Berserker Runes VS Renegade Runes.

Which do you all think is better? I'm only asking because I'm not a fan of Ferocity as Condition.

Berserker Runes give Power which benefits Scourge better to me, and the 2% less of Condition Damage traded for 100 Power and +5% physical damage seems like it would be a better choice.

Has anyone else thought about this?

It makes absolutely no sense for Renegade runes to be higher DPS then Berserkers or 4 nightmare / 2 Trapper, to max out burn and torment. I suspect this to be either...A: A bug with Renegade runes or...B: A ruse to drive up the price of renegade runes and make quick buck.

Try it yourself and if you can get a better dps result then QT you will have the biggest dick in all the land

@Tobias.8632 said:Try it yourself and if you can get a better dps result then QT you will have the biggest kitten in all the land

This made me laugh, I want a giant kitten. xD

Was hoping more would reply :/

I just don't want to invest in renegade runes to test it. I'll stick with Berserker, can't care less if they give few% damage increase.

I am cheap (and broke) so I am using 2x trapper 4x tempest (got tempest for few silvers week ago) and I am ok with these :)Will probably get 4x Nightmare when I will be in mood for few dung runs...Not going to pay for Renegade nor Berserker at this point - difference will not be that big and I have more important stuff to spend gold on.

TL;DRI don't get how renegade > nightmare+trapper.renegade being better than berserker makes sense due to most damage being conditions

the ferocity vs power argument aside.5% power of your power damage would have to be equal or greater than 2% of your condi damage for berserker runes to be better than renegade.A quick calculation puts it at least 29% of your damage has to be power damage to be worthwhile ( or less than 71% condi dps).

Which in the case of necro seems extremely unlikely to me.I did a golem test last night, ~ 33% bleed, 30% torment, + burn & poison, which was 3rd and 4th for dps contribution, but I cant remember the exact % but more than 71% of my damage was from conditions.

As for renegade runes being higher dps than nightmare+trapper - this I have no clue how the maths stacks up. I would love to see the explanation for that. I feel like I'm missing something.

I get that it wastes less of the 20% bleed trait, but i don't see 7% condi dmg beating ~10% bleed, and up to ~25% torment/burn/poison duration. I think qt's build is only ~70% duration on condis other than bleed, unless I missed something ( build below)? vs ~95% with nightmare+Trapper, and overcapped on bleed.I assumed only 1 shade, so I appreciate it will have 5% more duration frequently in practice - which applies to both, excluding bleeds on nightmare + trapper.

tl;dr on the durations:renegade:~70% (+20% bleed, ~90% total)x1.07 ( for renegade runes)vsnightmare+trapper:~95% (+20% bleed, 100% total).

renegade:gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJArPWMGMqlQUoWF9zCAHA926cNvC-jxhHQB16BAAgTAgGVC6x9HIneACq8jeq/QKAYmGB-e

nightmare+Trappergw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJArPWMGsofWA4AQtEiC1K926cNvC-jBiHQBaUJIBV+BgTAQQ2Hgc6Bq1DAgeq/4sFGIFAMTjA-e

@"Artemis Thuras.8795" said:TL;DRI don't get how renegade > nightmare+trapper.renegade being better than berserker makes sense due to most damage being conditions

the ferocity vs power argument aside.5% power of your power damage would have to be equal or greater than 2% of your condi damage for berserker runes to be better than renegade.A quick calculation puts it at least 29% of your damage has to be power damage to be worthwhile ( or less than 71% condi dps).

Which in the case of necro seems extremely unlikely to me.I did a golem test last night, ~ 33% bleed, 30% torment, + burn & poison, which was 3rd and 4th for dps contribution, but I cant remember the exact % but more than 71% of my damage was from conditions.

As for renegade runes being higher dps than nightmare+trapper - this I have no clue how the maths stacks up. I would love to see the explanation for that. I feel like I'm missing something.

I get that it wastes less of the 20% bleed trait, but i don't see 7% condi dmg beating ~10% bleed, and up to ~25% torment/burn/poison duration. I think qt's build is only ~70% duration on condis other than bleed, unless I missed something ( build below)? vs ~95% with nightmare+Trapper, and overcapped on bleed.I assumed only 1 shade, so I appreciate it will have 5% more duration frequently in practice - which applies to both, excluding bleeds on nightmare + trapper.

tl;dr on the durations:renegade:~70% (+20% bleed, ~90% total)x1.07 ( for renegade runes)vsnightmare+trapper:~95% (+20% bleed, 100% total).

renegade:gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJArPWMGMqlQUoWF9zCAHA926cNvC-jxhHQB16BAAgTAgGVC6x9HIneACq8jeq/QKAYmGB-e

nightmare+Trappergw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJArPWMGsofWA4AQtEiC1K926cNvC-jBiHQBaUJIBV+BgTAQQ2Hgc6Bq1DAgeq/4sFGIFAMTjA-e

They explained it in a reply. The Runes are all really close, but they said Renegade came out on top.

@Kam.4092 said:

@"Artemis Thuras.8795" said:

TL;DR

I don't get how renegade > nightmare+trapper.

renegade being better than berserker makes sense due to most damage being conditions

the ferocity vs power argument aside.5% power of your power damage would have to be equal or greater than 2% of your condi damage for berserker runes to be better than renegade.A quick calculation puts it at least 29% of your damage has to be power damage to be worthwhile ( or less than 71% condi dps).

Which in the case of necro seems extremely unlikely to me.I did a golem test last night, ~ 33% bleed, 30% torment, + burn & poison, which was 3rd and 4th for dps contribution, but I cant remember the exact % but more than 71% of my damage was from conditions.

As for renegade runes being higher dps than nightmare+trapper - this I have no clue how the maths stacks up. I would love to see the explanation for that. I feel like I'm missing something.

I get that it wastes less of the 20% bleed trait, but i don't see 7% condi dmg beating ~10% bleed, and up to ~25% torment/burn/poison duration. I think qt's build is only ~70% duration on condis other than bleed, unless I missed something ( build below)? vs ~95% with nightmare+Trapper, and overcapped on bleed.I assumed only 1 shade, so I appreciate it will have 5% more duration frequently in practice - which applies to both, excluding bleeds on nightmare + trapper.

tl;dr on the durations:renegade:~70% (+20% bleed, ~90% total)x1.07 ( for renegade runes)vsnightmare+trapper:~95% (+20% bleed, 100% total).

renegade:

gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJArPWMGMqlQUoWF9zCAHA926cNvC-jxhHQB16BAAgTAgGVC6x9HIneACq8jeq/QKAYmGB-e

nightmare+Trapper

gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJArPWMGsofWA4AQtEiC1K926cNvC-jBiHQBaUJIBV+BgTAQQ2Hgc6Bq1DAgeq/4sFGIFAMTjA-e

I don't suppose you could provide a link? Seems like I'm not the only one who missed the explanation of how it works out.I found it. Posting since I suspect others might want to see it too.https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74b1ik/qt_path_of_fire_builds_and_benchmarks/dnxi219/

@Artemis Thuras.8795 said:

@Kam.4092 said:

@Artemis Thuras.8795 said:

TL;DR

I don't get how renegade > nightmare+trapper.

renegade being better than berserker makes sense due to most damage being conditions

the ferocity vs power argument aside.5% power of your power damage would have to be equal or greater than 2% of your condi damage for berserker runes to be better than renegade.A quick calculation puts it at least 29% of your damage has to be power damage to be worthwhile ( or less than 71% condi dps).

Which in the case of necro seems extremely unlikely to me.I did a golem test last night, ~ 33% bleed, 30% torment, + burn & poison, which was 3rd and 4th for dps contribution, but I cant remember the exact % but more than 71% of my damage was from conditions.

As for renegade runes being higher dps than nightmare+trapper - this I have no clue how the maths stacks up. I would love to see the explanation for that. I feel like I'm missing something.

I get that it wastes less of the 20% bleed trait, but i don't see 7% condi dmg beating ~10% bleed, and up to ~25% torment/burn/poison duration. I think qt's build is only ~70% duration on condis other than bleed, unless I missed something ( build below)? vs ~95% with nightmare+Trapper, and overcapped on bleed.I assumed only 1 shade, so I appreciate it will have 5% more duration frequently in practice - which applies to both, excluding bleeds on nightmare + trapper.

tl;dr on the durations:renegade:~70% (+20% bleed, ~90% total)x1.07 ( for renegade runes)vsnightmare+trapper:~95% (+20% bleed, 100% total).

renegade:

gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJArPWMGMqlQUoWF9zCAHA926cNvC-jxhHQB16BAAgTAgGVC6x9HIneACq8jeq/QKAYmGB-e

nightmare+Trapper

gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJArPWMGsofWA4AQtEiC1K926cNvC-jBiHQBaUJIBV+BgTAQQ2Hgc6Bq1DAgeq/4sFGIFAMTjA-e

I don't suppose you could provide a link? Seems like I'm not the only one who missed the explanation of how it works out.

My main content is Fractals so I'll probably keep a set with Trapper/Nightmare. For the Renegade setup to work you'd need Alacrity for 2 Shades up always. When I pug Fractals that won't happen, so Epidemic with Trapper/Nightmare would probably be better in pugs.

Just my opinion.

@Kam.4092 said:

@Artemis Thuras.8795 said:

@Kam.4092 said:

@Artemis Thuras.8795 said:

TL;DR

I don't get how renegade > nightmare+trapper.

renegade being better than berserker makes sense due to most damage being conditions

the ferocity vs power argument aside.5% power of your power damage would have to be equal or greater than 2% of your condi damage for berserker runes to be better than renegade.A quick calculation puts it at least 29% of your damage has to be power damage to be worthwhile ( or less than 71% condi dps).

Which in the case of necro seems extremely unlikely to me.I did a golem test last night, ~ 33% bleed, 30% torment, + burn & poison, which was 3rd and 4th for dps contribution, but I cant remember the exact % but more than 71% of my damage was from conditions.

As for renegade runes being higher dps than nightmare+trapper - this I have no clue how the maths stacks up. I would love to see the explanation for that. I feel like I'm missing something.

I get that it wastes less of the 20% bleed trait, but i don't see 7% condi dmg beating ~10% bleed, and up to ~25% torment/burn/poison duration. I think qt's build is only ~70% duration on condis other than bleed, unless I missed something ( build below)? vs ~95% with nightmare+Trapper, and overcapped on bleed.I assumed only 1 shade, so I appreciate it will have 5% more duration frequently in practice - which applies to both, excluding bleeds on nightmare + trapper.

tl;dr on the durations:renegade:~70% (+20% bleed, ~90% total)x1.07 ( for renegade runes)vsnightmare+trapper:~95% (+20% bleed, 100% total).

renegade:

gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJArPWMGMqlQUoWF9zCAHA926cNvC-jxhHQB16BAAgTAgGVC6x9HIneACq8jeq/QKAYmGB-e

nightmare+Trapper

gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJArPWMGsofWA4AQtEiC1K926cNvC-jBiHQBaUJIBV+BgTAQQ2Hgc6Bq1DAgeq/4sFGIFAMTjA-e

I don't suppose you could provide a link? Seems like I'm not the only one who missed the explanation of how it works out.

To be honest I suspect any fight with more f-skill usage, and so a higher proportion of damage coming from torment may shift it too. Terrifying decent probably has more impact then also.Which absolutely applys in many fractals, and some raids.

Comparing the Nightmare + Trapper and Renegade runes in detail with realistic raid buffs, stat infusions and 2 shades active you have:

Trapper + Nightmare with all Viper but Sinister gloves:

Condition Damage2992

Condition Duration99.80%

Expertise972

Bleeding 277Burning 818Torment 369Poison 293

Renegade with full Viper:

Condition Damage3060

Condition Duration76.59% (96.59% Bleeding)

Expertise999

Bleeding 301Burning 885Torment 401Poison 318

The reason why many find the 6 set bonus on Renegade and Berserker runes confusing is because it's worded poorly. It does not, like the Bursting sigil, increase your base Condition Damage stat by a fixed percentage. What it does is that it acts as a modifier, like Grace of the Land and is applied on top of might, banners, Pinpoint Distribution etc.

But this was only half of the damage calculation and this is where Condition Duration comes in. Condition Duration will only increase DPS when and IF it allows you to stack more conditions simultaneously.

Scourge have on average very short duration conditions, compared to Reaper that mainly apply long duration bleeding. Look at the tooltip burning duration between the 2 rune sets:

Nightmare + TrapperDhuumfire 6sSadistic Searing 8sHarrowing Wave 6sTrail of Anguish 8sDemonic Lore 6sPlaguelands 10s

RenegadeDhuumfire 5¼Sadistic Searing 7sHarrowing Wave 5¼Trail of Anguish 7sDemonic Lore 5¼Plaguelands 8¾

The same goes for Torment, most of the applications are very short so even at 100% duration, the frequency and duration will not make up for the loss of raw damage. And since Poison is roughly 5% of the total damage output it's not worth considering at all.

But this also only compares single target DPS and in this case while the 2 rune sets might be close, if you factor in Epidemic then Renegade runes have a significant advantage since condition duration is not a factor at all.

TL;DR Renegade gives more Epidemic damage.

Edit: I realize I posted this in the wrong thread. Berserker vs Renegade would be something around 200 dps in favor of Renegade singel target, far less than the margin of error in the rotation itself.

@Demoria.6745 said:Comparing the Nightmare + Trapper and Renegade runes in detail with realistic raid buffs, stat infusions and 2 shades active you have:

Trapper + Nightmare with all Viper but Sinister gloves:

Condition Damage2992

Condition Duration99.80%

Expertise972

Bleeding 277Burning 818Torment 369Poison 293

Renegade with full Viper:

Condition Damage3060

Condition Duration76.59% (96.59% Bleeding)

Expertise999

Bleeding 301Burning 885Torment 401Poison 318

The reason why many find the 6 set bonus on Renegade and Berserker runes confusing is because it's worded poorly. It does not, like the Bursting sigil, increase your base Condition Damage stat by a fixed percentage. What it does is that it acts as a modifier, like Grace of the Land and is applied on top of might, banners, Pinpoint Distribution etc.

But this was only half of the damage calculation and this is where Condition Duration comes in. Condition Duration will only increase DPS when and IF it allows you to stack more conditions simultaneously.

Scourge have on average very short duration conditions, compared to Reaper that mainly apply long duration bleeding. Look at the tooltip burning duration between the 2 rune sets:

Nightmare + TrapperDhuumfire 6sSadistic Searing 8sHarrowing Wave 6sTrail of Anguish 8sDemonic Lore 6sPlaguelands 10s

RenegadeDhuumfire 5¼Sadistic Searing 7sHarrowing Wave 5¼Trail of Anguish 7sDemonic Lore 5¼Plaguelands 8¾

The same goes for Torment, most of the applications are very short so even at 100% duration, the frequency and duration will not make up for the loss of raw damage. And since Poison is roughly 5% of the total damage output it's not worth considering at all.

But this also only compares single target DPS and in this case while the 2 rune sets might be close, if you factor in Epidemic then Renegade runes have a significant advantage since condition duration is not a factor at all.

TL;DR Renegade gives more Epidemic damage.

Edit: I realize I posted this in the wrong thread. Berserker vs Renegade would be something around 200 dps in favor of Renegade singel target, far less than the margin of error in the rotation itself.

so comparing dhuumfire:

nightmare+trapper:6s duration * 818 damage = 4908

renegade:5.5*885 = 4867.5

nightmare+trapper is mathematically superior. And this was the case in every single skill/trait I compared the two setups. Even in a single, isolated application.This also occurred with torment, and poison. ( I haven't tried with all of your numbers however).

Bleeds would potentially be slightly stronger with the renegade setup AND enough shades. However when I tested, torment, burn, and poison accounted for significantly greater portion of the dps.

In the case of epi, I can see how renegade runes would give more damage. however epi isn't always going to be worth taking.

with nightmare+trapper you dont get the 100 condi dmg from the rune set, putting on berzerker or renegade will give you that plus more condi damage. It's a tiny amount of dps change to be honest so go with what you can make with full viper gear.

@Artemis Thuras.8795 said:so comparing dhuumfire:

nightmare+trapper:6s duration * 818 damage = 4908

renegade:5.5*885 = 4867.5

nightmare+trapper is mathematically superior. And this was the case in every single skill/trait I compared the two setups. Even in a single, isolated application.

You are correct that total damage per cast is higher with Trapper + Nightmare, but DPS for each of the conditions is lower. In order for condition duration to make a difference it needs to create additional overlaps with conditions. If we for example look at the proc from Demonic Lore, even at 100% duration you will never have an overlap of more than 2 stacks from this trait. The DPS gain from additional condition damage is greater than the loss from condition duration not being capped.

@Demoria.6745 said:

@Artemis Thuras.8795 said:so comparing dhuumfire:

nightmare+trapper:6s duration * 818 damage = 4908

renegade:5.5*885 = 4867.5

nightmare+trapper is mathematically superior. And this was the case in every single skill/trait I compared the two setups. Even in a single, isolated application.

Do you think Nightmare and Trapper would be better in Fractals, since you wouldn't have all the buffs, or max Shade uptime? Renegade seems better for Raids.

@Kam.4092 said:Do you think Nightmare and Trapper would be better in Fractals, since you wouldn't have all the buffs, or max Shade uptime? Renegade seems better for Raids.

Arguably you get more out of Epidemic in fractals so I will stick with Renegade runes for that as well. Personally I always do fractals with warrior, druid and chrono, so the only buff I'm missing is Pinpoint Distribution.

@Demoria.6745 said:

@Kam.4092 said:Do you think Nightmare and Trapper would be better in Fractals, since you wouldn't have all the buffs, or max Shade uptime? Renegade seems better for Raids.

Where do you think Trapper and Nightmare would be better?

@Kam.4092 said:Where do you think Trapper and Nightmare would be better?

I'm not sure if there is a situation where it is the better alternative, at least not if it's purely dps you're after. The only thing that comes to mind is if you're doing something like a lowman raid on Cairn and you're the only source of Vulnerability.

@Demoria.6745 said:

@Artemis Thuras.8795 said:so comparing dhuumfire:

nightmare+trapper:6s duration * 818 damage = 4908

renegade:5.5*885 = 4867.5

nightmare+trapper is mathematically superior. And this was the case in every single skill/trait I compared the two setups. Even in a single, isolated application.

Mathematically that makes no sense.I don't see how the conditions need to overlap more to create higher dps.

Regardless of condi vs power, if a skill gives more damage, it will therefore give higher dps average over time.Your argument applies to the idea that it is more frontloaded, and therefore more bursty, at a loss of overall damage output.

So unless you can provide a mathematical proof for how shorter duration with higher tick ( and lower total damage) is somehow going to result in higher total damage I'm still inclined to say: something seems wrong here.

@Artemis Thuras.8795 said:

@Demoria.6745 said:

@Artemis Thuras.8795 said:so comparing dhuumfire:

nightmare+trapper:6s duration * 818 damage = 4908

renegade:5.5*885 = 4867.5

nightmare+trapper is mathematically superior. And this was the case in every single skill/trait I compared the two setups. Even in a single, isolated application.

Keep in mind that you are still basically capped on bleed duration using the renegade runes. While the shorter duration makes burning slightly weaker (about 4%) it makes your bleeding damage higher (about 8.5%). Additionally ferocity is better than power for your damage when fully buffed.

@Knox.8962 said:...Additionally ferocity is better than power for your damage when fully buffed.

Ferocity is only of benefit when you crit (obviously) so when you do not crit, it is wasted stats. Whereas power will always add damage. How high is the crit chance?It's probably around 80% when fully buffed. Not sure if I can be bothered to calculate the difference. I think I'll just stick to the Berserker runes.

@Artemis Thuras.8795 said:I don't see how the conditions need to overlap more to create higher dps.Your argument applies to the idea that it is more frontloaded, and therefore more bursty.Yes, that is a better way to put it.

So unless you can provide a mathematical proof for how shorter duration with higher tick ( and lower total damage) is somehow going to result in higher total damage I'm still inclined to say: something seems wrong here.

That is obviously not possible. If you only compare the burning from Dhuumfire between the 2 rune sets then clearly Trapper + Nightmare would have the advantage, my point is that the overall gain in condition damage, for all conditions, is greater than the loss of condition duration.

@Demoria.6745 said:

So unless you can provide a mathematical proof for how shorter duration with higher tick ( and

lower total damage

) is somehow going to

result in higher total damage

I'm still inclined to say: something seems wrong here.

So when I tested, with nightmare + trapper, bleeds accounted for ~33% of my damage, while torment accounted for 30%. With burn and poison factored in, torment+burn+poison was accounting for more than 50% of the damage.

So even with the argument that bleeds end up a bit stronger, while the other condis end up a bit weaker, the damage distribution seems to favour going for the stronger torment+burn+poison.

The only explanation I can think of, is that bleed (which is clearly stronger with renegade runes) is accounting for a high enough proportion of the dps, that it is worth more than the loss of the torment+burn+poison damage.

I suppose what would settle this for me would be a dps test with no runes, and see how the condi damage sources compare, to see which is worth would give more:the extra condi dmg,orthe extra durations on torment/burn/poison.

hmm, kittens.Doing guesstimates in my head of what that may look like, and I'm starting to see how renegade probably would end up better, since the proportion of damage from bleed would be considerably higher when testing with no runes.Combined with being more compressed..

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582My testing put the power damage at significantly below the ~29% contribution needed to make the 5% power modifier better than the extra 2% condi modifier.I have very little doubt that renegade > berserker.