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Zhaitan’s Shadow Sphere of Influence

Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 7, 2020 in Lore

I know we had spoken about this topic in the past and the question about Zhaitan’s Shadow sphere has also been asked of Anet with unfortunately no response.

From what we have seen with the other dragons there seems to be a Primary Sphere of Influence and a secondary sphere of influence. The dragon’s primary sphere is quite evident because it shows up in their corruption as well as their physical make up. The secondary sphere of influence appears to not work in the physical realm and appears more meta physical.

Currently the Elder Dragons have shown mastery of the following sphere of influences.

Zhaitan: Death and Shadow, Mordremoth: Plant and Mind, Kralkatorrik: Crystal and Fury, Jormag: Ice and Persuasion, Primordus: Fire and Conflagration, Deep Sea Dragon: Possibly Water and who knows what.

Most of the secondary spheres seem self explanatory, except maybe Fury and Conflagration as we haven’t had a lot of examples. These Secondary Spheres really only seem to appear within the dragon themselves and don’t seem to be shared with its minions unlike the Primary Sphere. That being said once the Elder Dragon dies, the secondary sphere seems to be up for grabs for the other dragons and then can be shared among those dragon minions.

Zhaitan’s Shadow Sphere of Influence doesn't really appear in the game and when sifting through all the Risen pages on the GW2 wiki can I really see any Risen using any Shadow abilities, hence why I figured that the secondary domain is restricted just to the Dragon. When an Elder Dragon dies that magic is up for grabs. So I went to one of the first examples of one of these hybrid dragon minions that unknowingly appeared in the game with a new sphere of influence, the Shadow of the Dragon.

At the time of the release we did not know that the Dragons can consume their spheres of influence and push those influences onto their minions. With no clear example of Zhaitan’s Shadow influence, I looked at how the Shadow of the Dragon operated. When you fight the Shadow of the Dragon it spawns several different Shadow creatures, Shadow Tendrils, Malformed Shadows and Smothering Shadows. This appears to be clear evidence that Mordremoth consumed the Shadow influence from Zhaitan as well as the death spectrum. Mordremoth also creates Smothering Shadows in the final HoT story mission.

As you progress the encounter, Braham throws the divine fire to activate the areas around the makeshift jungle arena to eventually be able to damage the boss. The Smothering Shadows slowly walk toward the edges of the arena and Smother the divine fire and can only be harmed by it. The dragon minions also appear to fear and run from the divine fire and energy as well, as shown by the beginning of the Mystery cave.

After looking back at that fight, I started to wonder if Zhaitan was using the Shadow Influence to smother the divine energies of the God Temples and their statues in Orr and once the energy was smothered, use his mastery over death to use his Risen Priests and Priestesses of the Gods to corrupt the energy of the statues. I would imagine that Zhaitan would want to stop these Divine energies from scaring away his minions and would want to corrupt the essences to power himself even more.

The ability to stop the divine energy doesn’t seem to be an ability associated to the Death Spectrum, but it seems to be an ability shown by the Shadow Spectrum as shown by the Smothering Shadows. It should also be noted that taking back the statues themselves in Orr, certain pillars that have fire on them change their influence along with the associated god statues changing back to their typical god statue influence, Melandru’s statue growing back leaves for example. The Gods themselves also can’t be view by mortal eyes because of their divine light, which would make sense that Zhaitan would have negate this influence with the Shadow Sphere.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • @Tyson.5160 said:
    These Secondary Spheres really only seem to appear within the dragon themselves and don’t seem to be shared with its minions unlike the Primary Sphere.

    I'd disagree here. Both Drakkar and the Dragonspawn have shown pretty heavy use of the Persuasion sphere, with Drakkar seducing Svanir and several other norn, and the Dragonspawn using similar power on Zojja, Snaff, and Eir in EoD.

    Similarly, the three Mordrem Guard Commanders seem to make use of the Mind sphere, with how their minds transfer to new bodies upon death, much like Mordremoth himself.

    So rather than "no minions use it", rather, I'd think it's that "only the strongest minions use it".

    If we then assume that, there is one certain powerful minion of Zhaitan's which has a shadow-like ability:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Giganticus_Lupicus

    Shadow Walk

    Though that doesn't really say much, and doesn't seem to relate to Zhaitan. Though there is one ability of Zhaitan's that might relate: the summoning of Tendrils of Zhaitan, which appear as if they'd be part of Zhaitan itself. Shadow magic does seem to include teleportation, so if Zhaitan used it to "teleport pieces of himself" onto the deck, that could explain it; and could explain how it summons risen in mass too.

    After looking back at that fight, I started to wonder if Zhaitan was using the Shadow Influence to smother the divine energies of the God Temples and their statues in Orr and once the energy was smothered, use his mastery over death to use his Risen Priests and Priestesses of the Gods to corrupt the energy of the statues. I would imagine that Zhaitan would want to stop these Divine energies from scaring away his minions and would want to corrupt the essences to power himself even more.

    The ability to stop the divine energy doesn’t seem to be an ability associated to the Death Spectrum, but it seems to be an ability shown by the Shadow Spectrum as shown by the Smothering Shadows. It should also be noted that taking back the statues themselves in Orr, certain pillars that have fire on them change their influence along with the associated god statues changing back to their typical god statue influence, Melandru’s statue growing back leaves for example. The Gods themselves also can’t be view by mortal eyes because of their divine light, which would make sense that Zhaitan would have negate this influence with the Shadow Sphere.

    This makes a lot of sense actually. It wasn't really explained how Zhaitan could corrupt the statues so thoroughly, while the statues there and other divine magic also avoided corruption. If Zhaitan needed to actively use Shadow magic to counter the divine magic, and then corrupt them over time, that makes a lot more sense. I had always figured that since it was Grenth's statues that seem slowest to corruption, it was due to similar magic (Death and Death), but given other lore, that doesn't make as much sense as being Divine v. Dragon with Shadow giving an advantage.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    These Secondary Spheres really only seem to appear within the dragon themselves and don’t seem to be shared with its minions unlike the Primary Sphere.

    I'd disagree here. Both Drakkar and the Dragonspawn have shown pretty heavy use of the Persuasion sphere, with Drakkar seducing Svanir and several other norn, and the Dragonspawn using similar power on Zojja, Snaff, and Eir in EoD.

    Similarly, the three Mordrem Guard Commanders seem to make use of the Mind sphere, with how their minds transfer to new bodies upon death, much like Mordremoth himself.

    So rather than "no minions use it", rather, I'd think it's that "only the strongest minions use it".

    If we then assume that, there is one certain powerful minion of Zhaitan's which has a shadow-like ability:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Giganticus_Lupicus

    Shadow Walk

    Though that doesn't really say much, and doesn't seem to relate to Zhaitan. Though there is one ability of Zhaitan's that might relate: the summoning of Tendrils of Zhaitan, which appear as if they'd be part of Zhaitan itself. Shadow magic does seem to include teleportation, so if Zhaitan used it to "teleport pieces of himself" onto the deck, that could explain it; and could explain how it summons risen in mass too.

    Good point. I also notice that Aurene herself has an ability called Dragon’s Fury, which she uses throughout the Season 4. This just appears to be a fiery blast, but it still might be Aurene using this Fury Aspect. Much like Kralkatorrik using abilities like Kralkatorrik’s Ire. That Sphere doesn’t really appear at all. So we could potentially see the other dragon enraged their minions maybe? That’s if some Kralkatorrik’s magic seeped back into Tyria.

    Edit: Aurene actually possesses a lot of skills that may or may not encompass the Fury Sphere as well. Dragon’s Rage, Dragon’s fury, Dragon’s Wrath, Aurene’s Fury.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I know we had spoken about this topic in the past and the question about Zhaitan’s Shadow sphere has also been asked of Anet with unfortunately no response.

    From what we have seen with the other dragons there seems to be a Primary Sphere of Influence and a secondary sphere of influence. The dragon’s primary sphere is quite evident because it shows up in their corruption as well as their physical make up. The secondary sphere of influence appears to not work in the physical realm and appears more meta physical.

    Currently the Elder Dragons have shown mastery of the following sphere of influences.

    Zhaitan: Death and Shadow, Mordremoth: Plant and Mind, Kralkatorrik: Crystal and Fury, Jormag: Ice and Persuasion, Primordus: Fire and Conflagration, Deep Sea Dragon: Possibly Water and who knows what.

    Most of the secondary spheres seem self explanatory, except maybe Fury and Conflagration as we haven’t had a lot of examples. These Secondary Spheres really only seem to appear within the dragon themselves and don’t seem to be shared with its minions unlike the Primary Sphere. That being said once the Elder Dragon dies, the secondary sphere seems to be up for grabs for the other dragons and then can be shared among those dragon minions.

    Zhaitan’s Shadow Sphere of Influence doesn't really appear in the game and when sifting through all the Risen pages on the GW2 wiki can I really see any Risen using any Shadow abilities, hence why I figured that the secondary domain is restricted just to the Dragon. When an Elder Dragon dies that magic is up for grabs. So I went to one of the first examples of one of these hybrid dragon minions that unknowingly appeared in the game with a new sphere of influence, the Shadow of the Dragon.

    At the time of the release we did not know that the Dragons can consume their spheres of influence and push those influences onto their minions. With no clear example of Zhaitan’s Shadow influence, I looked at how the Shadow of the Dragon operated. When you fight the Shadow of the Dragon it spawns several different Shadow creatures, Shadow Tendrils, Malformed Shadows and Smothering Shadows. This appears to be clear evidence that Mordremoth consumed the Shadow influence from Zhaitan as well as the death spectrum. Mordremoth also creates Smothering Shadows in the final HoT story mission.

    As you progress the encounter, Braham throws the divine fire to activate the areas around the makeshift jungle arena to eventually be able to damage the boss. The Smothering Shadows slowly walk toward the edges of the arena and Smother the divine fire and can only be harmed by it. The dragon minions also appear to fear and run from the divine fire and energy as well, as shown by the beginning of the Mystery cave.

    After looking back at that fight, I started to wonder if Zhaitan was using the Shadow Influence to smother the divine energies of the God Temples and their statues in Orr and once the energy was smothered, use his mastery over death to use his Risen Priests and Priestesses of the Gods to corrupt the energy of the statues. I would imagine that Zhaitan would want to stop these Divine energies from scaring away his minions and would want to corrupt the essences to power himself even more.

    The ability to stop the divine energy doesn’t seem to be an ability associated to the Death Spectrum, but it seems to be an ability shown by the Shadow Spectrum as shown by the Smothering Shadows. It should also be noted that taking back the statues themselves in Orr, certain pillars that have fire on them change their influence along with the associated god statues changing back to their typical god statue influence, Melandru’s statue growing back leaves for example. The Gods themselves also can’t be view by mortal eyes because of their divine light, which would make sense that Zhaitan would have negate this influence with the Shadow Sphere.

    Thoughts?

    Good observations. I just wonder if you've developed a long-winded way of thinking about how Elder Dragon corruption works. It'll only lead to more confusion, I think.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Pretty sure I read somewhere that stealth based skills like the thief class uses are a form of Shadow Magic, likewise they have a traitline called Shadow Arts.

    During the personal story there are a few instances where Zhaitans minions would stealth themselves to pull off ambushes, That would be a display of Shadow Magic imo.

  • My guess would be that this "secondary influence" might not have been very strong to begin with, verging more on a talent more than anything else, and has slowly been getting amplified as the dragons absorb stuff from their fallen counterparts. So not only are they gaining new abilities that they didn't have before, but other abilities that they might have had but not been very good at are also getting stronger, which could be much more problematic and unexpected. The last thing we need is a talent for "conflagration" becoming stronger.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Juillin.5361 said:
    My guess would be that this "secondary influence" might not have been very strong to begin with, verging more on a talent more than anything else, and has slowly been getting amplified as the dragons absorb stuff from their fallen counterparts. So not only are they gaining new abilities that they didn't have before, but other abilities that they might have had but not been very good at are also getting stronger, which could be much more problematic and unexpected. The last thing we need is a talent for "conflagration" becoming stronger.

    It’s fascinating because sometimes the dragon will take one of these spheres of influence and apply it in a different way. Mordremoth with the Death Spectrum for example was just throwing dead bodies into the blighting tree and blister pods and creating minions, which it could not do in previous rises. Which significantly different then how Zhaitan used the Death Spectrum, with minions appearing immediately on death or being corrupted. Even Primordus used it differently and modified his destroyers with death magic as well as plant magic in a different way then Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

    Kralkatorrik gained the Mind Spectrum and used it to improve his branded minions with more awareness and amplified the hive mind.

    Even recently Jormag has been playing with the death spectrum to speak through and manipulate corpses. We have seen Jormag experimenting with death and plant magic with the unstable abomination and even appeared to combine the two energies. Now it seems like Jormag is using the death spectrum more subtly, then say Kralkatorrik and the death-branded.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Pretty sure I read somewhere that stealth based skills like the thief class uses are a form of Shadow Magic, likewise they have a traitline called Shadow Arts.

    During the personal story there are a few instances where Zhaitans minions would stealth themselves to pull off ambushes, That would be a display of Shadow Magic imo.

    Your probably right, but it’s most likely a different type of Shadow magic, as I don’t think we are actually tapping into Zhaitan’s influence, same as our fire magic isn’t likely from Primordus and Jormag with ice etc.

    Yes it’s definitely possible that these ambushes are Shadow Magic references, much like the wraiths on board the airship mission.

    I was mainly looking at what is shown in the game with the Shadow of the Dragon and somewhat reverse engineering to see if it made sense for Zhaitan to use it in a similar way.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Pretty sure I read somewhere that stealth based skills like the thief class uses are a form of Shadow Magic, likewise they have a traitline called Shadow Arts.

    During the personal story there are a few instances where Zhaitans minions would stealth themselves to pull off ambushes, That would be a display of Shadow Magic imo.

    Your probably right, but it’s most likely a different type of Shadow magic, as I don’t think we are actually tapping into Zhaitan’s influence, same as our fire magic isn’t likely from Primordus and Jormag with ice etc.

    Yes it’s definitely possible that these ambushes are Shadow Magic references, much like the wraiths on board the airship mission.

    I was mainly looking at what is shown in the game with the Shadow of the Dragon and somewhat reverse engineering to see if it made sense for Zhaitan to use it in a similar way.

    It's an interesting creature for sure..

    Shadow of the Dragon goes back way before Mordremoth too, first time we see it is after first creating Sylvari characters.
    It's said to be a shadowy manifestation of evil that's supposed to represent Zhaitan.
    Then it shows up in the real world as a champion of Mordremoth..

    It begs questions like..
    Did Caithe etc just misinterpret the attack on the dream and attribute Shadow to Zhaitan because he was the most pressing threat at the time?
    Was Mordremoth actually responsible for the nightmare assault on the dream?
    Did Mordremoth need Zhaitan's magic before it could manifest this champion in the real world?

    It makes me curious as to whether Mordremoth has been pulling strings right from the beginning of Gw2.
    If Shadow of the Dragon was always his champion then Mordremoth was responsible for the attack on the dream.. but to what end or purpose?
    Could Mordremoth have been using Shadow of the Dragon to manipulate the Sylvari concept of a Wyld Hunt in order to encourage his Sylvari to take up arms and kill Zhaitan?
    Was that just the first step in his master plan to awaken himself?

    Definitely a possiblity and a pretty interesting one too as it would be the only case we've had in the game so far of an Elder Dragon actively plotting to kill and steal the power of another Elder Dragon.

    Considering Mordrmeoth is the Dragon of Minds I kinda want all this to be true.
    Mordy was criticized a lot for it's dominion over the mind yet it was never really shown all that much outside of the Sylvari.
    If he's been manipulating the sylvari all along so he could orchestrate the death of another Elder Dragon that add's a good chunk of malicious and intelligent character to the Dragon of minds prior to the Scarlet saga where he had direct access to a minions mind to orchestrate his awakening.

    Everything Sylvari comes into question then.. Caithes Wyld Hunt being the same as ours? no coincidence that she ended up being part of the team that killed Zhaitan then is it?

    Traherne's wyld hunt to cleanse orr.. odd coincidence that plant magic from Caladbolg which was born from one of the Pale Tree's thorns was able to reverse Zhaitans corruption..
    Did we really cleanse orr in the end? or were we just laying the groundwork for Mordremoth to spread into Zhaitans territory after we killed it?

    If we play a Sylvari ourselves it's hard to overlook the fact that 3 Sylvari played massive roles in the death of Zhaitan.
    2 of which where leading the entire Pact movement against Zhaitan.
    And isn't it also just a tad suspicious that we took the pact into Orr and killed Zhaitan without too much trouble but when we attempted to do the same in the Magumma Jungle Mordremoth obliterated the pact forces with next to no effort at all.. and thousands of Sylvari turned then and there.
    How long had Modremoth been orchestrating that ambush I wonder.. could it have been as far back as the personal story?

    Who knows :)

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Pretty sure I read somewhere that stealth based skills like the thief class uses are a form of Shadow Magic, likewise they have a traitline called Shadow Arts.

    During the personal story there are a few instances where Zhaitans minions would stealth themselves to pull off ambushes, That would be a display of Shadow Magic imo.

    Your probably right, but it’s most likely a different type of Shadow magic, as I don’t think we are actually tapping into Zhaitan’s influence, same as our fire magic isn’t likely from Primordus and Jormag with ice etc.

    Yes it’s definitely possible that these ambushes are Shadow Magic references, much like the wraiths on board the airship mission.

    I was mainly looking at what is shown in the game with the Shadow of the Dragon and somewhat reverse engineering to see if it made sense for Zhaitan to use it in a similar way.

    It's an interesting creature for sure..

    Shadow of the Dragon goes back way before Mordremoth too, first time we see it is after first creating Sylvari characters.
    It's said to be a shadowy manifestation of evil that's supposed to represent Zhaitan.
    Then it shows up in the real world as a champion of Mordremoth..

    It begs questions like..
    Did Caithe etc just misinterpret the attack on the dream and attribute Shadow to Zhaitan because he was the most pressing threat at the time?
    Was Mordremoth actually responsible for the nightmare assault on the dream?
    Did Mordremoth need Zhaitan's magic before it could manifest this champion in the real world?

    It makes me curious as to whether Mordremoth has been pulling strings right from the beginning of Gw2.
    If Shadow of the Dragon was always his champion then Mordremoth was responsible for the attack on the dream.. but to what end or purpose?
    Could Mordremoth have been using Shadow of the Dragon to manipulate the Sylvari concept of a Wyld Hunt in order to encourage his Sylvari to take up arms and kill Zhaitan?
    Was that just the first step in his master plan to awaken himself?

    Definitely a possiblity and a pretty interesting one too as it would be the only case we've had in the game so far of an Elder Dragon actively plotting to kill and steal the power of another Elder Dragon.

    Considering Mordrmeoth is the Dragon of Minds I kinda want all this to be true.
    Mordy was criticized a lot for it's dominion over the mind yet it was never really shown all that much outside of the Sylvari.
    If he's been manipulating the sylvari all along so he could orchestrate the death of another Elder Dragon that add's a good chunk of malicious and intelligent character to the Dragon of minds prior to the Scarlet saga where he had direct access to a minions mind to orchestrate his awakening.

    Everything Sylvari comes into question then.. Caithes Wyld Hunt being the same as ours? no coincidence that she ended up being part of the team that killed Zhaitan then is it?

    Traherne's wyld hunt to cleanse orr.. odd coincidence that plant magic from Caladbolg which was born from one of the Pale Tree's thorns was able to reverse Zhaitans corruption..
    Did we really cleanse orr in the end? or were we just laying the groundwork for Mordremoth to spread into Zhaitans territory after we killed it?

    If we play a Sylvari ourselves it's hard to overlook the fact that 3 Sylvari played massive roles in the death of Zhaitan.
    2 of which where leading the entire Pact movement against Zhaitan.
    And isn't it also just a tad suspicious that we took the pact into Orr and killed Zhaitan without too much trouble but when we attempted to do the same in the Magumma Jungle Mordremoth obliterated the pact forces with next to no effort at all.. and thousands of Sylvari turned then and there.
    How long had Modremoth been orchestrating that ambush I wonder.. could it have been as far back as the personal story?

    Who knows :)

    You forget the fact the Mordremoth was unconscious until the very last minute of Season 1, with Scarlet dying while her machine woke him up.
    I think that the Sylvari gained independence and free will was precisely BECAUSE he was asleep and couldn't corrupt their minds.
    The Wyld Hunt came to be because they sought a reason for existence, not know they should be Dragon minions.
    As for the Shadow of the dragon, I think they simply reused the model.
    Or the player's Wyld Hunt simply was to kill that season 2 boss and not Zhaitan.
    We don't even know if the Dragon Caithe saw in her dream was the same as we saw, as she was called back into the dream to help Sylvari players.

    As for the Shadow part of its name, I think it's not actual Shadow Magic related, but more figurative speaking like "a shadow of your former self", representing the same entity albeit being much less in every way.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Pretty sure I read somewhere that stealth based skills like the thief class uses are a form of Shadow Magic, likewise they have a traitline called Shadow Arts.

    During the personal story there are a few instances where Zhaitans minions would stealth themselves to pull off ambushes, That would be a display of Shadow Magic imo.

    Your probably right, but it’s most likely a different type of Shadow magic, as I don’t think we are actually tapping into Zhaitan’s influence, same as our fire magic isn’t likely from Primordus and Jormag with ice etc.

    Yes it’s definitely possible that these ambushes are Shadow Magic references, much like the wraiths on board the airship mission.

    I was mainly looking at what is shown in the game with the Shadow of the Dragon and somewhat reverse engineering to see if it made sense for Zhaitan to use it in a similar way.

    It's an interesting creature for sure..

    Shadow of the Dragon goes back way before Mordremoth too, first time we see it is after first creating Sylvari characters.
    It's said to be a shadowy manifestation of evil that's supposed to represent Zhaitan.
    Then it shows up in the real world as a champion of Mordremoth..

    It begs questions like..
    Did Caithe etc just misinterpret the attack on the dream and attribute Shadow to Zhaitan because he was the most pressing threat at the time?
    Was Mordremoth actually responsible for the nightmare assault on the dream?
    Did Mordremoth need Zhaitan's magic before it could manifest this champion in the real world?

    It makes me curious as to whether Mordremoth has been pulling strings right from the beginning of Gw2.
    If Shadow of the Dragon was always his champion then Mordremoth was responsible for the attack on the dream.. but to what end or purpose?
    Could Mordremoth have been using Shadow of the Dragon to manipulate the Sylvari concept of a Wyld Hunt in order to encourage his Sylvari to take up arms and kill Zhaitan?
    Was that just the first step in his master plan to awaken himself?

    Definitely a possiblity and a pretty interesting one too as it would be the only case we've had in the game so far of an Elder Dragon actively plotting to kill and steal the power of another Elder Dragon.

    Considering Mordrmeoth is the Dragon of Minds I kinda want all this to be true.
    Mordy was criticized a lot for it's dominion over the mind yet it was never really shown all that much outside of the Sylvari.
    If he's been manipulating the sylvari all along so he could orchestrate the death of another Elder Dragon that add's a good chunk of malicious and intelligent character to the Dragon of minds prior to the Scarlet saga where he had direct access to a minions mind to orchestrate his awakening.

    Everything Sylvari comes into question then.. Caithes Wyld Hunt being the same as ours? no coincidence that she ended up being part of the team that killed Zhaitan then is it?

    Traherne's wyld hunt to cleanse orr.. odd coincidence that plant magic from Caladbolg which was born from one of the Pale Tree's thorns was able to reverse Zhaitans corruption..
    Did we really cleanse orr in the end? or were we just laying the groundwork for Mordremoth to spread into Zhaitans territory after we killed it?

    If we play a Sylvari ourselves it's hard to overlook the fact that 3 Sylvari played massive roles in the death of Zhaitan.
    2 of which where leading the entire Pact movement against Zhaitan.
    And isn't it also just a tad suspicious that we took the pact into Orr and killed Zhaitan without too much trouble but when we attempted to do the same in the Magumma Jungle Mordremoth obliterated the pact forces with next to no effort at all.. and thousands of Sylvari turned then and there.
    How long had Modremoth been orchestrating that ambush I wonder.. could it have been as far back as the personal story?

    Who knows :)

    You forget the fact the Mordremoth was unconscious until the very last minute of Season 1, with Scarlet dying while her machine woke him up.
    I think that the Sylvari gained independence and free will was precisely BECAUSE he was asleep and couldn't corrupt their minds.
    The Wyld Hunt came to be because they sought a reason for existence, not know they should be Dragon minions.
    As for the Shadow of the dragon, I think they simply reused the model.
    Or the player's Wyld Hunt simply was to kill that season 2 boss and not Zhaitan.
    We don't even know if the Dragon Caithe saw in her dream was the same as we saw, as she was called back into the dream to help Sylvari players.

    As for the Shadow part of its name, I think it's not actual Shadow Magic related, but more figurative speaking like "a shadow of your former self", representing the same entity albeit being much less in every way.

    I wouldn’t say that Mordremoth was unconscious, he was still guiding Scarlet into doing what he needed to do to fully wake up. Just like Jormag, who as it states to the PC, dreaming beneath the ice. This occurred in Season1, notice the first line.

    Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd's machine, you've been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours.
    Scarlet Briar: Let me be clear. I'm not doing this for you; I'm doing it for me. Nobody tells me what to do. Not ever.
    Scarlet Briar: It's not true. None of it. I don't have to listen to you. Get out of my head!
    Marjory Delaqua: I wonder if the voices in her head are real? What if what she saw in Omadd's machine grabbed hold of her?
    Marjory Delaqua: Scarlet rejected the Pale Tree because she wanted independence. What if Omadd's machine cost her that?
    Marjory Delaqua: Ironic that she rejected the Pale Tree to exert her independence, only to lose it to something else.

    I’m actually more curious if let’s say Zhaitan in his magic provided Mordremoth with knowledge of the Pact fleet. Essentially how they performed in Orr, which would give Mordremoth the upper hand. Much like how Aurene was provided knowledge from Balthazar and kinda similar to what Kralkatorrik said as well.

    From War Eternal:

    Zafirah: She had to die. "For this was the fire of courage..."
    Aurene: "And so did they...follow their god into battle."
    Zafirah: "Without fear or hesitation."

    So how did Aurene know to quote this line. Maybe absorbing Balthazar gained this knowledge as well as possible memories. Aurene also seems to know a lot about the Mist locations as well, which I imagine was knowledge she got from Balthazar.

    Also Kralkatorrik says this during the final battle:

    Kralkatorrik: Your first words... I heard them.
    Aurene: I'm not you.
    Kralkatorrik: But you are of me. And soon I will be of you.

    Is it possible that when the Elder Dragons absorb each other’s magic they also absorb their knowledge, essence or experiences?

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Shadow of the Dragon goes back way before Mordremoth too, first time we see it is after first creating Sylvari characters.
    It's said to be a shadowy manifestation of evil that's supposed to represent Zhaitan.
    Then it shows up in the real world as a champion of Mordremoth..

    It begs questions like..
    Did Caithe etc just misinterpret the attack on the dream and attribute Shadow to Zhaitan because he was the most pressing threat at the time?
    Was Mordremoth actually responsible for the nightmare assault on the dream?
    Did Mordremoth need Zhaitan's magic before it could manifest this champion in the real world?

    One of the earlier bits of sylvari lore presented before the release was that the Shadow of the Dragon represents the Elder Dragons in general - not just Zhaitan. When we, the player, sees it, it represents a Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan. But when other sylvari sees it, it represents Wyld Hunts to kill minions of the Elder Dragons in general.

    Though this lore wasn't ever really brought up in-game, so it's unclear if it was meant to remain canon. The entirety of the Shadow of the Dragon's role got altered with Season 2 and how the altered version met the original left utterly unclear since Nightmare != Mordremoth is established in HoT (though S2 hints that Nightmare=Mordremoth - ah, contradictions upon contradictions!).

    As for what Mordy needed to manifest the Shadow of the Dragon in Tyria - it probably needed to be awake. Keep in mind that it woke up at the end of Season 1, before then only able to influence the world via its connection to Scarlet created via Omadd's Machine.

    Everything Sylvari comes into question then.. Caithes Wyld Hunt being the same as ours? no coincidence that she ended up being part of the team that killed Zhaitan then is it?

    Traherne's wyld hunt to cleanse orr.. odd coincidence that plant magic from Caladbolg which was born from one of the Pale Tree's thorns was able to reverse Zhaitans corruption..
    Did we really cleanse orr in the end? or were we just laying the groundwork for Mordremoth to spread into Zhaitans territory after we killed it?

    If we play a Sylvari ourselves it's hard to overlook the fact that 3 Sylvari played massive roles in the death of Zhaitan.
    2 of which where leading the entire Pact movement against Zhaitan.
    And isn't it also just a tad suspicious that we took the pact into Orr and killed Zhaitan without too much trouble but when we attempted to do the same in the Magumma Jungle Mordremoth obliterated the pact forces with next to no effort at all.. and thousands of Sylvari turned then and there.
    How long had Modremoth been orchestrating that ambush I wonder.. could it have been as far back as the personal story?

    It doesn't need to be Mordremoth orchestrating all of this though. The Dream of Dreams and the Nightmare are both presented to be sapient entities of unclear origin and... composition, shall we say. We still don't know what exactly the Dream is, but it's clearly opposed to the Elder Dragons - not just Zhaitan, but all six. The Dream of Dreams gives the PC a Wyld Hunt to kill Mordremoth after the World Summit attack (tbh, I'm surprised they didn't squeeze in a Wyld Hunt to slay Kralkatorrik too).

    All these squares make a circle.
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  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    You forget the fact the Mordremoth was unconscious until the very last minute of Season 1, with Scarlet dying while her machine woke him up.
    I think that the Sylvari gained independence and free will was precisely BECAUSE he was asleep and couldn't corrupt their minds.
    The Wyld Hunt came to be because they sought a reason for existence, not know they should be Dragon minions.
    As for the Shadow of the dragon, I think they simply reused the model.
    Or the player's Wyld Hunt simply was to kill that season 2 boss and not Zhaitan.
    We don't even know if the Dragon Caithe saw in her dream was the same as we saw, as she was called back into the dream to help Sylvari players.

    As for the Shadow part of its name, I think it's not actual Shadow Magic related, but more figurative speaking like "a shadow of your former self", representing the same entity albeit being much less in every way.

    While we still don't know why the sylvari of the Pale Tree and Malyck's Tree are independent, it's very clearly not because of Mordremoth being asleep. Keep in mind that every Elder Dragon has minions that become active before the Elder Dragon tiself - Jormag had Drakkar and Svanir; Primordus had The Great Destroyer; Kralkatorrik had Glint; and Zhaitan supposedly had the Giganticus Lupicus. Glint could only betray Kralkatorrik because of the ritual used on her by the Forgotten.

    Distance or "the Elder Dragon is asleep" has never resulted in minions gaining independence.

    Wyld Hunts (and Dark Hunts from the Nightmare) are given by the Dream of Dreams, which proven by Malyck, is technically 100% independent from sylvari and Mordremoth. Mordremoth doesn't control the Drream, merely hijacks it; just as the Pale Tree doesn't, but uses it to protect sylvari from dragon corruption.

    And with the Shadow of the Dragon - it's more of a reused model, as it's stated by sylvari PC that it's the same creature as witnessed in the Dream of Dreams during The World Summit (same time they get a Wyld Hunt to slay Mordremoth). So we do know that the dragon in the tutorial is the same, "physically", but we don't know if it served Mordremoth during the tutorial or was corrupted later on or something.

    And yeah, the name isn't relating to shadow magic. OP was using it because it summons shadowy creatures during The Mystery Cave in the Season 2 finale. While during The World Summit, it doesn't. During The World Summit, it summoned regular mordrem and "Dragon Tendrils", while during The Mystery Cave, it summons "Smothering Shadows", "Malformed Shadows", and "Shadow Tendrils".

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  • Juillin.5361Juillin.5361 Member ✭✭
    edited January 10, 2020

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    Zafirah: She had to die. "For this was the fire of courage..."
    Aurene: "And so did they...follow their god into battle."
    Zafirah: "Without fear or hesitation."

    So how did Aurene know to quote this line. Maybe absorbing Balthazar gained this knowledge as well as possible memories. Aurene also seems to know a lot about the Mist locations as well, which I imagine was knowledge she got from Balthazar.

    Keep in mind that the Exalted's entire existence was centered around Aurene. Their whole reason for being was to raise her in a way that she would love and respect humans, so she would have to be a little versed in their culture, including religion. They themselves were formerly humans, so the most likely answer for this one is that she picked it up while being tutored by them, and there was a lot of time for that between the various S3/4 episodes. Basically the Tyrian version of a kid in Sunday School.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Pretty sure I read somewhere that stealth based skills like the thief class uses are a form of Shadow Magic, likewise they have a traitline called Shadow Arts.

    During the personal story there are a few instances where Zhaitans minions would stealth themselves to pull off ambushes, That would be a display of Shadow Magic imo.

    Your probably right, but it’s most likely a different type of Shadow magic, as I don’t think we are actually tapping into Zhaitan’s influence, same as our fire magic isn’t likely from Primordus and Jormag with ice etc.

    Yes it’s definitely possible that these ambushes are Shadow Magic references, much like the wraiths on board the airship mission.

    I was mainly looking at what is shown in the game with the Shadow of the Dragon and somewhat reverse engineering to see if it made sense for Zhaitan to use it in a similar way.

    It's an interesting creature for sure..

    Shadow of the Dragon goes back way before Mordremoth too, first time we see it is after first creating Sylvari characters.
    It's said to be a shadowy manifestation of evil that's supposed to represent Zhaitan.
    Then it shows up in the real world as a champion of Mordremoth..

    It begs questions like..
    Did Caithe etc just misinterpret the attack on the dream and attribute Shadow to Zhaitan because he was the most pressing threat at the time?
    Was Mordremoth actually responsible for the nightmare assault on the dream?
    Did Mordremoth need Zhaitan's magic before it could manifest this champion in the real world?

    It makes me curious as to whether Mordremoth has been pulling strings right from the beginning of Gw2.
    If Shadow of the Dragon was always his champion then Mordremoth was responsible for the attack on the dream.. but to what end or purpose?
    Could Mordremoth have been using Shadow of the Dragon to manipulate the Sylvari concept of a Wyld Hunt in order to encourage his Sylvari to take up arms and kill Zhaitan?
    Was that just the first step in his master plan to awaken himself?

    Definitely a possiblity and a pretty interesting one too as it would be the only case we've had in the game so far of an Elder Dragon actively plotting to kill and steal the power of another Elder Dragon.

    Considering Mordrmeoth is the Dragon of Minds I kinda want all this to be true.
    Mordy was criticized a lot for it's dominion over the mind yet it was never really shown all that much outside of the Sylvari.
    If he's been manipulating the sylvari all along so he could orchestrate the death of another Elder Dragon that add's a good chunk of malicious and intelligent character to the Dragon of minds prior to the Scarlet saga where he had direct access to a minions mind to orchestrate his awakening.

    Everything Sylvari comes into question then.. Caithes Wyld Hunt being the same as ours? no coincidence that she ended up being part of the team that killed Zhaitan then is it?

    Traherne's wyld hunt to cleanse orr.. odd coincidence that plant magic from Caladbolg which was born from one of the Pale Tree's thorns was able to reverse Zhaitans corruption..
    Did we really cleanse orr in the end? or were we just laying the groundwork for Mordremoth to spread into Zhaitans territory after we killed it?

    If we play a Sylvari ourselves it's hard to overlook the fact that 3 Sylvari played massive roles in the death of Zhaitan.
    2 of which where leading the entire Pact movement against Zhaitan.
    And isn't it also just a tad suspicious that we took the pact into Orr and killed Zhaitan without too much trouble but when we attempted to do the same in the Magumma Jungle Mordremoth obliterated the pact forces with next to no effort at all.. and thousands of Sylvari turned then and there.
    How long had Modremoth been orchestrating that ambush I wonder.. could it have been as far back as the personal story?

    Who knows :)

    You forget the fact the Mordremoth was unconscious until the very last minute of Season 1, with Scarlet dying while her machine woke him up.

    As Konig and Tyson pointed out there, Elder Dragons don't need to be awake exactly to control their minions.
    I'll add too that there is a book in the Durmand Priory's Special Collections called A Treatise on the Shadow of the Dragon which details that many Sylvari prior to awakening have encountered this creature in the dream as well, but only our PC's encounter has been deemed as significant.

    We don't even know if the Dragon Caithe saw in her dream was the same as we saw, as she was called back into the dream to help Sylvari players.

    Caithe is the only Sylvari known to have 2 Wyld Hunts, first was killing Zhaitan and the other was protecting Glint's Egg/Aurine.
    We don't know what she did or saw in her own dream but it's likely she didn't fight and kill a Shadow of the dragon as her Wyld Hunt was not to kill Mordremoth even though she was present and played a role in his Death as she did with Zhaitan.
    What we do know though is that Caithe was aware of Mordremoth's existence during our dream but didn't appear to make any connection between Shadow of the Dragon and Mordremoth, possibly due to Mordremoths currently absent influence on the world.

    I think that the Sylvari gained independence and free will was precisely BECAUSE he was asleep and couldn't corrupt their minds.

    Sylvari independence on the other hand has largely been due to the Pale tree protecting them from Mordremoths corruption/influence through the dream of dreams.
    The Pale tree is essentially a blighting tree, but due to the actions of Ventari and Ronan who nurtured and cared for her she became a good and noble entity that embraces their philosophy and passes it onto her children in the dream of dreams, effecitvley giving them the same freedom and protection from Mordremoth as she has long enjoyed herself.
    If Ronan and Ventari hadn't cared for her and she hadn't been influenced by their philosophy then she very likely would have been pumping out Mordrem for years prior to the awakening of Mordremoth.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Caithe is the only Sylvari known to have 2 Wyld Hunts, first was killing Zhaitan and the other was protecting Glint's Egg/Aurine.

    Well, if you exclude the PC, who has had three Wyld Hunts (Biography choice, Kill Zhaitan, Kill Mordremoth). The last of the Wyld Hunts didn't have a vision associated with it - it was, like with most sylvari, just a "feeling" (for lack of a better word) applied to the sylvari.

    But I don't think that's true either, given Wyld Hunts are not provided at awakening all the time (it's actually uncommon).

    Sylvari independence on the other hand has largely been due to the Pale tree protecting them from Mordremoths corruption/influence through the dream of dreams.
    The Pale tree is essentially a blighting tree, but due to the actions of Ventari and Ronan who nurtured and cared for her she became a good and noble entity that embraces their philosophy and passes it onto her children in the dream of dreams, effecitvley giving them the same freedom and protection from Mordremoth as she has long enjoyed herself.
    If Ronan and Ventari hadn't cared for her and she hadn't been influenced by their philosophy then she very likely would have been pumping out Mordrem for years prior to the awakening of Mordremoth.

    You're only half right. Ronan and Ventari's teachings did shape the Pale Tree, but they were not the ones who separated the Pale Tree from Mordremoth's control. It must be stressed that the game assets, time and time again, that dragon minions - including mordrem - have no free will. The idea of "the power of love and friendship saves the day" is non-existent in Tyria.

    Despite this, people still have the false notion that it was Ventari's nurture that made the Pale Tree rebel against Mordremoth. This is not so. We do not know what gave the Pale Tree free will, but it was not Ventari. We know this because 1) we get told explicitly time and time again that only ancient and powerful magics can free a dragon minion, and 2) Malyck and his tree are also free but had no such raising.

    If Ventari and Ronan hadn't cared for the Pale Tree, what she'd be producing is Malycks. Sylvari who are free of the tablet's morals, but also free of Mordremoth. Effectively making them blank slates in morality and obedience.

    Given that Malyck and its tree is free of Mordremoth's control, it's likely that "the event" that gave the Pale Tree free will occurred to the entire cave of seeds and "terrible plant creatures" that Ronan found (which are never said to have been hostile to Ronan btw).

    Side note: I theorize that the Tower of Nightmares was another "purified Blighting Tree" like the Pale Tree and Malyck's Tree for a few reasons:
    1) Scarlet provided the seed that grew, very fast, into this oversized tree.
    2) The tree produced a krait-shaped sylvari-looking creature.
    3) The Tower of Nightmares was our first hint of Mordremoth's powers, including Mordremoth's theme in the music, and was compared to dragon corruption.
    4) The tree was sapient and aware of its surroundings, as noted by Marjory before killing it.
    5) The design of the Tower of Nightmares' top "flower" has some similarity designs to the Vinewrath.
    6) In Aetherpath, Scarlet suggests she knew Caithe's secret, and it's also suggested Scarlet knew of Malyck.

    Which makes me see the Pale Tree, Malyck's Tree, and the Tower of Nightmares as all being "purified Blighting Trees", but one raised under kindness, one raised independently, and one raised under cruelty. The one raised under cruelty showing clear similarities to Mordrem, while still being finely different.

    All these squares make a circle.
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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Caithe is the only Sylvari known to have 2 Wyld Hunts, first was killing Zhaitan and the other was protecting Glint's Egg/Aurine.

    Well, if you exclude the PC, who has had three Wyld Hunts (Biography choice, Kill Zhaitan, Kill Mordremoth). The last of the Wyld Hunts didn't have a vision associated with it - it was, like with most sylvari, just a "feeling" (for lack of a better word) applied to the sylvari.

    But I don't think that's true either, given Wyld Hunts are not provided at awakening all the time (it's actually uncommon).

    I prefer to think of it as just 2 tbh, our dream to kill Shadow could be seen as our Wyld Hunt is to fight dragons in general rather than just a specific one or two..
    Then again it could manifest as a double meaning.. Shadow of the Dragon being a champion of Mordremoth but also a Dragon of Shadow representing both Mordremoth and Zhaitan at the same time.
    But we've killed 3 Dragons now and a God without any Wyld Hunt so I think Shadow of the Dragon in the dream just represents Elder Dragons in general.

    Sylvari independence on the other hand has largely been due to the Pale tree protecting them from Mordremoths corruption/influence through the dream of dreams.
    The Pale tree is essentially a blighting tree, but due to the actions of Ventari and Ronan who nurtured and cared for her she became a good and noble entity that embraces their philosophy and passes it onto her children in the dream of dreams, effecitvley giving them the same freedom and protection from Mordremoth as she has long enjoyed herself.
    If Ronan and Ventari hadn't cared for her and she hadn't been influenced by their philosophy then she very likely would have been pumping out Mordrem for years prior to the awakening of Mordremoth.

    It must be stressed that the game assets, time and time again, that dragon minions - including mordrem - have no free will. The idea of "the power of love and friendship saves the day" is non-existent in Tyria.

    That's not entirely true, many of Jormag's minions serve it willingly and embrace it's corruption, which is one of the main reasons Jormag is so much more interesting than the last 3 we've dealt with.
    Likewise we have seen Mordrem temporarily seperated from Mordremoth retain their free will.
    For the most part though once the dragon takes hold they are in every single way enslaved to it's will and yeah no love and friendship can save the day.

    Despite this, people still have the false notion that it was Ventari's nurture that made the Pale Tree rebel against Mordremoth. This is not so. We do not know what gave the Pale Tree free will, but it was not Ventari. We know this because 1) we get told explicitly time and time again that only ancient and powerful magics can free a dragon minion, and 2) Malyck and his tree are also free but had no such raising.

    We know Pale Tree had knowledge of Mordremoth from at least as far back as her firstborn Sylvari so it would make sense that she has spent a great amount of time and effort fighting his nightmare in the dream and preparing for his awakening so when he finally did awaken and demand her submission she had the fortitude to resist and say No.

    I think Free will only plays one big part in that event, a lot of her determination to continue to exist as she is and resist Mordremoths calling came from her beliefs and the strength they give her.
    Ventari's Teachings are extremely important in that regard which is why people simplify it to "Ventari's nurturing made her rebel"
    You are correct and it's not just that simple.. but his nurturing did play a big role in who the Pale Tree became as a being, and who she became as a being is important to her choice to reject Mordremoth as her master.
    This we can see reflected in virtually every Sylvari who also resisted him as well.
    Ventari's teachings definitely influenced this strength of willpower in the Sylvari, but yes Ventari's teachings did not give the Sylvari or the Pale Tree free will.

    If Ventari and Ronan hadn't cared for the Pale Tree, what she'd be producing is Malycks. Sylvari who are free of the tablet's morals, but also free of Mordremoth. Effectively making them blank slates in morality and obedience.

    Given that Malyck and its tree is free of Mordremoth's control, it's likely that "the event" that gave the Pale Tree free will occurred to the entire cave of seeds and "terrible plant creatures" that Ronan found (which are never said to have been hostile to Ronan btw).

    I advise caution regarding Malyck since we've never seen any other Sylvari from his Tree nor has there even been any mention of another tree since his little story arc.
    This storyline despite it's huge importance to lore appears to have been almost totally thrown out the window.. which is really disappointing.
    Last we heard from Malyck he was heading into the Heart of Magumma to find his people.. if that's indeed where his tree was then there is a very, very high probability that his tree and all the Sylvari it created became Mordrem when Mordremoth woke up.
    (according to Wiki there were plans for this tree to appear in HoT)

    What seperates Pale Tree from the others though would be the Tablet and the values it holds.
    It's not what give her free will but it is what made her a good entity and give her and many of her Sylvari the willpower to resist Mordremoth and Nightmare.
    Without those Values Sylvari tend to get drawn closer to Nightmare and their natural state.. making them much easier for Mordremoth to corrupt when he awakens.

    Side note: I theorize that the Tower of Nightmares was another "purified Blighting Tree" like the Pale Tree and Malyck's Tree for a few reasons:
    1) Scarlet provided the seed that grew, very fast, into this oversized tree.
    2) The tree produced a krait-shaped sylvari-looking creature.
    3) The Tower of Nightmares was our first hint of Mordremoth's powers, including Mordremoth's theme in the music, and was compared to dragon corruption.
    4) The tree was sapient and aware of its surroundings, as noted by Marjory before killing it.
    5) The design of the Tower of Nightmares' top "flower" has some similarity designs to the Vinewrath.
    6) In Aetherpath, Scarlet suggests she knew Caithe's secret, and it's also suggested Scarlet knew of Malyck.

    Which makes me see the Pale Tree, Malyck's Tree, and the Tower of Nightmares as all being "purified Blighting Trees", but one raised under kindness, one raised independently, and one raised under cruelty. The one raised under cruelty showing clear similarities to Mordrem, while still being finely different.

    That's a good way of looking at it.
    I never give much thought to the Tower of Nightmares but yeah, it makes sense as another blighting tree.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I prefer to think of it as just 2 tbh, our dream to kill Shadow could be seen as our Wyld Hunt is to fight dragons in general rather than just a specific one or two..
    Then again it could manifest as a double meaning.. Shadow of the Dragon being a champion of Mordremoth but also a Dragon of Shadow representing both Mordremoth and Zhaitan at the same time.
    But we've killed 3 Dragons now and a God without any Wyld Hunt so I think Shadow of the Dragon in the dream just represents Elder Dragons in general.

    That's possible, as I do think Trahearne suggests it's the same one resurfacing when the sylvari PC and Trahearne talk about a new Wyld Hunt to kill Mordremoth. But there was never any mention of a Wyld Hunt to kill Kralkatorrik, which is curious.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    That's not entirely true, many of Jormag's minions serve it willingly and embrace it's corruption, which is one of the main reasons Jormag is so much more interesting than the last 3 we've dealt with.
    Likewise we have seen Mordrem temporarily seperated from Mordremoth retain their free will.
    For the most part though once the dragon takes hold they are in every single way enslaved to it's will and yeah no love and friendship can save the day.

    Nothing shows the Icebrood to have free will (yet). Yes, they're largely made of norn and other creatures who willingly become corrupted, but that doesn't mean they retain their free will post-corruption.

    With the mordrem, the only case of them being separated from Mordremoth is Mordrem Guard - sylvari who have not been corrupted, but mentally punished into servitude. The Mordrem Guard, by all indications, are never corrupted, because they're still protected by the Dream of Dreams (what we're told is what gives the sylvari immunity in S2 and in HoT promotional articles; the Dream is also how Mordremoth accesses their minds, and how Mordy sends "the Call"). The fact the Mordrem Guard are technically not corrupted is why they can regain their senses once separated from Mordremoth's mental bombardment/subtle whispers/commands.

    The only arguably exception to the firmly established rule of "those corrupted by dragon energy lose all free will" would be Mawdrey which is a nice big pile of "how the flying heck does this work with lore?" But we do feed Mawdrey a number of vastly different types of magic, including destroyer magic, Mists magic, and Foefire magic. And the last is firmly established to be highly counteractive to dragon corruption so... -shrug-. It's also introduced during the time period where ArenaNet seems wishy-washy on what exactly the origin of Nightmare and sylvari 'purity' is. But then again, we also have branded mounts which make no sense at all without some sort of cleansing situation going on that's never mentioned so...

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Ventari's Teachings are extremely important in that regard which is why people simplify it to "Ventari's nurturing made her rebel"
    You are correct and it's not just that simple.. but his nurturing did play a big role in who the Pale Tree became as a being, and who she became as a being is important to her choice to reject Mordremoth as her master.

    Well, most people sadly do argue that "Ventari's teachings freed her from Mordremoth" and not as a simplification. Which is why when I see it, I point out that's not the case.

    I would agree that Ventari's teachings did help her decide to go against Mordremoth, but it wasn't what gave her the capability to go against Mordremoth.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I advise caution regarding Malyck since we've never seen any other Sylvari from his Tree nor has there even been any mention of another tree since his little story arc.
    This storyline despite it's huge importance to lore appears to have been almost totally thrown out the window.. which is really disappointing.
    Last we heard from Malyck he was heading into the Heart of Magumma to find his people.. if that's indeed where his tree was then there is a very, very high probability that his tree and all the Sylvari it created became Mordrem when Mordremoth woke up.
    (according to Wiki there were plans for this tree to appear in HoT)

    Thing is, from what we were told about those plans to have him in HoT we know that Malyck and his tree weren't Blighted, which is also something to consider. Even when faced with Mordremoth, they weren't turned towards serving Mordremoth. We were also told that Matthew Medina was working on a way to bring Malyck back into the plot. Which would indicate that Malyck - and perhaps his tree - survived the fiasco in HoT entirely. Sadly, then the layoffs happened and Medina was among those let go, with no indication if his work got picked up by another.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Juillin.5361 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    Zafirah: She had to die. "For this was the fire of courage..."
    Aurene: "And so did they...follow their god into battle."
    Zafirah: "Without fear or hesitation."

    So how did Aurene know to quote this line. Maybe absorbing Balthazar gained this knowledge as well as possible memories. Aurene also seems to know a lot about the Mist locations as well, which I imagine was knowledge she got from Balthazar.

    Keep in mind that the Exalted's entire existence was centered around Aurene. Their whole reason for being was to raise her in a way that she would love and respect humans, so she would have to be a little versed in their culture, including religion. They themselves were formerly humans, so the most likely answer for this one is that she picked it up while being tutored by them, and there was a lot of time for that between the various S3/4 episodes. Basically the Tyrian version of a kid in Sunday School.

    Yeah, I thought of that too, as well as her prophetic ability giving her insights in knowledge she shouldn’t have. That being said, I went through War eternal again and she seems to know which God Realm is which, somehow. this could be for the sake of the player as well introducing the areas that would show up in Dragonfall as well.

    I think it should also be noted of the fact that people can sense Balthazar in Aurene. Zafirah makes mention near the beginning of All or nothing.

    Zafirah: What... Balthazar? I can feel him...
    : Ah, right. You haven't met Aurene in person.
    Zafirah: I...never expected to feel his presence again. And in a dragon...
    Caithe: She's a very special dragon

    Balthazar sword as well as the denizens of the Fissure of Woe are attracted to Aurene as well because of this reason.

    Zafirah: It seeks Balthazar. Senses his magic. I don't understand—Balthazar was never here...
    : But Aurene was.
    Zafirah: The sword perceives him... through her? Just who is this dragon of yours?

    Spearmarshal Zaeim: Those shadow creatures aren't giving us an inch.
    Caithe: They've been fighting over this forest for centuries. Cursed to fight Balthazar and his Eternals for...well, eternity.
    Spearmarshal Zaeim: Right, but we're neither of those things.
    Caithe: It isn't us. It's Balthazar's magic. Aurene absorbed it after Vabbi, remember?
    Spearmarshal Zaeim: And just because they sense his presence, they attack us?
    Caithe: Look on the bright side: Kralkatorrik absorbed it, too- so they hate his Branded just as much as us.
    Spearmarshal Zaeim: True. "The enemy of my enemy."
    Caithe: Who is, in this case, still our enemy. But at least it puts things into perspective.

    Could they simply sense his magic and that’s it or something more. Whenever they advise of Balthazar’s magic there’s always a mention of his presence as well.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I prefer to think of it as just 2 tbh, our dream to kill Shadow could be seen as our Wyld Hunt is to fight dragons in general rather than just a specific one or two..
    Then again it could manifest as a double meaning.. Shadow of the Dragon being a champion of Mordremoth but also a Dragon of Shadow representing both Mordremoth and Zhaitan at the same time.
    But we've killed 3 Dragons now and a God without any Wyld Hunt so I think Shadow of the Dragon in the dream just represents Elder Dragons in general.

    That's possible, as I do think Trahearne suggests it's the same one resurfacing when the sylvari PC and Trahearne talk about a new Wyld Hunt to kill Mordremoth. But there was never any mention of a Wyld Hunt to kill Kralkatorrik, which is curious.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    That's not entirely true, many of Jormag's minions serve it willingly and embrace it's corruption, which is one of the main reasons Jormag is so much more interesting than the last 3 we've dealt with.
    Likewise we have seen Mordrem temporarily seperated from Mordremoth retain their free will.
    For the most part though once the dragon takes hold they are in every single way enslaved to it's will and yeah no love and friendship can save the day.

    Nothing shows the Icebrood to have free will (yet). Yes, they're largely made of norn and other creatures who willingly become corrupted, but that doesn't mean they retain their free will post-corruption.

    True, for icebrood at least there isn't anything concrete.
    However Jormags attitude to the Sons is very curious.. why does it keep them around free and unbound from it's corruption when it is so much easier to just corrupt and enslave like all other Dragons have done.
    If Jormag finds having it's Sons followers retain their free will beneficial then surely it would find that same trait useful in it's Icebrood as well, specifically among the higher ranking generals and champions etc.
    It's a curious dragon for sure and i'm very much looking forward to more Jormag in the coming releases.. about time we had a Dragon that actually had a different motive than just burn it all down lol

    With the mordrem, the only case of them being separated from Mordremoth is Mordrem Guard - sylvari who have not been corrupted, but mentally punished into servitude. The Mordrem Guard, by all indications, are never corrupted, because they're still protected by the Dream of Dreams (what we're told is what gives the sylvari immunity in S2 and in HoT promotional articles; the Dream is also how Mordremoth accesses their minds, and how Mordy sends "the Call"). The fact the Mordrem Guard are technically not corrupted is why they can regain their senses once separated from Mordremoth's mental bombardment/subtle whispers/commands.

    The mordrem I was thinking of is in one of the HoT missions (I forget which one) I think there's an acheivement around it too where you have a conversation with it before Mordremoth reconnects with this lost minion and it turns hostile.
    Until that point though it seemed confused and like a normal Sylvari again.

    The only arguably exception to the firmly established rule of "those corrupted by dragon energy lose all free will" would be Mawdrey which is a nice big pile of "how the flying heck does this work with lore?" But we do feed Mawdrey a number of vastly different types of magic, including destroyer magic, Mists magic, and Foefire magic. And the last is firmly established to be highly counteractive to dragon corruption so... -shrug-. It's also introduced during the time period where ArenaNet seems wishy-washy on what exactly the origin of Nightmare and sylvari 'purity' is. But then again, we also have branded mounts which make no sense at all without some sort of cleansing situation going on that's never mentioned so...

    Yeah I think items and skins like this are no good to mix into any actual lore.
    Too many conflicts for what are essentially things that mostly exist cause fashion wars XD

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I advise caution regarding Malyck since we've never seen any other Sylvari from his Tree nor has there even been any mention of another tree since his little story arc.
    This storyline despite it's huge importance to lore appears to have been almost totally thrown out the window.. which is really disappointing.
    Last we heard from Malyck he was heading into the Heart of Magumma to find his people.. if that's indeed where his tree was then there is a very, very high probability that his tree and all the Sylvari it created became Mordrem when Mordremoth woke up.
    (according to Wiki there were plans for this tree to appear in HoT)

    Thing is, from what we were told about those plans to have him in HoT we know that Malyck and his tree weren't Blighted, which is also something to consider. Even when faced with Mordremoth, they weren't turned towards serving Mordremoth. We were also told that Matthew Medina was working on a way to bring Malyck back into the plot. Which would indicate that Malyck - and perhaps his tree - survived the fiasco in HoT entirely. Sadly, then the layoffs happened and Medina was among those let go, with no indication if his work got picked up by another.

    It's very disappointing isnt it..
    A shame no more was done and probably won't ever be done with that arc.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    True, for icebrood at least there isn't anything concrete.
    However Jormags attitude to the Sons is very curious.. why does it keep them around free and unbound from it's corruption when it is so much easier to just corrupt and enslave like all other Dragons have done.
    If Jormag finds having it's Sons followers retain their free will beneficial then surely it would find that same trait useful in it's Icebrood as well, specifically among the higher ranking generals and champions etc.
    It's a curious dragon for sure and i'm very much looking forward to more Jormag in the coming releases.. about time we had a Dragon that actually had a different motive than just burn it all down lol

    I think it's less of finding use in minions having free will, and more of finding use in dividing the mortals into a form of civil war to create willing converts so that minion-making isn't solely by force. This is beneficial for two reasons: 1) less work done to get new minions, and 2) less hostilities directed at Jormag specifically as mortals are bickering amongst each other.

    Wouldn't surprise me if it turns out part of the reason the ancient alliance between mursaat and Seers fell apart because of Jormag's whispering.

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    With the mordrem, the only case of them being separated from Mordremoth is Mordrem Guard - sylvari who have not been corrupted, but mentally punished into servitude. The Mordrem Guard, by all indications, are never corrupted, because they're still protected by the Dream of Dreams (what we're told is what gives the sylvari immunity in S2 and in HoT promotional articles; the Dream is also how Mordremoth accesses their minds, and how Mordy sends "the Call"). The fact the Mordrem Guard are technically not corrupted is why they can regain their senses once separated from Mordremoth's mental bombardment/subtle whispers/commands.

    The mordrem I was thinking of is in one of the HoT missions (I forget which one) I think there's an acheivement around it too where you have a conversation with it before Mordremoth reconnects with this lost minion and it turns hostile.
    Until that point though it seemed confused and like a normal Sylvari again.

    Buried Insights is the mission, and it's one of only two instances we interact with Mordrem Guard returning to their senses (the other being the Solitary Sylvari at Festival of the Four Winds).

    Which is exactly what I was referring to: when a creature is corrupted, they lose their free will, but the Mordrem Guard are shown capable of returning to their senses once Mordremoth's mental bombardment is over, just like Canach got a respite in Rata Novus, the Mordrem Guard would as well and could have the chance to return to their old selves (if not pressured into the servitude mentality by a probing Canach). This shows us that Mordrem Guard are not corrupted. Furthermore, it's told in HoT promotions such as this one and indirectly reinforced in-game that Mordremoth's "call" was sent via the Dream of Dreams, and isn't corruption but mental bombardment of sorts.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yeah I think items and skins like this are no good to mix into any actual lore.
    Too many conflicts for what are essentially things that mostly exist cause fashion wars XD

    The messy bit is that Mawdrey is given lore. Which makes it iffier than most iffy gear/skins like branded mounts, corrupted weapons, etc.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I know we had spoken about this topic in the past and the question about Zhaitan’s Shadow sphere has also been asked of Anet with unfortunately no response.

    From what we have seen with the other dragons there seems to be a Primary Sphere of Influence and a secondary sphere of influence. The dragon’s primary sphere is quite evident because it shows up in their corruption as well as their physical make up. The secondary sphere of influence appears to not work in the physical realm and appears more meta physical.

    Currently the Elder Dragons have shown mastery of the following sphere of influences.

    Zhaitan: Death and Shadow, Mordremoth: Plant and Mind, Kralkatorrik: Crystal and Fury, Jormag: Ice and Persuasion, Primordus: Fire and Conflagration, Deep Sea Dragon: Possibly Water and who knows what.

    Most of the secondary spheres seem self explanatory, except maybe Fury and Conflagration as we haven’t had a lot of examples. These Secondary Spheres really only seem to appear within the dragon themselves and don’t seem to be shared with its minions unlike the Primary Sphere. That being said once the Elder Dragon dies, the secondary sphere seems to be up for grabs for the other dragons and then can be shared among those dragon minions.

    Zhaitan’s Shadow Sphere of Influence doesn't really appear in the game and when sifting through all the Risen pages on the GW2 wiki can I really see any Risen using any Shadow abilities, hence why I figured that the secondary domain is restricted just to the Dragon. When an Elder Dragon dies that magic is up for grabs. So I went to one of the first examples of one of these hybrid dragon minions that unknowingly appeared in the game with a new sphere of influence, the Shadow of the Dragon.

    At the time of the release we did not know that the Dragons can consume their spheres of influence and push those influences onto their minions. With no clear example of Zhaitan’s Shadow influence, I looked at how the Shadow of the Dragon operated. When you fight the Shadow of the Dragon it spawns several different Shadow creatures, Shadow Tendrils, Malformed Shadows and Smothering Shadows. This appears to be clear evidence that Mordremoth consumed the Shadow influence from Zhaitan as well as the death spectrum. Mordremoth also creates Smothering Shadows in the final HoT story mission.

    As you progress the encounter, Braham throws the divine fire to activate the areas around the makeshift jungle arena to eventually be able to damage the boss. The Smothering Shadows slowly walk toward the edges of the arena and Smother the divine fire and can only be harmed by it. The dragon minions also appear to fear and run from the divine fire and energy as well, as shown by the beginning of the Mystery cave.

    After looking back at that fight, I started to wonder if Zhaitan was using the Shadow Influence to smother the divine energies of the God Temples and their statues in Orr and once the energy was smothered, use his mastery over death to use his Risen Priests and Priestesses of the Gods to corrupt the energy of the statues. I would imagine that Zhaitan would want to stop these Divine energies from scaring away his minions and would want to corrupt the essences to power himself even more.

    The ability to stop the divine energy doesn’t seem to be an ability associated to the Death Spectrum, but it seems to be an ability shown by the Shadow Spectrum as shown by the Smothering Shadows. It should also be noted that taking back the statues themselves in Orr, certain pillars that have fire on them change their influence along with the associated god statues changing back to their typical god statue influence, Melandru’s statue growing back leaves for example. The Gods themselves also can’t be view by mortal eyes because of their divine light, which would make sense that Zhaitan would have negate this influence with the Shadow Sphere.

    Thoughts?

    Good observations. I just wonder if you've developed a long-winded way of thinking about how Elder Dragon corruption works. It'll only lead to more confusion, I think.

    I really haven’t thought of a long winded explanation for dragon corruption. My interest tend to stick around with the dragons influences and how they are displayed or explained in the Tyria. The dragon corruption or the primary sphere of influence tend to mainly show up in their corruption, with entities as well as the terrain. I think even the primary spheres having varying abilities in them as well, Crystal also granting prophecy, Plant building minions as well as cloning for example.

    It was only a few years ago through a Lore AFC and nothing shown in game that only dragons absorbing the death spectrum could make use of corpses for minions.

    I believe Konig dove into this topic with more detail over the years,