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8 years later still no build variety by traitline desing. We need more changes.

anduriell.6280

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Abyssisis.3971

Abyssisis.3971

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@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:@Xaylin.1860Sorry, don’t really have time to sit down and reply to everything you said, 12.5 hour work days suck. I would list every trait, but it would be along list, I did get one wrong for engineer, I may have gotten some of the others wrong, I won’t know till I actually make a list of which ones, but I also didn’t count those resistance granting ones for wars/revs, as stated.

I agree, quality of the traits does count, and some aren’t as good as others and that’s all well and good. I’m fine with that, it’s all part of the experience with fine tuning your build. What I’m not fine with is being forced to take a trait line to take a specific trait in order to have something to counter condi because the other other option is in NM and unless I’m using that trait line with that trait, then I’ve got to rely on Sigil, runes or skills, which again comes down to build options. Other classes have a bit more flexibility with their options to counter condi regardless of the quality of traits/skills.

No problem. That's why I said I'll not argue about the specific numbers per class. Hope you can get some free time after such a long work day. ?

The thing is: the trade off you're describing is hardly unique to Ranger. Taking your own numbers, it's exactly the same for Mesmer traitwise. And when looking of the quality of respective traits, I'd argue Thieves don't have it much better. So are we arguing about other classes getting more options as well?

Of course, everyone has their preferences how to pick specific capabilities for their class. You obviously prefer to have condition removal from traits rather from skills. Fair enough. So do I. But that's just a preference and not a balance issue. And I'm also not convinced that it is a significant diversity issue since there are options outside from traits. At least personally, I'm having a hard time seeing how condition removal is an issue for Rangers overall.

[Edits]: Sorry. On the phone ?

My 5 count for thieves include shadow embrace, pain response, guarded initiation, don’t stop and trickers when traited.

My count for Mesmer was 3, but I did missed one. So auspicious anguish, menders purity, sympathetic visage, blurred inscriptions when traited.

And yes, it still comes down to options. Those choices while not being as strong as wilderness knowledge are also not as heavily relied on to get cleanse on your toolbar when you are looking at the whole picture. On paper, Mesmer hands down Looks to have the better choices out of the 3 classes for skill bar condi counters, ranger has 1 more choice over the two, yet quality wise, isn’t as good as Mesmer and well is about as bad as thief choice for skill bar cleanse. But not having kept up with Mesmer or thief since starting on my rangers 4 years ago, I don’t know which choices for them are actually sort after for skill bar choices.

So when it comes to options. Playing power ranger, you aren’t going to pick healing spring, you aren’t going to pick spirit of nature unless you are picking for the revive, so you are left with deciding on SoR and/or lightning reflexes, both decent choices. Playing as condi, water spring is a solid option for a trapper build, SoR and LR both decent options and well nature spirit, can’t see it being picked for the condi cleanse but for the revival aspect. Taking WS/WK gives a ranger player 5 more options for skill bar choices for condi cleanse, and untraited WS skills are generally pretty good, quite possibly the best skill set for rangers and added WK on top of them gives you a lot of bang for your buck in both power and condi builds. So in the end you are left with 1 option, deciding on whether to take it and have plenty of on demand cleanse or not to take it and have fuck all cleanse, which again brings us back to being pigeonholed into taking it for condi counters.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

Preeeetty sure that's completely false. And still false in vast majority of cases even if we tone down your claim quite a bit.

You would think so.... yet...

Ele has 7 traits in 4 linesWarrior has 4 traits in 3 lines excluding warhorn trait that grants resistanceRanger has 3 in 2 different lines + 3 in Druid/ +2 in soulbeastNecro has 6 in 4 linesGuard has 4 in 3 linesThief has 5 in 3 linesEngineer has 7 in 3 linesMesmer has 3 in 2 linesRev has 4 in 3 lines excluding the traits that grant resistant

I didn’t go through the other elite specs, but I’m sure they have some more as well.

...and why exactly do you separate ranger from its especs but don't do the same for the other classes? Is it because your claim was wrong and you want to keep the appearance that you weren't or am I reading too much into this? :D

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Like with steal? 1200 range teleport that can deal damage, deal condi, heal, daze and stealth?? Did I forget anything? Rangers don’t have anything like that, and asking for 1 condi cleanse in another traitline other than WS isn’t going to overload the class.

Yup, aaaalmost (as in: not at all) -except these effects are granted by different traits and none of this has anything to do with what you've just quoted.

Those counts are core traits only, with the exception to druid/soulbeast which I’ve added as +counts besides the ranger count of 3. So Druid would have 6 and soulbeast would have 5. But like I said, I’m sure the other class elite specs would bring some more for their counts as well, I just didn’t have the time to get them this morning. I’m not making false claims, it’s all there for anyone to look at, load up your characters and check them out yourself. Doesn’t change the fact that rangers are pigeonholed into taking WS, specially wilderness knowledge to have condi counters whereas other classes have more options for it.

Interesting, just like @"Kodama.6453", I can't exactly make your numbers "work", so it still seems false to me, not even mentioning your overblown "2-3 times more" claim.

^edit: might be because you're not counting just full condi cleanses, but also include the "limited" ones, where it removes a set group of condis, like strictly movement imparing ones.

Except it does when you are talking about overloading a class. Steal can be way more overloaded than anything rangers can have. Haha And honestly do you really think buffing skirmishes line with a single condi cleanse would overload the line? I can’t see it personally.

Like @"Xaylin.1860" said, you seem to be missing the point and try to compare two different things. Seeing how apparently what I wrote was understood by some of other people, I wonder if you really don't understand what I wrote or maybe you're intentionally trying to stretch the comparison for the sake of making your argument.

And like Kodama who questioned me on the engineer choices, feel free to do it to whichever class you play and I’ll make a note of which ones I counted for you. And yes, I counted everything which counted condi in some way or another, with the note to resistance for war/rev as I CBF for that lot, which I believe is like 2 extra for each or something, either way I just didn’t make a note of the whole reduction ones in my original post, but counted them which included the one for ranger condi duration split. Yes, I should of made that note earlier lol

“Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D”

This one? Yea, responded to that with an equally silly statement about steal since you think 1 condi cleanse in a line that needs a little help will suddenly overload the class. ?

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@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

Preeeetty sure that's completely false. And still false in vast majority of cases even if we tone down your claim quite a bit.

You would think so.... yet...

Ele has 7 traits in 4 linesWarrior has 4 traits in 3 lines excluding warhorn trait that grants resistanceRanger has 3 in 2 different lines + 3 in Druid/ +2 in soulbeastNecro has 6 in 4 linesGuard has 4 in 3 linesThief has 5 in 3 linesEngineer has 7 in 3 linesMesmer has 3 in 2 linesRev has 4 in 3 lines excluding the traits that grant resistant

I didn’t go through the other elite specs, but I’m sure they have some more as well.

...and why exactly do you separate ranger from its especs but don't do the same for the other classes? Is it because your claim was wrong and you want to keep the appearance that you weren't or am I reading too much into this? :D

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Like with steal? 1200 range teleport that can deal damage, deal condi, heal, daze and stealth?? Did I forget anything? Rangers don’t have anything like that, and asking for 1 condi cleanse in another traitline other than WS isn’t going to overload the class.

Yup, aaaalmost (as in: not at all) -except these effects are granted by different traits and none of this has anything to do with what you've just quoted.

Those counts are core traits only, with the exception to druid/soulbeast which I’ve added as +counts besides the ranger count of 3. So Druid would have 6 and soulbeast would have 5. But like I said, I’m sure the other class elite specs would bring some more for their counts as well, I just didn’t have the time to get them this morning. I’m not making false claims, it’s all there for anyone to look at, load up your characters and check them out yourself. Doesn’t change the fact that rangers are pigeonholed into taking WS, specially wilderness knowledge to have condi counters whereas other classes have more options for it.

Interesting, just like @"Kodama.6453", I can't exactly make your numbers "work", so it still seems false to me, not even mentioning your overblown "2-3 times more" claim.

^edit: might be because you're not counting just full condi cleanses, but also include the "limited" ones, where it removes a set group of condis, like strictly movement imparing ones.

Except it does when you are talking about overloading a class. Steal can be way more overloaded than anything rangers can have. Haha And honestly do you really think buffing skirmishes line with a single condi cleanse would overload the line? I can’t see it personally.

Like @"Xaylin.1860" said, you seem to be missing the point and try to compare two different things. Seeing how apparently what I wrote was understood by some of other people, I wonder if you really don't understand what I wrote or maybe you're intentionally trying to stretch the comparison for the sake of making your argument.

And like Kodama who questioned me on the engineer choices, feel free to do it to whichever class you play and I’ll make a note of which ones I counted for you. And yes, I counted everything which counted condi in some way or another, with the note to resistance for war/rev as I CBF for that lot, which I believe is like 2 extra for each or something, either way I just didn’t make a note of the whole reduction ones in my original post, but counted them which included the one for ranger condi duration split. Yes, I should of made that note earlier lol

Yeah came to that conclusion in my post, hence the edit. I think it's interesting you compare full cleanses with partial cleanses as if they offer the same level of utility, but whatever. Your initial overblown claim was still false.

“Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D”

This one? Yea, responded to that with an equally silly statement about steal since you think 1 condi cleanse in a line that needs a little help will suddenly overload the class. ?

Then -still following your example I guess- add all the additional effect in steal to every line, why do people that want steal to do "x" need to pick specialisation that has the relevant trait? What if they want to pick something else but still want the skill to have the same function? :( Just throw it all into one trait, then add that same trait to every specialisation, so we have more "build diversity", right? Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example.You seriously don't understand what I wrote before and you think your "overloaded steal" is about the same issue? Picking a traitline is a choice, if you include the same thing in every traitline, you blur the differences between the specs.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

Preeeetty sure that's completely false. And still false in vast majority of cases even if we tone down your claim quite a bit.

You would think so.... yet...

Ele has 7 traits in 4 linesWarrior has 4 traits in 3 lines excluding warhorn trait that grants resistanceRanger has 3 in 2 different lines + 3 in Druid/ +2 in soulbeastNecro has 6 in 4 linesGuard has 4 in 3 linesThief has 5 in 3 linesEngineer has 7 in 3 linesMesmer has 3 in 2 linesRev has 4 in 3 lines excluding the traits that grant resistant

I didn’t go through the other elite specs, but I’m sure they have some more as well.

...and why exactly do you separate ranger from its especs but don't do the same for the other classes? Is it because your claim was wrong and you want to keep the appearance that you weren't or am I reading too much into this? :D

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Like with steal? 1200 range teleport that can deal damage, deal condi, heal, daze and stealth?? Did I forget anything? Rangers don’t have anything like that, and asking for 1 condi cleanse in another traitline other than WS isn’t going to overload the class.

Yup, aaaalmost (as in: not at all) -except these effects are granted by different traits and none of this has anything to do with what you've just quoted.

Those counts are core traits only, with the exception to druid/soulbeast which I’ve added as +counts besides the ranger count of 3. So Druid would have 6 and soulbeast would have 5. But like I said, I’m sure the other class elite specs would bring some more for their counts as well, I just didn’t have the time to get them this morning. I’m not making false claims, it’s all there for anyone to look at, load up your characters and check them out yourself. Doesn’t change the fact that rangers are pigeonholed into taking WS, specially wilderness knowledge to have condi counters whereas other classes have more options for it.

Interesting, just like @"Kodama.6453", I can't exactly make your numbers "work", so it still seems false to me, not even mentioning your overblown "2-3 times more" claim.

^edit: might be because you're not counting just full condi cleanses, but also include the "limited" ones, where it removes a set group of condis, like strictly movement imparing ones.

Except it does when you are talking about overloading a class. Steal can be way more overloaded than anything rangers can have. Haha And honestly do you really think buffing skirmishes line with a single condi cleanse would overload the line? I can’t see it personally.

Like @"Xaylin.1860" said, you seem to be missing the point and try to compare two different things. Seeing how apparently what I wrote was understood by some of other people, I wonder if you really don't understand what I wrote or maybe you're intentionally trying to stretch the comparison for the sake of making your argument.

And like Kodama who questioned me on the engineer choices, feel free to do it to whichever class you play and I’ll make a note of which ones I counted for you. And yes, I counted everything which counted condi in some way or another, with the note to resistance for war/rev as I CBF for that lot, which I believe is like 2 extra for each or something, either way I just didn’t make a note of the whole reduction ones in my original post, but counted them which included the one for ranger condi duration split. Yes, I should of made that note earlier lol

Yeah came to that conclusion in my post, hence the edit. I think it's interesting you compare full cleanses with partial cleanses as if they offer the same level of utility, but whatever. Your initial overblown claim was still false.

“Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D”

This one? Yea, responded to that with an equally silly statement about steal since you think 1 condi cleanse in a line that needs a little help will suddenly overload the class. ?

Then -still following your example I guess- add all the additional effect in steal to every line, why do people that want steal to do "x" need to pick specialisation that has the relevant trait? What if they want to pick something else but still want the skill to have the same function? :( Just throw it all into one trait, then add that same trait to every specialisation, so we have more "build diversity", right? Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example.You seriously don't understand what I wrote before and you think your "overloaded steal" is about the same issue? Picking a traitline is a choice, if you include the same thing in every traitline, you blur the differences between the specs.

Options are options regardless of quality which is why everything was counted. If you think I’m wrong for doing that, then it’s all good, you have your own opinions.

Out of curiosity, what class do you play? I seen you post a lot, but never actually taken note of what class you play lol

Asking for 1 thing isn’t asking for everything. You are over exaggerating this with “it will overload the class” when it won’t. It would most likely have little to no difference in the grand scheme of things in ranger builds/balance. But again, different opinions, and that’s fine.

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@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

Preeeetty sure that's completely false. And still false in vast majority of cases even if we tone down your claim quite a bit.

You would think so.... yet...

Ele has 7 traits in 4 linesWarrior has 4 traits in 3 lines excluding warhorn trait that grants resistanceRanger has 3 in 2 different lines + 3 in Druid/ +2 in soulbeastNecro has 6 in 4 linesGuard has 4 in 3 linesThief has 5 in 3 linesEngineer has 7 in 3 linesMesmer has 3 in 2 linesRev has 4 in 3 lines excluding the traits that grant resistant

I didn’t go through the other elite specs, but I’m sure they have some more as well.

...and why exactly do you separate ranger from its especs but don't do the same for the other classes? Is it because your claim was wrong and you want to keep the appearance that you weren't or am I reading too much into this? :D

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Like with steal? 1200 range teleport that can deal damage, deal condi, heal, daze and stealth?? Did I forget anything? Rangers don’t have anything like that, and asking for 1 condi cleanse in another traitline other than WS isn’t going to overload the class.

Yup, aaaalmost (as in: not at all) -except these effects are granted by different traits and none of this has anything to do with what you've just quoted.

Those counts are core traits only, with the exception to druid/soulbeast which I’ve added as +counts besides the ranger count of 3. So Druid would have 6 and soulbeast would have 5. But like I said, I’m sure the other class elite specs would bring some more for their counts as well, I just didn’t have the time to get them this morning. I’m not making false claims, it’s all there for anyone to look at, load up your characters and check them out yourself. Doesn’t change the fact that rangers are pigeonholed into taking WS, specially wilderness knowledge to have condi counters whereas other classes have more options for it.

Interesting, just like @"Kodama.6453", I can't exactly make your numbers "work", so it still seems false to me, not even mentioning your overblown "2-3 times more" claim.

^edit: might be because you're not counting just full condi cleanses, but also include the "limited" ones, where it removes a set group of condis, like strictly movement imparing ones.

Except it does when you are talking about overloading a class. Steal can be way more overloaded than anything rangers can have. Haha And honestly do you really think buffing skirmishes line with a single condi cleanse would overload the line? I can’t see it personally.

Like @"Xaylin.1860" said, you seem to be missing the point and try to compare two different things. Seeing how apparently what I wrote was understood by some of other people, I wonder if you really don't understand what I wrote or maybe you're intentionally trying to stretch the comparison for the sake of making your argument.

And like Kodama who questioned me on the engineer choices, feel free to do it to whichever class you play and I’ll make a note of which ones I counted for you. And yes, I counted everything which counted condi in some way or another, with the note to resistance for war/rev as I CBF for that lot, which I believe is like 2 extra for each or something, either way I just didn’t make a note of the whole reduction ones in my original post, but counted them which included the one for ranger condi duration split. Yes, I should of made that note earlier lol

Yeah came to that conclusion in my post, hence the edit. I think it's interesting you compare full cleanses with partial cleanses as if they offer the same level of utility, but whatever. Your initial overblown claim was still false.

“Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D”

This one? Yea, responded to that with an equally silly statement about steal since you think 1 condi cleanse in a line that needs a little help will suddenly overload the class. ?

Then -still following your example I guess- add all the additional effect in steal to every line, why do people that want steal to do "x" need to pick specialisation that has the relevant trait? What if they want to pick something else but still want the skill to have the same function? :( Just throw it all into one trait, then add that same trait to every specialisation, so we have more "build diversity", right? Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example.You seriously don't understand what I wrote before and you think your "overloaded steal" is about the same issue? Picking a traitline is a choice, if you include the same thing in every traitline, you blur the differences between the specs.

Options are options regardless of quality which is why everything was counted. If you think I’m wrong for doing that, then it’s all good, you have your own opinions.

Yup, that's just my point of view and with that said, I stay in my disagreement with how you list those "partial cleanses" as if they're equal with "regular" cleanses.

Out of curiosity, what class do you play? I seen you post a lot, but never actually taken note of what class you play lol

Easier to say what I don't enjoy playing, which is mesmer and engie. Guardian is kind of boring for me too.

Asking for 1 thing isn’t asking for everything. You are over exaggerating this with “it will overload the class” when it won’t. It would most likely have little to no difference in the grand scheme of things in ranger builds/balance. But again, different opinions, and that’s fine.

As I said in that post: "Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example."I've tried working with what you've came up with, strictly for the sake of comparison and maybe helping you understand what I said before :p

Yeah, a single thing won't necessarily suddenly overload the class, but then again we keep picking specific specializations and traits based on what we need to do in each gamemode or what role we want to fill. If our solution is "welp, just add the effect to enother line/trait in the name of build diversity", then we can keep saying the exact same thing about any trait choice we make. I want to have this trait, but I don't want to pick this spec, soooo lets move/copy it somewhere else too. In the end it still boils down to what anet wants the class and its specs to do tho.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

Preeeetty sure that's completely false. And still false in vast majority of cases even if we tone down your claim quite a bit.

You would think so.... yet...

Ele has 7 traits in 4 linesWarrior has 4 traits in 3 lines excluding warhorn trait that grants resistanceRanger has 3 in 2 different lines + 3 in Druid/ +2 in soulbeastNecro has 6 in 4 linesGuard has 4 in 3 linesThief has 5 in 3 linesEngineer has 7 in 3 linesMesmer has 3 in 2 linesRev has 4 in 3 lines excluding the traits that grant resistant

I didn’t go through the other elite specs, but I’m sure they have some more as well.

...and why exactly do you separate ranger from its especs but don't do the same for the other classes? Is it because your claim was wrong and you want to keep the appearance that you weren't or am I reading too much into this? :D

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Like with steal? 1200 range teleport that can deal damage, deal condi, heal, daze and stealth?? Did I forget anything? Rangers don’t have anything like that, and asking for 1 condi cleanse in another traitline other than WS isn’t going to overload the class.

Yup, aaaalmost (as in: not at all) -except these effects are granted by different traits and none of this has anything to do with what you've just quoted.

Those counts are core traits only, with the exception to druid/soulbeast which I’ve added as +counts besides the ranger count of 3. So Druid would have 6 and soulbeast would have 5. But like I said, I’m sure the other class elite specs would bring some more for their counts as well, I just didn’t have the time to get them this morning. I’m not making false claims, it’s all there for anyone to look at, load up your characters and check them out yourself. Doesn’t change the fact that rangers are pigeonholed into taking WS, specially wilderness knowledge to have condi counters whereas other classes have more options for it.

Interesting, just like @"Kodama.6453", I can't exactly make your numbers "work", so it still seems false to me, not even mentioning your overblown "2-3 times more" claim.

^edit: might be because you're not counting just full condi cleanses, but also include the "limited" ones, where it removes a set group of condis, like strictly movement imparing ones.

Except it does when you are talking about overloading a class. Steal can be way more overloaded than anything rangers can have. Haha And honestly do you really think buffing skirmishes line with a single condi cleanse would overload the line? I can’t see it personally.

Like @"Xaylin.1860" said, you seem to be missing the point and try to compare two different things. Seeing how apparently what I wrote was understood by some of other people, I wonder if you really don't understand what I wrote or maybe you're intentionally trying to stretch the comparison for the sake of making your argument.

And like Kodama who questioned me on the engineer choices, feel free to do it to whichever class you play and I’ll make a note of which ones I counted for you. And yes, I counted everything which counted condi in some way or another, with the note to resistance for war/rev as I CBF for that lot, which I believe is like 2 extra for each or something, either way I just didn’t make a note of the whole reduction ones in my original post, but counted them which included the one for ranger condi duration split. Yes, I should of made that note earlier lol

Yeah came to that conclusion in my post, hence the edit. I think it's interesting you compare full cleanses with partial cleanses as if they offer the same level of utility, but whatever. Your initial overblown claim was still false.

“Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D”

This one? Yea, responded to that with an equally silly statement about steal since you think 1 condi cleanse in a line that needs a little help will suddenly overload the class. ?

Then -still following your example I guess- add all the additional effect in steal to every line, why do people that want steal to do "x" need to pick specialisation that has the relevant trait? What if they want to pick something else but still want the skill to have the same function? :( Just throw it all into one trait, then add that same trait to every specialisation, so we have more "build diversity", right? Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example.You seriously don't understand what I wrote before and you think your "overloaded steal" is about the same issue? Picking a traitline is a choice, if you include the same thing in every traitline, you blur the differences between the specs.

Options are options regardless of quality which is why everything was counted. If you think I’m wrong for doing that, then it’s all good, you have your own opinions.

Yup, that's just my point of view and with that said, I stay in my disagreement with how you list those "partial cleanses" as if they're equal with "regular" cleanses.

Out of curiosity, what class do you play? I seen you post a lot, but never actually taken note of what class you play lol

Easier to say what I don't enjoy playing, which is mesmer and engie. Guardian is kind of boring for me too.

Asking for 1 thing isn’t asking for everything. You are over exaggerating this with “it will overload the class” when it won’t. It would most likely have little to no difference in the grand scheme of things in ranger builds/balance. But again, different opinions, and that’s fine.

As I said in that post: "
Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example.
"I've tried working with what you've came up with, strictly for the sake of comparison and maybe helping you understand what I said before :p

Yeah, a single thing won't necessarily suddenly overload the class, but then again we keep picking specific specializations and traits based on what we need to do in each gamemode or what role we want to fill. If our solution is "welp, just add the effect to enother line/trait in the name of build diversity", then we can keep saying the exact same thing about any trait choice we make. I want to have this trait, but I don't want to pick this spec, soooo lets move/copy it somewhere else too. In the end it still boils down to what anet wants the class and its specs to do tho.

That’s all well and good in theory, but in application it actually limits build diversity. This why the difference in quality of the trait comes into relevance that you dont want to include in the discussion. Obviously a trait for cleanse in an offensive line should never be the same strength as a cleanse in a line dedicated to heal/cleansing, and vice versa an offensive trait in a healing/cleansing line should never be as powerful as traits in offensive lines.

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@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

Preeeetty sure that's completely false. And still false in vast majority of cases even if we tone down your claim quite a bit.

You would think so.... yet...

Ele has 7 traits in 4 linesWarrior has 4 traits in 3 lines excluding warhorn trait that grants resistanceRanger has 3 in 2 different lines + 3 in Druid/ +2 in soulbeastNecro has 6 in 4 linesGuard has 4 in 3 linesThief has 5 in 3 linesEngineer has 7 in 3 linesMesmer has 3 in 2 linesRev has 4 in 3 lines excluding the traits that grant resistant

I didn’t go through the other elite specs, but I’m sure they have some more as well.

...and why exactly do you separate ranger from its especs but don't do the same for the other classes? Is it because your claim was wrong and you want to keep the appearance that you weren't or am I reading too much into this? :D

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Like with steal? 1200 range teleport that can deal damage, deal condi, heal, daze and stealth?? Did I forget anything? Rangers don’t have anything like that, and asking for 1 condi cleanse in another traitline other than WS isn’t going to overload the class.

Yup, aaaalmost (as in: not at all) -except these effects are granted by different traits and none of this has anything to do with what you've just quoted.

Those counts are core traits only, with the exception to druid/soulbeast which I’ve added as +counts besides the ranger count of 3. So Druid would have 6 and soulbeast would have 5. But like I said, I’m sure the other class elite specs would bring some more for their counts as well, I just didn’t have the time to get them this morning. I’m not making false claims, it’s all there for anyone to look at, load up your characters and check them out yourself. Doesn’t change the fact that rangers are pigeonholed into taking WS, specially wilderness knowledge to have condi counters whereas other classes have more options for it.

Interesting, just like @"Kodama.6453", I can't exactly make your numbers "work", so it still seems false to me, not even mentioning your overblown "2-3 times more" claim.

^edit: might be because you're not counting just full condi cleanses, but also include the "limited" ones, where it removes a set group of condis, like strictly movement imparing ones.

Except it does when you are talking about overloading a class. Steal can be way more overloaded than anything rangers can have. Haha And honestly do you really think buffing skirmishes line with a single condi cleanse would overload the line? I can’t see it personally.

Like @"Xaylin.1860" said, you seem to be missing the point and try to compare two different things. Seeing how apparently what I wrote was understood by some of other people, I wonder if you really don't understand what I wrote or maybe you're intentionally trying to stretch the comparison for the sake of making your argument.

And like Kodama who questioned me on the engineer choices, feel free to do it to whichever class you play and I’ll make a note of which ones I counted for you. And yes, I counted everything which counted condi in some way or another, with the note to resistance for war/rev as I CBF for that lot, which I believe is like 2 extra for each or something, either way I just didn’t make a note of the whole reduction ones in my original post, but counted them which included the one for ranger condi duration split. Yes, I should of made that note earlier lol

Yeah came to that conclusion in my post, hence the edit. I think it's interesting you compare full cleanses with partial cleanses as if they offer the same level of utility, but whatever. Your initial overblown claim was still false.

“Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D”

This one? Yea, responded to that with an equally silly statement about steal since you think 1 condi cleanse in a line that needs a little help will suddenly overload the class. ?

Then -still following your example I guess- add all the additional effect in steal to every line, why do people that want steal to do "x" need to pick specialisation that has the relevant trait? What if they want to pick something else but still want the skill to have the same function? :( Just throw it all into one trait, then add that same trait to every specialisation, so we have more "build diversity", right? Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example.You seriously don't understand what I wrote before and you think your "overloaded steal" is about the same issue? Picking a traitline is a choice, if you include the same thing in every traitline, you blur the differences between the specs.

Options are options regardless of quality which is why everything was counted. If you think I’m wrong for doing that, then it’s all good, you have your own opinions.

Yup, that's just my point of view and with that said, I stay in my disagreement with how you list those "partial cleanses" as if they're equal with "regular" cleanses.

Out of curiosity, what class do you play? I seen you post a lot, but never actually taken note of what class you play lol

Easier to say what I don't enjoy playing, which is mesmer and engie. Guardian is kind of boring for me too.

Asking for 1 thing isn’t asking for everything. You are over exaggerating this with “it will overload the class” when it won’t. It would most likely have little to no difference in the grand scheme of things in ranger builds/balance. But again, different opinions, and that’s fine.

As I said in that post: "
Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example.
"I've tried working with what you've came up with, strictly for the sake of comparison and maybe helping you understand what I said before :p

Yeah, a single thing won't necessarily suddenly overload the class, but then again we keep picking specific specializations and traits based on what we need to do in each gamemode or what role we want to fill. If our solution is "welp, just add the effect to enother line/trait in the name of build diversity", then we can keep saying the exact same thing about any trait choice we make. I want to have this trait, but I don't want to pick this spec, soooo lets move/copy it somewhere else too. In the end it still boils down to what anet wants the class and its specs to do tho.

That’s all well and good in theory, but in application it actually limits build diversity.
This why the difference in quality of the trait comes into relevance that you dont want to include in the discussion
. Obviously a trait for cleanse in an offensive line should never be the same strength as a cleanse in a line dedicated to heal/cleansing, and vice versa an offensive trait in a healing/cleansing line should never be as powerful as traits in offensive lines.

...I don't want to? I thought I literally told you I don't think it's fair to equate partial cleanses with regular ones, to which you answered "Options are options regardless of quality" (I still think you did it solely to stretch the sheer "number of traits" to somehow save your initial claim, which even with that is FAR overblown and simply false by the way, but obviously it's just how I see that situation).Now somehow I'm the one disregarding the quality of what the trait/cleanse does?

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

Preeeetty sure that's completely false. And still false in vast majority of cases even if we tone down your claim quite a bit.

You would think so.... yet...

Ele has 7 traits in 4 linesWarrior has 4 traits in 3 lines excluding warhorn trait that grants resistanceRanger has 3 in 2 different lines + 3 in Druid/ +2 in soulbeastNecro has 6 in 4 linesGuard has 4 in 3 linesThief has 5 in 3 linesEngineer has 7 in 3 linesMesmer has 3 in 2 linesRev has 4 in 3 lines excluding the traits that grant resistant

I didn’t go through the other elite specs, but I’m sure they have some more as well.

...and why exactly do you separate ranger from its especs but don't do the same for the other classes? Is it because your claim was wrong and you want to keep the appearance that you weren't or am I reading too much into this? :D

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Like with steal? 1200 range teleport that can deal damage, deal condi, heal, daze and stealth?? Did I forget anything? Rangers don’t have anything like that, and asking for 1 condi cleanse in another traitline other than WS isn’t going to overload the class.

Yup, aaaalmost (as in: not at all) -except these effects are granted by different traits and none of this has anything to do with what you've just quoted.

Those counts are core traits only, with the exception to druid/soulbeast which I’ve added as +counts besides the ranger count of 3. So Druid would have 6 and soulbeast would have 5. But like I said, I’m sure the other class elite specs would bring some more for their counts as well, I just didn’t have the time to get them this morning. I’m not making false claims, it’s all there for anyone to look at, load up your characters and check them out yourself. Doesn’t change the fact that rangers are pigeonholed into taking WS, specially wilderness knowledge to have condi counters whereas other classes have more options for it.

Interesting, just like @"Kodama.6453", I can't exactly make your numbers "work", so it still seems false to me, not even mentioning your overblown "2-3 times more" claim.

^edit: might be because you're not counting just full condi cleanses, but also include the "limited" ones, where it removes a set group of condis, like strictly movement imparing ones.

Except it does when you are talking about overloading a class. Steal can be way more overloaded than anything rangers can have. Haha And honestly do you really think buffing skirmishes line with a single condi cleanse would overload the line? I can’t see it personally.

Like @"Xaylin.1860" said, you seem to be missing the point and try to compare two different things. Seeing how apparently what I wrote was understood by some of other people, I wonder if you really don't understand what I wrote or maybe you're intentionally trying to stretch the comparison for the sake of making your argument.

And like Kodama who questioned me on the engineer choices, feel free to do it to whichever class you play and I’ll make a note of which ones I counted for you. And yes, I counted everything which counted condi in some way or another, with the note to resistance for war/rev as I CBF for that lot, which I believe is like 2 extra for each or something, either way I just didn’t make a note of the whole reduction ones in my original post, but counted them which included the one for ranger condi duration split. Yes, I should of made that note earlier lol

Yeah came to that conclusion in my post, hence the edit. I think it's interesting you compare full cleanses with partial cleanses as if they offer the same level of utility, but whatever. Your initial overblown claim was still false.

“Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D”

This one? Yea, responded to that with an equally silly statement about steal since you think 1 condi cleanse in a line that needs a little help will suddenly overload the class. ?

Then -still following your example I guess- add all the additional effect in steal to every line, why do people that want steal to do "x" need to pick specialisation that has the relevant trait? What if they want to pick something else but still want the skill to have the same function? :( Just throw it all into one trait, then add that same trait to every specialisation, so we have more "build diversity", right? Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example.You seriously don't understand what I wrote before and you think your "overloaded steal" is about the same issue? Picking a traitline is a choice, if you include the same thing in every traitline, you blur the differences between the specs.

Options are options regardless of quality which is why everything was counted. If you think I’m wrong for doing that, then it’s all good, you have your own opinions.

Yup, that's just my point of view and with that said, I stay in my disagreement with how you list those "partial cleanses" as if they're equal with "regular" cleanses.

Out of curiosity, what class do you play? I seen you post a lot, but never actually taken note of what class you play lol

Easier to say what I don't enjoy playing, which is mesmer and engie. Guardian is kind of boring for me too.

Asking for 1 thing isn’t asking for everything. You are over exaggerating this with “it will overload the class” when it won’t. It would most likely have little to no difference in the grand scheme of things in ranger builds/balance. But again, different opinions, and that’s fine.

As I said in that post: "
Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example.
"I've tried working with what you've came up with, strictly for the sake of comparison and maybe helping you understand what I said before :p

Yeah, a single thing won't necessarily suddenly overload the class, but then again we keep picking specific specializations and traits based on what we need to do in each gamemode or what role we want to fill. If our solution is "welp, just add the effect to enother line/trait in the name of build diversity", then we can keep saying the exact same thing about any trait choice we make. I want to have this trait, but I don't want to pick this spec, soooo lets move/copy it somewhere else too. In the end it still boils down to what anet wants the class and its specs to do tho.

That’s all well and good in theory, but in application it actually limits build diversity.
This why the difference in quality of the trait comes into relevance that you dont want to include in the discussion
. Obviously a trait for cleanse in an offensive line should never be the same strength as a cleanse in a line dedicated to heal/cleansing, and vice versa an offensive trait in a healing/cleansing line should never be as powerful as traits in offensive lines.

...I don't want to? I thought I literally told you I don't think it's fair to equate partial cleanses with regular ones, to which you answered "
Options are options regardless of quality
" (I still think you did it solely to stretch the sheer "number of traits" to somehow save
by the way, but obviously it's just how I see that situation).Now somehow I'm the one disregarding the quality of what the trait/cleanse does?

Regardless of whether you think it’s fair or not, they are actually part of the equation so need to be consider. Using thief as an example again, it’s similar to the variety of traits that provide a bit of healing, you get the same end result aka healing, but it’s done in different ways, off the top of my head you have heal on evade, heal on initiative use, heal on teleport, heal on venoms, heal on steal, heal on stealth. Some are better than but ultimately provide different build variations. All those reduction ones might not be as good as straight up cleanse, but they still count for something.

And again, feel free to take a look at them And get your own count instead of believing you are right for the sake of an argument without actually checking. I missed 2 in my count one for Mesmer and one on ranger and considered one on engineer when it shouldn’t have been consider, so I was out by 3. If you discover any more, I’m all ears.

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@Abyssisis.3971 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

Preeeetty sure that's completely false. And still false in vast majority of cases even if we tone down your claim quite a bit.

You would think so.... yet...

Ele has 7 traits in 4 linesWarrior has 4 traits in 3 lines excluding warhorn trait that grants resistanceRanger has 3 in 2 different lines + 3 in Druid/ +2 in soulbeastNecro has 6 in 4 linesGuard has 4 in 3 linesThief has 5 in 3 linesEngineer has 7 in 3 linesMesmer has 3 in 2 linesRev has 4 in 3 lines excluding the traits that grant resistant

I didn’t go through the other elite specs, but I’m sure they have some more as well.

...and why exactly do you separate ranger from its especs but don't do the same for the other classes? Is it because your claim was wrong and you want to keep the appearance that you weren't or am I reading too much into this? :D

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Like with steal? 1200 range teleport that can deal damage, deal condi, heal, daze and stealth?? Did I forget anything? Rangers don’t have anything like that, and asking for 1 condi cleanse in another traitline other than WS isn’t going to overload the class.

Yup, aaaalmost (as in: not at all) -except these effects are granted by different traits and none of this has anything to do with what you've just quoted.

Those counts are core traits only, with the exception to druid/soulbeast which I’ve added as +counts besides the ranger count of 3. So Druid would have 6 and soulbeast would have 5. But like I said, I’m sure the other class elite specs would bring some more for their counts as well, I just didn’t have the time to get them this morning. I’m not making false claims, it’s all there for anyone to look at, load up your characters and check them out yourself. Doesn’t change the fact that rangers are pigeonholed into taking WS, specially wilderness knowledge to have condi counters whereas other classes have more options for it.

Interesting, just like @"Kodama.6453", I can't exactly make your numbers "work", so it still seems false to me, not even mentioning your overblown "2-3 times more" claim.

^edit: might be because you're not counting just full condi cleanses, but also include the "limited" ones, where it removes a set group of condis, like strictly movement imparing ones.

Except it does when you are talking about overloading a class. Steal can be way more overloaded than anything rangers can have. Haha And honestly do you really think buffing skirmishes line with a single condi cleanse would overload the line? I can’t see it personally.

Like @"Xaylin.1860" said, you seem to be missing the point and try to compare two different things. Seeing how apparently what I wrote was understood by some of other people, I wonder if you really don't understand what I wrote or maybe you're intentionally trying to stretch the comparison for the sake of making your argument.

And like Kodama who questioned me on the engineer choices, feel free to do it to whichever class you play and I’ll make a note of which ones I counted for you. And yes, I counted everything which counted condi in some way or another, with the note to resistance for war/rev as I CBF for that lot, which I believe is like 2 extra for each or something, either way I just didn’t make a note of the whole reduction ones in my original post, but counted them which included the one for ranger condi duration split. Yes, I should of made that note earlier lol

Yeah came to that conclusion in my post, hence the edit. I think it's interesting you compare full cleanses with partial cleanses as if they offer the same level of utility, but whatever. Your initial overblown claim was still false.

“Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D”

This one? Yea, responded to that with an equally silly statement about steal since you think 1 condi cleanse in a line that needs a little help will suddenly overload the class. ?

Then -still following your example I guess- add all the additional effect in steal to every line, why do people that want steal to do "x" need to pick specialisation that has the relevant trait? What if they want to pick something else but still want the skill to have the same function? :( Just throw it all into one trait, then add that same trait to every specialisation, so we have more "build diversity", right? Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example.You seriously don't understand what I wrote before and you think your "overloaded steal" is about the same issue? Picking a traitline is a choice, if you include the same thing in every traitline, you blur the differences between the specs.

Options are options regardless of quality which is why everything was counted. If you think I’m wrong for doing that, then it’s all good, you have your own opinions.

Yup, that's just my point of view and with that said, I stay in my disagreement with how you list those "partial cleanses" as if they're equal with "regular" cleanses.

Out of curiosity, what class do you play? I seen you post a lot, but never actually taken note of what class you play lol

Easier to say what I don't enjoy playing, which is mesmer and engie. Guardian is kind of boring for me too.

Asking for 1 thing isn’t asking for everything. You are over exaggerating this with “it will overload the class” when it won’t. It would most likely have little to no difference in the grand scheme of things in ranger builds/balance. But again, different opinions, and that’s fine.

As I said in that post: "
Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example.
"I've tried working with what you've came up with, strictly for the sake of comparison and maybe helping you understand what I said before :p

Yeah, a single thing won't necessarily suddenly overload the class, but then again we keep picking specific specializations and traits based on what we need to do in each gamemode or what role we want to fill. If our solution is "welp, just add the effect to enother line/trait in the name of build diversity", then we can keep saying the exact same thing about any trait choice we make. I want to have this trait, but I don't want to pick this spec, soooo lets move/copy it somewhere else too. In the end it still boils down to what anet wants the class and its specs to do tho.

That’s all well and good in theory, but in application it actually limits build diversity.
This why the difference in quality of the trait comes into relevance that you dont want to include in the discussion
. Obviously a trait for cleanse in an offensive line should never be the same strength as a cleanse in a line dedicated to heal/cleansing, and vice versa an offensive trait in a healing/cleansing line should never be as powerful as traits in offensive lines.

...I don't want to? I thought I literally told you I don't think it's fair to equate partial cleanses with regular ones, to which you answered "
Options are options regardless of quality
" (I still think you did it solely to stretch the sheer "number of traits" to somehow save
by the way, but obviously it's just how I see that situation).Now somehow I'm the one disregarding the quality of what the trait/cleanse does?

Regardless of whether you think it’s fair or not, they are actually part of the equation so need to be consider. Using thief as an example again, it’s similar to the variety of traits that provide a bit of healing, you get the same end result aka healing, but it’s done in different ways, off the top of my head you have heal on evade, heal on initiative use, heal on teleport, heal on venoms, heal on steal, heal on stealth. Some are better than but ultimately provide different build variations. All those reduction ones might not be as good as straight up cleanse, but they still count for something.

Not "they might not be", but they're not as good as straight up cleanse and they're not really counted when considering cleansing traits.

And again, feel free to take a look at them And get your own count instead of believing you are right for the sake of an argument without actually checking. I missed 2 in my count one for Mesmer and one on ranger and considered one on engineer when it shouldn’t have been consider, so I was out by 3. If you discover any more, I’m all ears.

Why do you think I didn't check by myself? I did and as I said EVEN when you want to count those partial cleanses as full cleanses for some unknown reason, your initial claim is overblown and false. Not sure what you're arguing here right now, the fact is ranger isn't anything out of ordinary in regards of the number of cleansing traits.

And I guess you're straight up dropping being called out on the cleanse quality claim, eh? I don't know why I even bother tbh. :D

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@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines so they can have a bit more build variety and still have condi counters, rangers can’t tho, rangers are basically forced to take WS to have condi cleanse. If we don’t take WS or NM, we have a choice of 4 skills, healing trap, lightning reflexes, SoR or nature spirit or any condi removal. Not a lot of options for condi cleanse.IMO, Skirmishing could do with a condi clear on weapon swap instead of gaining fury or swiftness, a little buff to an underused traitline would go along way to build variety.

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:We have 3 core traits for cleanse, 2 in WS and 1 in NM, other classes are running around with 2-3 times more traits for condi cleanse, conversions or transfers in more traitlines

Preeeetty sure that's completely false. And still false in vast majority of cases even if we tone down your claim quite a bit.

You would think so.... yet...

Ele has 7 traits in 4 linesWarrior has 4 traits in 3 lines excluding warhorn trait that grants resistanceRanger has 3 in 2 different lines + 3 in Druid/ +2 in soulbeastNecro has 6 in 4 linesGuard has 4 in 3 linesThief has 5 in 3 linesEngineer has 7 in 3 linesMesmer has 3 in 2 linesRev has 4 in 3 lines excluding the traits that grant resistant

I didn’t go through the other elite specs, but I’m sure they have some more as well.

...and why exactly do you separate ranger from its especs but don't do the same for the other classes? Is it because your claim was wrong and you want to keep the appearance that you weren't or am I reading too much into this? :D

Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D

Like with steal? 1200 range teleport that can deal damage, deal condi, heal, daze and stealth?? Did I forget anything? Rangers don’t have anything like that, and asking for 1 condi cleanse in another traitline other than WS isn’t going to overload the class.

Yup, aaaalmost (as in: not at all) -except these effects are granted by different traits and none of this has anything to do with what you've just quoted.

Those counts are core traits only, with the exception to druid/soulbeast which I’ve added as +counts besides the ranger count of 3. So Druid would have 6 and soulbeast would have 5. But like I said, I’m sure the other class elite specs would bring some more for their counts as well, I just didn’t have the time to get them this morning. I’m not making false claims, it’s all there for anyone to look at, load up your characters and check them out yourself. Doesn’t change the fact that rangers are pigeonholed into taking WS, specially wilderness knowledge to have condi counters whereas other classes have more options for it.

Interesting, just like @"Kodama.6453", I can't exactly make your numbers "work", so it still seems false to me, not even mentioning your overblown "2-3 times more" claim.

^edit: might be because you're not counting just full condi cleanses, but also include the "limited" ones, where it removes a set group of condis, like strictly movement imparing ones.

Except it does when you are talking about overloading a class. Steal can be way more overloaded than anything rangers can have. Haha And honestly do you really think buffing skirmishes line with a single condi cleanse would overload the line? I can’t see it personally.

Like @"Xaylin.1860" said, you seem to be missing the point and try to compare two different things. Seeing how apparently what I wrote was understood by some of other people, I wonder if you really don't understand what I wrote or maybe you're intentionally trying to stretch the comparison for the sake of making your argument.

And like Kodama who questioned me on the engineer choices, feel free to do it to whichever class you play and I’ll make a note of which ones I counted for you. And yes, I counted everything which counted condi in some way or another, with the note to resistance for war/rev as I CBF for that lot, which I believe is like 2 extra for each or something, either way I just didn’t make a note of the whole reduction ones in my original post, but counted them which included the one for ranger condi duration split. Yes, I should of made that note earlier lol

Yeah came to that conclusion in my post, hence the edit. I think it's interesting you compare full cleanses with partial cleanses as if they offer the same level of utility, but whatever. Your initial overblown claim was still false.

“Yes -in the exact same way tacking copies of additional effects on every trait in every spec would "increase build variety"... by making them all do everything at the same time. Apparent solution to every problem: "just overload the kitten out of my class pls!" :D”

This one? Yea, responded to that with an equally silly statement about steal since you think 1 condi cleanse in a line that needs a little help will suddenly overload the class. ?

Then -still following your example I guess- add all the additional effect in steal to every line, why do people that want steal to do "x" need to pick specialisation that has the relevant trait? What if they want to pick something else but still want the skill to have the same function? :( Just throw it all into one trait, then add that same trait to every specialisation, so we have more "build diversity", right? Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example.You seriously don't understand what I wrote before and you think your "overloaded steal" is about the same issue? Picking a traitline is a choice, if you include the same thing in every traitline, you blur the differences between the specs.

Options are options regardless of quality which is why everything was counted. If you think I’m wrong for doing that, then it’s all good, you have your own opinions.

Yup, that's just my point of view and with that said, I stay in my disagreement with how you list those "partial cleanses" as if they're equal with "regular" cleanses.

Out of curiosity, what class do you play? I seen you post a lot, but never actually taken note of what class you play lol

Easier to say what I don't enjoy playing, which is mesmer and engie. Guardian is kind of boring for me too.

Asking for 1 thing isn’t asking for everything. You are over exaggerating this with “it will overload the class” when it won’t. It would most likely have little to no difference in the grand scheme of things in ranger builds/balance. But again, different opinions, and that’s fine.

As I said in that post: "
Overblown in comparison, sure, but it's just to follow your -not exactly relevant- example.
"I've tried working with what you've came up with, strictly for the sake of comparison and maybe helping you understand what I said before :p

Yeah, a single thing won't necessarily suddenly overload the class, but then again we keep picking specific specializations and traits based on what we need to do in each gamemode or what role we want to fill. If our solution is "welp, just add the effect to enother line/trait in the name of build diversity", then we can keep saying the exact same thing about any trait choice we make. I want to have this trait, but I don't want to pick this spec, soooo lets move/copy it somewhere else too. In the end it still boils down to what anet wants the class and its specs to do tho.

That’s all well and good in theory, but in application it actually limits build diversity.
This why the difference in quality of the trait comes into relevance that you dont want to include in the discussion
. Obviously a trait for cleanse in an offensive line should never be the same strength as a cleanse in a line dedicated to heal/cleansing, and vice versa an offensive trait in a healing/cleansing line should never be as powerful as traits in offensive lines.

...I don't want to? I thought I literally told you I don't think it's fair to equate partial cleanses with regular ones, to which you answered "
Options are options regardless of quality
" (I still think you did it solely to stretch the sheer "number of traits" to somehow save
by the way, but obviously it's just how I see that situation).Now somehow I'm the one disregarding the quality of what the trait/cleanse does?

Regardless of whether you think it’s fair or not, they are actually part of the equation so need to be consider. Using thief as an example again, it’s similar to the variety of traits that provide a bit of healing, you get the same end result aka healing, but it’s done in different ways, off the top of my head you have heal on evade, heal on initiative use, heal on teleport, heal on venoms, heal on steal, heal on stealth. Some are better than but ultimately provide different build variations. All those reduction ones might not be as good as straight up cleanse, but they still count for something.

Not "they might not be", but they're not as good as straight up cleanse and they're not really counted when considering cleansing traits.

And again, feel free to take a look at them And get your own count instead of believing you are right for the sake of an argument without actually checking. I missed 2 in my count one for Mesmer and one on ranger and considered one on engineer when it shouldn’t have been consider, so I was out by 3. If you discover any more, I’m all ears.

Why do you think I didn't check by myself? I did and as I said EVEN when you want to count those partial cleanses as full cleanses for some unknown reason, your initial claim is overblown and false. Not sure what you're arguing here right now, the fact is ranger isn't anything out of ordinary in regards of the number of cleansing traits.

And I guess you're straight up dropping being called out on the cleanse quality claim, eh? I don't know why I even bother tbh. :D

Reread the original post. Condi counters - cleanse, transfers, conversions and as I stated later on I counted reductions excluding resistance granting traits on war/ rev as I don’t play those classes to know how they work. Also stated I got 1 wrong on engineer, I missed one on Mesmer and kodama pointed out a 4th on ranger which I agreed with.

And the original point was that rangers are pigeonholed into WS/WK. ?‍♂️

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Kodama.6453

Kodama.6453

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@Abyssisis.3971 said:

Reread the original post. Condi counters - cleanse, transfers, conversions and as I stated later on I counted reductions excluding resistance granting traits on war/ rev as I don’t play those classes to know how they work. Also stated I got 1 wrong on engineer, I missed one on Mesmer and kodama pointed out a 4th on ranger which I agreed with.

And the original point was that rangers are pigeonholed into WS/WK. ?‍♂️

But isn't it the same for every other class? If that's how you see it, then engineer is pigeonholed into inventions/alchemy.Tools is meaningless, since the only condi counter in there is reactive lenses and no one is using that.

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Abyssisis.3971

Abyssisis.3971

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@Kodama.6453 said:

Reread the original post. Condi counters - cleanse, transfers, conversions and as I stated later on I counted reductions excluding resistance granting traits on war/ rev as I don’t play those classes to know how they work. Also stated I got 1 wrong on engineer, I missed one on Mesmer and kodama pointed out a 4th on ranger which I agreed with.

And the original point was that rangers are pigeonholed into WS/WK. ?‍
♂️

But isn't it the same for every other class? If that's how you see it, then engineer is pigeonholed into inventions/alchemy.Tools is meaningless, since the only condi counter in there is reactive lenses and no one is using that.

You can say that, but not to the same degree as ranger is. Engineer’s 6 trait related condi counters plus 7? skill bar condi counters gives it a little more flexibility.

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Xaylin.1860

Xaylin.1860

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@Abyssisis.3971 said:My 5 count for thieves include shadow embrace, pain response, guarded initiation, don’t stop and trickers when traited.

My count for Mesmer was 3, but I did missed one. So auspicious anguish, menders purity, sympathetic visage, blurred inscriptions when traited.

Mesmer is definitely missing Restorative Illusions. ;)

Thieves got objectively worse traits when it comes to fending off damaging conditions than Rangers. I won't entertain arguing about that because I believe that it should be obvious regardless of the sole number of condition defense related traits available. Now, when it comes to Mesmer: If a (core) Mesmer wants competitive condition defense from traits one will always have to pick Inspiration no matter what. Due to its ICD and rare access to Distortion Auspicious Anguish will never be enough to keep you safe from conditions unless you also pick Blurred Inscriptions. Meaning, you picked Inspiration anyway. You now might argue that you could pick different combinations of Sympathetic Visage and/or Restorative Illusions. But please, explain my how this situation is significantly different from Ranger with WK with/without Shared Anguish vs. SoR?

Not discussing Menders Purity since it is a Minor that won't be powerful enough on it's own.

And yes, it still comes down to options. Those choices while not being as strong as wilderness knowledge are also not as heavily relied on to get cleanse on your toolbar when you are looking at the whole picture. On paper, Mesmer hands down Looks to have the better choices out of the 3 classes for skill bar condi counters, ranger has 1 more choice over the two, yet quality wise, isn’t as good as Mesmer and well is about as bad as thief choice for skill bar cleanse. But not having kept up with Mesmer or thief since starting on my rangers 4 years ago, I don’t know which choices for them are actually sort after for skill bar choices.

To be honest, I'm not 100% sure wether I got your point about skill bar condi counters right... I hope, I did... :s

Just from a mathematic standpoint the condition removal portion per second, assuming a self-use (not group), Signet of Renewal is stronger than both, Arcany Thievery and Nullfield. Mantra of Resolve is a bit tricky and I'm too tired to do the math (recharges/recasts). If you solely look at the count recharge, it's also worse than Signet of Renewal. Of course, this view is a bit skewed because you'd probably never have 13 conditions at once. But you might as well underheal on Mesmers considering that most untraited options heal 3 conditions or less. Additionally, I also believe that having Heal skills like Healing Spring adds significantly more variety too builds than yet another Utility skill to pick from. Core Mesmer got neither untraited Healing skills against conditions nor Elite skills. Those, that should not be named (Chrono/Mirage) do have said options, though.

Not saying that this comparison makes sense ingame considering it neglects all other effects those skills might have. But I fail to see why you believe Mesmer options are better than Rangers? I'm also a bit confused how this aids your point of view that Rangers need more options when it comes to traits.

So when it comes to options. Playing power ranger, you aren’t going to pick healing spring, you aren’t going to pick spirit of nature unless you are picking for the revive, so you are left with deciding on SoR and/or lightning reflexes, both decent choices. Playing as condi, water spring is a solid option for a trapper build, SoR and LR both decent options and well nature spirit, can’t see it being picked for the condi cleanse but for the revival aspect. Taking WS/WK gives a ranger player 5 more options for skill bar choices for condi cleanse, and untraited WS skills are generally pretty good, quite possibly the best skill set for rangers and added WK on top of them gives you a lot of bang for your buck in both power and condi builds. So in the end you are left with 1 option, deciding on whether to take it and have plenty of on demand cleanse or not to take it and have kitten all cleanse, which again brings us back to being pigeonholed into taking it for condi counters.

Healing Spring is as efficient in power builds as it is in condition builds. You might not like the playstyle, but that's hardly an objective statement.

Basically, you're arguing that Rangers either have to take SoR or WK + some Survival skills. How is this any different from the Mesmer scenario I described above? It is not, really. The outcome is exactly the same even though Mesmers might have a slightly larger variety on the Utility bar, while Rangers got the advantage when it comes to Healing skills.

I mean... I can understand why one would like more options when it comes to traits... or Utility skills. Whatever. Maybe discussing this topic would be easier if there were specific suggestions that could be analyzed. However, even if we came to an agreement, that core Ranger had the absolutely worst condition defense ever, when looking at overall game balance it's quite difficult to justify additional traits when there are things like Celestial Avatar and Verdant Etching on Druid and Bear Stance on Soulbeast. And, while clunky, we haven't even talked about condition removal through pets. It's a much harder sell than you make it look like.

@Abyssisis.3971 said:

Reread the original post. Condi counters - cleanse, transfers, conversions and as I stated later on I counted reductions excluding resistance granting traits on war/ rev as I don’t play those classes to know how they work. Also stated I got 1 wrong on engineer, I missed one on Mesmer and kodama pointed out a 4th on ranger which I agreed with.

And the original point was that rangers are pigeonholed into WS/WK. ?‍
♂️

But isn't it the same for every other class? If that's how you see it, then engineer is pigeonholed into inventions/alchemy.Tools is meaningless, since the only condi counter in there is reactive lenses and no one is using that.

You can say that, but not to the same degree as ranger is. Engineer’s 6 trait related condi counters plus 7? skill bar condi counters gives it a little more flexibility.

You're right that core Engineer has more flexibility than core Ranger - even though your numbers are heavily bloated here. Purity of Purpose is in no way condition defense. It's an after-effect. Plus, two trais are Minors and therefore come by default, not really choice. Still, while there might be more flexibility on Engineer Kodama is also right: It comes down to Alchemy (Elixir) vs. Inventions (Protection). The thing is: This also holds true for Holosmiths and Scrappers unless we're talking PvE endgame DPS builds. In case of Rangers, it doesn't hold true for neither Soulbeast nor Druid. You don't have to pick WK or SoR on those Elites.

Which leads me back to a question I've asked before: What is the point of discussing specific aspects of core classes in a vacuum?

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anduriell.6280

anduriell.6280

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The pain point i'm trying to point out is

  • Ranger has been playing the same general build (WS/BM) from the rework of the traitlines around 2013. Druid didn't change anything about that and Soulbeast either. Even when some specific builds pop up from time to time (like pewpew sicem SB or Boonbeast) those are nerfed quickly which ends up pushing the ranger back to WS/BM builds.

Although i recognize the lack of build variety in other classes and i agree it needs to have some look into, it is not the same issue. Yes you can play other builds in wvw or PvP but then you definitely play to lose.

And that's my main complain. New Specializations have done nothing to change that and as result i've been playing the same ranger build from the very beginning. The only significant changes Ranger has suffered have been to nerf traits and skills and limit even more the build variety.
You are entitled to dislike the class because it's core mechanics (the pewpew and pet) but that doesn't mean i am wrong about the fact you are always fighting the same boring build every time you encounter a ranger (it doesn't matter if "melee" or pewpew, they have the same trait lines, skills and durability runes) .

It is so exhaustingly boring to play with and against.

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CroTiger.7819

CroTiger.7819

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@"anduriell.6280" said:The pain point i'm trying to point out is

  • Ranger has been playing the same general build (WS/BM) from the rework of the traitlines around 2013. Druid didn't change anything about that and Soulbeast either. Even when some specific builds pop up from time to time (like pewpew sicem SB or Boonbeast) those are nerfed quickly which ends up pushing the ranger back to WS/BM builds.

Although i recognize the lack of build variety in other classes and i agree it needs to have some look into, it is not the same issue. Yes you can play other builds in wvw or PvP but then you definitely play to lose.

And that's my main complain. New Specializations have done nothing to change that and as result i've been playing the same ranger build from the very beginning. The only significant changes Ranger has suffered have been to nerf traits and skills and limit even more the build variety.

You are entitled to dislike the class because it's core mechanics (the pewpew and pet) but that doesn't mean i am wrong about the fact you are always fighting the same boring build every time you encounter a ranger (it doesn't matter if "melee" or pewpew, they have the same trait lines, skills and durability runes) .

It is so exhaustingly boring to play with and against.

To be worst most of ranger builds use same weapons aswell because other than lb/gs you get almost no utility from other weapons. Traits like light on your feet definitly shows how bad utility ranger is given and encouraged to ever took weapons like shortbow. I think stealth would fit better on shortbow because of need to flank but still lb is much more dmg and utility than shortbow to ever pick it, except if you are running condi builds which rather than predators cunning have rly bad trait synergy in other hands. I think biggest problem is ranger utility and selfish design of class.

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