another god related question (spoilers for gw1 and 2) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

another god related question (spoilers for gw1 and 2)

Lucas.3718Lucas.3718 Member ✭✭

I was wondering, again about something regarding Balthazar and Abaddon. I really love Gods, mostly evil ones that i like to kill.
Where are they, now that they are dead ?
it is said that the mists is the place where mortals go. there are certain plains of existence revealed to us that are described to be, where the dead go: the underworld (grenths ex-domain, since he left it behind, now dhuums) and the realm of torment. something you could describe as hell in the guild wars universe.

A little bit of story: back then, as magic was given to the mortal races,king doric,the king of the united human races, trembled before the sight of the humans, fighting over the Magic stone and traveled to the holy city of Arah to speak with the gods, begging them to take the magic away. the gods agreed and shattered the stone into five different stones and sealed them with the kings blood, thus giving them the name "bloodstones". These Bloodstones (four of them representing the four magic schools of Aggression, Destruction, Presurvation and Denial, and a fifth bloodstone as the keystone, with the power to reassable the Bloodstone) where tossed into the Volcano "Abaddons Mouth". Later durring an erruption, four of the pieces where spread across Tyria, leaving one on the Ring of Fire Isle Chain. This act slowed down the flow of magic, weakening those practicing magic. Abaddon, furious about this act, waged war against the other gods - and ultimatly lost. Now a prisoner, Abaddon had been banished into the realm of torment, a plain of existence that could be described as hell, since in this specific realm we encounter in gw1 both Shiro Tagachi and the Lich and have to fight them, a realm full of demons.

Now with that in mind, Balthazar did somewhat follow abaddons footsteps. While abaddon wanted all the races to experiance the full potencial of magic and balthazar wanted as much magic and power as possible, they both waged war on the gods. the only difference, abaddon acually made it into a war and ultimatly lost and balthazar, stripped of most of his power, lost on tyria to the personal character. But since it is said for every being that dies that they go to the mists, where did the gods go once they die?
For Balthazar, it would kinda make sense that he would be chained up in the realm of Torment, damned to stay there forever, but we already killed Abaddon inside the Realm of Torment, a realm of the dead. So where did he go? His magic got absorbed by Kormir and thus she became a godess herself but, what about Abaddons spirit, his consciousness ?

I apologize for grammatical mistakes

Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That which wasnt absorbed by Kormir and merged with her was utterly obliterated as far as I remember

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    It does seem that the Gods are mostly spiritual beings, not beings of flesh and bone. So destroying a God does seem to destroy their soul. Though I do not feel that we know anything for 100% certain. It does seem like some of Abaddon was absorbed by Kormir, though.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    It's difficult to say. With Abaddon he is gone gone because his essence was entirely absorbed by Kormir.

    However, as we can see from the recent story episode regarding Balthazar's sword, that we use to lure Kralkatorrik, it both still had magic attributed to Balthazar himself, and was NOT corrupted from lying about in the Brand, or corrupted/damaged even from proximity to Kralkatorrik himself.

    Balthazar was also not a God when he died, which means his soul could feasibly go to the Underworld. See the Judge's parting comment to the Pact Commander before they were resurrected: "Remind Balthazar that not even the Gods escape judgement."

    Usually, when a follower of Grenth refers to judgement, they refer to being judged by Grenth himself, rather than just being killed.

    I think it would be feasible to see a resurrected Balthazar, having learned his lesson in the most complete way, being given the Divine magic that was previously his back by the others once he's proven himself in helping/being critical to killing Kralkatorrik, and has demonstrated that he knows that what he tried to do was wrong.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    Dialogue at the end of Nightfall suggests that Abaddon's mind and soul was absorbed by Kormir, this would suggest that his "soul" would be in her. Taking this for Balthazar would mean that Balthazar's soul would have been absorbed by either Kralkatorrik or Aurene or both, which flows with the theme of Balthazar's Sword's actions in the latest episode (and Zafirah's reactions).

    That is, if the Six Gods even have a soul like your typical mortal. They're gods after all, and no longer living beings as mortals know (source 1 and source 2), so nothing says that the rules would be the same for them.

  • @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    It's difficult to say. With Abaddon he is gone gone because his essence was entirely absorbed by Kormir.

    However, as we can see from the recent story episode regarding Balthazar's sword, that we use to lure Kralkatorrik, it both still had magic attributed to Balthazar himself, and was NOT corrupted from lying about in the Brand, or corrupted/damaged even from proximity to Kralkatorrik himself.

    Balthazar was also not a God when he died, which means his soul could feasibly go to the Underworld. See the Judge's parting comment to the Pact Commander before they were resurrected: "Remind Balthazar that not even the Gods escape judgement."

    Usually, when a follower of Grenth refers to judgement, they refer to being judged by Grenth himself, rather than just being killed.

    I think it would be feasible to see a resurrected Balthazar, having learned his lesson in the most complete way, being given the Divine magic that was previously his back by the others once he's proven himself in helping/being critical to killing Kralkatorrik, and has demonstrated that he knows that what he tried to do was wrong.

    I dont believe it is going to be that easy. The whole reason why Balthazar didnt follow the other gods in their exodus and wanted to stay in tyria, is that he IS the god of WAR and fire. As he himself said in the pof living story: "Cowards, I will not run away from conflict. I AM CONFLICT". This implies that his persona is build arounf war, conflict. Hell some people even gave him the title "God of Massmurder" and he was ok with that, because he was the god of war and war means millions of dead. Meaning that if we assume that Balthazar would indeed be ressurected, and he would learn his lesson, then it would make him kinda the god of dare i say nothing. he would be just someone who happened to have divine powers using them with reason. War is never about reason, and Balthazar was hellbent on killing the dragons. so much so that his ambition would lead him to even kill the other gods (his brothers and sisters). so as you can see, the chances that he would see reason in what he has done and join our forces just because he realized that everything he did was wrong, wouldnt quite do it. a ressurection could be possible somehow but his personality wouldnt be that nice. the only reason he would join forces with you is that both of you would have somthing from it. a symbiotic relationship so to say. and even after that he would eiter call it even and leave us be or he would start another war, hoping that this time he would be victorious.

  • @Lucas.3718 said:
    I was wondering, again about something regarding Balthazar and Abaddon. I really love Gods, mostly evil ones that i like to kill.
    Where are they, now that they are dead ?
    it is said that the mists is the place where mortals go. there are certain plains of existence revealed to us that are described to be, where the dead go: the underworld (grenths ex-domain, since he left it behind, now dhuums) and the realm of torment. something you could describe as hell in the guild wars universe.

    A little bit of story: back then, as magic was given to the mortal races,king doric,the king of the united human races, trembled before the sight of the humans, fighting over the Magic stone and traveled to the holy city of Arah to speak with the gods, begging them to take the magic away. the gods agreed and shattered the stone into five different stones and sealed them with the kings blood, thus giving them the name "bloodstones". These Bloodstones (four of them representing the four magic schools of Aggression, Destruction, Presurvation and Denial, and a fifth bloodstone as the keystone, with the power to reassable the Bloodstone) where tossed into the Volcano "Abaddons Mouth". Later durring an erruption, four of the pieces where spread across Tyria, leaving one on the Ring of Fire Isle Chain. This act slowed down the flow of magic, weakening those practicing magic. Abaddon, furious about this act, waged war against the other gods - and ultimatly lost. Now a prisoner, Abaddon had been banished into the realm of torment, a plain of existence that could be described as hell, since in this specific realm we encounter in gw1 both Shiro Tagachi and the Lich and have to fight them, a realm full of demons.

    Now with that in mind, Balthazar did somewhat follow abaddons footsteps. While abaddon wanted all the races to experiance the full potencial of magic and balthazar wanted as much magic and power as possible, they both waged war on the gods. the only difference, abaddon acually made it into a war and ultimatly lost and balthazar, stripped of most of his power, lost on tyria to the personal character. But since it is said for every being that dies that they go to the mists, where did the gods go once they die?
    For Balthazar, it would kinda make sense that he would be chained up in the realm of Torment, damned to stay there forever, but we already killed Abaddon inside the Realm of Torment, a realm of the dead. So where did he go? His magic got absorbed by Kormir and thus she became a godess herself but, what about Abaddons spirit, his consciousness ?

    I apologize for grammatical mistakes

    What you a merely mortal, an insignificant grain of dust in front of the greatness of a true God can kill are not Gods. They are named gods. This is the reason you can kill them. It is a difference between someone named god and an entity being a God.

    The farce presented to us by ANet lore team regarding the "gods" should stop. Because according to the story every single entity (even mortals) can become a god. Look at this - this are the official explanations: Abaddon was one of the Six Gods, a fallen predecessor of Kormir. He was the God of Knowledge and Water,[1] titled Keeper of Secrets and Lord of the Everlasting Depths, and associated with the watery depths, knowledge, and magic. He was succeeded by Kormir, while Lyssa later adopted dominion over water.

    So, it is something wrong with the domain giving the "god" his status - these domains already exists, you should only claim one. If you have enough magic power (or sheer will or .... something - an artifact from the other imposters gods) you can claim an unclaimed domain. And became God. As we can see, the domain of Secrets (or Knowledge) was not claimed by someone. This makes Abbadon technically alive in my opinion, despite the Kormir statements (and despite what the other lore team members will say - they have the right to ignore Abbadon and to consider it dead, but the story contradicts them).

    Abbadon was not furious about sealing the magic. Look at the history: "According to the History of Tyria, the gods sealed the stones with Doric's blood and placed his bloodline in charge of guarding the stones." You see - the gods. No mention regarding any opposition from Abbadon.
    Abbadon rebellion because of the sealing of magic is the reason given to us by the other gods. Trying to justify their betrayal to the human race. Why betrayal? Look further to the history:

    "And so it came to pass that Jadoth, being persecuted by the horrific Forgotten armies, and hounded from his home, did seek refuge among the cooling mists of the Crystal Sea. Untold weeks passed as Jadoth huddled in his sanctuary, with nothing to see save the endless ripples of the boundless ocean.
    On the 51st day of his exodus, a frightful sight manifested before Jadoth's eyes: the unmistakable shape of Forgotten warships upon the horizon's shimmering edge.
    And prayed Jadoth, "Abaddon! Lord of the Everlasting Depths, Keeper of Secrets, open mine eyes and bestow upon me the knowledge of the Abyss that I might smite mine enemies and send them to the watery depths!"
    An unsettling silence swept across the waves. The twilight sky shattered and stars streaked down upon the Forgotten armada. The seas boiled and ruptured, and gave birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void.
    And thus was magic gifted to Jadoth, chosen of Abaddon, the first of the Margonites."

    And now, let's see: The Forgotten, the race tasked by the gods to watch over the human race and protect it, are hunting humans. They already killed thousands of them. For the guilt to "desecrate the faces of the gods statues". Really? For this reason they killed a lot of humans. Humans they were supposed to protect.
    What was Abbadon's reaction? - He destroyed the idiotic Forgotten - the guardians turned into murderers.
    This was the moment the other gods interferes. To protect the race killing the humans and to make sure no one will protect the humans against their will again.

    That the reason for Abbadon revolt is an invented one, only to deceive the humans is proven by the: The phrase "act with magic, act within reason, act without mercy" is attributed to Abaddon's teachings. The Abbadon's followers were almost fanatics - they literally followed the teachings. I don't think that persons "acting with mercy" are so dangerous for the world to justify the Forgotten mass murdering them. So, in my opinion the Forgotten were tools used by the other gods to make Abbadon react. By the way - Abbadon destroyed the Forgotten and not attacked the gods. As an answer to this the Gods attacked Abbadon.

    I don't want to write a book here regarding this, so I will skip Balthazar episode.

    My personal conclusions are as follow:
    1. The gods are a bunch of imposters. They are everything you want except Gods. They are named gods but they are not Gods.
    2. The god status being related by a domain makes Abadon technically (if not alive) at least not dead. The domain of Secrets (or Knowledge) is not claimed by someone.
    3. The same with Dhuum - he is not dead because nobody claimed his domain.
    4. Until now the gods acted against the human race several times.
    5. The lack of knowledge of the so called gods (even after thoiusand of years of existence) makes me to question the fact they are really intelligent beings.
    6. We don't know what happened with the domains of Balthazar. If it was claimed, then by who? If not claimed, then Balthazar may return.

    WHOW! Theoretically, being killable (mortals with other words) the gods should go to the Dhuum domain after dead. This may be a good reason to replace him with a more friendly "godling" - the son of Dwayna, making the dead a family business.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    They very much are Gods in the same vein as the Greek pantheon was considered and D&D gods are. You do not need power over all creation and be omniscient to be a god in the setting, with many such examples in other settings to draw upon to support this.

    Using your logic, the likes of Tyr, Mystra, Corellon, Moradin, Helm, Tiamat, Bahamut etc from D&D are "imposters" and not actually gods when all setting material says that they very much are.

    Zeus, Ares, Athena, Hades, Poseidon etc also would not be considered gods using your logic.

    The GW2 Gods are called such because that is what they are. No debate. The setting material, from an out of universe perspective, says so.

    Neither has the Tyrian Pantheon ever acted against the whole of humanity as you claim. (Grenth also took Dhuum's domain)

  • @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Using your logic, the likes of Tyr, Mystra, Corellon, Moradin, Helm, Tiamat, Bahamut etc from D&D are "imposters" and not actually gods when all setting material says that they very much are.

    Zeus, Ares, Athena, Hades, Poseidon etc also would not be considered gods using your logic.

    I see no problem with either of these. Whether you view them as gods or "imposters" changes only your relation to them.

    The GW2 Gods are called such because that is what they are. No debate. The setting material, from an out of universe perspective, says so.

    This seems pretty silly to me. According to the wiki, Norn view them as spirits, Charr view them as things to fight, Asura view them as parts of the eternal alchemy, and Sylvari view them as human royalty. Clearly, not all in-universe believe them to be gods, so I don't see a problem with players questioning this as well. The "gods" are called gods because they are worshiped by humans.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    "They view them", crucial context there, that's an in universe statement. Out of universe, they have been called Gods and named such by the creators of the setting. The views of the other races are incorrect (outright in the case of the sylvari), or correct from a certain point of view, within the lense of their own culture. Because the Norn view them as Spirits does not stop them from being Gods for example, similarly them being part of the Eternal Alchemy does not preclude them from being Gods. Not difficult logic to grasp.

    (Side note, Forgotten and Dwarves at the very least also referred to them as Gods, that's 3 different races calling them Gods versus the myriad of independent viewpoints from other races, which is more correct? I think the Forgotten and the Dwarves are much more reliable authorities on the nature of the Gods than sylvari or charr)

    It's not a matter of perspective when it comes to out of universe declaration that they are Gods, it's a matter of fact. People who question that are mixing in universe and out of universe.

    In universe it's perfectly fine to say that the Gods might not actually be Gods, but we as players know that they ARE Gods because the creators of the setting have SAID so, just because people might believe differently does not make them right.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @Edelweiss.4261 said:

    The GW2 Gods are called such because that is what they are. No debate. The setting material, from an out of universe perspective, says so.

    This seems pretty silly to me. According to the wiki, Norn view them as spirits, Charr view them as things to fight, Asura view them as parts of the eternal alchemy, and Sylvari view them as human royalty. Clearly, not all in-universe believe them to be gods, so I don't see a problem with players questioning this as well. The "gods" are called gods because they are worshiped by humans.

    While norn do view them as "Spirits of Action" that doesn't make them any less than dieties, norn just have a different term for them, and that doesn't make the norn correct. The charr and asura do view them as gods, just not in the same light as humanity, but gods all the same. Sylvari do not view them as human royalty, in large sylvari don't know how to view them because they don't see ancient stories as proof of their existence (this, sadly, was an overlooked potential side plot with PoF).

    There really isn't a group that claims the Six Gods are not gods at all.

    They're called gods because, ultimately, that's what they are. Gods in every single polytheistic setting will not be akin to the monotheistic or Abrahamic god that most people associate the term "god" with nowadays. Gods are unaging, but not unkillable; gods are not omnipotent nor omniscient. Even in some of the Abrahamic settings, Yehweh is not omnipotent and omniscient.

    People of monotheistic faiths (especially the three Abrahamic faiths) put a lot more weight onto the term "god" and put a lot higher qualifications than has ever been placed upon the term before.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2018

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    So, it is something wrong with the domain giving the "god" his status - these domains already exists, you should only claim one. If you have enough magic power (or sheer will or .... something - an artifact from the other imposters gods) you can claim an unclaimed domain.

    There are really only seem to be six domains, the rest being superficial and mutable. Dhuum was not a god of ice or darkness by any and all accounts, Grenth was associated with both before his ascension into godhood. Dhuum was merely the god of death and that's what Grenth took. Abaddon was the god of knowledge and that's what Kormir took. By association, the "true domains" of the Six are Life, Nature, Beauty, Knowledge, Death, and War. Everything else appears to be mutable, viable, changable, and is determined by their desire and personality not their divinity.

    And became God. As we can see, the domain of Secrets (or Knowledge) was not claimed by someone. This makes Abbadon technically alive in my opinion, despite the Kormir statements (and despite what the other lore team members will say - they have the right to ignore Abbadon and to consider it dead, but the story contradicts them).

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Abbadon was not furious about sealing the magic. Look at the history: "According to the History of Tyria, the gods sealed the stones with Doric's blood and placed his bloodline in charge of guarding the stones." You see - the gods. No mention regarding any opposition from Abbadon.

    You're wrong. Keep in mind that the History of Tyria document is an in-universe textbook that was written after the knowledge of Abaddon was erased from human history. In other words, the History of Tyria is a false history, rewritten by the victors (the other five gods and Thaddeus LaMount).

    The History of Tyria doesn't mention Abaddon, nor the rebellion or the war that led to the Exodus of the Gods, so naturally it would not denote that one god disagreed with sealing magic.

    Abaddon's rebellion indeed began with the sealing of magic:

    Abaddon's fall was not overnight, but the evil that was budding in his heart had many long years to simmer. For thousands of years, he always acted as a bridge between the Realm of the Gods and Tyria. When the gods decided to gift magic to the world, it was Abaddon who rose up to the task. Spreading the light of wisdom to all the races, he gave freely the gift of magic - the natural ability to manipulate this force - to those races he deemed to possess both the capacity of thought as well as hidden potentials. Unfortunately, Abaddon was clearly overly generous, and too many of the races received his attention. Rapidly, these civilizations rose to prominence and became enamored with their mysterious benefactor, with many exclusively worshiping him. The Five, however, felt both neglected and disrespected. They were both concerned with their own plight as well as the nature of the world - Abaddon was becoming increasingly reckless and could endanger the world. To solve this issue, they created a Bloodstone, which split the powers governed by Abaddon into four parts, in turn weakening the strength of the intelligent races so that they may no longer drive each other to extinction. Abaddon was furious, and protested strongly to his brothers and sisters, but his pleas were ignored. His fury would eventually blind those once far-seeing eyes, and making him lose the logic in which he valued so highly.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160304180141/http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/76125-why-abaddon-turned-evil/page__st__30#entry2100579

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    And now, let's see: The Forgotten, the race tasked by the gods to watch over the human race and protect it, are hunting humans. They already killed thousands of them. For the guilt to "desecrate the faces of the gods statues". Really? For this reason they killed a lot of humans. Humans they were supposed to protect.
    What was Abbadon's reaction? - He destroyed the idiotic Forgotten - the guardians turned into murderers.
    This was the moment the other gods interferes. To protect the race killing the humans and to make sure no one will protect the humans against their will again.

    You only have half of the story. The Margonites did more than just deface some statues. To continue the above quote:

    One particular tribe of humans lived exclusively on the high seas. The waters in which they sailed are now known as the Crystal Desert - known as the Crystal Sea at the time. During that time, it was a beautiful and bountiful place, nested between Tyria and Elona. The people there worshipped Abaddon exclusively, and upon hearing the news, they launched an attack on the Temple of the Six Gods, a great place of worship on the northern shores of Elona. They slaughtered the priests of the Five, desecrated the altars, and defaced the statues and scriptures within that holy place. While the Five were understandably furious, it was their mortal followers - the Forgotten - whose anger burned the brightest. A mighty legion was gathered - the likes which were not seen before - to quell Abaddon's insolent followers, and what followed was the largest naval battle ever seen in human history.

    So the Margonites not only defaced some statues, but denied the very right of worship of the other five gods and proclaimed Abaddon the One True God, they assaulted the largest and holiest temple dedicated to the other Six, and massacered the priesthoods of the five gods.

    And the Six Gods didn't intervene at the destruction of the Forgotten, the moment they intervened was after Abaddon began transforming the Margonites into the demonic entities we see them as in Nightfall. After Abaddon had declared war on the Five Gods and began sieging the Gates of Heaven.

    It was Abaddon, not the Five, who declared the war:

    The crude magics and technology of humanity was no match for that of the Forgotten, and their great armada was soon annihilated. The leader of one such tribe, Jadoth, has been drifting for fifty-one days when he fearfully noticed Forgotten ships appearing on the horizon. Desperately, he prayed to Abaddon for deliverance. Abaddon was silent for a long period of time. When he answered, however, the answer was clear. The waters beneath the Forgotten fleet began to bubble as large whirlpools formed. The sky - when it should be filled with dawnlight - was torn apart by abyssal colored tempests, and a fearsome devouring darkness appeared from beneath the forgotten fleet.

    No living being emerged from the endless darkness that came from beneath the waters, except for one. Jadoth. He became the first champion of Abaddon, and with him came the first of the Margonites. Hate and anger had overcame Abaddon completely, and with a vengeful declaration, war, once again, was declared upon the Gods.

    Abaddon was the mightiest of the gods, and for a while, the war went in his favor. In the end, however, he was no match for the combined strength of all the Five. At what is now known as the Mouth of Torment, the Five broke an entrance to that which is now known as the Mouth of Torment. Unwilling (note: this can be translated to both unable or unwilling, but I'm taking context into consideration) to destroy their brethren, Abaddon was imprisoned. At the same time, the Margonites were delivered a catastrophic stroke, and only a small fraction of them ended up becoming trapped alongside their masters.

    Though this stuff was pre-NF release lore, it's only been collaborated with in-game sources that are far more numerous and fragmented (so it's just easier to link this). The only thing that's been retconned since this has been the origin of the Bloodstone and the nature of spreading the gift of magic which is covered here.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    That the reason for Abbadon revolt is an invented one, only to deceive the humans is proven by the: The phrase "act with magic, act within reason, act without mercy" is attributed to Abaddon's teachings. The Abbadon's followers were almost fanatics - they literally followed the teachings. I don't think that persons "acting with mercy" are so dangerous for the world to justify the Forgotten mass murdering them.

    Did you read this correct? Abaddon's teaching is act without mercy, not act with mercy. You're contradicting your own citation.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    My personal conclusions are as follow:
    1. The gods are a bunch of imposters. They are everything you want except Gods. They are named gods but they are not Gods.
    2. The god status being related by a domain makes Abadon technically (if not alive) at least not dead. The domain of Secrets (or Knowledge) is not claimed by someone.
    3. The same with Dhuum - he is not dead because nobody claimed his domain.
    4. Until now the gods acted against the human race several times.
    5. The lack of knowledge of the so called gods (even after thoiusand of years of existence) makes me to question the fact they are really intelligent beings.
    6. We don't know what happened with the domains of Balthazar. If it was claimed, then by who? If not claimed, then Balthazar may return.

    1. Except we know that this is false. What makes them gods is their divinity, which while the vessel (e.g., Dwayna, Kormir, Grenth, etc.) are killable the power is indestructible. Six Gods must always exist, or else existence will be wiped out: "Yet the power of a god cannot be destroyed, and Kormir, making a choice that only a mortal could make, did take upon herself the mantle of the Goddess of Truth, with all its power and responsibility, all its dominion and duties." - Scriptures of Kormir
    2. Kormir is the Goddess of Truth, Knowledge, and Secrets. She has taken Abaddon's domain. Abaddon had the title god of secrets after he himself became a secret; before then, he was known as the god of wisdom. But ultimately, their domain is knowledge.
    3. Dhuum is not dead for his divinity was taken from him without killing him - same as Balthazar. One does not need to kill a god to replace him, just take their power. How one takes the power without killing the god is never clarified, but we know it has happened - twice.
    4. Not once have they done so, actually. Unless you're referring to Abaddon, Dhuum, and Balthazar after their respective falls from grace.
    5. And what lack of knowledge is there? I made a rather lengthy post about this before but it's been a while so searching's a pain, I was able to find a short-hand restatement of it though about what we know of the Six Gods:
    • Specific divine magic, which is indestructible and needs a host.
    • Has an aura that blinds mortals that look upon them.
    • Is capable of vast terraforming and transforming living beings.
    • Over generations, has a specific domain their specific divine magic is connected to. Related: the knowledge and power of previous gods combines with the knowledge and will of the replacement (when a god is killed).
    • Body breaks apart upon death, and appears to be hollow (no blood, muscle, etc.). Related: They themselves do not seem to be biologically alive; Kormir is said to have died upon ascending, while Balthazar was scanned and had no vitals registered, he merely registered on the scanner as pure magical energy.
    • Divinity can be stripped without killing the god, draining them of power but not restoring their biological design.
    • Unconfirmed but heavily implied: a single god cannot have the power of multiple gods nor can a god's power be divided (otherwise they would have split Abaddon's power among themselves).
      The only lack of knowledge there is, is where they came from.
    1. This is partially true. We aren't told what happened to Balthazar's divinity, just that it was removed from him. Balthazar, however, is dead. And based off of all pre-existing god lore, then Balthazar's divinity must have been put into a new mortal creating a new god of war. We just don't know who that individual is.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    WHOW! Theoretically, being killable (mortals with other words) the gods should go to the Dhuum domain after dead. This may be a good reason to replace him with a more friendly "godling" - the son of Dwayna, making the dead a family business.

    Not at all. Firstly, Dhuum was replaced by the son of Dwayna, not sure why you keep saying he wasn't. Secondly, as stated above, the gods' very existence is fundamentally different than that of mortals to such a degree that gods are not "living beings" and that 'ascension through killing' like with Abaddon results in the former god's knowledge and will being incorporated with the replacement, though the former god's will is (usually, perhaps?) broken. Present but incapable of doing anything.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    That the reason for Abbadon revolt is an invented one, only to deceive the humans is proven by the: The phrase "act with magic, act within reason, act without mercy" is attributed to Abaddon's teachings. The Abbadon's followers were almost fanatics - they literally followed the teachings. I don't think that persons "acting with mercy" are so dangerous for the world to justify the Forgotten mass murdering them.

    Did you read this correct? Abaddon's teaching is act without mercy, not act with mercy. You're contradicting your own citation.

    Thanks for correction. Acknowledged :).

    Still: You states that "There are really only seem to be six domains, the rest being superficial and mutable. Dhuum was not a god of ice or darkness by any and all accounts, Grenth was associated with both before his ascension into godhood. Dhuum was merely the god of death and that's what Grenth took. Abaddon was the god of knowledge and that's what Kormir took. By association, the "true domains" of the Six are Life, Nature, Beauty, Knowledge, Death, and War. Everything else appears to be mutable, viable, changable, and is determined by their desire and personality not their divinity."

    Do you have any source to support this theory? Because, if this is only a speculation, then the following description of Grenth: "Originally a half-god, he was the child of Dwayna and a mortal sculptor and the first god born of Tyria, with domain over mortality and judgment. As a god, he is attributed to the judgment of the dead, vengeance, and destruction" gives me right regarding the statement that any mortal can claim a domain - and the domains are more numerous than the domains claimed by the gods. As you see, Grenth already had the domain of mortality and judgement before his victory over Dhuum.

    Let's look at the relation Kormir-Abadon: Abaddon was the god of knowledge and that's what Kormir took.. I have serious doubts Kormir has any influence (ownership) over the Knowledge. Because, according to hers own followers: "In the present day the Church of Kormir worships the Goddess of Truth." Godess of Truth - not even a mention about Knowledge.
    That Kormir is not owning the Knowledge is proven by the fact she is not able to say what is with Abbadon - she don't know if she is Abbadon / is not Abbadon / or is both / or is none. She has no knowledge. Her speech resembles the famous Delphi Oracle - you can read it in any direction, from any starting point, giving you a valid sentence OR a totally irrational phrase - according with what you want to see. Also, the Truth =) - some doubts even here. If she don't know the truth regarding Abbadon then the truth is not her domain. But if she knows but instead of truth she delivers that nonsensical speech then she is a liar. The godess of Truth is a liar?!?!

    Let's advance to the start of the war: "You only have half of the story. The Margonites did more than just deface some statues. To continue the above quote:"
    One particular tribe of humans lived exclusively on the high seas. The waters in which they sailed are now known as the Crystal Desert - known as the Crystal Sea at the time. During that time, it was a beautiful and bountiful place, nested between Tyria and Elona. The people there worshipped Abaddon exclusively, and upon hearing the news, they launched an attack on the Temple of the Six Gods, a great place of worship on the northern shores of Elona. They slaughtered the priests of the Five, desecrated the altars, and defaced the statues and scriptures within that holy place. While the Five were understandably furious, it was their mortal followers - the Forgotten - whose anger burned the brightest. A mighty legion was gathered - the likes which were not seen before - to quell Abaddon's insolent followers, and what followed was the largest naval battle ever seen in human history.

    So: The followers of Abbdon killed peoples (even priests). "They slaughtered the priests of the Five, desecrated the altars, and defaced the statues and scriptures within that holy place".
    But - killing peoples, priests and destroying temples is something happening in every single conflict. Still this is the only time when the aggressors were instantly punished. Why in that moment? And why by the Forgotten?

    They acted as jury / judge / and executioner for peoples (peoples under the protection of Abbadon, by chance). This is a supreme arrogance from a race who was supposed to watch over and protect the human race. Unless they had orders from the other five. Turning them from protectors of the human race in jail guardians / repression force. If so, Abbadon not knowing this acted correctly destroying the Forgotten.

    So, your opinion that "And the Six Gods didn't intervene at the destruction of the Forgotten, the moment they intervened was after Abaddon began transforming the Margonites into the demonic entities" is not correct in my opinion. The five already interfered in this events long before Abbadon started turning its followers into demons.

    You say that: " It was Abaddon, not the Five, who declared the war" - this is what history tells us. But you also said: " In other words, the History of Tyria is a false history, rewritten by the victors (the other five gods and Thaddeus LaMount)". What credibility can have the first statement?

    But even so, in the official version is not clearly stated that Abbadon declared war: See the next two statements:
    -While the Five were understandably furious, it was their mortal followers - the Forgotten - whose anger burned the brightest.
    -Hate and anger had overcame Abaddon completely, and with a vengeful declaration, war, once again, was declared upon the Gods. - who launched the vengeful declaration? Abbadon? Or the Gods?

    So, the five were furious. Abbadon was furious. Conclusion - Abbadon started the war. Really?

    A few words regarding the last ..... explanation regarding the gods: **The divinity! **This (in my opinion) is one of the most not credible reasons the lore team can give us in order to make an imposter to play the role of god.

    According to what we know (and Konig mentioned this also), "the divine magic is indestructible and needs a host" and "Is capable of vast terraforming and transforming living beings".

    • Is this divine magic an entity? If YES is this entity intelligent? At least it developed self-awareness? Because if NO, then this "divine" energy is equivalent with "energy" and, as I said before, any mortal with enough power / sheer will / technological help/magical artifacts can absorb it becoming a god. Nothing special. Like dragons absorbing magic energy.
    • But if the divine energy IS intelligent, then this implies it controls the host - making it a kind of Goa'uld. WHAT?

    Anyhow, from my point of view, if something needs another thing to be ... then that something is NOT a god.

  • @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Do you have any source to support this theory? Because, if this is only a speculation, then the following description of Grenth: "Originally a half-god, he was the child of Dwayna and a mortal sculptor and the first god born of Tyria, with domain over mortality and judgment. As a god, he is attributed to the judgment of the dead, vengeance, and destruction" gives me right regarding the statement that any mortal can claim a domain - and the domains are more numerous than the domains claimed by the gods. As you see, Grenth already had the domain of mortality and judgement before his victory over Dhuum.

    Grenth is attributed as the god of death. Judgment of the dead is an attribute of being the god of death. Both Dhuum and Grenth were judges of the dead. Dhuum shows no relation to ice or darkness, unlike Grenth; he's only ever associated with death. If he had sub-domains, we do not know what they were, and there's no real show of him influencing anything beyond souls and minds, but the former is easily associated with death anyways.

    Grenth had no domain over mortality and judgment before ascending to godhood, you're taking the fan-written rewording from the wiki and taking it as gospel. The original statement is: Grenth, son of Dwayna, first god born of Tyria. His powers deal in mortality and judgment. Defeater of Dhuum, Lord of the Seven Reapers, he is the prince of ice and sorrow. The "powers in mortality and judgment" are part of his domain over death as the god of death.

    As for mortals claiming a domain - in a way, you're not wrong, but to do so they must usurp a god. Grenth had influence over ice as a mortal (as the "prince of ice and sorrow") but this is not a divine domain.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Let's look at the relation Kormir-Abadon: Abaddon was the god of knowledge and that's what Kormir took.. I have serious doubts Kormir has any influence (ownership) over the Knowledge. Because, according to hers own followers: "In the present day the Church of Kormir worships the Goddess of Truth." Godess of Truth - not even a mention about Knowledge.
    That Kormir is not owning the Knowledge is proven by the fact she is not able to say what is with Abbadon - she don't know if she is Abbadon / is not Abbadon / or is both / or is none. She has no knowledge. Her speech resembles the famous Delphi Oracle - you can read it in any direction, from any starting point, giving you a valid sentence OR a totally irrational phrase - according with what you want to see. Also, the Truth =) - some doubts even here. If she don't know the truth regarding Abbadon then the truth is not her domain. But if she knows but instead of truth she delivers that nonsensical speech then she is a liar. The godess of Truth is a liar?!?!

    Again, you're being too literal and focusing too much on semantics. Truth is a form of knowledge just as secrets and wisdom are. And again, you're relying too much on the fan made wiki's wording, and not on the verbatim wording. In Facing the Truth, the description under Kormir's health bar when selecting her is literally: Goddess of Knowledge and Truth And when we encounter her, she confirms Kasmeeer's statement that Kormir already knew the situation - she does have knowledge.

    And at the end of Nightfall, her statement isn't that she doesn't know if she is Abaddon or is not Abaddon, she outright states that she is Abaddon "and much more". Meaning that goddess-Kormir the combination of god-Abaddon and mortal-Kormir. There is no uncertainty in her statement except for momentary disorientation (like when one just wakes up, not surprising since the goddess-Kormir was literally just born) and uncertainty of how to explain the situation so it could be understood.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Let's advance to the start of the war: "You only have half of the story. The Margonites did more than just deface some statues. To continue the above quote:"
    -snip quote-
    So: The followers of Abbdon killed peoples (even priests). "They slaughtered the priests of the Five, desecrated the altars, and defaced the statues and scriptures within that holy place".
    But - killing peoples, priests and destroying temples is something happening in every single conflict. Still this is the only time when the aggressors were instantly punished. Why in that moment? And why by the Forgotten?

    I don't know where you're getting that such happens in every conflict, nor where you're getting that this is the only time the aggressors are punished. Because both would be wrong. I can't think of a single instance where a slaughter occurs and there is no seeking of retribution by others.

    Why the Forgotten? Because they were caretakers and balance maintainers, and devotees of the Six Gods. Their reaction is not uncommon in history, and is not too different from why some of the Crusades started. It's also left unclear, but it's entire possible that those slaughtered were Forgotten given that the Temple of the Six existed near / in a region primarily inhabited by Forgotten.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    They acted as jury / judge / and executioner for peoples (peoples under the protection of Abbadon, by chance). This is a supreme arrogance from a race who was supposed to watch over and protect the human race. Unless they had orders from the other five. Turning them from protectors of the human race in jail guardians / repression force. If so, Abbadon not knowing this acted correctly destroying the Forgotten.

    So, your opinion that "And the Six Gods didn't intervene at the destruction of the Forgotten, the moment they intervened was after Abaddon began transforming the Margonites into the demonic entities" is not correct in my opinion. The five already interfered in this events long before Abbadon started turning its followers into demons.

    I would disagree on three parts. First, Margonites held Abaddon as their patron god, but they were in no way under Abaddon's protection. The Six Gods had always shown to have a largely hands-off approach to things even before the Exodus. Secondly, the Forgotten were not charged with watching over and protecting the human race, instead they were charged with guiding and maintaining balance among ALL the races and humanity has already had a large standing history of invasions, overpopulation, and brutality. Thirdly, they do not need orders to act out, and by all evidence, the Forgotten indeed acted without orders.

    That isn't to say the Forgotten didn't overreacted - genocide over a single massacre caused by a group that probably didn't represent the whole of Margonites? Definitely an overreaction. But Abaddon's action to transform humans to wage war was also an overreaction. Ultimately, the entire conflict was caused no too dissimilar to World War 1 in fact - a series of overreactions by smaller powers that forced the hands of the larger powers they were allied with.

    Furthermore, what I quoted isn't my opinion or interpretation, but an actual piece of canon lore.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    You say that: " It was Abaddon, not the Five, who declared the war" - this is what history tells us. But you also said: " In other words, the History of Tyria is a false history, rewritten by the victors (the other five gods and Thaddeus LaMount)". What credibility can have the first statement?

    One is an in-universe document (History of Tyria), the other is an out-of-universe document (the lore on Abaddon). One is told by an unreliable narrator, the other is told by the word of god.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    But even so, in the official version is not clearly stated that Abbadon declared war: See the next two statements:
    -While the Five were understandably furious, it was their mortal followers - the Forgotten - whose anger burned the brightest.
    -Hate and anger had overcame Abaddon completely, and with a vengeful declaration, war, once again, was declared upon the Gods. - who launched the vengeful declaration? Abbadon? Or the Gods?

    So, the five were furious. Abbadon was furious. Conclusion - Abbadon started the war. Really?

    You're kind of twisting the document to fit your own desires here. That first statement about the Five being furious was TWO paragraphs above the statement of war being declared. This separates any connection between the two. Furthermore, there's two other very obvious things that show that it was Abaddon who declared war. Firstly, the grammar and syntax of that latter sentence has "with a vengeful declaration, war was declared upon the Gods" is supporting "hate and anger had overcome Abaddon completely". Abaddon is the subject of both portions of the segment - Abaddon had become overcome by hate and anger; Abaddon had a vengeful declaration. Secondly, and far more telling, is the objective of the sentence: "war was declared upon the godS". Gods, plural. Abaddon is singular, the Five is plural.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    A few words regarding the last ..... explanation regarding the gods: **The divinity! **This (in my opinion) is one of the most not credible reasons the lore team can give us in order to make an imposter to play the role of god.

    According to what we know (and Konig mentioned this also), "the divine magic is indestructible and needs a host" and "Is capable of vast terraforming and transforming living beings".

    • Is this divine magic an entity? If YES is this entity intelligent? At least it developed self-awareness? Because if NO, then this "divine" energy is equivalent with "energy" and, as I said before, any mortal with enough power / sheer will / technological help/magical artifacts can absorb it becoming a god. Nothing special. Like dragons absorbing magic energy.
    • But if the divine energy IS intelligent, then this implies it controls the host - making it a kind of Goa'uld. WHAT?

    Anyhow, from my point of view, if something needs another thing to be ... then that something is NOT a god.

    The divine power is special because there are only six. Dragons absorbing magical energy is not special because they can absorb any magic and, seemingly, become an Elder Dragon. But a human - or any mortal - who absorbs a lot of magic just goes crazy; Kormir could only absorb the divine power of Abaddon because she was blessed by the Five beforehand: In the end, the god's gift to Kormir was indeed integral to our victory. [...] The gift of the gods soaked up all that power and knowledge, however, turning Kormir into a goddess in her own right.

    Not any mortal can absorb the divine power, and simply absorbing a ton of power does not create a new divine power.

    This doesn't make the gods imposters, it merely makes them functionally different than your typical monotheistic and polytheistic gods (the latter being more akin to an entire race).

  • Could https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Divine_Fire in Augury Rock be the same type of magic that was used in PoF? Would explain why the human PC was not blinded by Abaddon or Kormir, if they was blessed by the gods in Gates of Madness also (" With their blessings, we then turned on Shiro and the Lich and defeated them for the last time. The only battle left for us was against the dark god Abaddon himself.")

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Grenth is attributed as the god of death. Judgment of the dead is an attribute of being the god of death. Both Dhuum and Grenth were judges of the dead. Dhuum shows no relation to ice or darkness, unlike Grenth; he's only ever associated with death. If he had sub-domains, we do not know what they were, and there's no real show of him influencing anything beyond souls and minds, but the former is easily associated with death anyways.

    A quick note regarding Dhuum´s attribute(s): While both Grenth and Dhuum are best known for being each other’s antithesis regarding their judgment of the dead, they also kind of mirror each other regarding their elemental attribute: Grenth is generally associated with ice and as such was the patron deity of water elementalists during GW1 days (way before Abaddon was revealed and the domain of water was later given to Lyssa), while there are a few hints that Dhuum was associated with green fire: There is the necromancer trait Dhuumfire, his green glow that was the part of his design that got changed the least between the games, and of course the fact that his signature attack Judgment of Dhuum deals fire damage in GW1. Because of that I would dare to say his most likely subdomain would deal with this kind of green spectral flames.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The divine power is special because there are only six. Dragons absorbing magical energy is not special because they can absorb any magic and, seemingly, become an Elder Dragon. But a human - or any mortal - who absorbs a lot of magic just goes crazy; Kormir could only absorb the divine power of Abaddon because she was blessed by the Five beforehand: In the end, the god's gift to Kormir was indeed integral to our victory. [...] The gift of the gods soaked up all that power and knowledge, however, turning Kormir into a goddess in her own right.

    Not any mortal can absorb the divine power, and simply absorbing a ton of power does not create a new divine power.

    This doesn't make the gods imposters, it merely makes them functionally different than your typical monotheistic and polytheistic gods (the latter being more akin to an entire race).

    Grenth also was a mortal when he absorbed Dhuum power. And we know nothing about Balthazar power - it may be very well be in the possession of a ... mortal.

    But not this is the real problem of the gods. In this moment the gods problem is very similar with the dragon problem. Let's try a parallel between the two:

    1. The Dragons were very credible as insanely strong enemy. Old and wise, having a lot of power they followed the cycle of absorption / release of magic in Tyria not disturbed by any opposition (not even when 5 ancient races formed an alliance against them). Until present days when the Commander has been born and ..... you know the story. Repeat - they were very credible antagonists. This credibility cracked (it was shattered) in the moment we found that killing the dragons will destroy Tyria - in this moment the Dragons and the World are very tight connected. Why this was a turning point? Because this raised some questions left unanswered by the devs (I will discuss only one):

      a. The question of the creation (and magic energy) - in a naturally formed World the dragons cannot exist. Why? Because they absorb the magic. And the magic left free can destroy the world. You see, they should exist from the first second of the World existence. This is against any law of evolution. First appears the support of life (the World), then the life.
      The explanation that the dragons appeared first in other part of the Universe and then they found Tyria and started to absorb the magic is not valid either. What happened when they had no magic? And if they were able to survive without magic, why they started to behave in this way in Tyria? So, in a naturally born World the dragons cannot exist and be what the devs stated they are. So, the only logical explanation is what we have left: Tyria and the dragons were created. By who? Not only we have no answer, but it seems that the story wants us to believe they were not created. But in a natural evolutionist world the dragons cannot exists - this is the dragon issue.

    2. The Gods - in the beginning they were credible as Gods - for the actual tyrian the stories with gods walking on the World and fights between mortal heroes and Gods are interesting but .... stories from the past. And now we found that the Gods not only returned, but we found that they have the status of god thanks to a mysterious "divine energy". This is the turning point where the gods started to look .... false. Let's forget the Balthazar madness (even if he is very old, knowing a lot of things - that means wise, or at least having more wisdom as a mortal). Let's forget the Kormir-Abadon episode (even if this tells us that every human can become god). This "divine energy" raises the same question as in the Dragon case:

    a. What appeared first? The Universe and the life or the divine energy? Let's suppose the divine energy was first: We know that this energy is unique, needs a host to manifest itself and has a very high destructive potential if left free. Without an Universe (and more of this without a life form) these 6 divine energy most probably created chaos and destruction in the dimension it existed. With so much destruction is very unlikely that some coherent form could ever appear. So, that means the Universe appeared first, then the life and then the "divine energy" - WHAT? Is this something defining a god? This is for the first time in a Creation story when the World created the Gods and not the Gods creates the World =). In my conclusion, in a naturally born Universe the gods cannot exist in the form they are presented now. Either the gods created the Universe - in this case being THE GODS, or they and the Universe were created by another entity. By who?

    I remember the Star Trek movie where captain Kirk encountered and defeated the old Greek Gods. In a later movie he encounters again Apollo and, finally we found that responsible for the "deity" is an .... internal organ who was able to transform the energy of the worships into .... other energy =) used by the "gods". By removing this organ, the God Apollo became the .... normal citizen Apollo.

    Exactly this we have in Tyria. The "gods" are a race of normal mortals having something equivalent with the "deity organ". In our case is "divine energy". BLEAH.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 - "This doesn't make the gods imposters, it merely makes them functionally different than your typical monotheistic and polytheistic gods (the latter being more akin to an entire race)".
    I have no objections to have gods with a different functionality than the typical gods. But in this case they have no functionality. They cannot even exist - according to what the lore team told us.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    a. The question of the creation (and magic energy) - in a naturally formed World the dragons cannot exist. Why? Because they absorb the magic. And the magic left free can destroy the world. You see, they should exist from the first second of the World existence. This is against any law of evolution. First appears the support of life (the World), then the life.

    Well, being inhospitable to human (etc) life doesn't mean inhospitable to all life.

    Of course, one solution to the paradox is to assume the dragons (or their predecessor) came from Somewhere Else. Either they were drawn by the magic of lifeless Tyria, or they were sealed there in order to avoid the metaphysical trouble associated with destroying them.

    Another solution would be to explain that Tyria didn't have as much ambient magic in its earliest days, before the dragons -- that something in the past caused the amount of available magic to increase later. Maybe an ancient civilization, or the dragons themselves, freed some vast store of magic and put it into circulation. The dragons may have even been created to save the world from that cataclysm.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2018

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Let's forget the Kormir-Abadon episode (even if this tells us that every human can become god)

    You ignored Konig's point here- what that episode told us is that it requires the blessing of at least one of the other gods in order for a mortal to become divine. That a human cannot become a god under their own power, even if they succeed in slaying one.

    So, in a naturally born World the dragons cannot exist and be what the devs stated they are. So, the only logical explanation is what we have left: Tyria and the dragons were created. By who? Not only we have no answer, but it seems that the story wants us to believe they were not created. But in a natural evolutionist world the dragons cannot exists - this is the dragon issue.

    I agree that neither work... but it's a false dichotomy. There's no reason to assume the only options are the modern scientific conception of unguided evolution and the modern theological conception of intelligent design. (Particularly not in a setting that's already demonstrated spontaneous creation through the Mists, a mindless force that nonetheless has a propensity for causing ordered forms to arise.) Perilisk's already laid out a few alternative options, so the only one I'll add is this- through S2, we were presented with experts who theorized that magic and the mind are intrinsically linked, and made some functional creations based on that premise. If that's the case, it may be that magic was unable to predate advanced life,and vice versa, which would mean that they developed in tandem and the risks of excess magic didn't manifest until some point after.

    This is for the first time in a Creation story when the World created the Gods and not the Gods creates the World =).

    It's not the first time at all! In most creation stories, the world- or rather, the primordial something that existed before the world was formed- came first, and either the gods or their predecessors spontaneously arose from it. The idea of all of reality stemming from the will of a divine being has never been the only idea presented, and my understanding is that for swathes of history it was in the minority, even if the religions that preach it are among the most populous today.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @perilisk.1874 said:

    Well, being inhospitable to human (etc) life doesn't mean inhospitable to all life.

    Of course, one solution to the paradox is to assume the dragons (or their predecessor) came from Somewhere Else. Either they were drawn by the magic of lifeless Tyria, or they were sealed there in order to avoid the metaphysical trouble associated with destroying them.

    Another solution would be to explain that Tyria didn't have as much ambient magic in its earliest days, before the dragons -- that something in the past caused the amount of available magic to increase later. Maybe an ancient civilization, or the dragons themselves, freed some vast store of magic and put it into circulation. The dragons may have even been created to save the world from that cataclysm.

    We all know that the dragons are much older than the humans. Or, at least they existed long before the first humans arrived in Tyria. So, when I wrote "First appears the support of life (the World), then the life" I had the dragons as the first candidates for a life form. But this does not change the fact that Tyria existed a period without the dragons regulating the magic.
    I also said that "The explanation that the dragons appeared first in other part of the Universe and then they found Tyria and started to absorb the magic is not valid either. What happened when they had no magic? And if they were able to survive without magic, why they started to behave in this way in Tyria?"

    From what we know, the magic energy is kind of indestructible. And you cannot create it - this is why the gods tried to seal a large amount of magic in the Bloodstones. Because they knew you cannot generate another magic. That means the quantity of magic in Tyria (free magic + magic absorbed by dragons) is constant.

    Your statement that: "Another solution would be to explain that Tyria didn't have as much ambient magic in its earliest days, before the dragons -- that something in the past caused the amount of available magic to increase later." - can be correct if we replace "that something in the past caused the amount of available magic to increase later." with "that something in the past brought the magic in Tyria." WHAT or WHO?
    And the presumtion that the dragons are from another place, they found Tyria as a good place and then released a large amount of magic energy ... makes no sense. Why they released the energy? Only to absorb it again?

    "The dragons may have even been created to save the world from that cataclysm." may be a good explanation. Still the question remains: if they were created, then by who?

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    You ignored Konig's point here- what that episode told us is that it requires the blessing of at least one of the other gods in order for a mortal to become divine. That a human cannot become a god under their own power, even if they succeed in slaying one.

    In my opinion, that blessing of the gods is an artifact. A magical one or a technological one or a combination. But an artifact. Give the mortals in Tyria enough time and it may be very possible that such an artifact to be created by the mortals. Maybe this is the reason the gods refuses to help the mortal races agains the dragons - they are affraid of an advanced (technically or magically advanced) Tyria.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    It's not the first time at all! In most creation stories, the world- or rather, the primordial something that existed before the world was formed- came first, and either the gods or their predecessors spontaneously arose from it. The idea of all of reality stemming from the will of a divine being has never been the only idea presented, and my understanding is that for swathes of history it was in the minority, even if the religions that preach it are among the most populous today.

    Well, that "primordial something" has two wayw of being explained:
    1. The creationist way - that "primordial something" is the ... pre Big Bang something. The modern physics can only say that we cannot know even a single thing about that (it "existed" before the existence of the time as we know.) OR
    2. The "primordial something" is the equivalent of the primordial chaos. The Gods were part of it - they transcended the time - we have no idea of "when" was that chaos, simply because the time did not exist at that moment. And the Gods decided to create a world gouverned by order and separated from this "something". So, that "primordial something" is not the world.

    A - this proves that a true god has no beginning. It existed before the birth of time.

  • not in this setting though

    that's the fundamental point people are making here, you're ascribing your own opinions on what makes a god on a setting where your opinions are wrong and that's not how it works

  • @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    But this does not change the fact that Tyria existed a period without the dragons regulating the magic.

    No? What if life predates Tyria? The Mists include other worlds, after all. Who is to say that Tyria is the first? What if the dragons came into being directly, as the first life? Or what if they did arrive from somewhere else? You ask what the dragons would've done without magic, but the Mists is chok-full of it; that is, in fact, the current problem with Kralkatorrik. It's not hard to picture a scenario where the Elder Dragons and magic were introduced to Tyria at the same time. There are more options than you're addressing.

    From what we know, the magic energy is kind of indestructible. And you cannot create it - this is why the gods tried to seal a large amount of magic in the Bloodstones. Because they knew you cannot generate another magic. That means the quantity of magic in Tyria (free magic + magic absorbed by dragons) is constant.

    The quantity total is constant, as far as the asura understand, anyway. The quantity in Tyria is not. When the gods entered the world, that was magic that hadn't been in Tyria. When revenants started pulling from echoes in the Mists, that was magic that hadn't been in Tyria. When souls- a source of magic- depart for the afterlife, that is magic that had been in Tyria leaving it. The magic that currently exists within Tyria, on the whole, may or may not be the magic that existed there from the outset. There are more options than you're addressing.

    Your statement that: "Another solution would be to explain that Tyria didn't have as much ambient magic in its earliest days, before the dragons -- that something in the past caused the amount of available magic to increase later." - can be correct if we replace "that something in the past caused the amount of available magic to increase later." with "that something in the past brought the magic in Tyria." WHAT or WHO?

    Why must it have been brought? Why couldn't it have been generated by natural processes that are no longer ongoing? Why couldn't it have sprang into being spontaneously, all at once? Why couldn't it have been locked up at the start in something like the Bloodstone and slowly leaked out, or co-developed with life, or be the essence of a vast magical being that sacrificed itself to create Tyria? There are more- you get the idea.

    And the presumtion that the dragons are from another place, they found Tyria as a good place and then released a large amount of magic energy ... makes no sense. Why they released the energy? Only to absorb it again?

    What if the dragons aren't here voluntarily? What if they didn't have a choice in releasing that energy, or what if it was necessary to start they're waking/sleeping cycle? Maybe they just didn't want to be indefinitely awake, or maybe magic tastes good and they don't mind letting it out so they can taste it again.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    You ignored Konig's point here- what that episode told us is that it requires the blessing of at least one of the other gods in order for a mortal to become divine. That a human cannot become a god under their own power, even if they succeed in slaying one.

    In my opinion, that blessing of the gods is an artifact. A magical one or a technological one or a combination. But an artifact. Give the mortals in Tyria enough time and it may be very possible that such an artifact to be created by the mortals. Maybe this is the reason the gods refuses to help the mortal races agains the dragons - they are affraid of an advanced (technically or magically advanced) Tyria.

    Or maybe it isn't. Maybe it's something fundamentally impossible to arrive at without already possessing divine resources. Maybe it was created in circumstances that could not possibly occur again. Or maybe it is a thing attainable by mortals, but those it matter? Without the blessing, whatever the blessing might constitute, it seems it's impossible for a mortal to become a god, and the only proven way to attain that blessing is through the consent of extant gods.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    It's not the first time at all! In most creation stories, the world- or rather, the primordial something that existed before the world was formed- came first, and either the gods or their predecessors spontaneously arose from it. The idea of all of reality stemming from the will of a divine being has never been the only idea presented, and my understanding is that for swathes of history it was in the minority, even if the religions that preach it are among the most populous today.

    Well, that "primordial something" has two wayw of being explained:
    1. The creationist way - that "primordial something" is the ... pre Big Bang something. The modern physics can only say that we cannot know even a single thing about that (it "existed" before the existence of the time as we know.) OR
    2. The "primordial something" is the equivalent of the primordial chaos. The Gods were part of it - they transcended the time - we have no idea of "when" was that chaos, simply because the time did not exist at that moment. And the Gods decided to create a world gouverned by order and separated from this "something". So, that "primordial something" is not the world.

    The two I've seen are Primordial Chaos and Primordial Being, an entity that transcended time and existence (much like your God) but may or may not have been sentient in the way we think of such things, and may or may not have died (sometimes gruesomely) in the process of bringing the world into being. For Choas, the gods and/or their predecessors typically arise spontaneously, being 'birthed' by the combination of elements but not existing until that 'moment'. The only one I can think of off the top of my head that had the gods also existing as timeless beings inside that chaos are some versions of the Egyptian myth, and even then, it wasn't the full set of Egyptian deities.

    A - this proves that a true god has no beginning. It existed before the birth of time.

    I... don't see how it does. Are you saying that every myth has a Something that existed Before, and that Something is therefore the 'true god'? If so, most true gods are not sentient, and are forces of destruction as much as creation.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    not in this setting though

    that's the fundamental point people are making here, you're ascribing your own opinions on what makes a god on a setting where your opinions are wrong and that's not how it works

    Are you suggesting that in your post you don't express your opinion? And moreover you are 100% sure that your opinion is true? Can you share with us some evidences that you are in the possession of the TRUE and we are wrong?
    For what purpose exists this Forum? I was under the impression that it exists to express opinions.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    No? What if life predates Tyria? The Mists include other worlds, after all. Who is to say that Tyria is the first? What if the dragons came into being directly, as the first life? Or what if they did arrive from somewhere else? You ask what the dragons would've done without magic, but the Mists is chok-full of it; that is, in fact, the current problem with Kralkatorrik. It's not hard to picture a scenario where the Elder Dragons and magic were introduced to Tyria at the same time. There are more options than you're addressing.

    It may be possible for other worlds to exist. It may not be possible. In this moment we are talking about Tyria. The fact that the dragons are not wanderers arrived on Tyria from other part is proven by the relation between Tyria - Dragons - Magic. If we kill the dragons the unbalance of Magic will destroy Tyria. Do you still think that the dragons were born in another part of the Universe? For me it seems they were almost "designed" to fulfill this role on this world.

    The quantity total is constant, as far as the asura understand, anyway. The quantity in Tyria is not. When the gods entered the world, that was magic that hadn't been in Tyria. When revenants started pulling from echoes in the Mists, that was magic that hadn't been in Tyria. When souls- a source of magic- depart for the afterlife, that is magic that had been in Tyria leaving it. The magic that currently exists within Tyria, on the whole, may or may not be the magic that existed there from the outset. There are more options than you're addressing.

    How are the souls a source of magic? And even if so, when leaving the life a soul carry some magic away from Tyria. What about when a soul is born in Tyria? It is not bringing the magic back? And, btw: A soul leaving Tyria is leaving it forever - he arrives in the domain of Grenth. WHO crates the new souls? And imbues them with magic? Dwayna? Melandru? What about the times where the gods were not in Tyria? This is why I have doubts about souls being **sources **of magic.
    But even if we consider your statements as true, then the action of sealing the magic into Bloodstones turns the gods into complete imbeciles. Because they did not know that the magic can be created/brought in Tyria. Even if in a part of your hypothesis the gods themselves were implied into this increase of magic.

    Why must it have been brought? Why couldn't it have been generated by natural processes that are no longer ongoing? Why couldn't it have sprang into being spontaneously, all at once? Why couldn't it have been locked up at the start in something like the Bloodstone and slowly leaked out, or co-developed with life, or be the essence of a vast magical being that sacrificed itself to create Tyria? There are more- you get the idea.

    We have no evidence that the magic energy can be created. And if what you say is true, then:

    • In case of generation by natural processes - this implies that the dragons were left for a very long period without magic. Or the relation Tyria-Dragons-Magic makes this impossible.
    • Appearing spontaneously all at one (with other words "brought" into Tyria) - this is why I asked WHAT or WHO generated this?

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Or maybe it isn't. Maybe it's something fundamentally impossible to arrive at without already possessing divine resources. Maybe it was created in circumstances that could not possibly occur again. Or maybe it is a thing attainable by mortals, but those it matter? Without the blessing, whatever the blessing might constitute, it seems it's impossible for a mortal to become a god, and the only proven way to attain that blessing is through the consent of extant gods.

    This is exactly what I said: With some help, any mortal can become god. You only reworded the phrase.

    Still, no matter if I'm right, no matter if I'm wrong, no matter if any of the posters on this topic is right or wrong, as long as the developers will not clarify the situation this kind of debates will continue. I don't think this is a bad thing. What I think is bad is the fact that (in my opinion, and only my opinion) the actual lore team lost the contact with the original story or the team did not understand the original story or the actual team not even try to understand the story. I'm afraid they have the freedom to write everything the management considers it will be a market success, without worrying to much to make the entire story a coherent piece.

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