Pretty bad fury uptime as Berserker

[cryorion.9532]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:@Lan Deathrider.5910The point of this thread is to point out lack of fury uptime as berserker, unless you heavily build for it (going Arms, taking certain Skills, etc), compared to core warrior and spellbreaker. As core and spellbreaker, you can sustain fury with greatsword easily, by just using the warrior's main mechanics, burst skills. Fury was taken away from berserker mechanics (gaining Fury on entering Berserk and missing Arcing Slice burst).Having fury on berserker's mechanics and being able to upkeep fury similar way as core/spellbreaker is what I hope for. You can go Arms anytime, even with core/spellbreaker, for extra dps (from vulnerability and signet mastery), but wanting core/spellbreaker-like fury uptime only, shouldn't limit berserker to Arms traitline.It is one boon, that is pretty much standard for warrior class.

That's, like, directly connected to the berk mechanic/playstyle. If you want core/SB fury upkeep... pick core/SB spec?

What playstyle? That you are in berserk mode, spamming burst skills? How is that different to core/spellbreaker? The only difference is that berserker is time gated spec unlike core/spb. If berserker wants to deal real damage, they can do so for ~ 15/20 seconds (not counting alacrity/prolonging with rage skills) with 15 second breaks (not counting alacrity). But this is not the point of this thread.

The point is that before rework, berserker had much better access to fury without having to compromise builds/gear. Now suddenly with the rework, one of the most important and defining boons (together with might and swiftness) warrior has access to, was essentially removed from the main mechanics (bursts and berserk mode).

[Obtena.7952]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:@Lan Deathrider.5910The point of this thread is to point out lack of fury uptime as berserker, unless you heavily build for it (going Arms, taking certain Skills, etc), compared to core warrior and spellbreaker. As core and spellbreaker, you can sustain fury with greatsword easily, by just using the warrior's main mechanics, burst skills. Fury was taken away from berserker mechanics (gaining Fury on entering Berserk and missing Arcing Slice burst).Having fury on berserker's mechanics and being able to upkeep fury similar way as core/spellbreaker is what I hope for. You can go Arms anytime, even with core/spellbreaker, for extra dps (from vulnerability and signet mastery), but wanting core/spellbreaker-like fury uptime only, shouldn't limit berserker to Arms traitline.It is one boon, that is pretty much standard for warrior class.

That's, like, directly connected to the berk mechanic/playstyle. If you want core/SB fury upkeep... pick core/SB spec?

What playstyle?

The reference to this 'playstyle' reasoning is vague and intentionally so ... it's hard to argue against the elusive nature of it. What I do know ... Playstyle variation isn't a justification for the current state of Berserker so any attempt to use it shows a lack of understanding of the issues.

As for the topic ... I'm not particularly fussed by the lack of Fury. It probably is just another trade off. Even if we had more Fury up time, Berserker wouldn't change much in how it works; I don't think throwing more damage at it fixes the problems it has.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:@"Lan Deathrider.5910"The point of this thread is to point out lack of fury uptime as berserker, unless you heavily build for it (going Arms, taking certain Skills, etc), compared to core warrior and spellbreaker. As core and spellbreaker, you can sustain fury with greatsword easily, by just using the warrior's main mechanics, burst skills. Fury was taken away from berserker mechanics (gaining Fury on entering Berserk and missing Arcing Slice burst).Having fury on berserker's mechanics and being able to upkeep fury similar way as core/spellbreaker is what I hope for. You can go Arms anytime, even with core/spellbreaker, for extra dps (from vulnerability and signet mastery), but wanting core/spellbreaker-like fury uptime only, shouldn't limit berserker to Arms traitline.It is one boon, that is pretty much standard for warrior class.

That's, like, directly connected to the berk mechanic/playstyle. If you want core/SB fury upkeep... pick core/SB spec?

What playstyle?

The reference to this 'playstyle' reasoning is vague and intentionally so ... it's hard to argue against the elusive nature of it. What I do know ... Playstyle variation isn't a justification for the current state of Berserker so any attempt to use it shows a lack of understanding of the issues.

As for the topic ... I'm not particularly fussed by the lack of Fury. It probably is just another trade off. Even if we had more Fury up time, Berserker wouldn't change much in how it works; I don't think throwing more damage at it fixes the problems it has.

haha "vague", sure. I kept writing about it, you kept reading about it, you didn't have much to say other than claiming I "keep talking about performance and not design", which is a straight up lie. So is what you just said and you probably know it. There's nothing "elusive" about what I kept writing, you just decide to turn your back at it and pretend it never existed, it's not really my problem, it's a choice you made.

And while we're at deciding what is and what isn't a valid arugment: playstyle variation is a perfect justification for the current state of Berserker, so any attempt to claim otherwise shows lack of understanding of this rework and spec availability in general.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@cryorion.9532 said:@"Lan Deathrider.5910"The point of this thread is to point out lack of fury uptime as berserker, unless you heavily build for it (going Arms, taking certain Skills, etc), compared to core warrior and spellbreaker. As core and spellbreaker, you can sustain fury with greatsword easily, by just using the warrior's main mechanics, burst skills. Fury was taken away from berserker mechanics (gaining Fury on entering Berserk and missing Arcing Slice burst).Having fury on berserker's mechanics and being able to upkeep fury similar way as core/spellbreaker is what I hope for. You can go Arms anytime, even with core/spellbreaker, for extra dps (from vulnerability and signet mastery), but wanting core/spellbreaker-like fury uptime only, shouldn't limit berserker to Arms traitline.It is one boon, that is pretty much standard for warrior class.

Axe mainhand or "For Great Justice!" should cover your fury. Honestly Warrior craps out fury almost as much as it barfs out might. Arcing Slice has never been my main source of fury. If you hate Headbutt then Rage Signet is a valid option for fury uptime as well.

[cryorion.9532]

@Obtena.7952 said:As for the topic ... I'm not particularly fussed by the lack of Fury. It probably is just another trade off. Even if we had more Fury up time, Berserker wouldn't change much in how it works; I don't think throwing more damage at it fixes the problems it has.

Trade-off for what? It does make no sense to remove fury for spec that is focused of damage. And especially BERSERKER spec... you know, rage, angry, furious, smash everything themed spec... with bad fury uptime on its mechanics?Why is berserker not self sufficient on fury generation, just like core warrior and spellbreaker? I thought the trade-off is supposed to be very bursty and dangerous in Berserk and useless outside of it. If it is supposed to be damage oriented spec, so why removing fury from berserker's main mechanics? There seems to be too many trade-offs for Berserk's damage burst that in PvE is not even among the highest 5 dps specs, and in PvP/WvW has only one very bursty skill that will be nerfed anyway?

@Sobx.1758 said:And while we're at deciding what is and what isn't a valid arugment: playstyle variation is a perfect justification for the current state of Berserker, so any attempt to claim otherwise shows lack of understanding of this rework and spec availability in general.

Please discuss playstyle variation elsewhere, bad fury uptime has nothing to do with playstyle. The playstyle is just being in Berserk mode for 15-20+ seconds and then wait 15 seconds inbetween Berserk modes. Or maybe... you know... you are wrong and the rework just sucks?

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:Axe mainhand or "For Great Justice!" should cover your fury. Honestly Warrior craps out fury almost as much as it barfs out might. Arcing Slice has never been my main source of fury. If you hate Headbutt then Rage Signet is a valid option for fury uptime as well.

I don't hate Head Butt, it's the other way around, I love it. But why do I have to gimp builds by taking non-berserker skills (or even Arms traitline) to cover berserker issue? I mean, why is berserker not self sufficient on fury generation, just like core warrior and spellbreaker? I thought the trade-off is supposed to be very bursty and dangerous in Berserk and useless outside of it. It does not make any sense to remove fury from spec that is supposed to be outputting high damage when in Berserk.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:Axe mainhand or "For Great Justice!" should cover your fury. Honestly Warrior craps out fury almost as much as it barfs out might. Arcing Slice has never been my main source of fury. If you hate Headbutt then Rage Signet is a valid option for fury uptime as well.

I don't hate Head Butt, it's the other way around, I love it. But why do I have to kitten builds by taking non-berserker skills (or even Arms traitline) to cover berserker issue? I mean, why is berserker not self sufficient on fury generation, just like core warrior and spellbreaker? I thought the trade-off is supposed to be very bursty and dangerous in Berserk and useless outside of it. It does not make any sense to remove fury from spec that is supposed to be outputting high damage when in Berserk.

"For Great Justice!" should make you self sufficient enough with fury on any spec. Since you are so focused on outputting high damage, then Arms would be better to spec than Discipline, so when you go into Berserk Mode you _will _have 5 seconds of fury. If that is not enough then Opportunist provides enough fury if you take that instead of Signet Mastery.

Anet probably suspected that Berserker players would go full YOLO and trait Arms to maximize damage and felt that the extra fury was no longer needed on Berserk Mode.

[cryorion.9532]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Axe mainhand or "For Great Justice!" should cover your fury. Honestly Warrior craps out fury almost as much as it barfs out might. Arcing Slice has never been my main source of fury. If you hate Headbutt then Rage Signet is a valid option for fury uptime as well.

I don't hate Head Butt, it's the other way around, I love it. But why do I have to kitten builds by taking non-berserker skills (or even Arms traitline) to cover berserker issue? I mean, why is berserker not self sufficient on fury generation, just like core warrior and spellbreaker? I thought the trade-off is supposed to be very bursty and dangerous in Berserk and useless outside of it. It does not make any sense to remove fury from spec that is supposed to be outputting high damage when in Berserk.

"For Great Justice!" should make you self sufficient enough with fury on any spec. Since you are so focused on outputting high damage, then Arms would be better to spec than Discipline, so when you go into Berserk Mode you _will _have 5 seconds of fury. If that is not enough then Opportunist provides enough fury if you take that instead of Signet Mastery.

Anet probably suspected that Berserker players would go full YOLO and trait Arms to maximize damage and felt that the extra fury was no longer needed on Berserk Mode.

Lack of fury is very noticable and hurts discipline builds. Yes, I am using For Great Justice instead of signet of fury/might for now, but still hope to see better fury uptime in the future, directly on berserker's mechanics from just using Berserk and bursts. If Arms build wasn't so impractical, I would be using it for sure, but Discipline provides things that I find invaluable. Going max possible dps is not always the best solution. And there is no reason why berserker should be limited by fury and be forced to take certain skills/traits, compared to core/spellbreaker. That has nothing to do with the playstyle and it rather contradicts the theme of berserker.

Simple solution is to add fury on Arc Divider, Head Butt and/or Berserk mode (as it was before).All I care is the best ratio between damage and practicality (condition cleanse, movement speed, etc). That is why Discipline builds are well rounded and work best in solo situations (most of the time).

[Obtena.7952]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:As for the topic ... I'm not particularly fussed by the lack of Fury. It probably is just another trade off. Even if we had more Fury up time, Berserker wouldn't change much in how it works; I don't think throwing more damage at it fixes the problems it has.

Trade-off for what? It does make no sense to remove fury for spec that is focused of damage.

Just guessing here but Anet probably thinks the 300 power/condi damage makes up for it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"cryorion.9532" said:

Simple solution is to add fury on Arc Divider, Head Butt and/or Berserk mode (as it was before).All I care is the best ratio between damage and practicality (condition cleanse, movement speed, etc). That is why Discipline builds are well rounded and work best in solo situations (most of the time).

Well Wild Blow grants fury now as well (8s/20s). While Discipline is a one-stop shop for a lot of nice things, those things are also better from other sources, with the exception of Fast Hands. Runes of Speed give you better movement and "Shake it Off!" is better condi cleanse. In a way I think this was Anet's sleight of hand method to push people towards using Arms more than before on power builds.

You have an abundance of sources of fury on as a warrior regardless of spec. There is also nothing stopping you from running stats with Precision as a major attribute instead of Power, precision food, precision runes, or some combination of those to get a better crit chance.