nia.4725

I don't know why you find it odd, but the rewards ARE the largest topic of discussion in this thread and every other one on this subject. Very few ask about it, but they keep asking about it for pages and pages. I think already on the first few pages there was an understanding by many about giving different rewards on different tiers of play. But of course it wasn't enough. Now on to your own suggestion, I'm a bit confused but how exactly is having a training mode for Raids going to help you find a team for the normal ones?For example, running lower Tier Fractals won't open up higher tiers for any player. Or running T4 Fractals won't allow you to be accepted into teams going for the CMs.Is this training mode going to give you LI and KP so you can enter the normal tier Raids? If that's the case then I expect a massive swift in how pugs work and an insane increase in LI requirements if that ever happens. What dows the "first post say? what did the vote ask? nothing about loot, just other modes. The Loot got spun in later.How can you not see how an easy mode with all the same mechanics but much more forgiving (depending on if its looted as easy mode or no loot as a trainer) teach someone actively the mechanics of the given raid. Case in point, watched a video 3 times, started Cairn in a training group, got screwed up because watching is different from doing.The point is external videos and guides are a crutch that we have allowed game companies to lean on for too long. Put the kitten tools in the game to learn the fight. Do you complain if any other compplex product you buy does not include instructions? ya know "some assembly required" but no instructions. In any other industry we call and point out there "mistake" You replied to yourself. Watching a video is not the same as doing, and doing forgiving-easy-mode will never be the same as doing normal mode. If you can be outside Saul's bubble and not get high damage you won't learn how to deal with the right thing. You'll get used to be able to stay outside of the bubble, then you'll go to normal mode Deimos, you'll play as you will have learnt to play on easy mode and... You'll die. I do think that a training mode is necessary but the boss should remain exactly the same. Otherwise you're not training anything, you're just getting bad habits. Also I agree that anet should not rely so heavily on the community's goodness and willingness to teach and produce guides. But I don't think giving us the info about how the boss works and how to deal with it is the solution, either. That would make raids incredibly boring. I could get behind that tbh, if the mechanics are exactly the same whatever. anything that would make it possible to go in and face the boss without the hassle of setting everything up. I mean who's gonna respond to "hey, we've never done this before but are going to go take on VG" they'll never get the people until Johnny Crook from the Den of Weasels guild tells them his people can get em in for a "small fee"Well, I do think that those "first time VG" LFGs always end up filling, and often they even get experienced people. I've been joining training runs today, and yesterday too, pretty much all day, and we always got 10 people. At least 2 people out of 10 had experience on the boss. Trainings do not always end well for many reasons but I really think they are doable. However, things get messy and frustrating when the group does not have a common goal. I also have to admit that some newbies have no patience at all and expect to get a kill on the first try, and because they don't, they leave. Experienced raiders are far more patient, when they are aware that they are in a training run.

I don't know why you find it odd, but the rewards ARE the largest topic of discussion in this thread and every other one on this subject. Very few ask about it, but they keep asking about it for pages and pages. I think already on the first few pages there was an understanding by many about giving different rewards on different tiers of play. But of course it wasn't enough. Now on to your own suggestion, I'm a bit confused but how exactly is having a training mode for Raids going to help you find a team for the normal ones?For example, running lower Tier Fractals won't open up higher tiers for any player. Or running T4 Fractals won't allow you to be accepted into teams going for the CMs.Is this training mode going to give you LI and KP so you can enter the normal tier Raids? If that's the case then I expect a massive swift in how pugs work and an insane increase in LI requirements if that ever happens. What dows the "first post say? what did the vote ask? nothing about loot, just other modes. The Loot got spun in later.How can you not see how an easy mode with all the same mechanics but much more forgiving (depending on if its looted as easy mode or no loot as a trainer) teach someone actively the mechanics of the given raid. Case in point, watched a video 3 times, started Cairn in a training group, got screwed up because watching is different from doing.The point is external videos and guides are a crutch that we have allowed game companies to lean on for too long. Put the kitten tools in the game to learn the fight. Do you complain if any other compplex product you buy does not include instructions? ya know "some assembly required" but no instructions. In any other industry we call and point out there "mistake"You replied to yourself. Watching a video is not the same as doing, and doing forgiving-easy-mode will never be the same as doing normal mode. If you can be outside Saul's bubble and not get high damage you won't learn how to deal with the right thing. You'll get used to be able to stay outside of the bubble, then you'll go to normal mode Deimos, you'll play as you will have learnt to play on easy mode and... You'll die. I do think that a training mode is necessary but the boss should remain exactly the same. Otherwise you're not training anything, you're just getting bad habits. Also I agree that anet should not rely so heavily on the community's goodness and willingness to teach and produce guides. But I don't think giving us the info about how the boss works and how to deal with it is the solution, either. That would make raids incredibly boring.

The thing is, a druid will always be better. It provides heals plus boons like regen, fury, swiftness, vulnerability and weakness, perma 25 stacks of might. It encreases DPS by using frost and sun spirit, it gives Spotter (100 precision) and also gives protection by using stone spirit. Plus, it has a party ressurrect. And, if that was still not enough, it has a variety of useful pets like iboga, which even nerfed deals good damage, and cc ones like the rock gazelle and the wyvern. So, druid will always be superior. And given the endgame content meta composition, I think only very casual t4 parties will be okay with not having a druid. In my opinion, even firebrand is vastly superior. It brings a lot more boons, potent heals, cc, resistance, a pull and lots of aegis.

Ele heals are veeery good. The problem is, ele does not give more than that. No buffs, no utilities, nothing. Just heals. Not very ideal. Firebrand is extremely good but it requires an specific composition around it. I mean, you won't want to use a druid nor a chrono when you're using a heal firebrand in fracs. However, fb lacks something that chrono has: alacrity. So, you ideally want to be sorrounded of DPS classes that don't depend on alacrity (like thieves).

Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. Laughable, as played hours are meaningless to a company. Many casuals have been here since launch and even beta, and unlike hardcore players, casuals often do not game hop, they find a game they like, and play that loyally, often freely and happily investing money into their hobby. In fact, haven't you noticed a trend in most AAA and Mainstream MMO, that they just tack on PvP for their hardcore players and call it done, and all their PvE content is casual focused, with crafting, gathering, world building, and their big bad monsters are often geared towards being social events as opposed to difficult or meta style fights. A user that plays a lot of hours will probably be more loyal, and spend more. This has been proven false, as often those who invest more hours have more in game currency to get away with not spending money. Also, if they have a lot of hours to burn into a game they tend to not have gainful employment and this lack disposable income. There is zero truth this as well, and given Anets tanked earning following HoT.. there is a lot of evidence to say this is the opposite of what is in fact true. All of this is a fallacy that has in fact been proven wrong.Where? When? By who? Do you even know what a fallacy is, or you just didn't understand my post?

Players are not equal. Hardcore players in general have spent much longer in this game. Accommodating the casuals is one thing, surviving only on casuals is completely different. Laughable, as played hours are meaningless to a company. Many casuals have been here since launch and even beta, and unlike hardcore players, casuals often do not game hop, they find a game they like, and play that loyally, often freely and happily investing money into their hobby. In fact, haven't you noticed a trend in most AAA and Mainstream MMO, that they just tack on PvP for their hardcore players and call it done, and all their PvE content is casual focused, with crafting, gathering, world building, and their big bad monsters are often geared towards being social events as opposed to difficult or meta style fights.A user that plays a lot of hours will probably be more loyal, and spend more. Do you know that monetizer player classification? Minnows, dolphins and whales. I don't think a lot of raiders are minnows. My guess is that the majority of us are dolphins, and some of us whales. Those two groups are typically a very complainer type of player -we complain about this, we complain about that. We want our game to be better and it's not easy to satisfy us. But when things are well done, we spend money. And if we complain it's because we care about the game. This game cannot survive with just minnows. Raiders spend a lot of time in the game, raiding, practicing, gearing their characters... they will buy all the expansions, because they need to be able to play the best specs. So much time invested means that they will not jump to another game easily. And shiny rewards like the Envoy help with that. Why would you change to a game where you don't have anything if, in GW2, you're a Voice in the Void player with all 3 sets of legendaries and a ton of other shiny things, if you have accomplished so much here? So, honestly, I don't think losing all raiders would be meaningless. It's not about "raiders are just a 10%" of the playerbase. It's about how much profit gives a raider to Anet compared to a casual OW player. Maybe we're just a 10%, yeah, but maybe a raider spends much more than one of those players from the 90%.

Making an expansion is also too much work. It's too much work to make a new skin for old content. But I refuse to believe that we won't ever get another PVE Legendary Armor skin from future content. The PVP and WVW legendary armors are core content, available to all expansions, and core owners, meaning getting another Legendary Armor set from PVP or WVW is highly unlikely.On the other hand, Envoy Armor is specifically tied to Heart of Thorns, another version will be needed at some time, maybe one that is not tied to an expansion at all.Like https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41758/fractal-legendary-armor/p1 or https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41904/hellfire-radiant-sets-ability-to-turn-into-legendary something that doesn't involve expansions and is permanent in the game. Indeed the devs said they don't plan on creating a new legendary armor anytime soon. It was too much work and had too many issues. I don't think they'll do a full fx armor again. Maybe a normal skin as legendary with shades, colors and blabla, but with mobile parts like the Envoy? I don't think so.

@Ohoni.6057 said: You should have a wider perspective on this. Losing all raiders is losing lots of long-term customers who will keep buying your game and all things associated with it. Raiders are often loyal, highly active players who spend a lot of time and money on the game. Because we raid, and raids require some level of dedication, we give a lot of our gamer time to this game and nothing else. Plus, being dedicated to raids means that we will buy every new expansion -because new expansion means new professions and new raids. And by keeping us in the game with this, we end up buying more anet products, like gems. We're nothing less that any other player in this game. Nothing more and nothing less, and we're definitely a chunk of the playerbase worth keeping.

Selective memory, or just making assumptions? https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview?page=3 How is referring an article from 2011 relevant at all? Things evolve and change, that's the general order of things in life...It was used to explain that Anet always intended to have challenging content such as raids, ofc it's relevant.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing. It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself. And then you hit me with this: Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for those players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them. That's just drawing a big ??? for me there. The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course. It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode. Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor. I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc. I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes? If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too? And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy. If Envoy wasn’t attached to raids, then I don’t think we would nearly have the problems we have been discussing about. Why do casual non-raiders care about legendary armor? The ability to stat swap gear and runes is really only a benefit in more raids and t4 and CM fractals by allowing you to run more builds which only really matters in difficult content that challenges you anyway. Same reason people get Legendary weapons... Prestige. Which legendary weapons don't actually have. I personally think each Legendary Weapons should have been gated behind a unique quest ending with a Liadri of the Concealing Darkness type of difficult boss. You get prestige by having the Dhuum throne or a title. Nah. Anyone can buy the Dhuum Throne. The title does have prestige though because it shows an actual accomplishment. But it can be bought and a lot of people used an exploit, in reality it does not mean a thing. Sadly.

I'm not going to allow you to get away with these extremely vague accusations. Moving the goalposts is where when you present an argument (or demand for proof), someone answers it, and you retroactively change said argument so the answer doesn't apply anymore. It's one of those fallacies that allows the user to (incorrectly) trick themselves into thinking they don't ever have to be wrong, which is what you're doing. It's also what you did. You said someone's suggestion had no pros, I listed some pros, you say they weren't pros, I saw that's because you're only thinking of yourself. And then you hit me with this: Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for those players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them. That's just drawing a big ??? for me there. The more I read these comments,the more I wonder if putting Legendary Envoy armor behind Raids was a good idea. Had they not thrown in the armor would many of us even be discussing any of this right now? Hypothetically speaking of course. It was a positively horrible idea to do what they did.. and it is about the only thing that is bringing in new blood to the game mode. Thankfully they had a bout of common sense and put in alternate paths to Legendary Armor. I honestly don’t think people wouldn’t be complaining nearly as much, if they only kept the current raid skins you find now like the pieces of Dhuum’s armor, Matthias staff etc. I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes? If you give non-raiders the envoy armor, do you really think they're going to be happy until they get Oblivion and everything else too? And yet, I see no one complaining about oblivion or the Dhuum armor at all though. What I do see is people complaining about Envoy.Few non-raiders know those skins exist.

Yes, and again, for that proposal to be relevant to this thread, it would need to be within the context of resolving the issues of players who were left unsatisfied by the current raids. Most of your "positives" involved it "not being so bad a change for those who currently were already fine," rather than ways that it would actually improve anything for those it would need to benefit. Inaccurate. My goalposts have always been consistent. They are not perhaps where you want them to be, but Yes, I understand how marketing works, that does not mean that things cannot change in the future. As Maddoctor pointed out, when the game launched, explorable dungeons were intended to be as hard as it gets in the game, but later they decided to add even harder content, and some of you seem to like that. We were not talking about this. Go back to the topic. I agree that we weren't talking about this, but then you started talking about it, and I responded to your comment. If you didn't want to be talking about it, then why raise the issue in the first place?? I did not. We were discussing how Anet came to the decision of giving the Envoy as a reward from raids. I said that they didn't give the Envoy arbitrarily, they actually decided that was the reward they wanted to give for such a difficult content, as my quote shows. Nothing else.

Oh yes please, I absolutely want to keep for myself all the Envoys I have NOT crafted with my 900li! ALL FOR ME MWHAHAHA I'M SO EVIL AND SELFISH

Yes, I understand how marketing works, that does not mean that things cannot change in the future. As Maddoctor pointed out, when the game launched, explorable dungeons were intended to be as hard as it gets in the game, but later they decided to add even harder content, and some of you seem to like that. We were not talking about this. Go back to the topic.

Sure it did. That's entirely arbitrary. There is no reason why a kid should get a special reward for doing "the most difficult" activity. The teacher benefits in no way from having kids doing "the most difficult activity," from the teacher's perspective, ALL that matters is that each kid ENJOYS the activity they are going, regardless of which activity that may be. I don't think you understood the analogy at all. I'm sorry, maybe I should have made it simpler, but I honestly don't know how. I was talking about the access to the reward. Raiders have not "earned" exclusive access to the rewards. They have not "earned" being allowed to have the Envoy armor, those were gifts granted to them. The point is, just because raiders "did X, Y, and Z" and were granted Envoy armor as a result, does not mean that ONLY players who do X, Y, and Z should be allowed to have it. I've been consistent as to why I think an easy mode is necessary. 1. To provide players a more casual access to the story and gameplay of the current raid instances, and 2. to provide players with more casual access to Envoy Armor and other rewards currently gated by raid participation. I agree, for the hard mode. The easy mode would be different though, with different expectations of the players. I believe that players who want "training runs," who want that sort of experience, should have that experience as an option, but I don't believe that it fits all players, and I don't believe that all players should have to be fit into it. Yes, and neither are you. Raiders already seem to be mostly fine with how raids are now, and if there are things they'd like changed, I mostly support that, but right now we're talking about the people for whom raids do NOT currently work, and making the mode more fun for those players. The changes I advocate for are in the service of that goal. I do not expect existing raiders to benefit significantly from those changes, but that is not the point of them. Still less interested than I am in Envoy armor. If they let us pick, then sure, but if we had no choice in which we ended up with, then no thanks. No, you didn't understand- Maybe you need this quote. As a reward for defeating the raid bosses, we realized early on that we would need something that reflects your success to other players. Enter legendary armor—the ultimate pinnacle of armor in all of Tyria. Maybe I was the one who should have made it simpler.

Didn't you just said that we don't earn anything, we just get gifted?

But anet choosing to tie legendary armor to raids didn't work like that. It's like the teacher created a whole gymkana. And he said "this is difficult, I should give them the biggest reward because this is the most difficult activity they have here". And so, he decided to give them the best candy. And you're that other one kid who doesn't like big physical activities but want that specific candy, and so you go to that teacher and tell him "hey, I don't like that physical activity, it is too much. Make an easier gymkana and give that candy you gave the others" And the others say "what? He wants to get the candy by doing an easier gymkana? That's unfair! If he wants this candy, he should try to do the same effort as us" And you are like "no! Because I don't like physical activity! Give me that candy for an easier version of that physical activity!" In fact it reminds me of my school years. I have never liked physical education. But I have always like getting the best grades. However, as I was not willing to do the effort required to get a good mark at PE, I never got it (and I have asthma so physical activity is difficult for me, but honestly, if I really wanted I could have done it; the requirements weren't that high). Should the teacher have given me al alternate way of getting the higher grade?

They put in effort, that does not mean that they earned anything. Again, earning requires that they add value, that their effort accomplished something. Applying effort to an entertainment product is not "earning" anything. As I've said, I intend to put in just as much effort in acquiring the armor as any of you have, just in an easy mode rather than in the normal mode. And again, nothing entitles you to be able to determine that the effort you do is somehow "more worthy" than the effort I do. If the developers say that it is a valid amount, then they are right, because they decide who to gift with what. You both have entered a loop where you basically go like this: 1: YES!2: NO!1: AGAIN, YES!2: AGAIN, NO! Which starts to be a little bit funny. No one is going to change their opinion on this.

We have enough high damage builds, give us a heal/support build that can do something more than just big heal sustain. Heal tempest is cool but it just heals while all other healing builds like fb, herald or druid have heal and great utility, cc even.

I'd like a high mobility, dynamic spec that changes the guard's heavy feel. That's why I choose pistol, even though I also like dagger and warhorn. The best tho would be a spear tbh, paragon ftw.

I voted for focus but I think there are some interesting options. It would be cool to see something new and unique, that's why I think a magical weapon that doesn't seem very ranger-like like focus or scepter would be good and interesting options for a new spec. If it wasn't that, pistol would be cool... But I think its concept would end up being more traditional and boring. Same with shield, as long it's not just a block and some cc it would be cool too.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who never want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it. I get that existing raiders want to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're entitled to it. People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too. I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet. 2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all. Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre. so lets keep the fairness hat on. wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same. sPvP has something like tiers -unranked and ranked - only ranked gives legendary armor.WvW does not have tiers.If easy mode exists raids would have tiers, why do they have to give 2 different legendary armors? If I keep your "fairness" hat on, and apply the model of sPvP, easy mode raids should not have anything related to a legendary armor. Not even the pre. If you cant empathise there's not much that's going to persuade you is there., and you are missing the point of my initial post. The point is existing raids get something desirable, and easy mode raiders get something too. The people that gain from these raids are people just like you incidently, not 2nd class citizens because they cant commit to the existing style of raiding. Read the post from your fellow raiders above, they can appreciate and understand compromise. You're switching arguments. This has nothing to do with claiming that " wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same". Nope easy mode players wouldn't be 2nd class citizens, of course not. Of course they should get something. I'm not saying that, you're assuming things. The only thing I'm saying is that easy mode shouldn't give a legendary armor. I even said that it could give the pre, and that's more than what other tiered game modes give right now. Let's be fair, it isn't normal that both easy mode and normal mode give a legendary armor. Easy mode could give ascended drops, the pre, idk, a lot of things, but not the legen. No the 'only' thing you are saying is that people who raid easy mode shouldn't get the rewards that are given to wvw, spvp and raids purely because you don't want them to get them. Very odd considering quite obviously pve players would love this. You basically ignored the points above and went back to infer the old argument that PVE players either change their tastes and/or their real life commitments ( or is it 'not be lazy') or f*ck em they can make do with non legendary rewards. very fair to be sure and altruistic, especially with your 'give ascended drops' knowing fine well ascended is no longer a long term goal and are trivial to obtain.went back to infer the old argument that PVE players either change their tastes and/or their real life commitments??????????????????You're confusing people here, mate. Go back to read my posts.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who never want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it. I get that existing raiders want to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're entitled to it. People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too. I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet. 2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all. Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre. so lets keep the fairness hat on. wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same. sPvP has something like tiers -unranked and ranked - only ranked gives legendary armor.WvW does not have tiers.If easy mode exists raids would have tiers, why do they have to give 2 different legendary armors? If I keep your "fairness" hat on, and apply the model of sPvP, easy mode raids should not have anything related to a legendary armor. Not even the pre. If you cant empathise there's not much that's going to persuade you is there., and you are missing the point of my initial post. The point is existing raids get something desirable, and easy mode raiders get something too. The people that gain from these raids are people just like you incidently, not 2nd class citizens because they cant commit to the existing style of raiding. Read the post from your fellow raiders above, they can appreciate and understand compromise.You're switching arguments. This has nothing to do with claiming that " wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same". Nope easy mode players wouldn't be 2nd class citizens, of course not. Of course they should get something. I'm not saying that, you're assuming things. The only thing I'm saying is that easy mode shouldn't give a legendary armor. I even said that it could give the pre, and that's more than what other tiered game modes give right now. Let's be fair, it isn't normal that both easy mode and normal mode give a legendary armor. Easy mode could give ascended drops, the pre, idk, a lot of things, but not the legen.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who never want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it. I get that existing raiders want to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're entitled to it. People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too. I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet. 2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all. Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre. so lets keep the fairness hat on. wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same.sPvP has something like tiers -unranked and ranked - only ranked gives legendary armor.WvW does not have tiers.If easy mode exists raids would have tiers, why do they have to give 2 different legendary armors? If I keep your "fairness" hat on, and apply the model of sPvP, easy mode raids should not have anything related to a legendary armor. Not even the pre.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who never want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it. I get that existing raiders want to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're entitled to it. People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too. I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet.2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all. Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre.