RUNICBLACK.7630

Cyninja I think you are missing the point of this entire discussion which is that due to how Anet has attempted to address the issues with FB, which while they have made some adjustments to the class and it abilities they have also heavily adjusted the Core Guardian. You comments about FB's in every AT or in every WvW Zerg are exactly the point , you hear it even the higher tier PvE be it raids, fractals or even the tougher strike missions if you come on with something other than an FB you will get kicked. The argument for so many of these past patches was to increase diversity but all it has done is exactly the opposite.I'm not saying that the Guardian is alone in this situation of being pigeonholed in basically one build but this has been a problem for awhile.As a side note your using Tourneys to compare them to Solo Que PvP which are not the same thing, tourney team players often work together regularly whereas Solo Que it's a total mixed bag on any kind of team work.

Using PvE damage as comparative to either of the competitive game modes is just flawed(particularly when the whole discussion at its start was stated to be that it was focused on Solo Que PvP only). In PvE you fighting against either a static foe or a scripted one often with very predictable patterns where as in competitive it is a individual that while sometimes they can be predictable often they aren't. On the WvW side the main reason for the high representation of Guardian(mainly FB's) the high output of group Stability, Quickness, and the situational Retaliation(for AOE happy foes), I'm not saying we are worthless on damage per say but we do get out done by quite a few other classes , on the PvP side I have question that opinion somewhat (with regard to our level of representation on the different tiers) in that many(but not all)of the same classes that were over representing in all of the Mid levels and Top levels before the previous patch are still there after the patch which tends to point the fact that the patch didn't shake things up as much as it should hav and that it's application of damping of damage etc was rather uneven at best to put it mildly.

Just curious in what type of game mode do you play a Guardian(PvE, PvP, WvW and if PvP what Skill Rating have held and for how many seasons) because some of the players that are discussing these issues with the guardian(not myself because I'm just a filthy casual ) have played a Guardian in most every PvP season and held Plat tiers most every season so if you are implying that they don't know how to play by what standard are able to support your opinions .Mind you I'm not attacking you I am actually curious because if you can actually back up your argument with other than circular arguments and show that you are someone that does do Competitive PvP with some actual Rating regularly for multiple seasons I'm fairly sure most people would be interested in intelligent discussion.So please feel free to jump in .

Honestly they have gutted so much of the Core Guardian trying get a handle on each of the Elites as they came out that not only have they made Core Guardian an absolute joke but they have as usual over reacted in their approach on the Elites so much so that I have shelved my various Guardians(3) for anything in the competitive side of the game be it PvP or WvW. I'm hoping that at some point they come to the realization of how much of a hole that they have put the Guardian and our various Elites in but I'm not holding my breath.

Again this comes back to the issue of the trait in Virtues trait line Master of Consecrations that reduces the reduces the recharge time by 20% and adds 2 seconds to Consecrations duration thereby giving you duration of 4 seconds. I'm sure that this was planned on becoming a Consecration until they saw that it would run afoul of the trait and looking through most of the skills 2 to 3 second limit seems to be a hard fast red line limit for Block type skills particularly (and that's without adding in the fact that it would also benefit the party). Yes I know it does make prefect sense but until they can come up with a redesign that is worth the time and money I doubt we'll be seeing this change anytime soon.

To be blunt I've been hoping that we were going back to Cantha from the first time a rumor of the first expac leaked out and again for expac 2 and everytime it was really up in the air for any of the Living Story Eps so to finally see something like this is really gratifying for me . I've always loved the art style overall and I'm hoping that we can see a guild hall that does it justice , even back in GW1 my favorite guild halls were more themed after Cantha style.

If they were to lower it to 150 Vitality they should also lower the trait from Grand Master to either Adept or Master being as there are already precedents with other traits in other classes giving either 120 as a Adept and 180 as a Master (note all of these other traits also give an additional beneficial bonus of some kind)and another option is to give a bonus to Vitality based off of a percentage value from another Stat instead of a flat base number which again there are existing examples of with other traits on other classes already in the game.

Actually the health gain from this trait takes 11, 645 to 14, 645 which is still below baseline middle health pool tier which is 15,922 (without any traits) and nowhere near top health pool tier which 19,212 (also without traits) so to call this tankish is really pretty laughable. I would also strongly suggest that you check out the other classes traits that also give additional Vitality before you make comments as to if Force of Will is over powered ( note most of these are not even GrandMaster traits ).https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vitality

While I have my doubts that they would do this, one way they could address this without a huge change would be to change the boon on Symbol of Energy(LB4) from Vigor to Quickness and granted this would require the DH to drop the symbol on themselves to gain the boon but the Quickness would lower the cast time on all of their skills (Deflecting Shot and True Shot would be about 1/2 second versus the 3/4 while you had Quickness and Hunter's Ward be about 2 seconds versus the 2 3/4 seconds) and actually this would require more timing and situational awareness to maintain (along with some Concentration and the Writ of Persistence trait if you want to try to maintain close to 100% uptime) but overall I think it would the easiest fix. One of the problems that I see with the option is it could run into to same complaint that was brought up against Feel My Wrath in that it could cause Guardian to dominate in Raid settings for the party Quickness access and while I can see that side of the argument I still have a mixed opinion on it being as raids had been dominated by other classes for quite a long time without any changes being made and honestly the access to the Quickness with this option would require the players to stay within the 180 to 240 radius of the Symbol. So overall while I am not saying this is a prefect fix it is at least a possible one.

This has been brought up before and the problem is the Master of Consecration trait increasing the duration by 2 seconds which would obviously leave it with a 4 second block which is pretty much a non starter, the longest block is 3 seconds to my knowledge. Granted thematically it makes sense but the impact of its execution would be problematic.

Stuck at work , if anybody has checked since patch . I'm interested in the exact details on Inspiring Virtue which replaced Virtuous Solace(only details is that increases damage after activating a virtue but no details by how much) and Furious Focus which replaced Binding Jeopardy(only details are that inflicts Vulnerability on any foes while you have Fury but no details on how much Vulnerability).

PvE number. Were you asking what PvE numbers are like or implying that those PvE numbers? Because if it is the latter those damage numbers were refering to a Champion Tower Lord so as far as I can tell that has to be WvW

Hmm I'm not entirely certain why you are bothering here with your argument because I was just going with sarcasm and I wasn't arguing for or against any class's viability . To be blunt I have played every class(including their Elites) in most of the different game modes (PvE , PvP , and WvW) to varing degrees(To be honest with varying degrees of success) and every class has their strengths and weakness and every class has gone through their up and downs due various changes to mechanics and balance patches so for myself when so many players go with these blanket statements that class XYZ is over powered and its been always been buffed while "their" class is always getting nerfed I just find that laughable and have make fun of it (yes I have my bias but I try to be honest with myself on it.)Hopefully that is a little clearer where I was coming from.

Sarcasm? No course the OP is totally serious , after all they don't have any Blocks ( Staff 3:Warding Rift, Shield 5: Crystal Hibernation) or Evades (Hammer 3:Phase Smash, Staff 5: Surge of the Mists, Sword 3: Unrelenting Assault) and they have the LOWEST health pool (Rev has a base of 15,922 health where as the lowest health pool is 11,645 and it belongs to the Elementalist , Thief and the Guardian) I mean how could anybody not see what terrible disadvantage they have working against them it's so totally unfair.... Sorry I couldn't help myself with all the back and forth from so many people about this "Class is Overpowered!" and then it's "No this Class is Overpowered!" etc. etc..

That would be really helpful. While I'm not sure if they would go for it, but an interesting option to replace Retaliation on Symbol of Wrath would be Taunt in that while it doesn't do any damage by itself it would help keep opponents close while Great Sword 5 is in effect and obviously it is a CC so you'll the benefit from those traits that proc when you disable a opponent also( Glacial Heart, Stoic Demeanor, and the new change to Heavy Light). Now obviously if they did change it to Taunt we would also see them drastically reduce the Symbols damage coefficient like they have to must if not all of the skills that have a CC component, this of course would change the dynamic of Great Sword weapon play in the game significantly but depending on how everything worked out it could still be interesting.

While I'm not what I would call thrilled with some of the various changes , the fact that so many of the same caliber of changes are happening across the board to all the classes leads to a wait an see attitude. On Stand Your Ground the Cool Down increase I find inconvenient but not that problematic and with regard to dropping the number of allies effected from 10 to 5 to be honest in my personal opinion outside of Raids I don't think having something effect over 5 individuals should not even be available and maybe not even there but that is just my viewpoint. Hammer: Mighty Blow ok honestly I do think jumping the Cool Down from 4 to 10 seconds is a pretty extreme (6 or even an 8 sec would have been easier to accept) but to be fair it isn't unprecedented already on skills presently or other skills in this patch (for reference most number 2 skills CD are between 5 to 8 seconds but there already several number 2 skills already with a CD of 10 and Rev's Coalesence of Ruin is getting the same change to it's Cool Down) . While don't entirely agree with your opinion I do appreciate your viewpoint and thanks for responding.

These are just some personal observations being as there are so many changes coming soon that for most of it I'm going with a wait and see opinion but that being said there are a few things that either weren't touched on or were and again just from my personal viewpoint either a case of a missed opportunity or going in the wrong direction .Hammer skills : Zealot's Embrace ?!? As has been said before by others why have it as a single target (yes it's piercing and can potentially hit 5 people in a row but none of our followup atttacks take advantage of that with exception of LB's True Shot)with a 1200 range and it's only a 2 second immobilize, and then we really don't have alot of ways to close with the target, possible changes bring the range down to 300 or 600 and make it a multiple target arc this way it syncs up to Mighty Blow ( this doesn't increase attacks damage etc it just makes more sense for the weapon ). Staff: Symbol of Swiftness it is still completely counterintuitive in that you create a Symbol to give yourself Swiftness as your moving but you have stop and stand in it to gain anything greater than 4 seconds(and it is entirely possibly to not gain any Swiftness while passing thru if your timing is bad) This should give you at least 4 seconds (or higher) guaranteed irrespective of where the Symbol is placed(or if it is at least cast at your present location because presently you can cast at your location but before you receive any benefit your outside of the Symbol and receive nothing ) , again this in no way changes overall offensive damage just it's utility and it would make it on par with other classes speed buff weapon the Warhorn. Focus: Shield of Wrath this skill while it does decent damage and is a blast finisher is still more controlled by your opponents than by the Guardian ( in the sense of blocks attacks versus doing damage) if this was changed so that it was triggerable not unlike the Guardian Shield skills than the Guardian would have the trade off decision of defensive versus offensive. Torch: Zealot's Fire we still can't seem to get this skill to hit worth anything at any range etc.. So why not dump the Range and make it's effects Point Blank AOE(as a trade off for the lose of range give it an extra benefit of some kind maybe Unblockable or possible an extra Ammo charge just a thought). Longbow: Deflecting Shot it's already been mentioned by others that changing the cast to 3/4 of a second is just to long for a skill that really needs to be directed , 1/2 second we could probably work with but 3/4 just makes it to easy to avoid and leaves the DH doing a obvious tell for to long.Still to many LB skills rooting the DH , the DH needs greater mobility to really ever even bother to use the LB and while it would great to see more access to Swiftness or Quickness I doubt we will see those anytime soon . Healing Skills : the adjustments for the various classes with regard to Cool Down and Healing Coefficient seems kind of uneven with some classes just getting CD increases and some getting hit with both CD's increases and Lowering the HC's but it's going to be hard to determine the impact until the patch is out. Utilities:Hallowed Ground vs Stand Your Ground: Ok some people really need to talk to each other, I understand bring SYG back down to 5 targets from 10 and even increasing its Cool Down but if the goal from previous patches was to increase the use of Hallowed Ground that just got shot in the foot with its Cool Down increase to 60 seconds if they had left it at 45 second players might have at least considered it (personal opinion it either needs Retaliation changed to something else like maybe Resistance(granted that maybe to powerful a possible lower key option could be either Protection or Fury) or possibly apply a Condition on foes like Vulnerability or Weakness instead of Retaliation (or in addition to Retaliation but I doubt Anet would go for it). Bow of Truth: I'm not sure how badly this got dropped but when they cut the healing coefficient from .15 to .05 I suspect this skills useful days are numbered. Hammer of Wisdom: being it's only really use now is for CC (assuming you can land a hit , I've never had great luck in a PvP situation, I've had better odds with SoJ for some reason) there really isn't any reason for this skill to have one less Ammo charge than the Sword and the Shield (arguably depending on how much the Bow of Truth has been weaken on it's healing capabilities the same could be said for the Bow) Dragon's Maw: got nuked pretty sure I will not be bothering with that skill anytime soon. Wrath of Justice: Lesser Signet of Wrath : Being as the Immobilize duration was dropped from 3 seconds to 1 second could we possible see the Cool Down dropped also so we might see it being more available when Virtue of Justice active is triggered(which can happen much more often than every 25 seconds) Everything is just matter of wait and see how is in actually game play .Granted this is just my viewpoint.P.S. As a side thought or more accurately a question there are some Grand Master Guardian traits that have been languishing for a while and I was wondering if anybody actually ever uses them and for what.Radiance: Prefect Inscriptions:not alot of call for Signets presently that I've seen outside of Bane Sigil in Raid or Frac's or maybe Mercy and Courage on some team stuff but it still does make very useful compared to the other choices.Valor:Tenacious Defense: One second reduction on Courage Cool Down for ever block from Aegis when your looking at anywhere from 45 to 75 seconds feels ridiculously underwhelmingHonor : Pure of Voice: Shouts while used(Stand Your Ground as a case in point) are not at the forefront as far usage that I've seen and Cleansing only one Condition per Shout isn't really effective presently when you have other options.Virtues: Battle Presence: I never used it and even in team oriented activities it feels very lackluster.Thank you for any input or you opinions.

With regard to the Instant/Passive Traits Cool Down increase, examples such as Warrior's Defy Pain, The Last Stand, Ranger's Stone Form and Shared Anguish, and Guardian's Hunter's Determination while I do think it's a great idea to push rewarding good timing and punishing poor timing on use of skills all of these type of traits aren't generally controlled by the players as to when they trigger and in making the Cool Down so high (300 seconds = 5 minutes) this basically removes the usefulness of these in any average PvP setting ( the match is either generally decided by the time these cool downs would end) , if after due consideration it is still felt that the cool down needs to increased place it at 120 seconds versus the 300 seconds so as to allow these traits to still have some bearing in the PvP setting.

This wasn't a nerf , it was correcting an exploit on swapping traps.

Yes it does hit three , but it's ability to target and connect doesn't work out as well as the sword for some reason, I think its strike speed or animation is slower but I can't prove it.

I like the concepts you have here, it definitely fills a hole in the Guardian option playbook. Couple things I can mention that be helpful additions or might not if you don't mind. I definitely like the attack skills of the sword (I've always felt the various skills that triggered the chain visual should have had access to torment through a trait or something as an offset to our lack of mobility but that never seemed to be something they wanted to give the class) I also like your design on the utilities and the traits overall without being to unwieldy or overpowering generally very good use of defensive design there mixing Aegis and Blind One is on the Major Master: Where light aura reduces damage by 10% is that just on direct damage or is it also on condition damage(personal opinion is it should be on both , when they changed the light and dark aura to reduce condition damage and dark got a 20% but light only got 10% which I thought was wrong when you consider that dark also triggers torment and light gets retaliation) I don't see it on the skills : Light Block or Holy Leap so assume your not including an evade on these skills but I want to certain , am I correct? Another idea I was thinking about but I'm not sure how well it would work, is with the changes to conditions and they became a big play option in various game modes I've looking at Retaliation and feeling it missing something to address heavy increase in condition attacks. My idea is another boon called Retribution that functions like Retaliation but for conditions in that it doesn't prevent the conditions from being applied but everytime a condition is applied on someone with Retribution the same condition is applied back on the attacker(1 stack only). I don't think that everytime you gain Retaliation that should also get Retribution but I do think some skills should give both and you should be able to gain access to via a combo field/finisherThe reason I bring this up is it sounds like this class concept really fits well with it potentially, just idea I've kicking around.Thank you for posting your concepts.

I'm not holding my breath either for a Elite but would you mind posting a write up if you have one Otto? I for one would enjoy seeing it.Thank you a head of time if are willing to.