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1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's where you ignore reality. Not all players feel the same way so, no Anet can't make a game based on how players feel. Believe it or not, there is a wide spread of opinions about this change. 

Sure, angry players are going to believe whatever they want because they didn't get the result they asked for. Anet acts on some feedback and some they don't; that's a reasonable expectation. 

 

I'm not here to argue that point, I am firmly planted in reality thanks. My point is that you can't dismiss a large portion of the player base and their feedback just because a gaming company says things are fine. Them saying it is doesn't mean it's so and that was a bad argument on your part. It's that simple really. Y

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Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... and there isn't any reason to believe Anet didn't do that in this case. Also, and nothing about my original comment should have given you issue because nothing I said suggested Anet is ignoring or should ignore feedback either. Anet simply can't make a game based on how every player feels it should work. 

Everything you said gave that impression lol. I don't know how many times I need to quote your own words back to you. And yes they can make a game based on how players feel, that's why they ask for feedback. People are saying they didn't listen to that feedback. This has nothing to do with making everyone happy. There's a difference between annoying a minority and angering a large number of folks who end up quitting because of it.

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Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, I guess that simply depends if you are a realist or not. In the REAL world, Anet can't make the game cater to everyone that is dissatisfied with how the game works. 

Yes but companies would be wise to take into account feedback and not just wave it off and say things are fine because they simply say it is. I'm not saying Arenanet is or isn't doing this btw, I'm saying theoretically. And that is why I found issue with your original comment.

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Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Obviously, this is how people that don't like their reality think. It's very hard for for people to accept if they don't want to believe it. It's simply not arguable to deny Anet has a process they use to make class changes. If you want to believe that's a dismissal of player's opinions, that's not on me. 

Saying everything is in a good place simply because a company says it is, despite customer dissatisfaction, is an incorrect take.

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1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right, an illogical argument which never existed because I didn't make a response to 'those saying they felt their feedback wasn't listened to' with any intent to 'simply wave those people off by saying Anet decides what's in a good place' to begin with. What I DID do what describe the process Anet is using to determine if a class is in a good place because it's pretty apparent many people have some very unreasonable expectations about how the game should work based on how they think it should work and not based on the criteria that Anet has for that. 

This isn't a waving off ... it's a reality check. 

You did though. It's in this thread. Go back and read the thread.

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Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

OK. I never stated opinions aren't valid. It's just not possible for Anet to appease every customer because not all customers feel 'a certain way' about the changes they make. That appears to be a significant trigger point for you ... but it's just reality. 

No what triggered me was an illogical argument. I don't care either way to be fair. I was simply pointing out that your response to those saying they felt their feedback wasn't listened to made no sense. To simply wave those people off by saying Anet decides what's in a good place, and not customers, is silly.

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Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

No, I said their feedback doesn't determine if something is in a good place. That's not a judgement on whether player feedback is valuable or not. 

Which goes back to my original point, that what a company says is irrelevant if customers feel a certain way. Their opinions are valid.

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3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

*Hand on shoulder*

My guy.

The cost of this to your sanity is too great.

Save yourself.

lol, this person is really doubling down. Maybe they're forgetting what they previously said or something idk.

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Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, that's not true at all. I didn't directly reply to anyone with my initial post. If you think that initial post is direct reply to people talking about feedback, you're imagining that. 

You're trying to wiggle out of it, it's okay to be wrong man geez. You replied to a thread about people saying they felt their feedback wasn't being listened to with you saying their feedback doesn't factor in because Anet said it's in a good place so therefore it is. This doesn't logically make sense. I was simply pointing that out. Now you're denying saying a bunch of stuff lol.

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Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes ... because player opinions are a wide range of different ideas and biases. Anet can't 'measure' player opinion. 

You're wrong sorry. Go back and read this thread, yes I know you changed a lot of what you previously posted in edits, but it still doesn't make sense. You replied to those talking about feedback with saying if Anet says it's in a good place then it is and that it's a fact. This is a false premise.

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2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes and

1. that isn't my opinion about where things are 

2. That's not me saying feedback doesn't factor in. 

so ... again, your interpretation is just ... way off. 

Again, you literally said: "The fact is that players opinions do not determine if something is in a good place."

 

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5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 I didn't say things were in a good place ever. Another misunderstanding you seem to have.....

What do you mean? Where did I say this? Nothing you are saying is even close to being accurate to the message I'm repeating to you. 

 

You literally said:

n 7/29/2023 at 9:46 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

1. Do people play the class the amount Anet wants?

2. Does the class work the way Anet wants it?

If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you. 

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59 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, just a misunderstanding you are having that I have clarified for you MANY times.

It's not my opinion that things are in a good place. I never said they were. I'm simply telling what some criteria are that Anet uses to make that determination themselves. 

 

You initial reply where you stated that things are in a good place because Anet says it is, was in response to the people above you saying they didn't listen to feedback. Then you went on and said feedback doesn't factor in.

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2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, there you go ... trying to tell me what I'm doing again.

Again, it's not my opinion that things are in a good place. I'm simply telling what some criteria are that Anet uses to make that determination. You don't think it's relevant to the person I'm responding to? OK ... opinion noted ... and dealt with accordingly. 😉

Just going based on your own words, regardless of whether you go back and change them after the fact.

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1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I know you did. You can disagree with it all you like but Anet has told us it's their process. That's not my opinion that you can argue with me about. That's simply how Anet operates because they told us those are criteria they use to making class changes. 

You're trying to frame it as it's their process when it doesn't matter. Your first point was saying that things are in a good place because the company said so when that's irrelevant to the person you were responding to. They don't dictate that.

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2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure I did make changes but my overall message hasn't changed. That shouldn't ACTUALLY be a problem because we aren't here to discuss how I use the forum. You are here to talk about the message I'm making. 

Anet has criteria they use to determine if classes are in a good place. I listed two of those in my first post. Players opinions do not determine what is in a good place or not; That determination is purely a result of Anet's assessment. 

Again, it's not my assessment that things are in a good place simply because a company is hitting it's marks or because they say so. That's just your misunderstanding of what I wrote. I'm simply giving some criteria for how Anet takes classes to that good place. 

You literally JUST did it again. I was replying to you and then had to stop and go back to quote your initial post from the first page, I come back to page three and your post is now changed and there's a whole new paragraph. Seriously WHY do you do that?  Anyway this is what I went back to quote:

On 7/29/2023 at 9:46 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

1. Do people play the class the amount Anet wants?

2. Does the class work the way Anet wants it?

If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you. 

This is this post that started it all. I gave a great example as to why I disagree with it.

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37 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There isn't anything dishonest about making edits to posts to correct or improve the text. as long as the general message doesn't change. In case you haven't noticed, I will ALWAYS repeat my points in every post, consistently, to show that such accusations that I change what I say in previous posts to discuss in bad faith are nonsense. Here let me do that right now. 

Anet has criteria they use to determine if classes are in a good place. I listed two of those in my first post. Players opinions do not determine what is in a good place or not; That determination is purely a result of Anet's assessment. That's not me saying player opinions don't matter, like you accuse me of saying/implying. That's simply a terrible take you have on what I did say to have a go at me. 

That doesn't change the fact that you've altered your posts after the fact. You've done it before too and you did it to that other person as well. You're not arguing in good faith, I see that now. Let's not derail this person's thread. I was simply saying that I disagreed with your assessment over whether things are in a good place simply because a company is hitting it's marks or because they say so. I think that's a faulty argument.

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44 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's just dishonest. I'm not changing what I said at all. The message is consistent. Anet has criteria they use to determine if classes are in a good place. Players opinions do not determine what is a good place or not. That in NO WAY means I think players opinions don't matter ... that's just your absurdly bad take. 

Perhaps if you stopped trying to tell me what I said (when I didn't say things) and arguing with me about your interpretations of what you THINK I'm implying (when I didn't imply them), you wouldn't be in this mess. 

It's not dishonest. What's dishonest is saying something, then going back and editing it. 

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1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 I can't be more clear for you.

That's the problem, you are not clear and you keep changing your previous arguments.  You said player opinions don't factor in then try to argue you didn't say it lol.

55 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

First time engaging with Obtena?

38 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Just don't bother "arguing" against the wall. This kind of "discussion" will just go on and on in circles until a moderator decides the thread has run its course and locks it.

It's significantly more meaningful to walk around the wall and reply to people who have an actual interest in the topic.

Actually I do remember this happening once before but in that case I had copied everything they said and was able to call them out on it. You're right I will avoid this person so I don't derail someone's thread. Thanks for the tip.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The fact is that players opinions do not determine if something is in a good place.

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 I didn't say people's opinions didn't matter at all, not once. You're just making up stuff now.

I don't make stuff up and I sure as heck don't ninja edit every single one of my posts like you do. You seemed to imply it doesn't matter in other comments not just that one. It's not my fault if you phrase things in a manner that is confusing or contradictory, even that other person said as much. 

I need to start making sure I fully quote you in replies and not partially. I really don't like people going back and changing things they've already said in the middle of a discussion. That's shady.

 

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2 minutes ago, Widebody.5071 said:

I was just following your line of logic, I is that not what you were implying when I quoted you? You reply is way out of context.

That person keeps editing their post and I do remember originally their initial reply to you was completely different.

 

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. ALL of these changes has EVERYTHING to do with Anet's process for making those changes. That's not something to argue about. That's simply how it works. That process includes player feedback as well and we have examples of when that did affect the changes they implemented. Just not this time. 

It makes perfect sense. You literally said that things are good simply because Anet said so and that people's opinions don't matter. You straight up said that's how it is and that it's the truth. I am telling you that argument has a bad premise and just gave you an example as to why it's bad.

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2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Because it's not faulty logic. It's simply how Anet's process works. Either you ignore that process at your own folly or you learn what it is and do your best to make meaningful suggestions within that process. Whether I think that process is good or bad is irrelevant and I've made no claim either way, so there isn't some argument with me to be had here. 

It has nothing to do with Anet's process, it's not a logically sound lol. To give you an infamous example of what I'm trying to explain to you, substitute the Coca-Cola Company in place of Arenanet in your two points when they came out with New Coke:

Quote

1. Do people play the class the amount Anet wants?

2. Does the class work the way Anet wants it?

If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you.

1. Do people enjoy the product in testing in the amount Coca-Cola wants?

2. Does the marketing and rollout go as Coca-Cola wants it?

If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place' 

Narrator: "We were not in a good place." 😄

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2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Probably because your goal is to have some argument with me about something that there isn't any reason to argue about. Again, I'm not giving you my opinion about if something is in a good place or not; it's not an 'argument' with a 'bad premise'. I'm simply stating some of the criteria we KNOW Anet is using to determine if the changes they are making are putting things in what they think is a good direction. If people aren't going to put themselves into that same mindset, there isn't much they are going to say that will impact the decision for Anet to make that change. 

 

You edit every single post for some reason, keep contradicting yourself, and haven't actually address my point about your faulty logic which, according to you, is that if Anet is happy with their results (which obviously we do not know) that it means things are in a good place so to speak.  That makes absolutely no sense. But again, it's irrelevant anyway because players can and do have opinions and can tell when things aren't going well, regardless of whether a company says it is or not.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The fact is that players opinions do not determine if something is in a good place.

Players can absolutely see if something is working or not. This is common sense. If this weren't the case then companies wouldn't ask for feedback, aka, player opinions.

But again you keep talking about irrelevant stuff that has nothing to do with my original point, which was a counter to this:

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

1. Do people play the class the amount Anet wants?

2. Does the class work the way Anet wants it?

If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you. 

I was simply saying that this argument makes no sense, it's a bad premise. Their goals have no bearing on whether something actually is in a good place as you put it. There are countless examples of companies meeting their internal goals that ended up negatively impacting their customers and/or the company itself.  Companies do make mistakes. This isn't a difficult concept to understand. 

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25 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except there is no premise and this isn't some argument. It's simply true. I'm stating some of the typical criteria that we KNOW Anet is using to determine whether or not classes are in a place they are happy with ("the good place"). That has nothing to do with what SOME customers think is good or not. 

 

Of course there's debate and argument lol, that's what the forums are for. So yes there is a premise considering you gave a reason why it's in a good place. I'm simply saying that reason is faulty. The debate isn't about whether Anet thinks it's good. It's about the customers that disagree, so framing your argument that way makes no sense.  I'm not sure what you're saying is "simply true" but if you mean your 2 reasons for saying everything is fine, then no it's not true.