Phantasms and my mechanical problems with it

So this thread came out of a long discussion with a friend and it is not about the viability or damage numbers so please don't bring your like or dislike about Mesmers in that regard here. My question is only about one specific thing and that is if you (Mesmer players) think that the phantasm change made your gameplay better flowing or less so.

We all had some time to adjust to the large changes made to phantasms now, but after learning to work with these changes I am very interested in more community opinions on that matter.Where i clashed with my friend was that he is a firm believer that class reworks, like the phantasm change, are only enacted when the developer feels that it makes a more fluid and active game and in turn creates more fun for the player (which makes sense and should be the aim for any developer).My opinion about the afformentioned changes run opposite to that assesment because with my Mesmer gameplay i feel the opposite is true for this class since the phantasm rework.

My main problem with it is the fact that you can only use certain skills (like ambush on clones or shatters) when your phantasms change into clones at this replacement still feels incredible awkward and in my opinion clunky, because, even after all this time since the change, it is still incredibly hard to confirm when the transformation from phantasm to clone is finished. There seems to be a certain void between the time of spawning the clones from a phantasm and the clone actually being able to participate in shatters or ambushes and this void time, for me, still feels just clunky.

I know a lot of Mesmer players really like the changes (maybe some just because the numbers look better) and the poll done before showed something like 70 - 30 in favor of the changes so my question is if anyone else has got similar issues with the feeling of playing around with the mentioned mechanics?

I hope I am not the only with the discomfort on this matter.

First I wasn't very happy about the changes to phants, because I played a power build and also used the Disenchanter a lot. Well, I'm still not happy but I adjusted my build to a Condi one and basically what previously phants did now the (staff-)clones do, instead of direct damage they apply condition damage. I use shatter skills more frequently but in group play only. I wait until the three black circles above the shatter skills are full, then I summon phants and after that I use a shatter skill. While the phants attack, the three clones become destroyed and nearly immediately three clones are available again (skills + signet). Shattering before summoning a phant feels to result in a too long gap with no active clones.

Maybe it'd be easier to identify when a phant turns into a clone, if the related sound was different to the one when clones become shattered/die/vanish?

Before the rework I liked Mesmer because of its utility and theme, while the rework made me fall in love with its gameplay.In regard to clones I keep an eye on the three circles that indicate my clones. Also after some hours of gameplay it became very intuitive since I use a "more or less standard rotation" depending on the encounter.If I remember correctly there is also a sound queue that plays whenever a phantasm transforms into clone.

Just to clear this up, I am not talking about the 'shatter' when the phantasms break and the clones spawn, but the time after that. I usually have an eye on the circles that indicate my number of active clones but even they seem to be inaccurate. I'm talking about the grace period between the spawning of the clones (and the appearance of the circle indication) and the time they are ready to shatter or ambush attack, because that timing is not the same. I don't know what the clones do in that time (maybe draw weapons?), but this delay and the inaccuracy are my problem.So far I seem to be the only one having that problem, so I am happy that others seem to be happy with it.

Why rely on phantasms to produce clones for your shatters/ambushes, though? Mirage in particular has way too many traits and skills that produce clones, that you should get 2-3 up easily, without waiting for your phantasms.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Why rely on phantasms to produce clones for your shatters/ambushes, though? Mirage in particular has way too many traits and skills that produce clones, that you should get 2-3 up easily, without waiting for your phantasms.

Because depending on your weapons and skills you can produce more clones by producing more phantasms. But a discussion about why or how to avoid the problem wasn't the intention of this thread.What i want to know if others have a similar problems and/or your experience with it.

I don’t think shatters are affected like ambushes are. Clones will always attempt to shatter if they’re registered on the circles. If you’ve noticed, they even break stun to shatter. Furthermore, it would be cheap if you had 3 circles up but only got a lv.2 shatter and all your clones were destroyed (because all of my clones disappear after a shatter, even ones transitioning from phants).

I haven’t touched mirage much so I can’t confirm with ambushes. Do clones break stun to do an ambush or Axes of Symmetry? When the clones change from phantasms, they DO draw weapons (as someone whose build spams phants, I see clones pulling out swords quite often), unlike other clone summoning skills - and this may very well be the small issue that you’re experiencing.

Additionally, it may be about the clone transition, it occurs ~1s after the phantasm attack and in the same position - if your phant manages to get massively displaced (say, the pistol phantasm who shoots from 900 range), it could be possible that a produced axe clone can’t do Imaginary Axes because the target is too far. It needs to get in range first, which all melee clones do.

Interesting that you observed the clones unsheathe their weapons, because i never observed any such action but it would make sense for the delay.In general it doesn't seem that anyone else feels the annoyance of the stutter that happens, because all the feedback here is either how to avoid it or what it could be with nobody seemingly having any problems with it.

Hmm, the only phantasm it truly feels fluid with is iMage - because it has a quick cast (though long windup) and flows well into things like axe 3.

But overall I agree the transition from phantasm to clone could be smoother, especially for phantasms with longer cast animations.

@Lanhelin.3480 said:Maybe it'd be easier to identify when a phant turns into a clone, if the related sound was different to the one when clones become shattered/die/vanish?

or have the colors (or the bar above shatters) change, (perhaps between a bright pink and a dark purple?)

Ok, I just did some very half-hearted horrible testing. I've mixed up the drawing weapons thing between clones and my phantasmal swordsmen. That aside, I tried to test the points I made earlier with the staff phantasm (summons 2, creates 2 clones) before quickly swapping to axe MH. Interestingly, although you summon 2 phantasms and the tooltip says 1200 range, 1 of the phantasms are likely to fire off first when used at max range, thus resulting in a clone being generated milliseconds before the other.

• The transition animation is fast, but it seems mismatched with the circles (i.e. circle pops up a tiniest of fraction of a second before the animation) I don't know about the sound since my computer can't play sound anymore.
• Clones will attempt to cast Imaginary Axes if they're not in range, they will run to the correct range first and then attack (sometimes they can run for bit, tested using a fence - they're pretty fast though). They should cast it though, no matter how delayed it may occur maybe unless you interrupt them first (not tested).
• No matter the distance, as soon as the circle pops up, clones should be ready to Axes of Symmetry with you (provided they ARE the correct clones).
• Watching your phantasms finish their attack animation will likely psyche you out and make you cast early. Casting when the animation triggers, at that exact moment (can't hear the sound), doesn't always guarantee that the clone is functional yet. Once the clones move, which happens really quickly, they are 100% functional.
• Watching circles should guarantee things are cast correctly. I don't claim this to be 100% true though.

I don't think it's very realistic to press shatters as soon as clones are produced so your reaction time should cover this invisible delay. Adversely, my 'delay' may not exist since I play with a permanent 200+ ping. Perhaps it may be internet related?

Edit: the clone 'appears' and is registered before the animation, which is weird.

Thank you for the testing, i myself looked closely at some timing but at least there is no animation to observe that would indicate that the clones have to unstash their weapons. The biggest transition hiccup (at least where 'feeling' the problem seems the most obvious for me) seems to be with staff and ambush attacks.I don't think ping is an issue here because usually my ping is pretty decent and i don't have problems anywhere else so that should not be a problem to consider, but it could amplify the problem.