Untamed Hammer damage is OK on the Golem.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

11 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I think you miss the context here. 

You cannot take speccs with utility and give them 45k DPS. 

Then hand the pure DPS 28k DPS. 

And expect a raid leader to say "weeeellll we don't "need" 40k+ DPS". You will bench the ranger and take the 45k DPS option. That's just factual. 

Ontop of this soulbeast does 37k DPS. Another pure DPS option of the ranger.. like honestly. Your trolling your raid if your gonna intentionally do 9k less DPS. 

Sure if you make every pure DPS do 28k DPS and bring speccs with buffs/support do 20k DPS. Then yes 28k DPS is fine. 

But on that level your argument is to litterally nerf every build and specc in the game and coming in EoD by over half of their current DPS in some cases. 

Which ones realistically more likely. 

Even if they bring the other EoD speccs down to 35k-40k DPS. No ones taking a 28k ranger over them and the specc is actually quite abit of work to play with the quantity of button increases and more going on there. 

There's tons of speccs that will just do alot more DMG. With alot less effort. 

The only current 28k DPS build we have is barrier / quickness scrapper... Which is litterally bringing perma quickness and 3k barrier per second. 

You believe untamed and scrapper are in the same league?  We are doing the damage of a non-meta support build. And being out dps'd by the rest of them.

I'm sorry but compared to the current elites DPS and EoD elites 28k is too low for a pure DPS. Now yes they can nerf everything else down to balance this but either we need to go up or they need to go down.

This argument is silly. People don't focus on high numbers. People focus on what will get them into groups. You don't need 45k DPS sure.yoy don't need 36k DPS either. But here's the fact

Time = money. 

Higher the number, the faster the boss dies. These kills get uploaded. A meta is created, people won't accept non-meta options. People are forced to reroll. 

Numbers don't matter

What matters is community perception, and if your a pure DPS equaling supports in DPS your unwanted and the community won't invite you regardless. 

Don't act like this is a EoD specc problem. 

There are firebrand dragonhunter mesmer builds doing 40k +. Soulbeast does 37k DPS even 

Why is soulbeast a pure DPS doing 37k DPS, while untamed a pure DPS is doing 28k? Where is the logic in releasing a weaker form of their current elite specc. 

I'd love to see the day where 30k is the highest DPS capable. That's be great. But it won't happen. We are gonna see 40k dpsers. And as a pure DPS untamed needs to be up there too.

 

I dunno where you were going with all this. I never said to add utility to DPS specs. I said if all builds did the same damage, the one with the most utility would be used. Untamed is obviously not a DPS spec. Not every eSpec needs to top the DPS meter. 

You do not need to be able to reach meta builds stated benchmarks, or even run meta builds. They're all so freakin boring anyway. Haven't you ever just ran a weird build with a group of mates to have fun? Like, oh I dunno, autoattack only for Dhuum or a squad of all condi minion reapers or Vale with all Bow wielding Rangers? 

If people play just to get loot, it doesn't matter how fast it is completed or what builds are used, they'll never be happy because they are treating it like a job, not recreation.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

8 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If your standard is hitting enrage then it is quite poor. Also if a squad is 10 people and 3+ people are support (druid, CQB/quickness scrapper, alac , banner, etc) you're going to be breaking walls on Gorseval and most PUG groups don't even want to deal with that and would rather kick the ranger running untamed instead of soulbeast... You're also not accounting for split phases where you do zero damage to the boss.

As far as easy rotation, berserker is more or less F1 spam,  staff daredevil does ~22K auto, a scrapper with grenade kit (so equivalent to single weapon swap but without 9s cooldown), reaper camping shroud when lifeforce is not an issue, or a holo with photon forge and running PBM are far easier than Untamed because of the random cooldown added onto Unleash (F5).

If your average pDPS does ~34-37K (Berserker, holo, radiance DH, daredevil, tempest, soulbeast, DPS scrapper, pChrono, power ren, reaper, etc) what you're suggesting is to nerf every single DPS spec in the game when that has been the case since roughly 2018. That isn't likely.

See https://web.archive.org/web/20181007173006/https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

That's akin to saying everyone in the world is using a standard for compressive strength of a structural steel so we need to lower the standard because we made a new steel alloy.

I think people always look at the upper ceiling when it comes to DPS, forgetting that there is a floor as well. Like, it doesn't matter if it takes a couple extra minutes to kill something, as long as it gets killed. The floor for enrage is 5000 dps per person. Even a druid can exceed that by quite a bit. 

And like I said, not every spec needs to top a DPS meter, even if they did, the one with the most utility would be brought then and that would not be Untamed. Yes, if the average DPS spec is 34-37k, then those EoD ones that are doing 10k above that should be nerfed down to that point, it is just ludicrous power creep.

And bro, we had a few days of Beta with Untamed. Just calm down. It is obviously not going to be a DPS spec so just forget that, but the numbers will be adjusted and there may be big changes coming, who knows. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Infusion.7149]

22 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

I think people always look at the upper ceiling when it comes to DPS, forgetting that there is a floor as well. Like, it doesn't matter if it takes a couple extra minutes to kill something, as long as it gets killed. The floor for enrage is 5000 dps per person. Even a druid can exceed that by quite a bit. 

And like I said, not every spec needs to top a DPS meter, even if they did, the one with the most utility would be brought then and that would not be Untamed. Yes, if the average DPS spec is 34-37k, then those EoD ones that are doing 10k above that should be nerfed down to that point, it is just ludicrous power creep.

And bro, we had a few days of Beta with Untamed. Just calm down. It is obviously not going to be a DPS spec so just forget that, but the numbers will be adjusted and there may be big changes coming, who knows. We'll just have to wait and see.

You don't even need to test it if your math is good ; the payoff on hitting 5 targets as opposed to 3 with a hammer generally isn't there unless you're in openworld (or VWW but this will be a failure in its current state). Then again maul hits 5 targets on Greatsword while being 3s cooldown with alacrity so that's not even that noteworthy.
The modifiers don't add up , +300 ferocity merged = 20% crits after all even before bonuses such as Twice as Vicious (10% strike or condi damage) or Furious Strength (15% strike damage).

The loss of all pet automatic skill use means 2K DPS from pets when I tested. That means somehow you need to make up the modifiers of soulbeast with 2K DPS from the pet while also having a 15% damage penalty while in Unleash Pet. That explains why there is a 33K benchmark existing for condi Untamed using 2 condition weapons while a condi soulbeast achieves that just camping shortbow (so far easier).

Right now the only reason you'd run it is you need large amounts of CC if it's actually rebalanced (right now it has less CC than soulbeast) as well as spotter. So probably W4 Samarog or W2 Slothasor. It isn't a fractal spec due to the exposed changes which make condi immensely ahead.

It doesn't boon people in any appreciable manner so what you're saying is it is not a DPS, well it isn't a support or heal spec so basically useless because even the main point of it (CC) is lower than soulbeast.

Once again, if you are using enrage as the bar, expect to be kicked often. The average DPS spec does 34-37K on the GOLEM (which is something people strive for in the burst phase not in split). Many groups that can't DPS to skip the walls on Gorseval specifically just disband rather than deal with low DPS.

If I want to play memes I would join a meme group and so would other people. Ever played in 10 rev, 10 necro, 10 engi, or 10 eles? People will join memes when they want to meme not for a weekly clear.

P.S. the average druid does ~2K DPS on Gorseval overall https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/gors

Edited November 2, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

7 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You don't even need to test it if your math is good ; the payoff on hitting 5 targets as opposed to 3 with a hammer generally isn't there unless you're in openworld (or VWW but this will be a failure in its current state). Then again maul hits 5 targets on Greatsword while being 3s cooldown with alacrity so that's not even that noteworthy.
The modifiers don't add up , +300 ferocity merged = 20% crits after all even before bonuses such as Twice as Vicious (10% strike or condi damage) or Furious Strength (15% strike damage).

The loss of all pet automatic skill use means 2K DPS from pets when I tested. That means somehow you need to make up the modifiers of soulbeast with 2K DPS from the pet while also having a 15% damage penalty while in Unleash Pet. That explains why there is a 33K benchmark existing for condi Untamed using 2 condition weapons while a condi soulbeast achieves that just camping shortbow (so far easier).

Right now the only reason you'd run it is you need large amounts of CC if it's actually rebalanced (right now it has less CC than soulbeast) as well as spotter. So probably W4 Samarog or W2 Slothasor. It isn't a fractal spec due to the exposed changes which make condi immensely ahead.

It doesn't boon people in any appreciable manner so what you're saying is it is not a DPS, well it isn't a support or heal spec so basically useless because even the main point of it (CC) is lower than soulbeast.

Once again, if you are using enrage as the bar, expect to be kicked often. The average DPS spec does 34-37K on the GOLEM (which is something people strive for in the burst phase not in split). Many groups that can't DPS to skip the walls on Gorseval specifically just disband rather than deal with low DPS.

If I want to play memes I would join a meme group and so would other people. Ever played in 10 rev, 10 necro, 10 engi, or 10 eles? People will join memes when they want to meme not for a weekly clear.

P.S. the average druid does ~2K DPS on Gorseval overall https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/gors

What is your actual point?

[Infusion.7149]

6 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

What is your actual point?

The entire premise of your thread is 100% wrong.
First you stated that it did more DPS than soulbeast.
Second, you stated "one weapon being better than another is not realistic"but hammer fails even at being better at CC.
Third you stated 28K "isn't that bad" when it pretty much is support chrono/quickness scrapper levels and below alac ren. The bar for being kicked is typically sub alac ren DPS.
Forth you stated "everything can be beaten at 28K DPS" when that is a golem number.

Do you even have a log for your rotation?

Edited November 2, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The entire premise of your thread is 100% wrong.
First you stated that it did more DPS than soulbeast.
Second, you stated "one weapon being better than another is not realistic"but hammer fails even at being better at CC.
Third you stated 28K "isn't that bad" when it pretty much is support chrono/quickness scrapper levels and below alac ren. The bar for being kicked is typically sub alac ren DPS.
Forth you stated "everything can be beaten at 28K DPS" when that is a golem number.

Do you even have a log for your rotation?

Yes, I was able to do more damage with Untamed than Soulbeast.

I never stated that, I said "Wanting one weapon to be better than others is not realistic..." And I stand by that. If you create one weapon that is better than everything else, then that one is overtuned. Hammer at present is undertuned for CC and perhaps some damage and mobility. .

28k isn't that bad. If you are playing with people who will kick you for doing less than that, you need to find some friends.

And yes, if the build is capable of doing 28k on a golem, it is high enough damage for everything in the game. If you play it well.

I don't think people realise the vast levels of difference in skill in this game. The most hardcore people are doing 10x more damage than the most casual, so the point ANet will set for DPS checks is somewhere in the middle. If we take 40k as the upper and 4k as the lower, then the mid point is around 22k.

 

[Infusion.7149]

10 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Yes, I was able to do more damage with Untamed than Soulbeast.

I never stated that, I said "Wanting one weapon to be better than others is not realistic..." And I stand by that. If you create one weapon that is better than everything else, then that one is overtuned. Hammer at present is undertuned for CC and perhaps some damage and mobility. .

28k isn't that bad. If you are playing with people who will kick you for doing less than that, you need to find some friends.

And yes, if the build is capable of doing 28k on a golem, it is high enough damage for everything in the game. If you play it well.

I don't think people realise the vast levels of difference in skill in this game. The most hardcore people are doing 10x more damage than the most casual, so the point ANet will set for DPS checks is somewhere in the middle. If we take 40k as the upper and 4k as the lower, then the mid point is around 22k.

 

The average meta build does 15K auto attacking with full boons.
Last time I tested soulbeast does 18K on greatsword

Edit: at least you are willing to acknowledge that hammer is a disaster in its current state...

Edited November 2, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

18 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The average meta build does 15K auto attacking with full boons.
Last time I tested soulbeast does 18K on greatsword

Edit: at least you are willing to acknowledge that hammer is a disaster in its current state...

That doesn't change the fact that there is a factor of 10 difference between the top and bottom DPSers and the game is balanced around that. 

[Infusion.7149]

29 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

That doesn't change the fact that there is a factor of 10 difference between the top and bottom DPSers and the game is balanced around that. 

Arenanet said it was 10X difference between players not builds people run in the meta.
That's possible due to trait damage mods and Nomad/Minstrel/Soldier's gear

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

41 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Arenanet said it was 10X difference between players not builds people run in the meta.
That's possible due to trait damage mods and Nomad/Minstrel/Soldier's gear

And they balance the game more around players, not builds. Which is why some players can 5 man some content that was made for 10 people. That's also why some people can complete it much much faster than other groups. They don't look up Metabattle.com or some guilds benchmarks and say "ahh, well we can just make the DPS gate 40k now, since it is possible.".

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

39 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

They don't look up Metabattle.com or some guilds benchmarks and say "ahh, well we can just make the DPS gate 40k now, since it is possible.".

*remembering that time that Power Tempest had Air WH5 nerfed because it was the top damage done on the SC Large hit box benchmark for Tempest*
 

But seriously though, bottom line is that Untamed is literally useless in PvE. It serves no role and contributes in no meaningful way. Power Ranger baseline is non-existent in instances PvE content, and Untamed does nothing to benefit Condi builds. CC, the only thing it seems to focus on, is not a role in raids or fractals because everyone is supposed to bring some kind of CC, or it’s already covered by the support roles who also provide healing, boons, and actual dps.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

And they balance the game more around players, not builds. Which is why some players can 5 man some content that was made for 10 people. That's also why some people can complete it much much faster than other groups. They don't look up Metabattle.com or some guilds benchmarks and say "ahh, well we can just make the DPS gate 40k now, since it is possible.".

That's pretty naive as the goal of most people is to hit 80%+ of benchmark , which translates into performance in the encounters. If that weren't the case then DPS tempest wouldn't be randomly nerfed nor would power soulbeast (OWP should be reverted). Nobody in practice actually does great damage on tempest compared to other classes outside of large hitboxes.

The wingman site isn't a guild benchmark it is actual logs with a large sample size including failed runs,  not best runs. The fact that you think it is a benchmark shows how little you know about it.
Snowcrows/LuckyNoobs are benchmarks sites.

Might I remind you that your thread is titled "Untamed Hammer damage is OK on the golem" which is why I had issue with it.

Luckily most of the content creators and Arenanet partners also think Untamed is a failure so this thread has less weight.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

1 hour ago, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

*remembering that time that Power Tempest had Air WH5 nerfed because it was the top damage done on the SC Large hit box benchmark for Tempest*
 

But seriously though, bottom line is that Untamed is literally useless in PvE. It serves no role and contributes in no meaningful way. Power Ranger baseline is non-existent in instances PvE content, and Untamed does nothing to benefit Condi builds. CC, the only thing it seems to focus on, is not a role in raids or fractals because everyone is supposed to bring some kind of CC, or it’s already covered by the support roles who also provide healing, boons, and actual dps.

So, don't play it in PvE then. If it is better than Soulbeast at damage or better than Druid at support, then what are the point of those specs?

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That's pretty naive as the goal of most people is to hit 80%+ of benchmark , which translates into performance in the encounters. If that weren't the case then DPS tempest wouldn't be randomly nerfed nor would power soulbeast (OWP should be reverted). Nobody in practice actually does great damage on tempest compared to other classes outside of large hitboxes.

The wingman site isn't a guild benchmark it is actual logs with a large sample size including failed runs,  not best runs. The fact that you think it is a benchmark shows how little you know about it.
Snowcrows/LuckyNoobs are benchmarks sites.

Might I remind you that your thread is titled "Untamed Hammer damage is OK on the golem" which is why I had issue with it.

Luckily most of the content creators and Arenanet partners also think Untamed is a failure so this thread has less weight.

Who are these "most people"? I think you will find that "most people" in this game have never even been to the Special Forces Training Area, let alone practiced a raid rotation in order to get better at doing it.

I have no idea what the wingman site is, hence I never mentioned it at all.

Yes, and the Untamed Hammer damage IS OK on the golem. I didn't say "Untamed Hammer damage is the highest DPS in the game", I never said it was going to top out the DPS leaderboard. I said it was OK. It's right there in the title. People have been going on like it was doing literally zero damage but that is just not the case. 

Untamed being a failure has more to do with CDs, lack of well though out traits and synergy, a lack of mobility, condition cleanses, lack of CC on a CC centric spec, a lack of pet controls, a lack of pet functionality and poor aesthetics than it is to do with Hammer damage.

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

55 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

So, don't play it in PvE then. If it is better than Soulbeast at damage or better than Druid at support, then what are the point of those specs?

As the elite stands right now, the only situations it currently tries to work in is in small group fighting, such as center node in PvP or small group roaming in WvW, and that’s kinda it. Wanting an elite spec to be playable outside of very specific niches and scenarios in only 2/3 of the game modes is not something to write off. We’re getting a new elite for the first time in 4 years, and won’t get another one for at least another 2. There should be more impact an elite has than trying to give Rangers a new PvP or roaming build, areas where we already have competitive builds and options to work with. Even in PvE there’s still so many roles we cannot contribute to. We provide no boon support, referring to alacrity and quickness. Soulbeast works as a meta dps build, but power for example only has one damage profile: burst damage that requires you to stand still for long periods of time. Even just for damage there’s niches that Untamed *could* fill, such as sustained damage rather than burst, which it is entirely unable to do. Having to go 6+ years without a new dps playstyle while literally every other class does would be so unbelievable disrespectful and disappointing.

 

13 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Who are these "most people"? I think you will find that "most people" in this game have never even been to the Special Forces Training Area, let alone practiced a raid rotation in order to get better at doing it.

14 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Yes, and the Untamed Hammer damage IS OK on the golem. I didn't say "Untamed Hammer damage is the highest DPS in the game", I never said it was going to top out the DPS leaderboard. I said it was OK. It's right there in the title. People have been going on like it was doing literally zero damage but that is just not the case.

When talking about the golem training arena, there’s basically an unspoken assumption that any testing or observation done in them would be for a raid or fractal scenario. You wouldn’t go to the golem for an open world build because raw dps isn’t the main factor for that type of build, you won’t go for a PvP or WvW build because that is an entirely different environment than PvE. A person who doesn’t raid or do high end fractals doesn’t have any use for the golem training arena because the things tested and done there don’t really apply to them. So it would be assumed that any testing done there would be under the guise of a raid environment, so “most people” referring to raiders. Hitting 80% of a benchmark is a typically goal to show that you understand the rotation of the class you are playing and are able to execute it to a reasonable level.

In that same vein, the issue people have with your “Untamed Hammer damage is OK on the golem” statement is that the only situation where you want to look at golem dps is in raids and fractals. Open world, PvP, and WvW don’t care about your golem dps. As it is right now hammer and power Untamed are both doing horrendously bad damage. An Untamed running hammer would only be brought for damage and as it stands right now it is entirely unable to fulfill that role. That’s why people are upset about saying it’s damage is “OK” because the situations in which the golem dps testing applies it is far from okay.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

 

15 minutes ago, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

As the elite stands right now, the only situations it currently tries to work in is in small group fighting, such as center node in PvP or small group roaming in WvW, and that’s kinda it. Wanting an elite spec to be playable outside of very specific niches and scenarios in only 2/3 of the game modes is not something to write off. We’re getting a new elite for the first time in 4 years, and won’t get another one for at least another 2. There should be more impact an elite has than trying to give Rangers a new PvP or roaming build, areas where we already have competitive builds and options to work with. Even in PvE there’s still so many roles we cannot contribute to. We provide no boon support, referring to alacrity and quickness. Soulbeast works as a meta dps build, but power for example only has one damage profile: burst damage that requires you to stand still for long periods of time. Even just for damage there’s niches that Untamed *could* fill, such as sustained damage rather than burst, which it is entirely unable to do. Having to go 6+ years without a new dps playstyle while literally every other class does would be so unbelievable disrespectful and disappointing.

 

When talking about the golem training arena, there’s basically an unspoken assumption that any testing or observation done in them would be for a raid or fractal scenario. You wouldn’t go to the golem for an open world build because raw dps isn’t the main factor for that type of build, you won’t go for a PvP or WvW build because that is an entirely different environment than PvE. A person who doesn’t raid or do high end fractals doesn’t have any use for the golem training arena because the things tested and done there don’t really apply to them. So it would be assumed that any testing done there would be under the guise of a raid environment, so “most people” referring to raiders. Hitting 80% of a benchmark is a typically goal to show that you understand the rotation of the class you are playing and are able to execute it to a reasonable level.

In that same vein, the issue people have with your “Untamed Hammer damage is OK on the golem” statement is that the only situation where you want to look at golem dps is in raids and fractals. Open world, PvP, and WvW don’t care about your golem dps. As it is right now hammer and power Untamed are both doing horrendously bad damage. An Untamed running hammer would only be brought for damage and as it stands right now it is entirely unable to fulfill that role. That’s why people are upset about saying it’s damage is “OK” because the situations in which the golem dps testing applies it is far from okay.

Here's the thing. Untamed is locked in. They are not going to make any extremely dramatic changes to it's style at this point. I would have preferred it get many many things different, but here we are. I would have liked a spirit shaman with ground targeted AoE on the Hammer, no pet, but the pet choice changes the hammer skills depending on archetype. Then your F skills can be party support skills that summon ephemeral and ethereal Spirits of the Wild.  

We aint getting that. We aint getting boon support. They won't just hand that out to every class. I said this many times before, but if this is supposed to be a CC centric spec, then you can't expect the damage to be there either. That's just the way it goes. Yet, it is pretty good. It is certainly far better than Warrior Hammer and if you fulfill the conditionals, it is almost as good as the GS. I think the CDs need some shaving and there needs to be a few mobility skills and ones that interact with the pet too. 

But, I just can't see any point in creating another DPS spec. That's just a different combination of buttons to press to achieve the same end result. Where is the point in that?

How does one achieve sustained power DPS without also being Burst DPS? What is the point of sustained DPS when in any scenario that you may be in, is it not better to phase/kill things quickly? And how can it be sustained DPS if burst is the one that requires you to stand still for long periods of time? That makes no sense to me.

The reason I even tested it on the golem is that people in this sub forum were saying that the hammer did no damage. So I had to test the actual numbers for myself and it just didn't play out the way I expected or the way anyone was/is saying. 

[Puck.3697]

20 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Here's the thing. Untamed is locked in. They are not going to make any extremely dramatic changes to it's style at this point.

while true some fixs to the oversights would be perfectly fine realistically.

20 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

We aint getting that. We aint getting boon support. They won't just hand that out to every class. I said this many times before, but if this is supposed to be a CC centric spec, then you can't expect the damage to be there either.

but heres the fact, the Weapon is susposed to be CC Centric, not the Entire specc itself. u dont see Mesmer taking DPS Losses for having Tools it can use to CC it loses Damage when using the tools as it trades in DPS Options for CC we should be the same way, our pure DPS Specc shouldnt be using Hammer effectively, using hammer should be when we lose DPS to then gain CC options.

but CC Shouldnt be at the cost of 18k DPS. breaking a blue bar is standard. and LOADS of builds do 36-40k DPS While holding onto the same amount of CC Hammer gives ranger effectively.

20 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

That's just the way it goes. Yet, it is pretty good. It is certainly far better than Warrior Hammer and if you fulfill the conditionals, it is almost as good as the GS. I think the CDs need some shaving and there needs to be a few mobility skills and ones that interact with the pet too. 

but serves almost 0 purpose still. the Hammer doesnt offer that much CC Effectively.. it really isnt that high at all and its only avaliable when using Hammer, we're susposed to be a Pure DPS. ofcourse it should be competitive with other Pure DPS. maybe not while using hammer. but when using more DPS Orinated weapons.

20 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

The reason I even tested it on the golem is that people in this sub forum were saying that the hammer did no damage. So I had to test the actual numbers for myself and it just didn't play out the way I expected or the way anyone was/is saying. 

28k DPS on a Pure DPS is litterally no DPS comparitively to what is currently on the market. again. 28k DPS is Beneath the vast majority of DPS SPeccs

Retain this:

Boon Herald does 30k DPS using 1 utility skill and Auto attacking only, we're 2k DPS Behind a AFK Support Spec. like why do u feel this is reasonable?.. how can CC be the justification for us to do Less Damage then proffessions which output 3k Barrier per Second?.. Barrier is FAR more powerful then CC is effectively.

your taking words too litterally

What players are meaning by this, is this Specc is not viable comparitively to the other options its competes against.

Why use untamed instead of Soulbeast?

Why would u take a untamed over a scourge?

Why would u want a untamed and not a Dragonhunter

Why would u ask ur weaver to play untamed in this fight?

The answer to all above is effectively, you never would. when u can say your entire elite is basically redundent on day 1 theres serious problems. Untamed needs ALOT of help.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

14 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

...Untamed needs ALOT of help.

And hammer damage is really far down on that list.

[Puck.3697]

23 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

And hammer damage is really far down on that list.

 

how about this, Delete untamed.. Justt dont give ranger a New elite.. use the time they would spend fixing this on overhauling the pet system and Change up the buffs Soulbeast gets from them + a New UI.

It'll litterally benefit us better to have this instead, Deleting this Elite and Just giving us better Pet Systems is a MUCH Stronger and More hype concept.

Without hammer, this Elite is ltiterally Core Ranger with a F5 that Does Nothing, we get taxed 18k Damage Just to have CC.. to then have us Taxed Again for using the CC Ability itself. by locking us into a 0 DPS State at the same time as Putting our DPS Abilities on CDs.

Core Ranger will perform better then Untamed in SPVP.

Soulbeast will perform better then untamed in PvE.

Soulbeast will perform better then untamed in WvWvW.

It has 0 Place, no reason to exist.. and Nothing to excel at. its Double Taxed for having CC.. and has less CC then most other optinos while doing half the DPS.. Berserkers Standard DPS Build has Tons of CC In it.. so does Mesmers.

Why would u take a untamed into ur group for CC when it isnt even good at it.

a New Pet UI, new system, changes to our Pet Attacks and Soulbeasts attacks from them will be a Largert buff and More interesting introduction then Untameds gonna be. so just remove it. Dont give ranger a New elite

if ur gonna try Promite #UntamedisFineAsItIs.

Promote #NoneweliteforRanger

because these 2 things add up to the same thing. we'll either Never use it. Or it wont exist. both achieve the same results.. atleast out of deleting it we may get some valued changes to what we already have.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

18 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

well heres the problem. Lets break it down.

Hammer has 2 modes. DPS and CC, if u swap to CC Mode, u lose ALL DPS, ur abilities do no damage and your pet Loses all its Damaging abilities for More Control effects there also. which means for the entire period of this u lose 98% of your Damage.

but if u retain beign unleashed permanantly u are Susposed to be a Full DPS.

so Havent u paid the DPS Tax in that balancing factor?.. so should Hammer be far down on the list realistically?.. even if hammer did 45k DPS. ur DPS Would Nose dive duringthe period of time of using its CC Effects Because u cant access its CC without putting yourself on a CD. Locking u into 0 Dmg CC Based Abilities and Stirpping ur Pets capability to use its Abilities.

they built the DPS Loss directly into the kit. so why are we being taxed a Second time on Damage for this?... Theres no need to double dip into negatives to make up for a Small amount of CC Which shares CDs with the DPS Variants to begin with.

So if u just used ur rotation.. u litterally CANT CC WHEN NEEDED.

What about warrior? Why doesnt it equal Warrior. it has the SAME amount of CC as warriors do in their CC Builds.

I dont understand why ur fixated on trying to push against untamed being viable.

at the end of the day im already prepped to never use this specc

Core ranger is better in SPVP

Soulbeast is better in WvWvW open world content and PvE

That's not a problem. That's a good design that sticks with their ethos that you can't do big damage with CC.

When did they state that being Unleashed is "supposed" to be Full DPS? I never heard them state that. Are you just inferring that or is that what you believe it should be?

The CD on Unleash is the problem. There is no need for it to be 10s since the hammer skills share CDs. That said, if you make it zero, then you essentially have a weapon that does big damage with CC.

Yes, they built DPS loss directly into the kit, but for some reason people believe it should be doing massive DPS.

Again, the CD on Unleash is the problem.

I am not fixated on pushing against Untamed being viable. As it is right now, it is not. But the hammer damage is just not as bad as people are making out. It needs adjustment, yes, but there are far greater issues.

You have decided, based on a beta, that it is not worth using?

One spec will be better at sPvP and one spec will be better at PvE, this is always going to be the case. What Untamed needs is adjustment to make it better in one of them. Probably sPvP at this point.

[Puck.3697]

6 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

That's not a problem. That's a good design that sticks with their ethos that you can't do big damage with CC.

Double taxing isnt good design. their should be a Single Tax

Either the DPS IS Lower. or the weapons Restrained down to Create Damage Losses

The fact the hammer and unleashed share CDs means u cannot CC and Damage at the same time, it Actively prevents that happening, the fact the unleashed stances have a 10second CD on it. Increases the time periods Rangers are locked out of Damage abilities. to go on further, while the pets unleashed U lose all ur Pets base abilities (ur hardest hitting abilities) for 10seconds minimum ontop of this.

Thats your DPS Losses. thats the Trade off.

Ontop of that. innately nerfing the Damage of hammer to be 18k DPS below every other choice is Terrible.

Why do u struggle so much here?

you think Harbinger supplying boons while doing 40k+ DPS.

Specter Supply Instant Rezzs and Healing+Barrier while doing 40k+ DPS.

Firebrand supplying 100% Quickness uptime while doing 38k DPS.

Soulbeast able to Stance Share while doing 34k DPS.

Chronomancers Supplying LOADS of utility and CC while doing 42k DPS.

Bladesworn Supply banners + CC and doing 45k DPS.

Untamed Supplying 2 Lots of CC (equal to greatsword) Doing 28k DPS.

this Chart looks right to you?.. u think Untamed is balanced On the same factor as the rest?... do u just wish u to see the elite die in a hole?

CC is NOT important. lol, It breaks a Bar that ur in a Raid of 25 other people to break. its REALLY not got theweight on u beleive. it shouldnt even be counted Towards a DPS Loss. CC is relevant for like 10seconds of a boss fight lol. your putting too much weight on how powerful CC is. which is why your struggling to relate here.

Offensive Boons, Defensive Boons, Healing and barrier are ALL Far Stronger then CC and theres other choices which provide CC if not better CC while doing FAR more DPS.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

2 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Double taxing isnt good design. their should be a Single Tax

Either the DPS IS Lower. or the weapons Restrained down to Create Damage Losses

The fact the hammer and unleashed share CDs means u cannot CC and Damage at the same time, it Actively prevents that happening, the fact the unleashed stances have a 10second CD on it. Increases the time periods Rangers are locked out of Damage abilities. to go on further, while the pets unleashed U lose all ur Pets base abilities (ur hardest hitting abilities) for 10seconds minimum ontop of this.

Thats your DPS Losses. thats the Trade off.

Ontop of that. innately nerfing the Damage of hammer to be 18k DPS below every other choice is Terrible.

Why do u struggle so much here?

you think Harbinger supplying boons while doing 40k+ DPS.

Specter Supply Instant Rezzs and Healing+Barrier while doing 40k+ DPS.

Firebrand supplying 100% Quickness uptime while doing 38k DPS.

Soulbeast able to Stance Share while doing 34k DPS.

Chronomancers Supplying LOADS of utility and CC while doing 42k DPS.

Bladesworn Supply banners + CC and doing 45k DPS.

Untamed Supplying 2 Lots of CC (equal to greatsword) Doing 28k DPS.

this Chart looks right to you?.. u think Untamed is balanced On the same factor as the rest?... do u just wish u to see the elite die in a hole?

Again, the CD on Unleash is the problem.

All those specs should be nerfed. End of story.

How could you possibly think I believe Untamed is balanced? Did you actually read anything I wrote?

[Puck.3697]

8 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

One spec will be better at sPvP and one spec will be better at PvE, this is always going to be the case. What Untamed needs is adjustment to make it better in one of them. Probably sPvP at this point.

yes

Core Ranger SPVP

Soulbeast PvE + WvWvW

we already know lol.

9 minutes ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

You have decided, based on a beta, that it is not worth using?

if it does less damage then Soulbeast its Not worth using no Lmfao.

We can just take Rock Gazelle + Greatsword do 10k More DPS then untamed and do the same amount of CC. like seriously did u even test this Elite?... it has 2 Daze abilities on Delayed Animations and ur trying to justify a 18k DPS Loss for it

why cant you see.

U cant Release TWO Elites with the same CC and Same Role and have one do 10k More DPS then the other. like this is Ridiculous. Why would u use untamed above Soulbeast?

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

Just now, Daddy.8125 said:

yes

Core Ranger SPVP

Soulbeast PvE + WvWvW

we already know lol.

if it does less damage then Soulbeast its Not worth using no Lmfao.

We can just take Rock Gazelle + Greatsword do 10k More DPS then untamed and do the same amount of CC. like seriously did u even test this Elite?... it has 2 Daze abilities on Delayed Animations and ur trying to justify a 18k DPS Loss for it

why cant you see.

U cant Release TWO Elites with the same CC and Same Role and have one do 10k More DPS then the other. like this is Ridiculous. Why would u use untamed above Soulbeast?

Ok, so if it is better at sPvP than Core, what will Core be useful for? If it is better at DPS and WvW than Soulbeast, what is Soulbeast useful for?

[Puck.3697]

Just now, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Again, the CD on Unleash is the problem.

All those specs should be nerfed. End of story.

How could you possibly think I believe Untamed is balanced? Did you actually read anything I wrote?

Unleashed CD wont fix anything. Because the abilities Share CDs

U wanna remove a 10second CD to stare at the 16 Second CD behind the 10 second CD or u forget these abilities Share CDs also?, ur Double CD locked With unleashed Abilities. also are u forgetting the Unleashed Hammer variant is SUSPOSED TO BE A PURE DPS WEAPON?!

its TWO DAZES. its EQUAL tro SOULBEAST IN CC CAPABILITY. the only thing this specc has that soulbeast doesnt is Access to increased Damage to CC'd Targets, which holds 0 Use in PvE and the Specc doesnt have enough CC in PvP to make use of the traits.