Holo Needs Buffs and Nerfs (Formerly: The recent changes to Holo were good but they weren't enough.)

[wasss.1208]

Skills and traits you wish got modified, and reasons for those. These would be the most important. But if you do, please consider how it would impact the whole class. For example: nerfing rifle hurts core engi, while only nerfing exceed skills, holo traits, and holoforge would cut down the holos efficency.I would say that you should list buffs you wish to see, too, so people can debate those too, if they are good enough, or over to top. This could be lower priority now, since we are waiting for a patch that is going to nerf everything. (Also this would reduce the number of people who would call you out on witch hunting.)

And offtopic/personal opinion:

Not answering to some points isn't a problem, if people got into debates, went offtopic, etc... but I directly answered to your original concerns, and that is why I expected an answer to most points. Not answering those would give one the impression that you avoid debates that doesn't favour your view, and jump to those that have weaker reasoning, or went into personal attacks.

 

[shadowpass.4236]

@wasss.1208 said:Skills and traits you wish got modified, and reasons for those. These would be the most important. But if you do, please consider how it would impact the whole class. For example: nerfing rifle hurts core engi, while only nerfing exceed skills, holo traits, and holoforge would cut down the holos efficency.I would say that you should list buffs you wish to see, too, so people can debate those too, if they are good enough, or over to top. This could be lower priority now, since we are waiting for a patch that is going to nerf everything. (Also this would reduce the number of people who would call you out on witch hunting.)

And offtopic/personal opinion:spoiler

Yeah I think engi needs more stunbreaks on lower cooldowns and better access to non-pulsing/low cooldown stability utilities. I'll change that in a new thread or my OP when I have more time.

 

As for the spoiler, yeah, sorry. I understand. I have a lot of people to respond to so sometimes I might miss things just so it doesn't take me hours to reply. It definitely wasn't on purpose though so I'll try to keep that in mind going forward. :)

 

[shadowpass.4236]

@wasss.1208

I edited the OP with some things I'd like to see buffed with Holo!

[Tycura.1982]

@Ouk.5914 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"Chaith.8256" said:The main problem I saw here was that you and Mortralis were implying Holosmith stability always scaled with targets hit, no mention of a recent bug, and it wasn't in the game when you were currently claiming it was. I'm not sorry for objecting, what do you want?Like no, sit down.

I don't play this game every day. The last time I touched it (about a week ago), Corona Burst still applied stability per target hit. I want you to understand this instead of shoving it down my throat.

And no, don't tell me to "sit down." when you say stuff like this:

@"Chaith.8256" said:6-8 leaps/blasts in a single water field that lasts 3 seconds, wow, OP! My only question is how do you fit 6-8 seconds of casts & aftercasts into 3 seconds?

You've been the Engi main whose "spent more hours than anyone theorycrafting Engi" and somehow overlooked the fact that it's possible to blast more than 8 times in a single, short duration water field? Okay, sure. Maybe you weren't as thorough as you would've liked to believe, but I'm not here rubbing it in over and over again.

I literally said, "I'm not trying to dig at you" and lightly pointed out the fact that I knew something about engi you didn't. Not to mention you didn't realize it was patched out in November either. So you can chill with the snark. I'm not here attacking anyone. If you want to fact-check me, that's fine. But don't go around saying stuff to undermine me like, "Hurr but I thought you claimed to play Engi." just because my info is slightly outdated.

Look.

My response to you was quite civil considering the fact that you had an attitude right off the bat. It would be nice if you were considerate enough to show me the same respect. (If anything, considering the fact that we're both veteran PvPers, with thousands of hours on this game, who've both been playing since release. I hope you would trust me enough to

at least

give me the benefit of the doubt when I say something.)

my man said " it's possible to blast more than 8 times in a single, short duration water field" LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Turret destroy for healing, thumper, net, rocket, suppy crate, tool belt thumper, shield 4, and holographic shockwave. 8 blasts in a water. Ezclap

[wasss.1208]

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

I would like to see a grandmaster trait in Holo that makes entering PF a stunbreak, 2 stacks of stability for 3s on a 10 second ICD, and heat passively builds 15% slower. Also, I think giving Elixir U back it's stability duration to 4 seconds (6 seconds with Compounding Chemicals + Rune of Leadership) is perfectly fine as long as the stacks of stability from CB get moved to the initial hit rather than spread out over both pulses. Furthermore, I liked the idea of stab per target hit, but it should cap at 2 targets instead of 5 and grant 2 stacks of stab per hit. This will give Holos a more reliable way of gaining stability as timing the CB will now grant max stacks of stability (now 4 instead of 2) right off the bat while leaving room for enemy players to counterplay by interrupting/dodging the skill.

I've read someone writing, that the lack of stability actaully made the holo punishable, so giving back much might be overkill. They probably need some other kind of compensation, to be more fit to the "high risk, high reward" fantasy.

I'd like Lock On to be addressed and have it's on-hit proc removed and the cooldown increased to 30 seconds. To compensate for the loss of fury, I think lowing the minor trait, Excessive Energy's 10% damage bonus while under the effects of vigor to 5% but also giving the engi 2 seconds of fury (3s with Compounding Chemicals + Rune of Leadership) every time they gain vigor with a 5s ICD.

The first part: Removing the on-hit part would render this trait pretty bad, since you would have to hit your enemy in stealth with a cc to reveal them, which is pretty hard if you are running anything but holo*, making this change hurt other builds more, than tools holo.The second part: In exchange for nerfing this trait, you would nerf an another trait, despite claiming holo damage isn't the problem. Currently four traitlines can give engi high fury uptime: Alchemy with Hidden Flask, Tools with Lock On, Firearms with No Scope, and Explosives with Short Fuse. (I wouldn't blame anyone if they wouldn't count the last one as a viable contender.) So basicly you would give fury, which the engineer is already packed with, for two nerfed traits.

*(core engi probably only has the Overcharged Shot, scrapper has Thunderclap, while holo has Holographic Shockwave and Prime Light Beam, which are objectively easier to aim agains an invisible opponent)

I'd like to see rifle's Net Shot and Overcharged Shot both have 1/2s cast times with fast but clear animations, similar to a Ranger's Point Blank Shot. Also, removing the self-cc on Overcharged Shot would be a welcome change as it no longer requires the engi to stunbreak/have stab prior to using it.

This change has several problems:

• The skill itself is okay on core and scrapper (if they even decide to use rifle instead of hammer), since they doesn't have the follow up damage to make this skill broken, thus this change would hurt them more.
• The change you ask for would make this skill exactly like any other knockback ability.
• I still agree on giving it a better wind-up animation.
  Subjective part incoming: It would hurt (?) the class identity of the engineer, and would remove some of the uniqueness from the game. WoW did similar, where they somewhat streamlined what classes can do, basicly giving really similar skills to everyone. The playerbase obviously hated that.

For Toss Elixir S, the stealth could be reduced to 2 seconds (3s while traited with HGH) and also cleanse movement impairing conditions and/or grant 2 seconds of super speed to help balance it out.

The major problem with this change would be the same as the previous one:The skill is okay on non holo specs, since they can use it to reposition. But only that. Holosmith on the other hand can run away, deheat, heal up with heat therapy, and if they has Heal Turret, start blasting and leaping in that. Most non-holo builds can only get such bonuses from the healing field once or twice.If you want to hit this skill on holo exclusively, look at the Heat Therapy, and the holo's ability to blast and leap multiple times, while staying viable. (stuffing 8 finishers into a single build wouldn't really keep it viable.)

Anyways, I think engi needs buffs, core engi, scrapper, and holo ALL could do with some fixing up. For tools holo in particular, currently gameplay revolves a lot around setups from rifle into big damage + mobility + sustain from photon forge. In my opinion, this is a relatively forced playstyle since cooldowns on utilities are so long and engi has such a lack of stability outside of corona burst that it's necessary to constantly spam PF while in fights.

This pretty much sums up the same things I said.

I guess Healing Turret can remain 3/4s cast time but I still think it's difficult for a lot of classes to interrupt skills like HT, False Oasis, and Troll Unguent simply because their CCs have similar cast times as well.

Someone earlier said that hard CCs aren't meant to interrupt single skills, but to set up combos/bursts. I agree with that person: Dazes has low cast times, those are the ones you should look at, when you want to interrupt a single, important skill.

And to not only react to your post, but to actually add something:You should visit the engi subforum, and read about nerfs/changes people want. Those who main the profession ask for things like the increased heat cost on skills, and increased holo leap cooldown. These are meaningful changes, which were bought up several times, and it would help to reduce the spammy nature of the current holosmith.This one is a good read: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/15746/how-to-balance-every-single-thing-thats-bad-on-engineer-pvp/p1 with these changes, a lot of engineer utilities, and weapons could see viability.

[shadowpass.4236]

@wasss.1208

Moving the stability to the initial hit of Corona Burst lets people avoid giving the Holo stab by interrupting/dodging the ability. By giving Holo some stab duration back on Elixir U (4s base, 5s traited + rune, 6s with HGH), it's not as crazy as 10 seconds of stab every 32 seconds but it'll help cover the gaps and give the class a reliable source of stability if they need it for stomps or whatever.

Regarding the Lock On on-hit proc removal, it's a bit different than what you said. For example, if a d/p thief dropped black powder and was planning on using heartseeker to stealth, I would use Overcharged Shot to CC him so he couldn't stealth. The same thing would apply for a ranger dropping Smokescale F2. In this scenario, if he was using GS4 block into a Swoop, I would start casting my Prime Light Beam in advance so that the beam CCs the ranger after the evade from Swoop ends. So, there are some common scenarios where the on-CC proc would be pretty useful.

I didn't really suggest buffs to core engi builds specifically but kits could definitely use some changes as well to give the follow-up damage to rifle you were talking about.

I mean for core/scrapper, with my proposed change to Toss Elixir S, they'd still be able to Jump Shot or Rocket Boots away to create distance while in stealth before healing.

Thanks for the feedback as always! I'll check out that thread when I have time.