Why didn't Istan resist? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Why didn't Istan resist?

NotASmurf.1725NotASmurf.1725 Member ✭✭✭

Vabbi fell because they were caught by the overwhelming forces of Joko, who then diverted the Elon river making both Kourna and Istan submit to him.

Kourna I understand, but what about Istan? It's an island with quite possibly the largest fleet in the region, home of the Sunspear oder, and they don't depend on the Elon for water. It has the military, supplies, and geography needed to survive.

Why did Istan yield? Any guesses?

Comments

  • Bad writing......

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Probably because Kourna was the most powerful of the provinces.

    Istan was willing to back an attack on Gandara in GW1 mostly because there was the hope that a quick, decisive strike could knock Varesh out before she'd gathered too much power. However, there would have been no hope of achieving that against Joko, and once Kourna capitulated, the leaders of Istan probably decided that they just didn't have the ability to resist.

    Whether they were right is another matter, but I could see why they'd throw in the towel under the circumstances.

  • I don't think Istan is actually part of Joko's empire - or at least I hope it isn't. Istan should have the strongest navy of all the Elonan nations; strong enough to be able to enforce the island nation's independence by deterring an invasion from the mainland. Sure, with Joko's enormous supply of bodies - both living and undead - to throw into a war, Istan would probably lose in the long run, but the King himself is probably a lot smarter than to wage a needless war - and thus weaken his armies and ferment opposition against his rule in Vabbi and Kourna - against something he doesn't need to conquer. I think they drafted a treaty in which the Istani Council of Elders retain their sovereign governance over Istan but they pay some tribute to King Joko and have an embassy/consulate in Kamadan for Joko's ambassadors or a permanent Mordant Crescent representative.

  • JayMack.8295JayMack.8295 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2017

    Istan's a vassal state like Kourna is - that's mentioned in Movement of the World. They provide resources to Joko when he requires it basically, though I believe vassal is usually confined to military resources - not sure what a vassal state would be in Guild Wars 2 terms.

    I imagine Joko has high-ranking officials (possibly Mordant Crescent) stationed in Kourna and Istan to keep an eye and make sure no large rebellion happens, but other than that, I think he mostly leaves them be.

    Also keep in mind that with Vabbi and Kourna under his control mostly, Istan lost trade partners. It would only have been a matter of time for Joko to rule Istan or completely obliterate it via a war of attrition, especially considering his armies are undead and he doesn't die of old age. Istan had no chance of winning that war, so I expect their leaders just agreed to his Vassal terms to ensure it and their citizens survival.

  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    How much do we actually know of Elona south of Vabbi at this point? His northern border is pretty clearly marked out, and those who claimed the Windswept Haven as a guild hall dealt a blow against the Mordant Crescent, but we don't know that much about Kourna or Istan. Now Kourna is probably conquered, because leaving that big a land mass to plot against you is just suicidal. Istan, however, is an island nation. While it can probably sustain itself for a little while, feed its population and such, it's probably under siege for anything it has to import. As such, the island would be in a state of attrition, and would eventually fall. Especially if Joko could get a stronghold somewhere on the island. If they succumbed, it'd only be so that they didn't get steamrolled by the Awakened and wiped out like the centaurs apparently were, or worse.

  • Keep in mind that Istani's navy was completely devastated by Kourna during Nightfall. While they did have 60 years to rebuild before Joko's invasion began (despite the blog post timeline saying Joko conquered Elona in 1175 AE as opposed to 1135 AE, NPC dialogue in-game state that the Sunspears fell / Joko began his Mordant Crescent crusade "about 200 years ago"), that wouldn't be enough to withstand the combined might of Kourna, Vabbi, Corsairs, and Awakened had Joko used all the resources as before and what he gained with Kourna succumbing due to famine.

    So when Istan fell to Joko, the strongest military and the most independent military - Kourna and the Sunspears respectively - had also already fallen to Joko. Istan could have struggled, but that would just lead to inevitable defeat.

    That said, Kourna and Istan are both outright stated to be vassals in the Movement, so they would still hold their own sovereign governance but owe fealty to Joko (which is where Amnoon is going per dialogue, if you chose for Amnoon to accept Joko's aid). Only Vabbi and the Desolation are under direct control of Joko.

    @Thalador.4218: Given Joko had also sent golems to assassinate the leaders of Cantha and Kryta, I expect that Joko is willing to play the long game for total human nation control, so a "long war" with Istan is something he'd be willing to go with if needed. Just like he's willing to wait for Amnoon to have a crisis and send "diplomatic aid" to take advantage of the situation.

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  • witcher.3197witcher.3197 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2017

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Keep in mind that Istani's navy was completely devastated by Kourna during Nightfall. While they did have 60 years to rebuild before Joko's invasion began (despite the blog post timeline saying Joko conquered Elona in 1175 AE as opposed to 1135 AE, NPC dialogue in-game state that the Sunspears fell / Joko began his Mordant Crescent crusade "about 200 years ago"), that wouldn't be enough to withstand the combined might of Kourna, Vabbi, Corsairs, and Awakened had Joko used all the resources as before and what he gained with Kourna succumbing due to famine.

    Can we talk about how the blogpost timeline makes no sense? Griffon storyline spoilers:

    it's revealed that Tahlkora is the last Spearmarshal, who got blinded and her tongue was cut out on Joko's orders. If it happened around 1175 AE then she was approximately 120 years old at that point which is hard to believe.

  • Doesn't seem that far fetched to me.

    Even if we can compare fantasy life expectancies (of normal humans) to the real world (and assume the events described take place when she was 120 years old), she was a monk and might be able to extend her life somewhat by self-healing. 120 isn't that much longer than humans in the real world can manage, if they manage stay healthy.

  • ArenaNet has a long standing issue when it comes to timetables... Especially in the time gap between gw1 and gw2. On one hand they treat 200 years (let alone 250) as "ancient" and a very ,very long time indeed (see Tarir Priory ambient dialogue for example). But on the other hand, only two or three generations have passed (see Gwen's Grave for example)!

    As for when the Sunspears were broken - the first scout you meet in Desert Highlands mentions that the Mordant Crescent was formed "about 200 years ago". So if Tahlkora was the last Spearmarshal, she would have died ~60 years after Nightfall. Joko might have finished conquering Elona in 1175, but if he started his campaign to ruin his enemies in 1135 as the Movement says, then it makes sense. It's improbable for him to have conquered Vabbi, Kourna, and Istan in only a few years after all - for the whole campaign to crush Elona and the Sunspears to take about 40 years, that makes some sense.

    It is also probable that the blogpost had a typo in 1175 AE, given it did in the Primeval Dynasty's length (saying it lasted roughly 250 years when it lasted about 650).

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  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thalador.4218 said:
    I don't think Istan is actually part of Joko's empire - or at least I hope it isn't. Istan should have the strongest navy of all the Elonan nations; strong enough to be able to enforce the island nation's independence by deterring an invasion from the mainland. Sure, with Joko's enormous supply of bodies - both living and undead - to throw into a war, Istan would probably lose in the long run, but the King himself is probably a lot smarter than to wage a needless war - and thus weaken his armies and ferment opposition against his rule in Vabbi and Kourna - against something he doesn't need to conquer. I think they drafted a treaty in which the Istani Council of Elders retain their sovereign governance over Istan but they pay some tribute to King Joko and have an embassy/consulate in Kamadan for Joko's ambassadors or a permanent Mordant Crescent representative.

    Considering the state the Sunspears are in, I think Joko has at least enough of a presence in Istan to make sure that the Sunspears (and members of the Ossa clan) aren't able to use it as a base. What we're shown seems to indicate that the Sunspears were militarily defeated in Vabbi (which, again, our GW1 PCs apparently didn't take part in, despite being younger than Dunkoro...), but if Istan was holding out... well, that's where the Sunspear headquarters were, and the fact that there are still some even now suggests that they could have rebuilt if they still had their headquarters. Whatever Istan's status is, they surrendered sufficiently that the Sunspear headquarters on Istan is no more.

    Another consideration is that Joko seems to be basing his claim on Elona through being the last of the Primeval Kings (although the PKs themselves are claiming that's not the case). On that basis, it'd be a point of pride to make sure that Istan is part of his empire. Heck, he might even have resettled Fahrunar.

  • I hardly think that Istan had a choice to resist. If we take the Quests in Nightfall serious, Joko was building up his army the moment he was freed. We even helped him. At that point the sunspears, Istans main force was still decimated and streched thin, trying to stop Abbadon.. Gendara happened after all. And somehow I doubt that the sunspears (and kourna for that matter) could rebuild their military power fast enough to compete with a powerfull necromancer who just needs to raise already trained troops.

  • Assic.2746Assic.2746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017

    Istan is an island country. They were getting their food and resources mainly from the corsairs from the main continent. So it's easy to imagine that when Joko won against the Vabbi and Kourna they simply had to submit. Either that or starvation. Trade blockade etc.

    There is a second option though... full on invasion of Awakened.