[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Konig, actually was refusing to accept easy facts, even after the NPC said the priests are avatars, aspects of gods.

I mean, you've just proven without a doubt that you have zero understanding of Guild Wars lore, from game 1 or 2, or even the novels or side stories with this very singular statement.

Like you cannot seriously say this and also go "I understand the lore of the human gods and their followers"

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

51 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

All of it was established facts, it's not hard to deny that Anet didn't think much of it.

Anet didn't think much of it? What? It was established lore in GW1 and nothing about that has changed. Every complaint about "How could they  lose" is injecting future lore bits into it as if the nation of Orr held every single artifact and ritual at full charge all the time, and there is no other way to see it.

 

And I'm sorry, but you are the one who is refusing to accept facts in this subject.

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

And this entire topic is a fine example of why it's important not to leap and write in your own lore into things, as you then will find yourself in conflict with actual releases. While we can theorize, or even try to fill in gaps, we must not absolutely declare X to be true until it's actually said to be true in the lore.

I can theorize that Sharur is super-powerful with massively destructive abilities like Sohothin does when it's super-charged around Balthazar, but there is no basis for these claims to be seen as true.

Even if we were to say such things happen, it could very well be like Sohothin is. In human hands, these objects are just very nice weapons or artifacts. But their power is locked behind forgotten rituals or the direct presence of the gods being there to activate/charge them.

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

10 hours ago, CETheLucid.3964 said:

The charr were being supported by Abaddon via the titans, and Abaddon had a man on the inside in Orr who he then used to magically nuke the place. Orr didn't win the war nor did it lose it as it was cut short before victory or defeat could be decided.

Also I kind of feel we've had this topic before already. Very recently. Did you not get a good answer the first go? Maybe I'm misremembering or thinking of another person who had the exact same question. 🤔

You know, on the "Artifacts side" The soldiers, and IIRC even priests of Grenth comment on Vizier preparing the spell that should wipe out the Charr. That could've lead some officers in the army to act as if they already won, which could be disaster for the formation. Squads thinking the war is already over, they fall the squads around them start splintering, then total army rout and destruction.

 

As for second part, the OP disappeared for a while then returned and commented on this.

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

6 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It's not real life event, dude, it's just lore they established, but obviously it makes little sense.

Again, they realized the Charr's threat, and the Charr got to go through Ascalon to get to Orr. Obviously they knew the Searing.

Keeper of the Shrine: The charr are at the doorstep of Orr. They plan to sear our nation as they did Ascalon.

Kryta being the example, they never fought the charr before as well, and they quickly adapted the tactic. I don't think the Mursaat had fought the charr before.

THIS is the problem: The charr couldn't wipe Ascalon for decades even after the Searing gave them huge advantage. And the Titans came out for a while.

They got wiped by Saul's men and 3 Mursaat.

Why would Orr, who had much better preparation than Kryta and Ascalon, didn't suffer the Searing, had such powerful magic casters and the Source lose in 1 day?

And even their most powerful weapon: The Searing was not stronger than Foefire, which was caused by Orr artifacts.

The Foefire was caused by an artifact that was not in Orr, and there is no indication that it can be cast by anything other then those two swords. This also is going off the whole problem of "Did they have time to prepare and get the artifacts? Not after the army was beat."

We can use RL battles to gain some insight into why things may have gone terribly. Overconfidence of the Orrian commanders perhaps, leading to their army being unprepared for actual battle (Much like how IRL battles were lost because the troops were hyped up with "We've already won, we just gotta walk over there and claim it!" )  When the army was destroyed and routed, it didn't have time to warn the rest of the nation before the Charr pushed through.

Ascalon survived because it was A: already well used to fighting the Charr and trained people specifically in that regard and B: had the great northern wall and their other fortifications. Even after the searing, the Charr had to push to get a foothold beyond the wall, until chunks of Ascalon's population left (To Kryta and to what was Ebonhawke).

Ascalon was used to fighting Charr. Orr was not. Kryta got lucky and managed to kill the leadership and the Charr forces retreated from there. The Mursaat also have the whole "Hidden one" thing. Kinda makes things lopsided in battle if you can hide yourself from their vision since the Charr aren't ascended.

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

13 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Yeah the "they lost in 1 day" is in the lore but makes no sense when we combine other facts together. Why would they not send their casters, when they knew clear that the Charr's biggest weapon was magic? If they didn't put it in one basket, then why did they send most of their army there?

It makes no sense because you refuse to accept or ponder any reason why.

They didn't know a thing about the Charr fighting style or magical abilities. They had never fought, and likely never saw a Charr before.

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

17 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

So Orrian army are small?

They are powerful fighters as they were shown, along with the Source of Orr's magic to buff them. There is no reason they lost in 1 day.

So are you saying that Orrian leaders are utter idiots, keep all of their powerful weapons: magic at bay when their nation is in trouble?

 

We don't know the exact size of the Orrian army, or how it compared size wise to the Charr. It's implied at the very least, the Charr army was equal.

Also, the source of orr isn't a buff applied to spellcasters. That isn't a thing that happens. And they did lose in one day, that is literally the lore, and saying anything otherwise is silly. You ask "Why did they lose" then promptly and constantly ignore every single reason that could be given. You are not interested at all in hearing anything else.

You know there is such a thing as "Don't place your eggs in one basket" They could've been preparing the spellcasters and the army marched out to buy time. It got destroyed so quickly (12 hours) they didn't have time to send warning back that things went south. You are acting like they had everything on hand, immediately ready to go, at the front lines. 

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

4 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

And the Orrian got strong army, the charr got to split their forces to 3 and march long distance.

Orrians got powerful magic as well.

Charr army wasn't small. Also Orrian army is unclear how many, or how powerful their spellcasters were.

Priests are not army spellcasters. The priests in the temple were at the temple when they died.

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

1 hour ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Mesmers can turn people into moas, don't see how that means it's god magic. 

He has very weird ideas on what "God-magic" is. Also apparently views things through a power-scaling lens with "Priests means Orr is more powerful then Charr so they should've won!" even though the Charr broke the army so fast it's unlikely any temple or even the king got warning the army was gone lol. 

[Any idea where Saldistead may be?]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Roads built in mountainous areas tend to swerve around said mountains even with modern technology. It seemed like the refugees in this context were the ones fleeing Jormag 150 years ago, so I doubt they had an actual paved road to follow, it was most likely a heavily trodden (by hundreds of thousands of norn in the exodus) path that got marked.

You do realize they'd have had to left Saldistead for Hoelbrak to be leaving Hoelbrak to return to Saldistead, right? "We all miss Hoelbrak" means they came from Hoelbrak on that trek, but they're originally from Saldistead. And there's nothing to suggest it was one time thing.

No specific length is given in the novel, four nights are explicitly mentioned, including the ones they depart and arrive, with several in-between mentioned but too uneventful to be part of the novel. But unlike Frode, they had a more or less straight route and even got to double time it with Rytlock's company across a lake. It's still far, far longer than what would be possible in-game by any standard. ANet's always played it fast and loose with how long it takes for a group to get form Point A to Point B, but keep in mind that Frode's group had Arina and Na with them - that's not going to be a fast travel, and will definitely be slower than 6 individuals moving as fast as they could to remain undetected.

I'm not really sure what lore books you are referencing, because some of these details aren't at all included Linking for direct reference. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frode's_Journal 

The Refugees mentioned would be the ones fleeing Saldistead, not 150 year old corpses or events. Also, only Sejm and Frode traveled back to Saldistead, and the "We all miss hoelbrek" is them leaving Hoelbrek to another location. Also, Ragna and Arina aren't included in any of the trips.  Even if Saldistead isn't in Bjora, it was apparently a major settlement with a lot of Norn, and was west of a Lake that was coated in Miasma, which sounds like stuff Drakkar/the Aberrants do.

Entry one: There is a line "They've grown apart from us, our people. Knut is worried what they'll do in isolation." Which does imply Frode and Sejm are from, or lived at Saldistead. However, if they had yearly contact with the settlement, why would Knut be worried about them being isolated and grown apart? The phase "Grown apart" and "Isolation" would imply that the community there had been out of contact. It very much seems like Knut had asked Frode and Sejm to travel far to the north to check on them. This is before winter, though a storm is making travel hard. They mention "For now, we Fortify." And that game is less bountiful on this side of the shiverpeaks. They miss Hoelbrek. So Ragna, Sejm, and Frode left Hoelbrek and went to another settlement. They are not at Saldistead or returning there as a group. Eir has gifted them mixtures that helped her before Braham was born (So Arina is, at the most, one year younger then Braham or so, depending how long Norn pregnancies last). 

Entry two: Winter is freshly here, Arina is born. They mention Wolf's teachings, and elders are watching over Ragna and Arina. Frode is helping repair the outer walls of the settlement. The only known walled settlement we've seen ingame (outside Hoelbrek, somewhat) is Craigstead. I believe that is where they are living based on how heavily they mention wolves and Ranga as a former priestess of Wolf. It's also a spot where refugees from the north would take shelter reasonably.

Entry three: Knut has written them a letter about dire news. And they recent had arrivals from the north/Saldistead. They don't speak, children are without parents, the wolves terrified. Only Ragna is figured to be able to communicate with them, but she's miserable and incredibly saddened by something and thus can't rise and talk to them. The refugees stay by the fires, eating their food. Knut promises to send rations when he can. This would tie into how Craigstead asked Knut for help in Flames and Frost, with the two settlements having good relations and helping each other. Sejm is mentioned again, talking about Wurm speaking to him. Frode has not heard the call, and is afraid of what they'll find since they will have to go before Spring's planned trip anyway.

Entry 4: Before leaving, Frode sees Ragna under blankets, and Arina playing with a doll gifted by Gaerta Whitebear, Knut's wife. Sejm and Frode travel north, though unknown beasts howl in the darkness of the trees and the travel is harsh. They travel along the road the refugees (Recently arrived, not 150 years old), but hidden, as it's lined with bodies of beast and Norn, dead where they fall. A huge number of dead are noted. A survivor, before they left, mentioned somebody must've stayed behind, but Frode is doubtful anybody is left, or that he will even return again.  

Entry 5: Saldistead was empty, not even bodies left there. It was empty and just dust and echoes. They go east to a lake, but the air is thick with Miasma. Nothing is around. Sejm rushed onto the lake and started to transform, crying out for Wurm. The transformation halted, and Sejm crashed beneath the waves with his limbs breaking off, killed. (I suspect the theory about Wurm purposefully stopping a boneskinner transformation is perhaps true, with Wurm claiming Sejm and causing him to die rather then give him up to Jormag). Frode is nearly home, but is broken.

Entry 6: five years later. Frode leaves the settlement, broken and haunted by that lake. He hopes Arina forgets him and Ragna is apparently dead at this point from unknown causes. This is where he runs into Astral Ward and joins them.

 

 

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

"change nature form" - not sure what "change nature form" you're talking about since the Priestess of Melandru doesn't change forms, but becoming a spectral oakheart is something all the druids did and they were neither exclusively human nor exclusively followers of Melandru. Their magic wasn't god magic, it was nature magic.

He earlier referred to the temple event where the Priest of Melandru goes invincible IIRC, and randomly turns players into animals or something.

[[Spoilers]Astral Ward and Magic]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I also had a strong impression that R'tchikk was, at most, a deputy. Her bastion is the Bastion of Knowledge, which is Isgarren's bastion. This contrasts with some of the other bastions that are run by high-ranking Astral Ward in the absence of a wizard, such as the Bastion of Nature being run by Zizzl, and weirdly enough I think I saw the sylvari doctor's hologram over the Obscure, but don't quote me on that. (It's probably going to be Zojja who takes over the Obscure in the end anyway.)

As for her capabilities... I don't remember her using magic, but I might not have been watching closely enough (probably distracted by Gladium doing daredevil stuff). The Astral Ward does seem to have more spellcasters than most military organisations (particularly friendly ones...), but not exclusively so.

Narcisse, the sylvari, runs the greenhouse at the bastion of the Natural.

Each bastion (Besides Balance and Celestial) appears to have a few high ranking Astral ward members helping run the place. R'tchikk runs the museum, while the Kodan runs the library. etc.

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I don't see any risen using god magic. I don't humans using god magic even if they are priests/spellcasters.

The only thing defined as god magic in core Orr is the effects surrounding the statues of the gods when the temples are active. Something that is actively immune to Zhaitan's corruption, as defined later in Arah explorable and S2, which is why Zhaitan and Risen cannot consume that magic so instead they just utilize it.

Wouldn't that, in a way, imply that Zhaitan can make use of god magic, as they use the network of statues to their advantage when they hold the temples? 😛

[Any idea where Saldistead may be?]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Frode's very act of moving south to Hoelbrak for Arina to be born and doesn't seem to have issues with knowing the route to take would suggest regular travel is an occurrence. It might not be "every month travel happens", but more than once a year. And I mean for the homesteaders in general, not Frode specifically.

So is Ascalon City from Ebonhawke. Roughly same distance between Hoelbrak and Bitterfrost - and unlike in Ascalon, there are mountains that force winding paths in the Shiverpeaks, canonically at least if not mechanically.

Frode's journal directly references following a road the refugees took, which was littered with bodies and remains. It's not like he was traveling without some sort of guiding trail.

Quote

We've stayed out of sight, following the path that the refugees took southward. Bodies line the road. Bloody remnants are just about everywhere—beast and norn alike. I don't know how many lost on their way, but that number is likely significant.

Infact, nothing mentions moving south away from Saldistead. They actually describe moving AWAY from Hoelbrek before Arina is born.

Quote

For now, we fortify. Come winter, we'll have one more belly to keep full. A smaller one, but game is less bountiful on this side of the Shiverpeaks nonetheless. We all miss Hoelbrak.

Also, wasn't it something more like 3 days to a week for the trip from Ebonhawke to Ascalon, with them setting up camp 3 times?

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

3 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It is actual lore, Risen's magic, or even Zhaitan itself's magic is quite different than Grenth.

And Necromancy is not some thing that can only come from Grenth. Orrian necromancers aren't using "God magic" They are using necromancy. You really need to learn the lore.

[Why the namechange of Commander?]

36 minutes ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

and still civilians who run into retired high level officers in social or professional settings refer to them by their title. And since Tyria is not USA 2023, it would be fitting to adhere to such social norms.

Literally when Almorra offers the PC the spot of Pact Marshall and is declined.

Quote

Taimi: What did I hear? You're not in the Pact anymore? Wait. What do I call you? Pooh-bah?

<Character name>: Uh, no. How about we just stick with commander for now?

General Almorra Soulkeeper: Technically, it's a title for life, so you're welcome to it.

The PC adopted the title as an easy thing to call themselves for friends/contacts. 

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

26 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Human Mesmer and necromancers' magic also came from the 6 gods.  Other than Grenth' priests, Risen's death magic is quite different than Grenth as well.

And once again, there you go with headcanon that is not actual lore in any way, shape, or form.

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

22 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Do you see Risen use god magic unless they are priests/spellcasters in their life?

Novels don't show them use god magic at all, unlike humans. I think it's fair to call it fact.

Novels don't use the term "god magic" for anything the characters do. God magic is more of avatar stuff, not anything a mesmer or necromancer can do. The term "God magic" isn't even used ingame that much either.

Also, legendaries aren't automatically more powerful then any other weapon. Claw of Khan Ur is just a very historically important dagger, not a super-weapon.

[Why did Orr lose to the Charr]

Headcanon =/= Canon.

 

[Why the namechange of Commander?]

1 hour ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

If you think that SotO is poorly written, then obviously you have never encountered the IBS. In the comparsion with (especially the scrapped second half) the IBS, the SotO is a masterpiece.

Why are you purposefully misquoting my post to make it as if I said that, when I did not?

[Any idea where Saldistead may be?]

1 hour ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

Yeah. Since the scrap of the IBS several retcons of Jormag or Primordus could be seen. I am only waiting when those two will be literally deleted.

What?

[[Spoilers]Astral Ward and Magic]

9 hours ago, CETheLucid.3964 said:

R'tchikk is also a special case of asuran mad scientists make a skritt super smart. She's not able to relate to her own people anymore, follow their chitters or commune with the skritt hive mind. She's exceptional in her own right and why she's ended up in the Astral Ward. The wizards, the ward, and her good charr friend are her family now.

That she's with them and even appointed as a curator suggests she's more than a bit proficient.

A few things here. She is a case of an Intelligence boost by questionable science, however nothing at all says she cannot communicate with Skritt in their native tongue. Just that she wasn't fitting in and went her own way.

Also Skritt don't have a hive mind at all. That isn't how they work. They are also able to function well as lone individuals, it's just they can be distracted very easily. We do see singular skritt used as couriers.

[Any idea where Saldistead may be?]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

But the very fact that Frode traveled to and fro on multiple occasions shown that they weren't really that far apart and distant, and "in the far north with winter storms so fierce they cannot effectively travel north" is stated to be the situation in Bitterfrost Frontier and even Frostgorge Sound - the former being called "the far north" by NPCs. So "the far north" != "only the Far Shiverpeaks".

I'll point out that nothing says Frode has traveled to and from that location many times. Infact, it almost sounds like a rare trip with the explicit mention how the place has grown apart from them, and is in Isolation.

The place is described as being "A few weeks away" after a week a travel. 

[Any idea where Saldistead may be?]

7 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Jora's Keep was a Vigil outpost maintained by access from Grothmar Valley, though. It wasn't an old homestead that was largely independent and an actual place of living.

And while the Still Waters Speaking group is a weird situation given that's the heart of Jormag's territory which shouldn't be possible given icebrood mindless hostility, they got stranded there while fleeing Jormag's flight south and got stuck from the water freezing up. They hadn't even been there a full generation, seeing how the (former) Honor and Claw weren't elected there by all indication; and above that, they're in isolation, cut off from the outside, only very recently making contact with Jora's Keep. Arguably, Still Waters Speaking only survived because Jormag passed them by and settled near Bitterfrost Frontier before Braham's group forced it to go to northern Drizzlewood for narrative demand.

This is a far cry from a homestead of generations that has constant contact and trade with Hoelbrak by land route. That'd be like saying there's a village in SE Orr that's fully inhabited by Orrians with constant trade with Mount Maelstrom until it got wiped out by something not Zhaitan or Risen.

Hoelbrek didn't have constant contact though, It's mentioned they had grown apart and distant. They are also "In the far north" with the winter storms being so fierce they cannot effectively travel north.

We know the lodge is to the west of a lake, as that is where Sejm lead them before his death. So it could easily be on the other side of the water that spawned out of Drakkar Lake.

[Any idea where Saldistead may be?]

59 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So "far north" != "Far Shiverpeaks". It's just... decently north, really. So Saldistead could be west of Frostgorge, or a bit east of Bitterfrost, before Jormag moved in, since this was about 20-25 years ago.

 

And Braham left his guild around Jora's Keep, which was the Vigils northernmost outpost. So it's not like we haven't had confirmation of people being that far north before Jormag was put to sleep in season 3.

Also we had the Kodan group in Bjora, who were native/stranded in that area north of Bitterfrost.