Mechanics that hurt PvP

The fun and interactive combat system is basically the only reason why anyone sticks around in PvP, why so many people frequently check back, and why it takes so long for people to move on to other games. However, ANet has unquestionably ruined a system that had massive potential by weighing it down with a slew of terrible mechanics that aren't fun to play against. These mechanics are one of the major reasons you constantly hear people complain for nerfs on the forums...they get killed by a build and it doesn't feel like "wow that guy made a good play," but instead "wow that was a load of crap." In the end, it all comes down to counterplay, and these mechanics are the worst offenders, along with the classes that best abuse them, in no particular order.

Invulnerability: This is the ultimate mechanic when it comes to lack of counterplay. When the opponent goes invuln...there is literally NOTHING you can do but wait. This doesn't mean there should be NO invulns, but there should be harsh drawbacks for every one. Dodging, for instance, is the most balanced invuln in the game...You can't hit me, but I can't hit you while I re-position. Likewise, invulns like elixir S and mistform are decent, as they have the same drawback (although the frequency of S feels bad). Invluns that are VERY BAD are stone signet, obsidian flesh, distortion, mirage dodges, even endure pain...all of these don't really have enough drawbacks. Drawbacks should include: you do half outgoing damage, you move slower, conditions tick for more damage...etc.

Ports that ignore LOS: While instant ports are important for many styles of play, being able to ignore LOS is one of the worst mechanics in the game. While thief is the worst offender, guardian and ele (polaric leap) are also offenders. For a combat system that relies on visibility to react to your opponent, this should not be possible. Even more, porting BACK to the same point just promotes gameplay that neuters your opponent's ability to fight back, making it terrible to fight against.

Instant CC's: Similar to ports that have no tells, CC's that have no cast time or animation are a cardinal sin. CC's are important for combat, but when you can't see it or they are instant, there is no counterplay to you losing control of your character. While stunbreaks are a thing, they rightly have long CD's (or should). CC's should be tactical skills the require intelligent timing to set up another skill or prevent an escape/heal. Making these instant makes combat into more of a single player game: "I'm going to do my things...and you just have to sit there an take it!"

TOO MUCH of any one thing: Too many builds have too much of any one of these things feels cheap as well. Being able to dodge/invuln/block for 75% of a fight is simply frustrating to fight. Being able to chain CC's over and over again...same problem. Being able to burst again and again and again with no punishment for missing takes away the reward of skillful play in avoiding a burst. Endlessly healing through all the damage your opponent can put out, even when they punish key mistakes (interrupt a heal, land a full burst. etc) feels bad because there aren't intelligent tactical decisions you can make to win.

Stealth: Not that stealth is the worst on this list, but as implemented in GW2, it truly has no real downsides and is too often completely 1-sided. Revealed was a good thing, but has been mostly given up on as opposed to properly doled out in a balanced manner to make stealth a game of cat/mouse. Ontop of this, being able to completely 1-shot from stealth turns interactive combat into a simple FPS for one player. Proper downsides would be: no endurace regen, moving slower while stealth, a short reveal (0.5s) on using abilities while targeting another player so they aren't required to just random-dodge and guess, being hit revealing a player.

SPAM: Powercreep is to blame here. Too many builds just passively generate all of the boons, and too many builds just proc all the condis, and too many builds just automatically heal every condi. Every one of these forms of spam is terrible for the game. Boon-spam cheapens combat because it makes combos from something incredibly interesting for teams into something worthless, make corrupts/strips less impactful, and creates a situation where powerful boons aren't used at select times (quickness/fury to spike, prot before a spike, etc.), but just always available. Similar with the every-escalating arms-race between cleanse and condis. Condis are something that a player intelligently builds up and covers, to play around limited cleanse. Instead, players either have all of the cleanse and condi builds are worthless, or condi builds massively overrun even max-cleanse and players just feel powerless. In either situation, neither player feels like they can intelligently outplay their enemy, but instead feel defeated by their build.

I wish Anet would fix this, but I have 0 hope of it happening. Instead, I expect them to stay the course until every single ability is either a 1-shot, 1 year of invuln, etc. If they resolved these problems more, players wouldn't continue to leave, and some might come back. Even PvE would benefit from fixing most of these, so that more diversity could be had in raid comps when 1 or 2 guys don't just handle all of the boons and healing you could need, with some extra group-invulns to overcome a tough situation.

TLDR: There are too many damn mechanics that lack counterplay, and they hurt the game. Anet should fix them, but will probably just double-down on more them.

@"BlackBeard.2873" said:The fun and interactive combat system is basically the only reason why anyone sticks around in PvP, why so many people frequently check back, and why it takes so long for people to move on to other games. However, ANet has unquestionably ruined a system that had massive potential by weighing it down with a slew of terrible mechanics that aren't fun to play against. These mechanics are one of the major reasons you constantly hear people complain for nerfs on the forums...they get killed by a build and it doesn't feel like "wow that guy made a good play," but instead "wow that was a load of crap." In the end, it all comes down to counterplay, and these mechanics are the worst offenders, along with the classes that best abuse them, in no particular order.

Invulnerability: This is the ultimate mechanic when it comes to lack of counterplay. When the opponent goes invuln...there is literally NOTHING you can do but wait. This doesn't mean there should be NO invulns, but there should be harsh drawbacks for every one. Dodging, for instance, is the most balanced invuln in the game...You can't hit me, but I can't hit you while I re-position. Likewise, invulns like elixir S and mistform are decent, as they have the same drawback (although the frequency of S feels bad). Invluns that are VERY BAD are stone signet, obsidian flesh, distortion, mirage dodges, even endure pain...all of these don't really have enough drawbacks. Drawbacks should include: you do half outgoing damage, you move slower, conditions tick for more damage...etc.

Ports that ignore LOS: While instant ports are important for many styles of play, being able to ignore LOS is one of the worst mechanics in the game. While thief is the worst offender, guardian and ele (polaric leap) are also offenders. For a combat system that relies on visibility to react to your opponent, this should not be possible. Even more, porting BACK to the same point just promotes gameplay that neuters your opponent's ability to fight back, making it terrible to fight against.

Instant CC's: Similar to ports that have no tells, CC's that have no cast time or animation are a cardinal sin. CC's are important for combat, but when you can't see it or they are instant, there is no counterplay to you losing control of your character. While stunbreaks are a thing, they rightly have long CD's (or should). CC's should be tactical skills the require intelligent timing to set up another skill or prevent an escape/heal. Making these instant makes combat into more of a single player game: "I'm going to do my things...and you just have to sit there an take it!"

TOO MUCH of any one thing: Too many builds have too much of any one of these things feels cheap as well. Being able to dodge/invuln/block for 75% of a fight is simply frustrating to fight. Being able to chain CC's over and over again...same problem. Being able to burst again and again and again with no punishment for missing takes away the reward of skillful play in avoiding a burst. Endlessly healing through all the damage your opponent can put out, even when they punish key mistakes (interrupt a heal, land a full burst. etc) feels bad because there aren't intelligent tactical decisions you can make to win.

Stealth: Not that stealth is the worst on this list, but as implemented in GW2, it truly has no real downsides and is too often completely 1-sided. Revealed was a good thing, but has been mostly given up on as opposed to properly doled out in a balanced manner to make stealth a game of cat/mouse. Ontop of this, being able to completely 1-shot from stealth turns interactive combat into a simple FPS for one player. Proper downsides would be: no endurace regen, moving slower while stealth, a short reveal (0.5s) on using abilities while targeting another player so they aren't required to just random-dodge and guess, being hit revealing a player.

SPAM: Powercreep is to blame here. Too many builds just passively generate all of the boons, and too many builds just proc all the condis, and too many builds just automatically heal every condi. Every one of these forms of spam is terrible for the game. Boon-spam cheapens combat because it makes combos from something incredibly interesting for teams into something worthless, make corrupts/strips less impactful, and creates a situation where powerful boons aren't used at select times (quickness/fury to spike, prot before a spike, etc.), but just always available. Similar with the every-escalating arms-race between cleanse and condis. Condis are something that a player intelligently builds up and covers, to play around limited cleanse. Instead, players either have all of the cleanse and condi builds are worthless, or condi builds massively overrun even max-cleanse and players just feel powerless. In either situation, neither player feels like they can intelligently outplay their enemy, but instead feel defeated by their build.

I wish Anet would fix this, but I have 0 hope of it happening. Instead, I expect them to stay the course until every single ability is either a 1-shot, 1 year of invuln, etc. If they resolved these problems more, players wouldn't continue to leave, and some might come back. Even PvE would benefit from fixing most of these, so that more diversity could be had in raid comps when 1 or 2 guys don't just handle all of the boons and healing you could need, with some extra group-invulns to overcome a tough situation.

TLDR: There are too many kitten mechanics that lack counterplay, and they hurt the game. Anet should fix them, but will probably just double-down on more them.

That's because you have the Professions Team building professions and abilities for PvE, without a clue/thought/love of PvP... and then you have, like, three dudes on the PvP team begging for changes to make the game mode not garbage.

This game waved bu-bye to decent PvP long, LONG ago. Now... just get in there and have fun. Hopefully Anet will realize how badly they messed up with PvP and make it a more enjoyable experience, that rewards gold at the same rate as PvE... without solo-queue ranked and all that garbage (team play should still exist for those who really want to compete)... so people can enjoy non-meta builds and less toxicity in random queues and just have fun and get rewarded for time spent in game (with more rewards for wins / better play).

Very nicely spelled out Blackbeard.The heavily overloaded skills, the easy, ubiquitous spam of boons and conditions, the sheer number of passives or lack of true hard choices in skill use all lead to lack of good counterplay and instead reward spam. The fun and skill tend to fall by the wayside. Before anyone says "but a skilled player will be better...." I agree wholeheartedly. A player who outplays another should win, and neither player should have the feeling that random procs, passive traits or a chain of effects from spamming two or three overloaded skills dictated the match. If the match truly comes down to thoughtful trait/build choices, skilled play and tactical choices, players will tend to try to improve. There would be more fun, less toxicity and gradually more people playing. Perhaps we could get to the point that the cheaters, afkers and wintraders would actually be unacceptable, instead of a meme.

As it is now, even with the rewards, pvp feels bad to play too much of the time. I really want to like it, but it is hard to want to put any time into the mode, for all of Blackbeard's points listed above.

1.Invulnerabilitystone signet has much higher cd there is nothing wrong with it ,obsidian flesh is in earth which means ele does have to be stuck with defensive skills or burn through 3 attunes for burst . the problem is fresh air trait itself is poorly designed .without that , obsidian flesh can't bypass those cost i listed .distortion: it literally destroy clones which are mesmer resource for burst on a power build .mirage dodges : its literally just 0.25s longer dodge (the longer frame is there to complement the lack of movement ) the benefit is mirage can cast spell while dodge which due to ambush mechanic is not too practically useful as offensive tools, it is amazing as defensive tool to cover up skill like heal or mantra charge . but it is supposed to be mirage gimmick anyway .this list is more like you want to make a list for sake of it .

but you failed to mention the real problem : auto invuln traits

2 .Ports that ignore LOSagree , but if it's utility skill with higher cd and engaging only i think it would be just fine .

3. instantly ccagree

4 .TOO MUCH of any one thingwhile agree with what you said about the game shouldn't have 75% evading uptime build , but what you describe simply doesn't exist . i know you are going to claim certain build can chain evade or healing . but in current meta none of them are practically useful .if anything ,the problem is opposite , most meta builds are strong at multi things and many strong skills are loaded with cc , heal , finisher and damage etc .(lunar impact ) . we need more meta builds that focus on one thing and one thing only (bunker build should be forced to pick self sustain or group support not both )

5.stealthi agree stealth is broken in gw2 but your solution seems to fix nothing but only a nerf to mesmer and maybe engi since it will do little to steal from stealth ,and thief still has all those mobility abilities .which will result even less counter to thief .

6.spamagree butthere is no quickness spam or even fury spam ,some soulbeast build maybe .offensive boons are generally still require meaningful game play or specific build . defensive boons like protection vigor and regen etc are everywhere tho . and let's be honest , what build can generate many condition now ? only scourge . as long as pvp players have delusion that condition problem is the stack not the individual abilities , anet will not balance condition. look back ,anet did what community asked to condition , people got more condition removal , resistance boon , condition damage reduce trait , and people still complaint about condition .when its last time you feel condition engi or condi ranger was a threat ?

also anet kept adding unique effect that doesn't have any counter , some are gated by resource or cd and are justified . but some are not like frost aura .this is a result of over loaded skills since hot , what we need is real purity of purpose on most meta builds (pun intended ).

Fair points...

But ultimately this is another post that completely overlooks high end and top level play. What is missing here is an understanding that many top players enjoy multiclassing. They enjoy learning personally the mechanics of all the classes and then deploying that knowledge in a strategic way to ANTICIPATE what the oppenent will do.

This is a game of chess more than it is a boxing match.

If that isn't your thing, this isn't your game.

nice write up. i hope someone at anet actually reads this, understands, and tries to make some changes...

@"bladezero.9470" said:Fair points...

But ultimately this is another post that completely overlooks high end and top level play. What is missing here is an understanding that many top players enjoy multiclassing. They enjoy learning personally the mechanics of all the classes and then deploying that knowledge in a strategic way to ANTICIPATE what the oppenent will do.

This is a game of chess more than it is a boxing match.

If that isn't your thing, this isn't your game.

I completely disagree with you here. Most "high level players" that have quit always hated these types of mechanics because they all lack counterplay. When gw2 was released, they actually didn't have too many of these mechanics, or they were not yet discovered. Over time, power creep has made these mechanics more and more prevalent, and with it, there have been fewer and fewer players. Whether you have stupid/unfair mechanics or not, you can still learn different playstyles and anticipate your opponent. However, when mechanics have counterplay (unlike those listed here), good players are better able to punish their opponents for playing poorly.

These mechanics honestly have nothing to do with skill or balance, because every build nowadays has many of these. This isn't whining for nerfs for any one class. This is about making combat more interactive and fun. You can have balance where everyone has a bunch of unfair stuff, but this is just unfun and frustrating to play with. Well balanced games, such as LoL or Overwatch, don't have many of these mechanics, and players trying to learn can honestly identify mistakes they made just by playing. In GW2, most players who get killed, especially when they don't have comprehensive knowledge of every class's cooldowns, usually has no idea what blew them up or how to counter it. As such, the conclusion is usually "well that guy is just OP" rather than "wow, that guy was really smart with his tactics"

@BlackBeard.2873 said:

@"bladezero.9470" said:Fair points...

But ultimately this is another post that completely overlooks high end and top level play. What is missing here is an understanding that many top players enjoy multiclassing. They enjoy learning personally the mechanics of all the classes and then deploying that knowledge in a strategic way to ANTICIPATE what the oppenent will do.

This is a game of chess more than it is a boxing match.

If that isn't your thing, this isn't your game.

Sorry again...

Everything in this game has counterplay.

Build around your team, not yourself. Multiclass and switch accordingly at the start of your match. Can't deal with a scourge? Pack a firebrand. Don't like a Druid's sustain? Bring a theif or Mesmer and rotate accordingly. Can't spot the holo or mirage? Get prepared for their burst and be ready for your own counter once they've missed.

What you are describing is just silver and gold tier L2P issues. If most people can't be bothered to understand all the classes and when/how they burst, if all they want is everything to be fast twitch FPS reaction with easy visual queues, then they have much simpler and frankly easier alternative games to choose from.

Again, whatever Guildwars 2 might have been in 2012, it isn't that anymore. I think you yourself admit that it probably won't ever change back.

I would suggest to anyone actually interested in learning how to counter (yes anything) to join a pvp guild community and start practicing together in the custom arena. Talk to others about how they play their class.

You won't get very far otherwise.

@bladezero.9470 said:

@BlackBeard.2873 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:Fair points...

But ultimately this is another post that completely overlooks high end and top level play. What is missing here is an understanding that many top players enjoy multiclassing. They enjoy learning personally the mechanics of all the classes and then deploying that knowledge in a strategic way to ANTICIPATE what the oppenent will do.

This is a game of chess more than it is a boxing match.

If that isn't your thing, this isn't your game.

And how many of those high end players are there? A few dozens? Perhaps fewer. I've played with them on some AT's and I kept on seeing the same 40-50 names. They all are full of themselves as if they own this game and know every single thing, every nook and cranny, always rolling the easiest meta.

However, the problem at hand is not a rant about L2P itself, but this thread focuses on a bigger picture that made the PvP fall into such a derelict state. In every game you will find those "pro" players who play whatever is the strongest, it's nothing new, thus hardly a valid argument. The essence of it is if there are many more of such players and what is their quality, what is their mettle. Let us not forget that currently even some of those "pros" have to wintrade, play off-hours to farm silvers or do anything that gives them more advantage and is not directly regarded as pure skill to keep their rank.Besides, I've been checking out other MMORPG's recently and I feel ashamed to admit that GW2 is for kids if it comes to the difficulty in pvp. Because so far it is challenging to learn new mechanics and not hoping for some silly passive procs to save me, or to drop a skill that does multiple things at once. In GW2 pvp many mistakes can be forgiven and there is little punishment if you do them. Such light-hearted gameplay ends swiftly and painfuly in other mmorpgs where you actually have to put some more effort into fighting, and where skills are not, as stated above, few things at once.If this is of any concern to you, because some of you seem to still hold value to it and validate people based on that, I used to roll in top 250 T2-T3 plat for last 3 seasons. I don't play anymore though.

P.S.I really missed the mana bar mechanic, it really makes you think what skills to use and which are not worth it. Way harder to spam skills that way.

Good list, if also like to add large aoe damage over time skills. This is what makes scourge so toxic, all of their skills are this. In a conquest game mode these are so brainless to use. A one shot aoe skill is less of a problem, like rev hammer 3 and 5 or warrior longbow 3, because it can be dodge, but the damage over time ones are just drop and forget. Their is no downside to spamming these whenever, no strategy or timing required. These skills are what lower the skill floor down to toddler levels.

Very good post.It's a good summary of why I've just uninstalled the game again :(.

They need to build fun and engaging battlegrounds (like WoW) that are 10v10 or 15v15 and more fun than competitive... and then reward people just for the grind. This would let people focus more on just having fun.

The 5-man conquest stuff should be 5-man teams only, where REAL competition happens.

I mean... who would ever seriously compete in ANY sport where your teams is created randomly before every match and your salary is based only on winning/losing and not at all on personal performance. It's absurd.

Great analysis.

I would add

combinations getting out of hand

For example: Steal is a balanced skill. Opponents can't really avoid it*, but they can react once it happens. Basilisk Venom is a balanced skill. Opponents can see it on your status bar and can make sure to dodge the next attacks. Steal + Basilisk Venom is an unbalanced combination. They're going to get hit with an unblockable instant teleporting cc from 1200 range, then probably burst dead unless they have a stunbreak up.

Another: Rapid Fire is a balanced skill. Quickness is a balanced boon and traits/skills that give it are fine. Unblockable effects can be balanced too assuming the opponent can react to them. However, Soulbeast combines these into Unblockable+Quickness Rapid Fire, which can do 40k unblockable damage in 1s from 1500 range on a glassy build. That's a little oppressive.

Another: Holosmith (and Warrior + others) chaining cc's. If your opponent doesn't have a stunbreak up, given that you land one cc, you can just keep cc-combo-ing until they're dead. Each individual CC can be fine with a long animation, but once you land one, you can land them all.

*.. you can actually avoid steal by dodging in anticipation of the thief using it, which requires an absurd amount of game experience and/or telepathy.