacking that to 25 means a 25 percent boost in both power and condition damage. Unlike potent poison the Vuln will apply to ANY condition. The same thing is true with might as it boosts both condition and power. Lead attacks is another biggie here as at maximum you get an added 15 percent to each.

As stated I am in WvW and roam solo a lot so can not rly on allies for this stuff. If you are getting might off allies and or Vuln being stacked by others in a fractal these become less desired.

Now here something else I found and that how quickness underated and in particular when using a build that applies conditions and power damage via the #1 attack. Quickness on an INI based attack will not increase damage overall a heck of a lot as you are just burning off the INI faster but if you have a weapon set where you get power and condition damage on the #1 attack you can see a noticeable boost (Thus my questions on Dagger mastery).

Point of xample is the p/d set in my condition build. Base duration of the bleed is 4 seconds. I can get off about 2 shots per second meaning that I peak at around 8 stacks before the first ones applied start falling off. The conventional way to increase the number of these stacks one can apply is via a duration increase but in a place like WvW the more your durations go up, the greater the likelihood of a cleanse so you have diminishing retruns.

Running under quickness however my same P/d build can get around twic as many shots off with the #1 attack meaning twice as many bleed stacks per second. I in essence get the equivalent of 100 percent increased duration damage in a shorter period of time as I can have more then those 8 stacks on afer the first 4 seconds period.

To that point I aim wondering whether you can get some sort of added quickness in your build over be quick or be killed. This suggests Trickery which aslo has that lead attacks boost and whether ot not this will put damage output any higher then the build you linked to. Barring trickery there might be another way of getting that quickness into the build. I am certainly not suggesting this would result in more damage out as there a lot of other factors to consider but it is something you might look into.

If they are raiding like they said they are, the. In actual raid group they would have quickness 50-100% uptime.

@babazhook.6805 said:Yeah I was thinking of maxing rotations. There a few things a learned on a grieving build in WvW. While this does not always translate to your preferred mode things to consider.

2 for ones. Any skill/trait that boosts both Condition damage and Power damage is significant. This is why I mentioned Vulnerability as stacking that to 25 means a 25 percent boost in both power and condition damage. Unlike potent poison the Vuln will apply to ANY condition. The same thing is true with might as it boosts both condition and power. Lead attacks is another biggie here as at maximum you get an added 15 percent to each.

As stated I am in WvW and roam solo a lot so can not rly on allies for this stuff. If you are getting might off allies and or Vuln being stacked by others in a fractal these become less desired.

Now here something else I found and that how quickness underated and in particular when using a build that applies conditions and power damage via the #1 attack. Quickness on an INI based attack will not increase damage overall a heck of a lot as you are just burning off the INI faster but if you have a weapon set where you get power and condition damage on the #1 attack you can see a noticeable boost (Thus my questions on Dagger mastery).

Point of xample is the p/d set in my condition build. Base duration of the bleed is 4 seconds. I can get off about 2 shots per second meaning that I peak at around 8 stacks before the first ones applied start falling off. The conventional way to increase the number of these stacks one can apply is via a duration increase but in a place like WvW the more your durations go up, the greater the likelihood of a cleanse so you have diminishing retruns.

Running under quickness however my same P/d build can get around twic as many shots off with the #1 attack meaning twice as many bleed stacks per second. I in essence get the equivalent of 100 percent increased duration damage in a shorter period of time as I can have more then those 8 stacks on afer the first 4 seconds period.

To that point I aim wondering whether you can get some sort of added quickness in your build over be quick or be killed. This suggests Trickery which aslo has that lead attacks boost and whether ot not this will put damage output any higher then the build you linked to. Barring trickery there might be another way of getting that quickness into the build. I am certainly not suggesting this would result in more damage out as there a lot of other factors to consider but it is something you might look into.

I agree I'd like more quickness... But in raids, as the above poster said, that's taken care of for me.

When soloing I do take Binding Shadow. In part for the vulnerability. Can make a huge difference in backatab damage.

As for the pistol, I had thought about this... But it requires viper gear to maximize in a raid setting. We get no duration trait for it... And the runes and sigil nessecary to make up the difference sacrifice alot of power and condition damage.

We have to swap runes to Afflicted. Sigil of venom and agony, rare veggies pizza, and a vipers chest piece. That looses, the stacking bonus from thorns, sigil of force, and sigil of air, and the 15% poison duration from the cheeseburger.

Here the issue is synergy with grieving.

To make it work in pve, all of your damage must come from one condition. (or have duration traits and skills like signet of midnight on mesmer) investing in two conditions begins to shift to a condi build, as you can't take enough things that boost power damage.

Although I'd admit that pistol dagger sounds fun for bleed spam in pvp.

Glad to see people haven't given up on Deadeye.

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Glad to see people haven't given up on Deadeye.

Me give up on Deadeye ? When I will be in my grave. (It's in a good way)

@"BrokenGlass.9356" said:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8MBNOhFNB+FDUGjlWCTLAEiWA8NzsZ3c7QFdeBA-j1RBQBP4UA8U9BoVJIC3fIrq/AgnAwYV+FAIB4maTtpbKw6peqn6peqHtpb6mupb6mup1zmupSBgpeL-w

@Sir Vincent III.1286 I greatly appreciate your suggestion for the rune. Totally spot on! This enables us to drop sigil of venom, and take sigil of Air. Plus the 6the bonus on the rune ought to bring the dps up yet more.

@babazhook.6805 recommended that rune for my condition build and I fell in love with it ever since.