Revert Compounding Chemicals please. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Revert Compounding Chemicals please.

Topic.
Please revert the change back from healing to condition removal on elixir use.
Just my opinion and stance on the change.

K, thanks.
Bye.

Comments

  • I agree with this. Condi removal on elixir use made engineer playable in a game where several professions have condi spam variants. The buffs to Inventions still leaves it weaker than Alchemy pre-patch as both the major and minor traits lack synergy with other lines or even other traits in Inventions with the exceptions of Comeback Cure working with Energy Amplifier and Anticorrosion Plating working with Protection Injection. But having to pair Inventions with Alchemy to try and have the support pre-patch Alchemy gave leaves either elite spec without the possibility of using a damage oriented line such as Explosives or Tools.

    It seems like condi clear on elixir use was removed to make way for the new way for the elite specs to clear condis with Anticorrosion Plating traited: pulsing protection fields (Hard Light Arena and Reconstruction Field), but tying most of an engineer's condi clear to a single skill leaves it incredibly vulnerable when that skill is on cooldown. My worry for holosmith having to run a static and flashy field to clear condis using Inventions is that any sensible condi variant will simply get out of the Hard Light Arena, wait for it to disappear, and condi bomb the holosmith once it's on its 45 second cooldown.

  • coglin.1496coglin.1496 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:
    I agree with this. Condi removal on elixir use made engineer playable in a game where several professions have condi spam variants.

    To what end? Guilds kick anyone out in WvW who play anything but the hard core group meta. Especially now that all the guild leaders have illconcieved and uninformed notions about the WvW Changes. No one is really playing WvW anyway. Similarly no one is playing PvP. I would be willing to bet the games population that play PvP or WvW is 5%-10% tops. So why should they make changes on other professions using condition damage when almost none of the player base are fighting one another in the first place?

    Do not confuse your objective opinion with that of objective fact. Remember, what you say matters, not what you meant to say.

  • coglin.1496coglin.1496 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    Not sure what game you play.

    GW2. I would have pressumed you would have deduced that based on the forums we are having are discussion on.

    T3 WvW had queues thirty to fifty people deep on every map last night. And guilds that try to exclude players based on profession are short-sighted, and I enjoy destroying their backlines of glass staff weavers and hammer revs on holosmith.

    I do not disagree, it is short sighted. In many cases it appeared to me to be misguided as well.

    So yes, since people do play the mode, reverting compounding chemicals would be a healthy change for engineer.

    No one suggested people didn't play WvW. I do not know where you came to that conclusion. Though I did suggest very few people ever play core engineer in WvW and thus I do not see value in changing a trait that works well with the builds people are actually running in WvW.

    Do not confuse your objective opinion with that of objective fact. Remember, what you say matters, not what you meant to say.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Back to topic: What was Anets reason for changing it to healing? Seems odd considering the amount of condi creep the game has seen.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • @Draeyon.4392 said:
    Topic.
    Please revert the change back from healing to condition removal on elixir use.
    Just my opinion and stance on the change.

    K, thanks.
    Bye.

    I second this. I'm fine with the changes overall, but I don't understand why Engi is being forced into a full support build, needing both Inventions and Alchemy now to effectively cleanse condis. In my opinion there should be a choice between running full support to be able to spam aoe condi cleanse and running a dps build that still provides some self-sufficient condi removal options. The first option is now possible, the second is not. Putting condi cleanse on a certain set of utility skills has worked and is still working for most other classes, who only need one traitline and mostly even just one trait to be able to get rid of smaller amounts of condis reliably.
    Some examples:

    • Thief, Trickery, Trickster, trick skills remove 1 condition
    • Ranger, Wilderness Survival, Wilderness Knowledge, survival skills remove two condis and grant fury
    • Guardian, Honor, Pure of Voice, shouts convert one condition into a boon
    • Elementalist, Water, Cleansing Wave, removes a condition when attuning to water, and Cleansing Water, removes a condition when applying regen
    • Mesmers can lose condis with Shatter skills, Warriors with weapon swap.

    In all cases, one defensive traitline can still be coupled with at least one offensive traitline, no one is forced to run full support to remove a few condis. Why was it so wrong for Engineer's elixirs to work like this and for Alchemy to be able to remove conditions without being paired with Inventions to do the job?

  • Phineas Poe.3018Phineas Poe.3018 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2018

    @Lahmia.2193 said:
    Back to topic: What was Anets reason for changing it to healing? Seems odd considering the amount of condi creep the game has seen.

    Because they shifted condition cleanse from Alchemical Tinctures in Alchemy to Anticorrosion Plating in Inventions. Instead of using elixir skills to cleanse conditions, we're supposed to now use skills that grant protection: Thumper Turret with Experimental Armor, Medic Gyro tool belt, Hard Light Arena, etc.

    Some people seem to prefer it this way as it lessens our dependency on the Alchemy trait line and elixirs in general, but others (myself included) see this as a pretty big nerf. It's most especially a major nerf to core engineer, which absolutely needed no nerfs. Instead of running a minor trait in Alchemy to handle your condition cleanse, you now have to forgo Mecha Legs and Bunker Down -- two major traits -- to maximize your condition cleanse. It also basically forces core engineer builds to always take the Thumper Turret and Supply Crate, hamstringing build diversity.

    If I'm being completely honest, this change pretty much indicates to me that we can forget about core builds ever being viable in PvP again. This was a change that obviously favors scrapper and holosmith, who now have even bigger reasons to take their Medic Gyro and Hard Light Arena. But for them it's still a nerf. It still makes us take a major trait in favor of Bunker Down to get the same effect of what was once a minor trait in Alchemy. It also just further heightens our dependency on boon generation to carry our sustain.

  • @Draeyon.4392 said:
    Topic.
    Please revert the change back from healing to condition removal on elixir use.
    Just my opinion and stance on the change.

    K, thanks.
    Bye.

    I agree wholeheartedly. I bet most who play Engineer also agree! I guess that's all I'm allowed to say. :(

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coglin.1496 said:

    No one suggested people didn't play WvW. I do not know where you came to that conclusion.

    I just wanted to point out that you did.

    To what end? Guilds kick anyone out in WvW who play anything but the hard core group meta. Especially now that all the guild leaders have illconcieved and uninformed notions about the WvW Changes. No one is really playing WvW anyway (copy/pasted from what you said)

    Just wanted to point that out.

    Also, I agree with the OP's request to change CC back

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  • Completely Agreed

    My personal thought is that they removed CC in fears that it would be just too strong when paired with Purity of Purpose, a new boon when you Drink Elixirs on top of the removal, but honestly, this is just too much, i want it back!

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭

    Disagree.

    Cleansing condi on elixir usage practically FORCED all pvp/wvw engi builds to take this trait, and then run elixirs even when the build would really prefer using other skills (kits, gyros, holo skills, etc.)

    IMO, they should do one of two things:

    • give engi back some cleanse, but add it to the heal skills (eg. each heal skill cleanses 1-2 more condi). This allows build diversity and doesn't force anyone to run that traitline + elixir skills
    • continue reducing condi cleanse AND condi burst on other classes. Cleanse becomes rarer, but condis become more about damage over time.
  • coglin.1496coglin.1496 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    To what end? Guilds kick anyone out in WvW who play anything but the hard core group meta. Especially now that all the guild leaders have illconcieved and uninformed notions about the WvW Changes. No one is really playing WvW anyway (copy/pasted from what you said)

    Just wanted to point that out.

    Also, I agree with the OP's request to change CC back

    Well, context matters. I was suggesting a very small portion of the community play. I doubt anyone here who seems to hone in on that singular comment, yet I am certain none of you can offer a single piece of evidence suggesting more than 2% of the games player base, play WvW. That makes a difference because demanding changes when it affects so few is not always reasonable and seems to be forgotten by to many.

    Do not confuse your objective opinion with that of objective fact. Remember, what you say matters, not what you meant to say.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2018

    @coglin.1496 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    To what end? Guilds kick anyone out in WvW who play anything but the hard core group meta. Especially now that all the guild leaders have illconcieved and uninformed notions about the WvW Changes. No one is really playing WvW anyway (copy/pasted from what you said)

    Just wanted to point that out.

    Also, I agree with the OP's request to change CC back

    Well, context matters. I was suggesting a very small portion of the community play. I doubt anyone here who seems to hone in on that singular comment, yet I am certain none of you can offer a single piece of evidence suggesting more than 2% of the games player base, play WvW. That makes a difference because demanding changes when it affects so few is not always reasonable and seems to be forgotten by to many.

    Dual edged sword bud. You cant provide evidence either. Im not here to argue tho.

    Hard to say if 2% of the population WvW's. Some nights I see well over 100 in each BL, some not so much. Ive been in t2 - t4 and have seen the size of blobs on some nights. I Wouldn't be surprised if it was more than 2% imo.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • coglin.1496coglin.1496 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    Hard to say if 2% of the population WvW's. Some nights I see well over 100 in each BL, some not so much. Ive been in t2 - t4 and have seen the size of blobs on some nights. I Wouldn't be surprised if it was more than 2% imo.

    Sure, if you do not count the dev post on Reddit stating that less than 2% of active accounts play WvW more than once in a 30 day cycle, if we discount that, then sure, I am just guessing.

    Do not confuse your objective opinion with that of objective fact. Remember, what you say matters, not what you meant to say.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coglin.1496 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    Hard to say if 2% of the population WvW's. Some nights I see well over 100 in each BL, some not so much. Ive been in t2 - t4 and have seen the size of blobs on some nights. I Wouldn't be surprised if it was more than 2% imo.

    Sure, if you do not count the dev post on Reddit stating that less than 2% of active accounts play WvW more than once in a 30 day cycle, if we discount that, then sure, I am just guessing.

    Could be guessing. You have a link to that source?

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/mc_celestia
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • Ivantreil.3092Ivantreil.3092 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2018

    @coro.3176 said:
    Disagree.

    Cleansing condi on elixir usage practically FORCED all pvp/wvw engi builds to take this trait, and then run elixirs even when the build would really prefer using other skills (kits, gyros, holo skills, etc.)

    IMO, they should do one of two things:

    • give engi back some cleanse, but add it to the heal skills (eg. each heal skill cleanses 1-2 more condi). This allows build diversity and doesn't force anyone to run that traitline + elixir skills
    • continue reducing condi cleanse AND condi burst on other classes. Cleanse becomes rarer, but condis become more about damage over time.

    If you ask me personally, plenty of the meta builds took Alchemy anyways for the cd reduction of important skills such as Elixir S and Elixir Gun, and in many cases, the main cleanse removal was Healing Turret anyways, the only builds that got hit hard by this was heavy based elixir based builds, was forced? yes, but for other reasons, not for the cleanse man, that was a bonus for the majority anyways, dont believe me? remember scrapper pre pof?, they were using HT and Purge gyro, Alchemy was for the sole purpose of increasing the survivability via elixir cd reduction, not for the minor cleanse trait.

    Ask Marauder Rifle pre hot, they took alchemy too, elixir s and x were the only elixirs in the build, are you sure they were forced for the elixir cleanse dude?

    BTW, asking for a nerf to condi burst on other classes is useless, theres always something new around, and i bet ya that reducing it to such levels would simply mean the full denial of condi builds in pvp, theres no way to make a viable condi build that doesnt burst, you need the burst considering people dont take more than 3 secs for start making use of their condi removals.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2018

    Sure. I won't guess at people's motives, but for me, it was always about packing as much condi cleanse in as possible alongside the other benefits. The point is that no build should feel like they have to run alchemy, and it's been locked in the meta pretty much since the launch of the game.

    It led to this situation where however much condi cleanse non-alchemy builds had, alchemy builds could have that + a lot more. This is tough for balance because it means either non-alchemy builds are inadequate and alchemy builds are balanced, OR non-alchemy builds have enough cleanse and alchemy builds have too much.

    I mean, you could give the same treatment to the other traitlines (explosions cleanse conditions, turret skills cleanse 1 condition, gadgets cleanse 1 condition), but I don't think this is the way to go. I'd rather have "enough cleanse" be a part of the base class (ie. on heal skills), and then have more unique traits per traitline.

    Re: nerf to other classes - they sort-of already did this in the last two patches. I think it's fine now, but I suspect they might nerf condi cleanse a bit in other classes (eg. ele) next patch to match what engi got in this one.

  • No profession in the game has condi clear on every heal skill. Also, let's look at things objectively right now:

    -Alchemy has exactly 1 minor trait that provides condi clear. Every other trait involves rewarding you for cleansing conditions which, outside of that minor trait, the Alchemy traitline itself does not help with at all.

    -Inventions has 2 traits with condi clear. Cleansing Synergy is ok for an Adept Minor and Anti-corrosion plating is stupidly specific given that only Engineer Elite specs have access to frequent protection pulses.

    Why was there a pressing need to specifically remove Alchemy's condi cleanse when it's in line with similar traits? It's a drastic hit to Alchemy and certain skills that don't even see much use like Elixir gun or Mortar Kit.

  • JETWING.2759JETWING.2759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2018

    Disagree with OP.
    Just equip elixir-c for cleanse.
    This change was amazing. Leave it as that.

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