Berserk canceling

[rdigeri.7935]

Well, the thing is, i don't see which one's supposed to prove that, so you might as well elegantly say it again.. Unless you don't know either?

[Sobx.1758]

Well then, better keep reading, because I sure won't copy-paste for you something that I already wrote in the same 1-page-long thread, but you decided to ignore. :)

[rdigeri.7935]

@rdigeri.7935 said:Unless you don't know either?

Understood.

I think i answered everything, prove me wrong.

[Sobx.1758]

Sure, just go reread what I already wrrote and you failed to understand. :)

[rdigeri.7935]

Wow hahaha. Fine i won't bother with you then

[Sobx.1758]

@"rdigeri.7935" said:Wow hahaha. Fine i won't bother with you then

That's what you said 10 posts ago (didn't really count :< ), but then ended up with "guess I didn't catch that". :D

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The level of toxic is over 9000. Cool your jets people.

Lets recenter the discussion shall we?

The warrior community pretty much agrees to a few things:

Stat swap in Berserk Mode is an okay tradeofff and thematic for the spec :+1:Loss of core F1 Bursts were a heave tradeoff given the inability to manage Berserk Mode :-1:Rage skills extending Berserk Mode are okay but most feel that this is a lack luster way of managing Berserk Mode.

What people are proposing:

A F2 that exits Berserk Mode with an attack, like entering does, and puts Berserk Mode on a reduced CD relative to the time remaining.Three bars of adrenaline will still be required to enter Berserk Mode. Core F1s are still lost. This gives better management over the stat inversion.

Another option, and this is the LEAST esoteric option:Because Berserk Mode is itself a Burst skill it should have the same CD as other burst skills, 8s.Three bars of adrenaline will still be required, Core F1 bursts are still lost. the 8s CD (6.5 if traited) brings it in line with other Burst skills.

I personally still think the stat inversion of Berserk Mode, and lost of Core F1 bursts is more than enough of a tradeoff. This last option would lesson the time out of Berserk Mode, where all of the damage of a Berserker is loaded. In WvW and PvP a foe still gets a 6-8 second breather where they can't get bursted, which is plenty of time for several classes to reset a fight in their favor against a Berserker.

[rdigeri.7935]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:The level of toxic is over 9000. Cool your jets people.

Lets recenter the discussion shall we?

The warrior community pretty much agrees to a few things:

Stat swap in Berserk Mode is an okay tradeofff and thematic for the spec :+1:Loss of core F1 Bursts were a heave tradeoff given the inability to manage Berserk Mode :-1:Rage skills extending Berserk Mode are okay but most feel that this is a lack luster way of managing Berserk Mode.

What people are proposing:

A F2 that exits Berserk Mode with an attack, like entering does, and puts Berserk Mode on a reduced CD relative to the time remaining.Three bars of adrenaline will still be required to enter Berserk Mode. Core F1s are still lost. This gives better management over the stat inversion.

Another option, and this is the LEAST esoteric option:Because Berserk Mode is itself a Burst skill it should have the same CD as other burst skills, 8s.Three bars of adrenaline will still be required, Core F1 bursts are still lost. the 8s CD (6.5 if traited) brings it in line with other Burst skills.

I personally still think the stat inversion of Berserk Mode, and lost of Core F1 bursts is more than enough of a tradeoff. This last option would lesson the time out of Berserk Mode, where all of the damage of a Berserker is loaded. In WvW and PvP a foe still gets a 6-8 second breather where they can't get bursted, which is plenty of time for several classes to reset a fight in their favor against a Berserker.

You're right, thank you.The second option's quite simple, i like it as well, although then base duration of Berserk should probably be reduced too. (that vulnerable window might still pop in with the worst timing, but with that duration it'd be fine)

Another solution could be that this f2 mechanic is given to one of the traits, then it's an extra tradeoff, but i'm not a fan of this.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't see what problem you are trying to fix here. OP says the main problem with berserker is that you can't control when berserker ends? I don't think that's a problem at all. I never want berserker to end. Why would I want it to end ... unless it's a contrived method to justify attaching some other effect you actually want to it. Seems like an idea looking for a reason to happen.

I mean, the idea is OK .. but i don't see any reason to do it. I certainly never thought the biggest issue with berserker is that I can't control when I exit it.

[rdigeri.7935]

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't see what problem you are trying to fix here. OP says the main problem with berserker is that you can't control when berserker ends? I don't think that's a problem at all. I never want berserker to end. Why would I want it to end ... unless it's a contrived method to justify attaching some other effect you actually want to it. Seems like an idea looking for a reason to happen.

You want Berserk to end so that the rest of its duration is not wasted if you are not in the situation to burst (be it 4 seconds or 10 seconds), and that remaining duration's time can instead be used for the cooldown.

Even in open world, let's say you defeat some mobs quickly in berserk, and you see another group in the distance. By the time you get there, Berserk runs out and you gotta wait another 15 seconds to use your bursts.

With canceling, you are given the ability to control your Berserk, not be useless and not be completely overshadowed by spellbreaker.

I mean, the idea is OK .. but i don't see any reason to do it. I certainly never thought the biggest issue with berserker is that I can't control when I exit it.

What do you think the biggest issue is with berserker?

[Obtena.7952]

But it's not wasted if I'm not in a situation where I don't burst ... there are other benefits to berserker that have nothing to do with using primal bursts.

The OW thing is much more complicated because in that situation, you have adrenaline gain to content with as well as berserker mode CD and duration. It's really not a big problem when you consider that fighting larger groups of mobs means you are in continuous combat and you don't get many of these OOC breaks to decay your adrenaline or sit on an unusable burst.

The main benefit I can see to this suggestion is minor ... when you go from single mobs in OW. Berserker just doesn't work in that case anyways, EVEN if you can choose when to end your berserker mode. It's such an insignificant consideration.

The fact is that regardless of the situation, the whole berserker spec is designed so you NEVER want to leave it because you get hit with BOTH a CD and the Adrenaline loss. No reason to fix one and leave the other; it does almost nothing.

I think thematically, there is also a problem here, but it's less tangible to discuss and probably wouldn't mean much. Basically, it's 'weird' to be able to simply turn off your rage when you decide to at your convenience, though I do recognize that as is, it's as weird to be able to decide when to turn it on too as is the current game reality.

[rdigeri.7935]

@"Obtena.7952" said:But it's not wasted if I'm not in a situation where I don't burst ... there are other benefits to berserker that have nothing to do with using primal bursts.

Alright, fair, i'll rephrase, "wasted when i don't get the benefits of Berserk, and goes on cd when i'd actually need it"

The OW thing is much more complicated because in that situation, you have adrenaline gain to content with as well as berserker mode CD and duration. It's really not a big problem when you consider that fighting larger groups of mobs means you are in continuous combat and you don't get many of these OOC breaks to decay your adrenaline or sit on an unusable burst.

The main benefit I can see to this suggestion is minor ... when you go from single mobs in OW. Berserker just doesn't work in that case anyways, EVEN if you can choose when to end your berserker mode. It's such an insignificant consideration.

The fact is that regardless of the situation, the whole berserker spec is designed so you NEVER want to leave it because you get hit with BOTH a CD and the Adrenaline loss. No reason to fix one and leave the other; it does almost nothing.

I think thematically, there is also a problem here, but it's less tangible to discuss and probably wouldn't mean much. Basically, it's 'weird' to be able to simply turn off your rage when you decide to at your convenience, though I do recognize that as is, it's as weird to be able to decide when to turn it on too as is the current game reality.

I suppose Berserkers are similar to Hulk, so 'Rage Control' is debatable lorewise... Well, the change results may be minor, but both in Raids and in PvP this would go towards helping berserker settle with non-niche builds. Even as a QoL thing, it'd be worth it imo.

[Obtena.7952]

Well, here is the thing ... 'when you actually need it' ... you CAN play to camp a full adrenaline bar and blast Berserker mode when you 'need' it, whenever that may be but from where I sit, I need it all the time when I'm in combat and on encounters that last longer than 1 cycle of berserker. I would never cancel it if I know I'm going to hit my berserker CD during an encounter anyways.

There is common ground here ... I can see that having more control on berserker times will make it more applicable in OW situations; I do miss having my berserker access there the most. I just think it's a more complicated situation than being off your berserker cool-down to do that. I think the answer is making the off-berserker mode less deficient in design.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:I think the answer is making the off-berserker mode less deficient in design.

Just a reminder that it's not deficient in design. :grin:

[rdigeri.7935]

@"Obtena.7952" said:Well, here is the thing ... 'when you actually need it' ... you CAN play to camp a full adrenaline bar and blast Berserker mode when you 'need' it, whenever that may be but from where I sit, I need it all the time when I'm in combat and on encounters that last longer than 1 cycle of berserker. I would never cancel it if I know I'm going to hit my berserker CD during an encounter anyways.

There is common ground here ... I can see that having more control on berserker times will make it more applicable in OW situations; I do miss having my berserker access there the most. I just think it's a more complicated situation than being off your berserker cool-down to do that. I think the answer is making the off-berserker mode less deficient in design.

Yeah almost all the traits only affect Berserk, so you're just a normal warrior with 2 traitlines and no bursts while Berserk is on cd, that's why i proposed better control. You have a point that this might not be the best way to resolve the issue, although in this duration based version of berserker, I don't know what else could.For example if Berserker was instead a spec that kept normal f1 bursts, can only do lvl1 bursts, and landing a burst gave a "rage "stack, and at 3 "rage" stacks you would be in "Berserk state" with f1 skills transforming into primal bursts, i'd have no problem, since that'd make it upkeepable and accessible at all times (given that you can land your bursts reliably). Then berserk can just stop when you're below 3 stacks.The current Berserker relies both on using rage skills in basically all slots, and on alacrity, to keep up indefinitely.

[Sobx.1758]

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The current Berserker relies both on using rage skills in basically all slots, and on alacrity, to keep up indefinitely.

That's because being able to keep berk mode up indefinitely would be a terrible power creep and a failure from the overal game design perspective.

[rdigeri.7935]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The current Berserker relies both on using rage skills in basically all slots, and on alacrity, to keep up indefinitely.

That's because being able to keep berk mode up indefinitely would be a terrible power creep and a failure from the overal game design perspective.

If it could be kept up relatively easily, it would also be nerfed accordingly, so that's not really an issue.

[Sobx.1758]

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:The current Berserker relies both on using rage skills in basically all slots, and on alacrity, to keep up indefinitely.

That's because being able to keep berk mode up indefinitely would be a terrible power creep and a failure from the overal game design perspective.

If it could be kept up relatively easily, it would also be nerfed accordingly, so that's not really an issue.

And then what exactly is the point of changing it that way just to "get it nerfed" to the levels of base warrior anyways? The whole thing about this spec is at the very least slight change of playstyle/tempo swings (call it how you want, w/e), what exactly are you trying to achieve here? If you want it to be base warrior, play base warrior.

[rdigeri.7935]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:The current Berserker relies both on using rage skills in basically all slots, and on alacrity, to keep up indefinitely.

That's because being able to keep berk mode up indefinitely would be a terrible power creep and a failure from the overal game design perspective.

If it could be kept up relatively easily, it would also be nerfed accordingly, so that's not really an issue.

And then what exactly is the point of changing it that way just to "get it nerfed" to the levels of base warrior anyways? The whole thing about this spec is at the very least slight change of playstyle/tempo swings (call it how you want, w/e), what exactly are you trying to achieve here? If you want it to be base warrior, play base warrior.

you know there's a big difference between "shaving some damage off" and "nerfing to the levels of base warrior". The change of playstyle is the effort to keep berserker up, which core doesn't share. i feel like you're just nitpicking at everything you see

[Sobx.1758]

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:The current Berserker relies both on using rage skills in basically all slots, and on alacrity, to keep up indefinitely.

That's because being able to keep berk mode up indefinitely would be a terrible power creep and a failure from the overal game design perspective.

If it could be kept up relatively easily, it would also be nerfed accordingly, so that's not really an issue.

And then what exactly is the point of changing it that way just to "get it nerfed" to the levels of base warrior anyways? The whole thing about this spec is at the very least slight change of playstyle/tempo swings (call it how you want, w/e), what exactly are you trying to achieve here? If you want it to be base warrior, play base warrior.

you know there's a big difference between "shaving some damage off" and "nerfing to the levels of base warrior". The change of playstyle is the effort to keep berserker up, which core doesn't share. i feel like you're just nitpicking at everything you see

You said it could be nerfed accordingly. And as especs aren't supposed to be upgrades over core specs, "the levels of base warrior" is pretty much where it would need to be anyways. It feels like you want berk to play just like core warrior except with a pretty much free steroid on top of it. That should have no place in this game, whether you think it's nitpicking or not.

"The effort to keep berserker up"?

For example if Berserker was instead a spec that kept normal f1 bursts, can only do lvl1 bursts, and landing a burst gave a "rage "stack, and at 3 "rage" stacks you would be in "Berserk state" with f1 skills transforming into primal bursts, i'd have no problem, since that'd make it upkeepable and accessible at all times (given that you can land your bursts reliably). Then berserk can just stop when you're below 3 stacks.

If I understood correctly what you just proposed is nothing more than adding a second adrenaline bar for berk mode, so it would require as much ""effort"" as not getting out of combat. Give me a break.

[rdigeri.7935]

@"Sobx.1758" said:

you know there's a big difference between "shaving some damage off" and "nerfing to the levels of base warrior". The change of playstyle is the effort to keep berserker up, which core doesn't share. i feel like you're just nitpicking at everything you see

You said it could be nerfed accordingly. And as especs aren't supposed to be upgrades over core specs, "the levels of base warrior" is pretty much where it would need to be anyways. It feels like you want berk to play just like core warrior except with a pretty much free steroid on top of it. That should have no place in this game, whether you think it's nitpicking or not.

Berserker sacrifices toughness and requires upkeeping to have access to bursts, which is not at all free by the way. Since if you don't keep Berserk up, you are a 2 traitline no burst core warrior, keeping it up should result in more efficiency than core.

For example if Berserker was instead a spec that kept normal f1 bursts, can only do lvl1 bursts, and landing a burst gave a "rage "stack, and at 3 "rage" stacks you would be in "Berserk state" with f1 skills transforming into primal bursts, i'd have no problem, since that'd make it upkeepable and accessible at all times (given that you can land your bursts reliably). Then berserk can just stop when you're below 3 stacks.

If I understood correctly what you just proposed is nothing more than adding a second adrenaline bar for berk mode, so it would require as much ""effort"" as not getting out of combat. Give me a break.

this was a separate idea, and one that transforms berserk into a spec that gets more and more empowered as it lands bursts. It could, for example, executed be like:-3 bars, only one level bursts, f1 is normal burst and f2 is primal burst-f1 gives a stack of this "rage" on successful hit-f2 doesn't give "rage" (could even consume one) and it requires at least 3 stacks, with a max of 5-f2 skills are no longer an upgrade to the regular f1 bursts, instead, they become separate, complementary skills (for example, greatsword Primal Burst: "Fiery Sweep": a slash that creates a burning wave, knocking foes down in its path)-traits that were affecting berserk duration now instead are related to rage stacks-Bloody roar now gives x% damage bonus per rage stack on the berserker-etc etc

this could probably use tweaks and is problematic but hey, better than "press x to be angry for a while"

[Sobx.1758]

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:

you know there's a big difference between "shaving some damage off" and "nerfing to the levels of base warrior". The change of playstyle is the effort to keep berserker up, which core doesn't share. i feel like you're just nitpicking at everything you see

You said it could be nerfed accordingly. And as especs aren't supposed to be upgrades over core specs, "the levels of base warrior" is pretty much where it would need to be anyways. It feels like you want berk to play just like core warrior except with a pretty much free steroid on top of it. That should have no place in this game, whether you think it's nitpicking or not.

Berserker sacrifices toughness and requires upkeeping to have access to bursts, which is not at all free by the way. Since if you don't keep Berserk up, you are a 2 traitline no burst core warrior, keeping it up should result in more efficiency than core.

300 toughness so relevant in the light of what you get back for it :lol: (and yes, this is also why it's not the only tradeoff here -and it shouldn't be)"Requires upkeeping"? Almost like a regular adrenaline bar right now, wow. Totally deserves getting a free(!) berk steroid "24/7", lets implement all your valid ideas buffs asap.

For example if Berserker was instead a spec that kept normal f1 bursts, can only do lvl1 bursts, and landing a burst gave a "rage "stack, and at 3 "rage" stacks you would be in "Berserk state" with f1 skills transforming into primal bursts, i'd have no problem, since that'd make it upkeepable and accessible at all times (given that you can land your bursts reliably). Then berserk can just stop when you're below 3 stacks.

If I understood correctly what you just proposed is nothing more than adding a second adrenaline bar for berk mode, so it would require as much ""effort"" as not getting out of combat. Give me a break.

this was a separate idea, and one that transforms berserk into a spec that gets more and more empowered as it lands bursts.

Separate from what? That's what I'm commenting on, did you lose context of the quotes and responces somewhere along the way? What did you think I was commenting on right there, cancelling berserker? I don't think that would make any sense. If you got lost, start reading from here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/960758/#Comment_960758

this could probably use tweaks and is problematic but hey, better than "press x to be angry for a while"

That's, like, your opinion. And it's seemingly based more on some kind of role play fantasy scenario than an actual gameplay and "balancing attempt".I also find it interesting that immediately after proposing a change you end it with "this is problematic". Again, give me a break. All you want here is a power creeped spec (power creeped core warrior to be accurate) and judging from that last sentence, you probably know it's wrong.

[rdigeri.7935]

@"Sobx.1758" said:That's, like, your opinion. And it's seemingly based more on some kind of role play fantasy scenario than an actual gameplay and "balancing attempt".

You say that, but at the end of the day, aren't games about enjoyment? And i'm not the only one who thinks the 12 seconds of downtime are boring, look around.

Again, give me a break.You say that like this is your job man.

I also find it interesting that immediately after proposing a change you end it with "this is problematic".

Feel free to give yourself a break, I'm not preaching that "THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE TO BERSERKER", I'm throwing ideas around because that is what the forums are for and i'm not entirely content with the current state of the class.

All you want here is a power creeped spec (power creeped core warrior to be accurate) and judging from that last sentence, you probably know it's wrong.

That is my only, pure goal, a power creeped spec, you saw right through me. There's no way i'd simply like berserker to be more fun, no that'd be absurd!

[Sobx.1758]

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:That's, like, your opinion. And it's seemingly based more on some kind of role play fantasy scenario than an actual gameplay and "balancing attempt".

You say that, but at the end of the day, aren't games about enjoyment? And i'm not the only one who thinks the 12 seconds of downtime are boring, look around.

I can 100% find -at the very least- a few people that would like to one-shot raids by themselves and that would make the game more enjoyable for them, hardly an argument. Even moreso in an mmorpg.

Again, give me a break.You say that like this is your job man.

Weak attempt, mate. If you don't know what that expression means, google it.

I also find it interesting that immediately after proposing a change you end it with "this is problematic".

Feel free to give yourself a break, I'm not preaching that "THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE TO BERSERKER", I'm throwing ideas around because that is what the forums are for and i'm not entirely content with the current state of the class.

Why would you specifically quote "give me a break" separately when you comment on it again in an unrelated quote?

Also NOW you're saying you're not preaching that this needs to be done to berserker, but that's exactly what you do in this thread. You literally do it even in the first quote of this post. Nothing matters, because you want it that way and it's enough. So much for "not preaching".

You're throwing ideas, because that's what the forums are for, I'm explaining you why it's a bad idea (because that's what forums are for) and you go into defensive mode with main argument being "it would make it more enjoyable for me". Too bad it's not a singleplayer game, then that "argument" would actually make sense. Go download skyrim and mode the kitten out of it for your own enjoyment, where noone else cares.

All you want here is a power creeped spec (power creeped core warrior to be accurate) and judging from that last sentence, you probably know it's wrong.

That is my only, pure goal, a power creeped spec, you saw right through me. There's no way i'd simply like berserker to be more fun, no that'd be absurd!

Well, if you fail to understand that's what you're doing then I'm not sure if that's better or even worse tbh.

Also I understand you acknowledged you're wrong on the first 2/3rds of the post you now ignored. Just making sure before you ask me to copy/paste something from the same thread while you claim you answered to everything and I must be wrong when I decline. :D

[rdigeri.7935]

@"Sobx.1758" said:I can 100% find -at the very least- a few people that would like to one-shot raids by themselves and that would make the game more enjoyable for them, hardly an argument. Even moreso in an mmorpg.

No, yours is the stupid comparison. Slight alteration of a class and solo oneshotting raids is two different worlds, do you even hear yourself?

Weak attempt, mate. If you don't know what that expression means, google it.

Attempt at what?

"used to say that you do not believe or are disgusted about what someone has said or done"ok lol, i'm sure you have your reasons

Why would you specifically quote "give me a break" separately when you comment on it again in an unrelated quote?

Problem?

Also NOW you're saying you're not preaching that this needs to be done to berserker, but that's exactly what you do in this thread. You literally do it even in the first quote of this post. Nothing matters, because you want it that way and it's enough. So much for "not preaching".

Preaching and discussing are very different things. People are supposed to bring up ideas here, or pros and cons for each others' ideas. You're the one failing at that and instead opting for agressive remarks.Actually people made some legitimate good criticisms, and i was open minded to it.

You're throwing ideas, because that's what the forums are for, I'm explaining you why it's a bad idea (because that's what forums are for) and you go into defensive mode with main argument being "it would make it more enjoyable for me". Too bad it's not a singleplayer game, then that "argument" would actually make sense. Go download skyrim and mode the kitten out of it for your own enjoyment, where noone else cares.

Okay so you disagree, think that this wouldn't be "fun". Then you can just say that you disagree instead of all the personal attacks and invalid claim of imbalance.

Well, if you fail to understand that's what you're doing then I'm not sure if that's better or even worse tbh.Also I understand you acknowledged you're wrong on the first 2/3rds of the post you now ignored. Just making sure before you ask me to copy/paste something from the same thread while you claim you answered to everything and I must be wrong when I decline. :D

You always claim things but never actually bring examples of why it doesn't work. You are being unproductive. I'm still waiting for you pointing out what your "ultra super contrapost" is because i don't see any.

I really don't wanna continue this unless you actually got something to say.