Trickery changes

[Herr der Ringe.3251]

Just watched the lates elite spec reveals, and once again find myself thinking the same thing as every expansion:

It would be really cool to run two traitlines with this elite spec, rather than always picking trickery!

The two traits "Kleptomaniac" and "Preparedness" in trickery are a really important part to thiefs initiative management, which makes this trait line almost a must pick for most non PvE content.

Almost every build for PvP or WvW always runs trickery, and I think it is a real shame, because it makes it so that some synergies between other trait lines are often underexplored.

I really wish that both those traits could just be part of baseline thief, to allow for more freedom in traitline choice, rather than just basing it on needing initiative.

I'd love to try some weird sword/dagger spectre with shadow arts and acrobatics, but I think I'd just run out of initiative too fast.

 

Maybe they can change this, and give trickery something else, it's already a good traitline without the initiative management, but with it it's just too hard to give up.

[Zenakou.7853]

Yep, I was thinking the same thing. I hate how they keep making trickery be mandatory for every build. It's so annoying and frustrating. If you use sp/d combo like Cal was showing off to try to pump out the heals he was showing you're going to run out ini pretty quickly. I face palmed when he confirmed the reduce ini pool. 

[SeTect.5918]

2 hours ago, Herr der Ringe.3251 said:

I'd love to try some weird sword/dagger spectre with shadow arts and acrobatics, but I think I'd just run out of initiative too fast.

 

Maybe they can change this, and give trickery something else, it's already a good traitline without the initiative management, but with it it's just too hard to give up.

I also see this Problem. I planned to run pistol/dagger and 2nd weapon Set scepter/pistol. But atm i dont see pistol/dagger working. 

Core weapons cost far too much initiative for this trade off. For example using shortbow 5 in pvp or wvw will kill ALL your initiative if not using trickery. And that just for a shadowstep. 

Skill 3 of pistol/dagger wont even be really usable in pve. Atm in deadeye i can use it without problems 2-3 times. (Shadow strike, 3x repeater) shadow strike costs 4 and repeater 3 each. Makes 13 initiative. Fine for deadeye. Problematic to even do it 1x like that for specter.

We can also see that scepter skills have reduced ini costs. 

So i agree that it should be included in core, except the 150 expertise obv. That can stay in the trait paired with another effect. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Burial.1958]

Thiefs asked for years that they make the Ini from prep baseline. Without it the class isn't playable because the costs are so high now. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Grebcol.5984

[Jumpel.3972]

I'm fine with Kleptomaniac stay in Trick but Preparedness.... even in the e-spec stream they said Specter will pick Trick because of it

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

They seem to be making the auto attack stronger to compensate while using the other skills way more situationally, with this in mind the recent changes to shortbow make a lot of sense. Relying on the auto while generating shroud through ini is gonna potentially throttle shroud generation though, being starved of shroud is the other thing that could make or break the spec.  

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

5 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

They seem to be making the auto attack stronger to compensate while using the other skills way more situationally, with this in mind the recent changes to shortbow make a lot of sense. Relying on the auto while generating shroud through ini is gonna potentially throttle shroud generation though, being starved of shroud is the other thing that could make or break the spec.  

That auto attack won't last long

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

2 hours ago, Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

That auto attack won't last long

Yeah, true. I can see a lot of spectre being nerfed in the next few months lol

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

1 hour ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Yeah, true. I can see a lot of spectre being nerfed in the next few months lol

Yeah... considering they nerfed thief's auto attacks because thieves weren't using their skills as often as Anet wanted... wonder why.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

[ixon.2496]

Honestly since they are giving everyone mobility now, might as well reduce the ini cost of sb 5

[SeTect.5918]

On 10/24/2021 at 3:03 AM, ixon.2496 said:

Honestly since they are giving everyone mobility now, might as well reduce the ini cost of sb 5

+Honestly since they are giving specter just 8 ini, might as well reduce ini cost of every core weapon

Seriously. On some weapons you cant even use 1 skill properly in pve. Pistol/Dagger skill 3 does shadow strike and then u tp away and u get enough time to do 3x repeater. Not possible with specter. Shadow stike costs 4 ini and 1x repeater costs 3 ini. Makes 13 ini for 1x using this skill properly. with quickness you can even use repeater 4x. But what do i say here, with specter u can use it only 2x if u r lucky.
That reduced ini holds a lot of problems for core weapons already in pve. Not even talking about WvW and PvP here.

[Singularity.1486]

On 10/24/2021 at 9:03 AM, ixon.2496 said:

Honestly since they are giving everyone mobility now, might as well reduce the ini cost of sb 5

SB 5 costs 8 init in PvP/WvW which is pretty much all of Specter init w/o Trickery line and you usually travel way less than 900 range due to the slow projectile speed... Not to mention shadowstep is pretty much broken in WvW.

 

Every other class is just better at closing the distance now sadly 😢

[Singularity.1486]

On 10/23/2021 at 4:58 AM, Herr der Ringe.3251 said:

Just watched the lates elite spec reveals, and once again find myself thinking the same thing as every expansion:

It would be really cool to run two traitlines with this elite spec, rather than always picking trickery!

The two traits "Kleptomaniac" and "Preparedness" in trickery are a really important part to thiefs initiative management, which makes this trait line almost a must pick for most non PvE content.

 

Lead Attacks Is also the reason why Trickery is core in most PvE since it gives up to 15% strike dmg, condi dmg, and life steal dmg per init spent which is a significant dps boost.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

7 minutes ago, Singularity.1486 said:

Lead Attacks Is also the reason why Trickery is core in most PvE since it gives up to 15% strike dmg, condi dmg, and life steal dmg per init spent which is a significant dps boost.

While Lead Attacks is a strong trait, it would be okay if Trickery is like mendatory for DPS, but Preparedness and to lesser degree Kleptomaniac make it almost mendatory for every thief build, even a support Specter which is the main design flaw

[Herr der Ringe.3251]

Basically, higher ini pool from preparedness is only important for large cost combos, like spamming a dps burst during a window, while the ini gain from klepto is important for getting skills back faster.

I think that klepto is probably more important generally speaking, because they might want to make spectre not use certain skills as much.

They might be trying to have spectre not use shortbow for ports, giving it a lot of ports in other skills instead, which I think could be good, since sb is also a very overused weapon in PvP/WvW, just like trickery is. I do see the problem for PvE though, where things like repeater spam are pretty important.

The fact that scepter skills cost less makes sense with lower ini pool, but it makes it so that other weapons are much harder to use. But it does feel like they tried to prevent things like sb requirement for sb5, and dp stealth spam. That might be alright, if they at least let them get the ini back faster, e.g. by making klepto baseline.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Herr der Ringe.3251